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Author Topic: Pentastar Alignment Megathread  (Read 71226 times)

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July 10, 2014, 02:35:45 PMReply #40

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2014, 02:35:45 PM »
With all sides played I defo like PA most. It's most balanced of all, without possibility to spam fighters. I love EoH for obvious reason, but after initial problems with keeping the line when I get access to Furions, there is nothing AI can do to defeat me. Too easy.

What I would like to see is a tiny bit of variety in ships for PA. Tector in Era 4 and 5. Perhaps build-able Executor at Era 5.

As for planets. Bastion should really become a Bastion. It's just normal planet without anything special in space.

The PA never built executors like the ir. They already have possibly the most diverse unit list in space.

I sort of agree about Bastion but it already has build slots for 4 golans(two IIs and two IIIs respectively)  and a medium shipyard.  If you add in that kaine, jerec and grant spawn there and you build a hypervelocity gun Bastion is right up there with Kuat, Fondor, Dathomir, Bilbringi, Mon Calamiri and Yaga Minor on fortress level. Also has good ground defense and loyal population,  theres really not much mote you could add to it
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July 11, 2014, 02:23:22 PMReply #41

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2014, 02:23:22 PM »
Hmm I understand your point of view, but two reason why they didn't built them were lack of time and resources. It's simple logic, not rigid "canon". If PA hold 3/4 of the galaxy hostage (including Kuat) I think, I have plenty of time and resources to commence building program for at least one SSD or few Tectors, don't you agree.  ;)

Perhaps limit building SSD/Tector only to Kuat? All sides get really fun boats with each Era. PA is stuck with same gear from start to finish (not that it's useless gear, just lack improvements over Era 1).

July 11, 2014, 03:03:12 PMReply #42

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2014, 03:03:12 PM »
Well thats possible but how did Delvardus have the resources to build Night Hammer?  The PA had much more territoryand resources than him as well as Yaga Minor shipyard. I think they just never decided the ssds were feasible to mass produce so they never tried.
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July 11, 2014, 03:47:48 PMReply #43

Offline Vulcanus

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2014, 03:47:48 PM »
Well thats possible but how did Delvardus have the resources to build Night Hammer?  The PA had much more territoryand resources than him as well as Yaga Minor shipyard. I think they just never decided the ssds were feasible to mass produce so they never tried.


When did Delvardus start building the Night Hammer? He controlled the Sluis Van shipyards and a large stretch of the Rimma Trade Route, so he certainly had the financial and practical means to build the Night Hammer before he was forced to retreat to Deep Core.

Perhaps the fate of Delvardus shows why PA was better off building Enforcers instead of mass-producing Vengeance SSDs and Tectors. Delvardus got whacked by a bunch of Neb Bs and was forced to abandon his holdings, while the Alignment endured.

IMHO the biggest drawback of building SSDs or super-weapons is not the financial constraint, but the fact that they are vulnerable to sabotage and enemy raids before completion and thus tie up a large portion of your fleet and intelligence assets for the sole purpose of protecting the damn thing, reducing your strategic options and leaving other star systems inadequately defended.

July 11, 2014, 05:18:02 PMReply #44

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2014, 05:18:02 PM »
Same drawbacks for the Germans in WWII with their tanks. To long to build, too expensive and rresource intensive and unable to produce as many
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July 11, 2014, 08:57:27 PMReply #45

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2014, 08:57:27 PM »
Honestly, I LIKE the fact that the PA doesn't build SSD's.  It's nice to have a couple to help counter the IR's, but I like that they can't build any.

I would love to see them get more  technology changes since they were still around in canon until Era 4 or 5 (can't remember which, but I know they still existed after Shadow Hand.).
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 08:59:09 PM by tlmiller »
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July 11, 2014, 08:59:25 PMReply #46

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2014, 08:59:25 PM »
With all sides played I defo like PA most. It's most balanced of all, without possibility to spam fighters. I love EoH for obvious reason, but after initial problems with keeping the line when I get access to Furions, there is nothing AI can do to defeat me. Too easy.

What I would like to see is a tiny bit of variety in ships for PA. Tector in Era 4 and 5. Perhaps build-able Executor at Era 5.

As for planets. Bastion should really become a Bastion. It's just normal planet without anything special in space.

Bastion's advantages are in its ground map. It can be defended in a way to overcome all but a serious invasion.

July 12, 2014, 07:23:18 PMReply #47

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2014, 07:23:18 PM »
Part of the problem with giving them new units as the eras go on was also that we can't remove units as the eras go one, since they can't have their own story scripts. Part of why I'm asking what units people don't use is that we can then remove the redundant roles, and try to give them new stuff as the eras go on without having a full bar from the start.

This, mind you, is without wanting to just copy-paste the Imperial unit list. If we were to just throw a bunch of the base IR units at them, you may as well just play the Remnant.

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-Space is very OP, from early to late Game:
well you get two SSD, and can make more and more Praetors
the Reaper is the SSD that you should start w/, and the Vengeance should be a buildable one;

Part of this is because their starting position is kind of tenuous, and they need it to be able to gain a foothold. Venators and VSDs make up a considerable part of their forces, and they aren't very powerful. Canonically, having Vengance be something you don't start with and have to instead build wouldn't work very well. We had to stretch the timeline forward to include it, since it was last seen about a year before the mod starts.  Also, considering they have so few heroes, making them have to build on would be a pretty considerable detriment.

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The Praetor is inferior to the Phalanx

This won't be true once the EotH gets the Vanguard/maybe Gilzean.

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can PA colors be a bit more bright, its a bit hard to see them on Galact Map

I can try playing around with it, but they're as dark as they are because they need to be distinguishable from the Empire of the Hand. We used to have another blue faction that was lighter, and it was really hard to tell which was which sometimes.

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Something that I'd point out is the fact that during the PA era, even before Kaine died, he was forced to allow non-Human beings to enlist in the Imperial Military -- something that had been arguably taboo. The PA couldn't afford to be picky since it drastically needed skilled beings to throw inside of armor and behind blasters. To reflect this fact, and the influence that such men as Thrawn and Paelleon had on the PA, I'd appreciate seeing a non-human PA infantry unit. There's a well known picture of a Talz in stormtrooper armor, dating supposedly from near the Fel Empire era, but is not far off from what would have been seen during the middle of the early PA era.

So maybe a non-human infantry unit (Talz or some other?) that is armed with normal blaster rifles but has increased health?

The PA already has both Enforcers and Stormtroopers, there's not really much other room there. There's also no specific species that would work.
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July 12, 2014, 09:21:27 PMReply #48

Offline Vulcanus

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2014, 09:21:27 PM »

I can try playing around with it, but they're as dark as they are because they need to be distinguishable from the Empire of the Hand. We used to have another blue faction that was lighter, and it was really hard to tell which was which sometimes.


While Pentastar galactic mode colors could indeed be a bit brighter, it works the opposite way in tactical battles: using a darker shade of blue makes many ground units less cartoonish and darker blue also meshes very nicely with star destroyer-gray in space.

July 13, 2014, 05:31:49 PMReply #49

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2014, 05:31:49 PM »
Logos I say!
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July 13, 2014, 09:48:47 PMReply #50

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2014, 09:48:47 PM »
Logos I say!

They would make it easier to identify them, although considering most of their space vessels make use of the "variant of xxx", not sure if it would be possible.
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July 14, 2014, 02:36:06 AMReply #51

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2014, 02:36:06 AM »
Possibly
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July 14, 2014, 02:47:10 AMReply #52

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2014, 02:47:10 AM »
It's possible, but it would mean every PA unit needs a separate model and texture.
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July 14, 2014, 05:47:02 AMReply #53

Offline Pali

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2014, 05:47:02 AM »
I actually like the idea of allowing the PA to build Executors in Era 5.  For one, the PA really didn't exist anymore by the point in the timeline that Era 5 reflects, so arguing as to what they had canonically doesn't really apply - had plot bunnies not been so prolific, they very well might have been building new SSDs by then (as has been mentioned, the Night Hammer was being built well before this).  For two, at this point in the game the main enemy for the PA is usually the NR, since era advances tend to coincide with IR losses - and the NR fleet at this point is, in my opinion, fairly superior to the PA's, and if the PA loses Jerec and Kaine it really can't compete that well in a large space battle (excepting AI flaws), given the Praetor's being relatively weak in the power-CP ratio and the NR's New Class ships and fighters.  The Era 5 NR fleet (and EotH fleet, now that I remember them) is absolutely capable of handling SSDs - giving them to the PA won't unbalance them, and would instead feel like a reward to PA players for managing to reach Era 5 in the bigger campaigns.

July 14, 2014, 09:43:48 AMReply #54

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2014, 09:43:48 AM »
It's possible, but it would mean every PA unit needs a separate model and texture.

Ah so more work?
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July 14, 2014, 02:41:38 PMReply #55

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2014, 02:41:38 PM »
I actually like the idea of allowing the PA to build Executors in Era 5.  For one, the PA really didn't exist anymore by the point in the timeline that Era 5 reflects, so arguing as to what they had canonically doesn't really apply - had plot bunnies not been so prolific, they very well might have been building new SSDs by then (as has been mentioned, the Night Hammer was being built well before this).  For two, at this point in the game the main enemy for the PA is usually the NR, since era advances tend to coincide with IR losses - and the NR fleet at this point is, in my opinion, fairly superior to the PA's, and if the PA loses Jerec and Kaine it really can't compete that well in a large space battle (excepting AI flaws), given the Praetor's being relatively weak in the power-CP ratio and the NR's New Class ships and fighters.  The Era 5 NR fleet (and EotH fleet, now that I remember them) is absolutely capable of handling SSDs - giving them to the PA won't unbalance them, and would instead feel like a reward to PA players for managing to reach Era 5 in the bigger campaigns.

While I agree in concept, the thing is if you're playing as the NR, the PA will probably have been wiped out by Era5 since it's kinda weak starting location.  If you're playing AS the PA, most likely you've conquered so much of the galaxy at this point that there'd be no REAL need for it.

Yes, I agree that since in canon they didn't even exist would make it so that they'd make some sense to have.  However, if we're going to give them an SSD, give them the ability to build a Sovereign IMO.  I like the looks better.
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July 14, 2014, 06:46:31 PMReply #56

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2014, 06:46:31 PM »
I actually like the idea of allowing the PA to build Executors in Era 5.

It would be a good idea. However, this is not possible. The PA can't have story scripts.

By the way, is that restriction only because the game engine can support three factions' worth of scripts, or something else?
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July 14, 2014, 07:42:26 PMReply #57

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2014, 07:42:26 PM »
LEt me just clarify here; there's a difference between tech level requirements to unlock a unit, and story scripts. Tech level requirements are done in the unit's code, so that's not a big deal. We can require any PA unit to be at whatever tech level we want, and since one of the things you can do in another faction's story script is set any faction's tech level, we're able to make them advance tech levels (we usually just piggyback them on the NR's story script, it's also how we get them to have the same intros as the other factions).

Story scripts are what you need to lock a unit, spawn a hero, remove a hero, and a bunch of other stuff I won't get into. Story scripts are set for each faction in the GC's code. They are attributed with these lines:

<Rebel_Story_Name>Conquests\ArtofWar\Story_Plots_Sandbox_56_Rebel_AI.xml</Rebel_Story_Name>
<Empire_Story_Name>Conquests\ArtofWar\Story_Plots_Sandbox_56_Empire.xml</Empire_Story_Name>
 <Underworld_Story_Name>Conquests\ArtofWar\Story_Plots_Sandbox_56_Underworld_AI.xml</Underworld_Story_Name>

And there's no way around that. It's potentially possible to piggyback even more on the other factions with some form of a LUA script to do the other stuff, but that's pretty unlikely.
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July 15, 2014, 10:38:18 AMReply #58

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2014, 10:38:18 AM »
Hi all, my name is Adorician, and I'm a PA addict.  No, seriously.  PA is my absolute, hands down favorite faction in this mod.

I really don't feel that any units need to be removed, as I can simply choose to not build them.  I think it would be better to just leave the lesser-used units in the game for those who like them.

As other people have said, the PA is a very well balanced faction, and I really don't see a huge area for improvement.  But there a few things that do come to mind.

1. It would be really, really nice if the AT-AA's *weren't* one of the PA's slowest ground units, or if the PA had a faster unit with AA capability that wasn't a glass cannon when going up against air units.

2. I have felt at times that having all of the PA's space and ground units potentially available in era 1 can be a bit of a weakness, as the other factions get new (and at times better) units every era, while PA players are forced to adapt using increasingly outdated units.  So naturally, I like the idea of being able to scoop up the cast-off projects of the IR as the eras advance.  Or perhaps there would be a way to implement the tech steal function that some of the factions have in the base game, but limit it to a few uses, or even types of units as well?  That way, PA players can get new units that could shake up or reinforce their play style, while at the same time forcing them to be smart about it?

4. The last thing on my wish list may not be feasible, but hey, why not say it.  There are plenty of times in the canon (I guess we need to say "Star Wars: Legends continuity" now... still pisses me off) where factions capture capital ships of other factions, i.e. Booster Terrek and Rogue Squadron capturing the Errant Venture, the NR capturing the Lusankya, the Rebellion taking the Tyrant (aka Rebel Dream), which was then retaken by the IR, until it was again captured by the NR...  I can go on.  I'd love to see a feature implemented across all factions where you can capture (permanently, unless captured by another faction) enemy ships, and maybe even ground units.  Obviously, this would need to be an ability that is either very expensive or has a very long CD, to prevent people from doing nothing but capturing enemy units.

This would answer all of the "PA doesn't have enough SSD's" complaints, and would negate the need for adding new PA units, as you can just capture them.  However, I realize that this would result in a significant amount of work, and is probably not feasible.  I can dream, can't I?

Lastly, PA survival mode.  Please?  Pretty please?

Edit: would also be nice if PA showed up in those faction summary graphs...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 12:42:00 PM by Adorician »

July 15, 2014, 07:10:51 PMReply #59

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Re: Pentastar Alignment Megathread
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2014, 07:10:51 PM »
I really don't feel that any units need to be removed, as I can simply choose to not build them.  I think it would be better to just leave the lesser-used units in the game for those who like them.

2. I have felt at times that having all of the PA's space and ground units potentially available in era 1 can be a bit of a weakness, as the other factions get new (and at times better) units every era, while PA players are forced to adapt using increasingly outdated units.  So naturally, I like the idea of being able to scoop up the cast-off projects of the IR as the eras advance.

That's why I brought up the notion of removing certain less-useful units. People never like it when stuff gets cut, but like I said, we can't remove anything as they progress because of engine limitations, so any units we did give them as they progress would just get forced off the build bar, so room has to be made.

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Or perhaps there would be a way to implement the tech steal function that some of the factions have in the base game, but limit it to a few uses, or even types of units as well?  That way, PA players can get new units that could shake up or reinforce their play style, while at the same time forcing them to be smart about it?

Ingame, this wouldn't really make sense; why would the Pentastar have a different metric for progression than the other factions? They wouldn't need to steal schematics like the Rebels did (which gets especially weird when they're doing it from the NR or EotH primarily, as their usual neighbours). It would even give them progression in non-progressive GCs.The issue with their progression isn't finding a way to do it, it's what to actually give them. Slicing tech stuff doesn't give you any control over what they can get where, so it's not really forcing you to be smart about anything. You can just immediately go to any of the nearest enemy planets and unlock whatever design you want.

Technically, they're the most problematic faction for this to be done for, since I'm not sure if the basic mechanics would even work for a fourth faction, and it really only works with story scripting in the first place. Also, keep in mind heroes don't respawn in the mod, which is an issue considering that slicing kills them.

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4. The last thing on my wish list may not be feasible, but hey, why not say it.  There are plenty of times in the canon (I guess we need to say "Star Wars: Legends continuity" now... still pisses me off) where factions capture capital ships of other factions, i.e. Booster Terrek and Rogue Squadron capturing the Errant Venture, the NR capturing the Lusankya, the Rebellion taking the Tyrant (aka Rebel Dream), which was then retaken by the IR, until it was again captured by the NR...  I can go on.  I'd love to see a feature implemented across all factions where you can capture (permanently, unless captured by another faction) enemy ships, and maybe even ground units.  Obviously, this would need to be an ability that is either very expensive or has a very long CD, to prevent people from doing nothing but capturing enemy units.

This would again go more towards finding a different way for them to progress without actually solving the issue of what to give them as they progress. We're specifically looking to not make them just a dumping ground for units already available to the other factions, and this is pretty much the exact opposite of that, since their means of staying relevant would just be taking ships from the other factions. As far as feasiblility in the engine, it really isn't. You can convert units to a different faction through LUA scripting, but the game can only pass one variable from a battle to the galaxy map (meaning it can be used at most once) and there would have to be an aspect of story scripting to it, which cannot be done with the Pentastar Alignment.

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Lastly, PA survival mode.  Please?  Pretty please?

Probably in the next version. We have to make sure it can actually work.

Edit: would also be nice if PA showed up in those faction summary graphs...

Those graphs are unfortunately hardcoded. We can't change them.
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