Pentastar Alignment Megathread

[gerfand]

Not the case.  In space, if anything, the PA is the least overpowered.  The Praetor is inferior to the Phalanx and the IR also gets the Praetor in Era3, and SSD's in almost every other Era.  The EoTH fighters/bombers are also superior for the most part to the PA fighter/bombers.  And the NR is far, far superior.  Yes, the PA is powerful with the Praetors, but NR can easily counter a Praetor + IPV's.  It's all down to unit selection.  Yeah, if you send all Quasar carriers, the Praetor + IPV's is going to eat it.  But a few BAC's + Sacheens + MC90, and the IPV's get shredded by the BAC's which have enough shielding to withstand the short time within range of the Praetor, then they retreat being MUCH faster than the Praetor while all the bombers bend the Praetor over the table and make it cry like a little girl that just dropped her ice cream cone on the ground.

But, most of the times you will go agains PA in first or second era, so you will not have the MC-90 to throw at them...
the problem w/ Praetors are:
-Their huge range... for a "dreadnought"(good weapons and shields)... so you can "kite" the enemy(especially AI), because it cost is very balanced
-AI can spawn they... of course for a multiplayer this would not be really a Problem!

[gerfand]

I can try playing around with it, but they're as dark as they are because they need to be distinguishable from the Empire of the Hand. We used to have another blue faction that was lighter, and it was really hard to tell which was which sometimes.

and if you put a very light blue for one and a "Basic Blue" for the other.

[rumiks1]

only thing i hate about the pa is you cant make fighters like the tie hunter why not? you should be able to make some fighters especially to counter nr and the eoth i wonder tho i asked Corey if he will add shadow droids but i guess they go to the ir not the pa

[Pali]

While I agree in concept, the thing is if you're playing as the NR, the PA will probably have been wiped out by Era5 since it's kinda weak starting location.  If you're playing AS the PA, most likely you've conquered so much of the galaxy at this point that there'd be no REAL need for it.

Yes, I agree that since in canon they didn't even exist would make it so that they'd make some sense to have.  However, if we're going to give them an SSD, give them the ability to build a Sovereign IMO.  I like the looks better.

My current ICW game as the NR disagrees with you.   Granted, I'm not in Era 5 yet, but the IR's been the focus of most of my efforts, since the PA's got fewer routes into my territory and I've got them heavily fortified and holding the PA at bay (killed Jerec on the ground, Kaine's always had too strong a fleet with him).  I'm in Era 3 currently, and the PA's got plenty of planets - we're somewhat splitting the IR between us, it seems.

And since nobody ever builds any Sovereigns outside of Shadow Hand, I tend to think that the plans were lost after that campaign... but I also don't mind the idea that a resurgent PA might have found them again. 

[Lord Xizer]

The PA is weak to start off but if you fortify and use your SSDs and fleets defensively after taking Bilbringi, Ciutric, Ithor, Ord Mantell and Generis you can make bastion of defence

[tlmiller]

The PA is weak to start off but if you fortify and use your SSDs and fleets defensively after taking Bilbringi, Ciutric, Ithor, Ord Mantell and Generis you can make bastion of defence

Very true, and probably the strategy almost all of us use.  However, the AI rarely does, so it's surprising to see the AI survive as the PA.  Most of the time in my experience the AI as the PA doesn't survive long.

[Carnivore Jacques]

Bastions can be useful but does the PA need two?

E:

Sometimes as the IR I take down Zsinj and the Corporate Sector really early (I like to live dangerously). This creates a buffer between the PA and NR, maintaining a balance of power that is critical for an easy win.

[Phunnyphil]

I think the IPV-1 is too small. it's so small, in fact, that it becomes hard to see in the middle of combat. On many occasion, I have trouble even finding the thing in some space battles. And since the IPV-1 is the only anti-fighter frigate the Alignment has, that's a real problem for me.

[Mat8876]

If your having trouble finding them just CTRL + A which selects all units (not structures) in the battle and as long as they haven't been killed they will be in with the rest of your fleet.

[Phunnyphil]

If your having trouble finding them just CTRL + A which selects all units (not structures) in the battle and as long as they haven't been killed they will be in with the rest of your fleet.

I did not know that! Thanks a lot, man; that's really helpful!

[J]

In my honest opinion the pentastar alignment needs so more fire power on land every battle with them ends in a sluaghter

[tlmiller]

In my honest opinion the pentastar alignment needs so more fire power on land every battle with them ends in a sluaghter

Huh?  Pentastar is easily the most powerful of the factions on land.

A9 Floating Fortress offers good armor with the ping ability so you can call bombing strikes
Hailfire is the most versatile artillery unit since it doesn't require deploying/stowing
AT-AT is the AT-AT
IFT-X is FAST, great for quick strikes
Century Tank is super cheap, and good against a whole host of units, decimating infantry but with it's light turbolaser also being useful against armor
Dark Jedi are super fast, can run around capturing reinforcement points easily
Laat/i are fairly quick, and deliver a pretty good punch

Their greatest strength is on the land.  IMO, if anything, they're slightly overpowered compared to the IR and NR, although the EoTH is a VERY good match for them.

[Revanchist]

Huh?  Pentastar is easily the most powerful of the factions on land.

A9 Floating Fortress offers good armor with the ping ability so you can call bombing strikes
Hailfire is the most versatile artillery unit since it doesn't require deploying/stowing
AT-AT is the AT-AT
IFT-X is FAST, great for quick strikes
Century Tank is super cheap, and good against a whole host of units, decimating infantry but with it's light turbolaser also being useful against armor
Dark Jedi are super fast, can run around capturing reinforcement points easily
Laat/i are fairly quick, and deliver a pretty good punch

Their greatest strength is on the land.  IMO, if anything, they're slightly overpowered compared to the IR and NR, although the EoTH is a VERY good match for them.

Definitely agree here. The PA if used properly is ridiculously easy on land. If you're having trouble with them, a good starting list is as follows: drop in either Storm Commandos or Dark Jedi first, and send them to capture RPs. With your population points bring in these units in this order: Hailfire, Floating Fortress, Infantry, LAAT/i, Hailfire, IFT-X, Infantry, infantry, infantry. This is the "brute force" method of PA plays that is heavily infantry dependent. The only units you should be losing in these confrontations is infantry. As you figure out how to use the "PA Core" of Hailfire, LAAT/i, Floating Fortress to prevent uneccessary casualties, start replacing infantry with TIE Crawlers, and cut out the second load of Hailfires (replace with either LAAT, Century or IFT-X depending on the circumstances).

[Zangdar]

I think a good way to make the PA more distinctive from the IR would be to make their ISDs different from the IR's, as well as other units they have in common with other factions.

That would probably require a lot of xml editing, but it seems justified as each faction has its own philosophy of war. They may have some of  the same ships, but those are not included in the same fleets or used in the same way, and that could transpire in gameplay. In addition, the PA being already reusing old Clone Wars ships and pirates ones, them having customized Imperial destroyers doesn't seem out of place in my opinion.

In do not know much about their original differences in canon, but a few examples might be : fleets made to raid enemy planets rather than occupying them, resulting in faster engines leaving space for smaller shield generators ; less seasoned crews but newer turbolasers, thus less shots fired per second but more powerful ones ;  etc.

That way, there is no need to change the tech trees or models, but they become more of a faction of their own and less of a mix of other factions.

[Vulcanus]

I think a good way to make the PA more distinctive from the IR would be to make their ISDs different from the IR's, as well as other units they have in common with other factions.

That would probably require a lot of xml editing, but it seems justified as each faction has its own philosophy of war. They may have some of  the same ships, but those are not included in the same fleets or used in the same way, and that could transpire in gameplay. In addition, the PA being already reusing old Clone Wars ships and pirates ones, them having customized Imperial destroyers doesn't seem out of place in my opinion.

In do not know much about their original differences in canon, but a few examples might be : fleets made to raid enemy planets rather than occupying them, resulting in faster engines leaving space for smaller shield generators ; less seasoned crews but newer turbolasers, thus less shots fired per second but more powerful ones ;  etc.

That way, there is no need to change the tech trees or models, but they become more of a faction of their own and less of a mix of other factions.

Matter of fact, I've personally added a Pentastar-specific ISD variant that replaces the ISD I in addition to ISD II being restricted to Core and Mid Rim shipyards only. The new Pentastar ISD comes with some ISD I characteristics, mainly the ion cannon complement, but upgrades the main guns to octuples. However, they also have the same poor shield refresh value that my ISD IIs have(not the Thrawn's Revenge ISD IIs) from selling out on firepower over shields. The result is an ISD that is considerably more powerful as an anti-capital destroyer than either of the standard ISD models, but due to ion cannons and poor shield refresh value is seriously vulnerable to frigate and torpedo-heavy fleet compositions and can't really stand for long in prolonged combat.

Note that in-universe the Alignment was playing catch-up to mainstream Empire and NR in military build-up and was very possibly placed under military-equipment embargo by both. Thus ISD upgrades would have been hard to achieve for Pentastar Alignment and it makes sense for them to come up with a makeshift solution.

[tlmiller]

Matter of fact, I've personally added a Pentastar-specific ISD variant that replaces the ISD I in addition to ISD II being restricted to Core and Mid Rim shipyards only. The new Pentastar ISD comes with some ISD I characteristics, mainly the ion cannon complement, but upgrades the main guns to octuples. However, they also have the same poor shield refresh value that my ISD IIs have(not the Thrawn's Revenge ISD IIs) from selling out on firepower over shields. The result is an ISD that is considerably more powerful as an anti-capital destroyer than either of the standard ISD models, but due to ion cannons and poor shield refresh value is seriously vulnerable to frigate and torpedo-heavy fleet compositions and can't really stand for long in prolonged combat.

Note that in-universe the Alignment was playing catch-up to mainstream Empire and NR in military build-up and was very possibly placed under military-equipment embargo by both. Thus ISD upgrades would have been hard to achieve for Pentastar Alignment and it makes sense for them to come up with a makeshift solution.

IMO, the problem with that is that the PA ships WERE IR ships until Kaine declared neutrality.  They were normal ships of the line for the Empire until the formation of the Alignment.  While having them be so "generic" might not make them feel different, IMO, they SHOULDN'T feel drastically different.  Since other than being located in an area that mostly got older technology due to it being of less strategic importance, they were normal imperial vessels.

[Corey]

Note that in-universe the Alignment was playing catch-up to mainstream Empire and NR in military build-up and was very possibly placed under military-equipment embargo by both.

I don't think this is actually true. The NR and PA just ignored each other most of the time, and their relationship with most of the other Imperial leaders was fine. They were on pretty even footing, and definitely "friendly" terms with most other Imperial groups. Definitely not under any sort of embargo, considering they were allied with/contributed to Thrawn's Confederation and were an integral part of Palpatine's navy. After reunification, they were probably the only significant group of Imperials left, hence why the "Imperial Remnant" after Daala and Pellaeon reformed it, centered around Pentastar Territory, and why the former Pentastar flagship was taken as the flagship of the entire reunited Imperial navy.

I think a good way to make the PA more distinctive from the IR would be to make their ISDs different from the IR's, as well as other units they have in common with other factions.

There's a few very significant things I think you're misunderstanding about the purpose the Pentastar Alignment serves, both in game and in canon. The reason the Pentastar Alignment looks and feels like the Empire to some extent is because they ARE the Empire. The Imperial Remnant and Pentastar Alignment are two sides of the same coin. By all rights, they could and to some extent should have the exact same unit list, but the canonical Imperial ship and vehicle rosters are so extensive that ingame we can only put so many of them, so we decided that ships which would more commonly be found on the outer rim should be put with the PA, whereas more regular ships would be focused on the "Imperial Remnant"

This is exactly why this is false:

them having customized Imperial destroyers doesn't seem out of place in my opinion.

They had the exact same ships pulled from the exact same fleet as the Empire because they ARE the Empire. They weren't raiders, they didn't rely on hit and run tactics. Again if we were to represent everything perfectly, their ship rosters would be pretty much identical. There is one instance where they did make a custom version of an Imperial design, when they built the Enforcer-class variant of the Vindicator/Immobilizer line. However, they did not and would not have made a new version of the ISD. Those ISDs, like I said, became the core of the reunited Imperial fleet. The Imperial Remnant you're playing as in Eras 3, 4, and 5? That's pretty much 30, 50 and 75% Pentastar, respectively. IT would be very much out of place.


Although we've given them a few points of difference in how they play compared to the "Imperial Remnant," mainly based around fighters, in order to have at least some differences their main role in the game is to be another Imperial splinter faction to represent the deep divides in the Empire and to fill that sector of space as politically accurately as possible. Before we put in the Alignment as its own thing, it was filled with more Warlord planets, usually. If you were able to have multiple instances of the same faction in EaW like you can in Sins, they would (along with the Warlords) just be grouped as part of and spawned as another instance of the Imperial Remnant faction, exactly how we're handling it in Ascendancy. If you look at any place we've explained why we're not doing the PA in Ascendancy, we've said exactly this. Faction differentiation as far as military playstyles go is meant to be a thing between Imperials, the New Republic, and the Empire of the Hand. In Imperial Civil War, Imperials includes the Imperial Remnant, the Warlords and Pentastar Alignment, since they're in different places and to do that we needed to have different faction entires. In Ascendancy, Imperials just means the Imperial Remnant which represents the Ruling Council (the best term I can think of to refer to what ICW call's the "Imperial Remnant"), the Pentastar Alignment, Warlord Zsinj, Greater Maldrood, the Eriadu Authority, the Deep Core Warlords, etc because they're not tied to specific heroes or planet ownershipss like factions in EaW, and those are the two areas where these factions are significantly different.


TL;DR

The Pentastar Alignment feels like the Empire because it is the Empire, and that's how it should be. They exist as an entity because part of the goal of the Galactic Conquest mode is to represent and allow you to play through how the Star Wars galaxy was divided, much like a Total War game, and for that to be possible, you need to have a separately coded faction. We took that as an opportunity to explore more of the in-universe Empire's ridiculously expansive unit list, and divided that based on a few themes in order to give them some differences, not because they actually followed different military philosophies. Their ISDs are the same because they have no reason to be different, and the ISDs you used as the Remnant in the later eras are already the exact same ISDs as you use as the PA (meaning the specific instances, not just the class)

[Pali]

Honestly, I don't think the PA needs anything added to feel different from the IR - in every GC I've played as them, it's a very different game.  Your fleet compositions are different (limited SSDs, frigate/carrier complement very different), your armies are different (greater emphasis on air power and mobility rather than pure firepower), and your starting strategic situation is different (easily defended yet economically weak vs open from all sides but very rich).  They feel exactly like they should - an Imperial splinter group.

[Vulcanus]

Some real nice points raised here, folks. Certainly swayed my mind on the ISD issue (even though a ISD I/II crossover is still a real nice ship to use).

Of course, the Pentastar Alignment in-game is not the same as the one in-universe, as the mod Alignment is highly expansionist unless you decide to turtle with them, so I could see them being more isolated if we are going by ICW political situation rather than the one in-universe.

[Zangdar]

I agree with Vulcanus here. I did not mean to cross a line, as said in my post I am not well aware of the differences between the factions in canon and my examples were not meant to be adequate with reality, but only to point out some of the things that could be done to redefine the PA as an autonomous in-game faction.
I only know the Extended Universe thanks to you guys and this mod, not the other way around...

But as far as previous posts are concerned, I think most people agree that in-game balance is quite fine as is. So either it is about making the PA in-game feel different from the IR, in which case my suggestion could work without the need for new units and models (although treated differently than my misguided examples, I'll admit), either it is about how the existing factions are handled without changing their nature.
With the latter, when you play the as PA you can actually decide what to do with them strategy-wise, the mod allows plenty of schemes on that matter ; but as for AI, I'm not sure what can be done considering the vanilla's game flaws and limited gestion interface...