The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)

[Slornie]

With regards the treatment of Luke in TLJ and Hamill's evolving thoughts on the matter, it turns out that story arc actually comes from Lucas' own treatment for episode VII before Disney bought in and hired JJ Abrams.  Haters gonna hate but it came from the world builder himself!  Our Only Look at George Lucas’ Vision for the ‘Star Wars’ Sequel Trilogy

The entire space battle makes very little sense and honestly the Dreadnought didn't seem remotely threatening considering the level of ease it was dealt with. Poe's plan exposed the fleet with lack of star fighter cover.

Agreed. This was one of the worst parts of the movie for me (fortunately it got better later).  However it does demonstrate, once again, that over-confidence common to many Imperial officers, going all the way back to Tarkin and Admiral Motti in ANH.

Funny how a bowcaster bolt kills Stormtroopers in armor hurling them several feet but barely phases an unarmored teen with no knowledge it was about to hit him. That entire scene can be summed up in shitty plot armor, so don't go on about kylo's wound taking a toll on him when he's just apparently not very good at what he does next to mary sue.  Rey is somehow a better fighter than both kylo and Luke in spit eof having far less experience in lightsaber combat, is magically stronger than both of them with far more control than either at that age or stage of training. Again there's tapping into the Force and then using the force like a lvl 20 Wizard in D7D with zero negatives.

Hang on now. You can't arbitrarily ignore plot points you don't like and then use it's absence to claim Rey is a "mary sue".  Kylo's significant injuries prior to his fight with Rey, which are clearly shown on screen, have huge bearing on how that was conducted.  For most of the fight his weakened state is the only reason she was able to stay in the game, until that moment when she opened to the Force and let it guide her actions.  And Force-augmented reactions has often been shown as one of the most common manifestations even in the untrained (see Anakin's podracing).

TLJ shows clearly the huge disparity between Rey and Kylo's combat skill in the throne room scene against the royal guard.  For every single guard Rey took on, Kylo was fighting three at once.  And at no point was Rey superior to Luke during their sparring; he disarmed or blocked her moves multiple times before she summoned the lightsaber (a sign of frustration?).

[Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus]

And Force-augmented reactions has often been shown as one of the most common manifestations even in the untrained (see Anakin's podracing).

But hasn't Anakin podraced many times before the race we see in TPM? I thought it was specifically stated that he had experience in it. And Sebulba treats him as a rival, meaning that they faced each other before. So much so that he even sabotages Anakin's vehicle before the race, which is something you would do only to someone who's skill you are wary of.

[Slornie]

From Phantom Menace:

ANAKIN : Have you ever seen a Podrace?
QUI-GON : They have Podracing on Malastare. Very fast, very dangerous.
ANAKIN : I'm the only human who can do it.

SHMI looks askance at her son.

ANAKIN : (Cont'd) Mom, what? I'm not bragging. It's true. Watto says he's never heard of a human doing it.
QUI-GON : You must have Jedi reflexes if you race Pods.

And then later Qui-Gon tests Anakin's blood for midichlorians affinity to the Force.

There's also this bit:

KITSTER : (to Anakin) This is so wizard! I'm sure you'll do it this time, Annie.
PADME : Do what?
KITSTER : Finish the race, of course!
PADME : You've never won a race?
ANAKIN : Well...not exactly...
PADME : Not even finished?!

[Pali]

Forever the cynic, I would like to point out that Hamill is probably only changing his tune because Disney is probably up his arse for his original denouncement of his character.

There is zero evidence of this, and it isn't even necessary: the movie is doing just fine at the box office regardless of what Hamill says for or against it.

[Lord Xizer]

There is zero evidence of this, and it isn't even necessary: the movie is doing just fine at the box office regardless of what Hamill says for or against it.

Of course it is. It didn't have any major titles to compete against, it's the holiday season and it's been easily established that people will go watch something with a familiar title whether it is decent or paltry. There is a fairly high drop off rate though in it's second week and beyond.

[Illidan Stormrage]

Oh and Poe is subconsciously using the force to be a good pilot? Now I dislike him even more, nice. Wedge was a great pilot (not that OT gives him any screen time) and he had no force.
So far the best thing to come out of the new trilogy is Saturday Night Live's Undercover Boss with Kylo Ren.

While i agree that the SNL undercover boss thing is amazing i say that best thing to come out of this trilogy is the fact we have new movies.

Also really? Dude they have explained this before. Everyone has access to the force. It flows through every being (well almost if we talk legends) and while some people don't tap into it like Luke, Rey, Kylo, or Vader, it still can impact them. Remember when Han Solo and obi Wan were arguing about luck? That was the whole point of that. People can used the force, but the force manifests itself in different ways for people. For instance, Wedge, Poe, and Han Solo are great pilots, but the point is made that since any living being can tap into the force, but it isn't like they can mind trick pilots into suiciding. The force guides their destinys and how they are as people. That is why the Rebellion always says may the force be with you. However i will point out that some people are just inherently stronger adept in the force, like Kylo Ren, or Rey. That is just how the force works. The force works in mysterious ways and i like it when it mysterious.



AS FOR THE MYSTERY OF SHIRTLESS KYLO REN!
I still cant find a answer. Maybe our Emperor Corey can answer for us? OH GREAT COREY! We call upon you for the answer to the question.

[Pali]

Of course it is. It didn't have any major titles to compete against, it's the holiday season and it's been easily established that people will go watch something with a familiar title whether it is decent or paltry. There is a fairly high drop off rate though in it's second week and beyond.

There is always a drop off after the opening weekend.  It is still the top grossing film of the year, and this does not at all dispute my contention that there is zero evidence that Disney is pressuring Hamill or others regarding what they say about it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/?yr=2017&p=.htm

[Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus]

There is always a drop off after the opening weekend.  It is still the top grossing film of the year, and this does not at all dispute my contention that there is zero evidence that Disney is pressuring Hamill or others regarding what they say about it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/?yr=2017&p=.htm

Sometimes you sound like you are a Disney employee, lol. All companies who own rights of big film franchises would protect the secrecy surrounding their films, as well as the films' reputations, prior to, or shortly after release, and regardless of the box office success or critical acclaim. It's absolutely safe to assume that Hamill was at the very least politely notified to not undermine the film in interviews, etc., considering how prominently he was doing it ever since the first trailer for TLJ was released.

[Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus]

From Phantom Menace:
And then later Qui-Gon tests Anakin's blood for midichlorians affinity to the Force.

There's also this bit:

I have totally forgotten the second part, lol. It makes no sense whatso-fucking-ever that Sebulba would then sabotage his pod, when it's clearly overkill to someone who is yet to finish a race. But it's the Phantom Menace we are talking about here, a brilliantly written film, so I shouldn't really be taken aback by the inconsistencies, should I.

[Pali]

Sometimes you sound like you are a Disney employee, lol. All companies who own rights of big film franchises would protect the secrecy surrounding their films, as well as the films' reputations, prior to, or shortly after release, and regardless of the box office success or critical acclaim. It's absolutely safe to assume that Hamill was at the very least politely notified to not undermine the film in interviews, etc., considering how prominently he was doing it ever since the first trailer for TLJ was released.

There is a difference between being politely notified of a request to shut up from marketing (and if he's not violating an NDA a request is all they could give) and being "up his arse" on the subject to the point that he's being effectively forced to retract and revise previously stated opinions.  Any such issues would have been handled long before release since, as you say, he'd been vocal about his take for some time - now, over a week after release, is the least useful time for Disney to try to come down hard on him.

Frankly, I find this take somewhat insulting of Hamill - he's not in a position where he needs to worry about staying in Disney's good graces, so why assume he'd just buckle under and play their game rather than be honest with his own opinion?

[Illidan Stormrage]

I would honestly like to drop the whole Mark Hamil thing, because it has been talk to death. MY only final comment is that this is almost identical to Harrison Ford being pissed they didn't kill of Han Solo.
Now i actually want to talk about the movie.

so i saw TLJ again
and i still think its a solid movie, and seeing it a second time makes me appreate it more
Rewatching it made me realize a few things
1. Phasma won tha fight and she only was "killed" because Finn somehow landed on a elavator.
2. That secene with Luke staring down the FO was badass
3. Yeah.... Poe and Rey did have something happen there... it was clear. I will stand by and say these two have chemistry. CHALLENGE ME IF YOU DARE!
4. Poe did abosultely nothing wrong( i will defend this point to the fucking end)
5. Kylo is a more likeable villian.
6. Rey is defintely not a Mary Sue. Ben Solo was taking on three guards while she was having trouble with one
7. Poe Dameron is a badass.
8. I like the ressitance more than the FO
9. I for once am rooting for the rebel group in star wars

Hey, if Rey and Kylo want to have a naked Force chat, I'm all for it. I'd guess it was to avoid any charges of over-sexualizing a character - consider the backlash the film would've received had a Force chat begun while Rey was topless, whether the audience can see anything taboo or not, for treating her as a sex object.  There's a bit more leeway with sexualizing male characters these days, and the "this is uncomfortable, can you put on a shirt?" joke wouldn't have worked as well in reverse.

Funny you mention it. Carrie Fisher, Oscar Isac, John Boyega, and Daisy Ridley in a interview with some talk show (this was before TFA released) a had some funny coments on that. Carrie Fisher states to Daisy Ridley that she will end up with people having masterbation fantansies and various "other things" It is rather entertaining because it is true. Slave Leia literally turned Leia into more of sex object then she already was. Trust me though it will only get worse overtime

The most likely reasons are either:
A: Adam Driver wasnt fully on board with showing his abbs.
B: The makeup to make the big scar where Kylo was shot would take time.
C: They just didnt care.

[Pali]

Funny you mention it. Carrie Fisher, Oscar Isac, John Boyega, and Daisy Ridley in a interview with some talk show (this was before TFA released) a had some funny coments on that. Carrie Fisher states to Daisy Ridley that she will end up with people having masterbation fantansies and various "other things" It is rather entertaining because it is true. Slave Leia literally turned Leia into more of sex object then she already was. Trust me though it will only get worse overtime

In truth, this is a warning that should probably be given to most actors/actresses, especially those that are in the upper percentiles when it comes to physical attractiveness - good-looking famous people of any gender are going to end up being the subject of crushes no matter how they are presented to audiences.  Even many who aren't considered conventionally attractive will have to deal with such to a lesser degree simply because fame and talent are attractive in their own rights (though this group will also have to deal with a significant amount of body shaming, as will any past/current hotties who stop being considered hotties eventually, like Carrie Fisher, and that degradation of status over time also should be warned of).  Anyone looking to enter a career that puts them in the limelight is going to need to be prepared for the entire range of reactions to their physical appearance - it's definitely arguable that they shouldn't have to be, but the reality is they do need to be; we humans are a superficial sort in many ways.

[turtle225]

3. Yeah.... Poe and Rey did have something happen there... it was clear. I will stand by and say these two have chemistry. CHALLENGE ME IF YOU DARE!
4. Poe did abosultely nothing wrong( i will defend this point to the fucking end)
6. Rey is defintely not a Mary Sue. Ben Solo was taking on three guards while she was having trouble with one
7. Poe Dameron is a badass.

Rey is definitely still a Mary Sue. She shouldn't be able to fight the guards (who have probably trained for years), period. And she doesn't actually struggle in the fight until the last guard, which is also when Kylo is struggling with his last guard because of the rule of drama.

I also really dislike Poe, sure he's a badass I guess but that's really his entire character. He's overly reckless and an amazing pilot and he always wins, the end. Saying he did nothing wrong is a bit silly since he blatantly disobeys orders and gets most of the fighters killed. I'm with him for going against Holdo later but that entire plot line is trash anyway.

[Illidan Stormrage]

Rey is definitely still a Mary Sue. She shouldn't be able to fight the guards (who have probably trained for years), period. And she doesn't actually struggle in the fight until the last guard, which is also when Kylo is struggling with his last guard because of the rule of drama.

I also really dislike Poe, sure he's a badass I guess but that's really his entire character. He's overly reckless and an amazing pilot and he always wins, the end. Saying he did nothing wrong is a bit silly since he blatantly disobeys orders and gets most of the fighters killed. I'm with him for going against Holdo later but that entire plot line is trash anyway.

Rey got the massive cut on her arm from one of the elite guard. Rey only killed the guard because she dropped her Light saber and then grabbed it and slice the guard twice. Keep in mind for every 1 guard Rey killed Ben Solo killed 3. Also Rey character arc is that she is a nobody becoming a something. As stated in TLJ guide she was just a scavenger, who had a stick she used to fight with, spent time climbing through wreak ships and she also used some old Imperial flight training simulators. Snoke's guards have almost no information other than that they were trained in a basic combat, but were given tough armor and weapons.

Also if Poe didn't attack that dreadnaught then the Raddus would have been bombed by those canons and the FO still would have caught them useing hyperspace tracking. Theroricattly the FO Dreadnaught would have followed the fleet and engaged them. THe sacrfice was worth it, those people gave there lives so that ship couldnt fuck up the Ressitance. Keep in mind Poe Went on a suicide mission where he could have died so the bombers had a chance.

People respected him for thar descicion because it was smart and it cost the FO another good officer who understood what the rebels were trying to do.(they are stuck with morons like HUX and KYLO)
I will admit though it was cool seeing rebels shoot at each other just my Opionion.

[GreyStar]

I’m not even going to address the dozen old EU nitpicks from the first part of the post (all of the cloaking devices in old EU were destroyed and hyperspacing tracking could be done by an R2D2 unit, there), or really anything else.

I’m just going to say that I’m glad this movie got rid of all of Episode 7’s “mystery box” crap with Rey’s parents and Snoke to turn Rey and Kylo into actually decent characters. I argue Rey is a mary sue in TFA (the title doesn’t help), but in TLJ she has actual difficulties doing what she needs to do, and there’s a struggle. The outcome is more or less predetermined, but it’s a good story never the less with her.

Oh and Kylo Ren isn’t as ridiculous in this movie, so I’m happy with that.

On the other hand, TLJ has probably ruined the overall trilogy in some way. I’m not sure how, but when 9 comes out and well, I don’t put much stock in JJ, it’ll probably be like 8 never happened and thus we get a really awkward overall sequel trilogy.

Actually, on second thought, there’s three things from the first page I wanted to address. Turtle225’s points.

1. Kylo still idolizing Darth Vader. To give two rather basic examples, in the real world, people still idolize leaders who betrayed their own causes at the very end. Plenty of people root for Darth Vader despite his apperances as Anakin Skywalker in the prequels and his redemption at the end of RotJ. They admire a ruthless, ordered rule. We even had a thread debating Galatic Empire terrorism versus Galatic New Republic terrorism, and plenty of people chose the Empire. But this is fictional, and so some could ignore it. However, Neo Nazis still hold up the Third Reich as a perfect world, and idolize Hilter despite A. Him being of Jewish descent (a hypocrsisy not unlike worshiping Vader as a Sith). B. Him commiting suicide and failing his goals in the end due to paranioa and madness effectively strangulating his ability to reason.
2. Rebuilding the Rebellion from a dozen people on the Falcon. To give a more low key example, in America there have been plenty of people who came from nothing, created a company, lost it all, and rebuilt the organization themselves to suceed on the second try. There have been others who never suceeded on that second try due to huge amounts of debt, but it is possible to rebuild an organization out of nearly nothing.
3. Luke’s instinct leading him to strike down Ben. Yes an utter bastardization of Luke Skywalker from Episode 6, but you have to keep a few things in mind. Luke saw all the evil Vader and Sidious had done to the galaxy, blowing up planets, killing families, slaughtering not only Luke’s friends in the Rebellion, but his mentor, his family, and his sister’s home planet. In every way of his life, Luke was defined by the evil of the Sith. So when he saw a possible future where Ben continued that same dark legacy, his instinct goaded him into doing whatever was nessecary to prevent it. The same instinct Palpatine goaded him into using in RotJ to open him up to the dark side. He resisted, of course, just as he did in Episode6, but it did have consquence, just like how in Episode 6 it left him open to the dark side.

[Illidan Stormrage]

People on the discord apparently are really sympathetic with the FO which confuses and alarms me.
one person said:
They went to bring back order and stabillity and prop up the economy if their planets, have a population that loves their leadership and an army that believes in the cause and is extremely valuable and well trained
Now how they behave to everyone else that opposes them thats another matter
But in a galaxy of quadrillions killing a million people is like killing one person on earth(edited)
So the ones that say the first order is genociding everyone think of how many lives were saved by destroying hosnian prime instead of conventionally invading the new republic
Its like if the US could force japan to surrender with a few nukes before they started fighting on the pacific, saving millions of lives. Ending the war with only some thousands of casualties on the other side and you having 0 causalties. People would love you for it lol
The empire was cruel when it didnt need to and extremely corrupted. The first order is what the empire should have been
The citizens of the first order must have the best standard of life in the galaxy lol.

The elite there never had. In the original trilogy alderaan was considered one of the obly planets in the galaxy where most of its citizens lived a good life
Thats from the leia novel. That means the rest werent like that. Im not saying they werent advanced, just that for every rich person you see in the core world, there are 10 poor
The first order in the phasma novel states that it makes sure there is no major inequality and all its citizens are mostly equal in quality of life
Also about being inept, the first order hasnt lost any battle on screen as far as i know other than the battle for starkiller base, where they were winning and obly lost because the whole planet exploded.

Sure in the last jedi they made mistakes, but as the visual dictionary states, that was only the small first wave in the assautl with many more coming, and even with these mistakes which are nothing compared to the bigger picture ( a galaxy wide assault winning on all fronts) they managed to win in the end.

Hux looked like a fool in the last jedi but in the novels he is a mastermind. And even in the movie he still won at the end

[Lord Xizer]

There is always a drop off after the opening weekend.  It is still the top grossing film of the year, and this does not at all dispute my contention that there is zero evidence that Disney is pressuring Hamill or others regarding what they say about it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/?yr=2017&p=.htm

Right, the guy only comes out and says he flat out disagreed with the direction of the character and had to pretend he was playing someone else, but then magically after people start massively putting that up after a few days I'm sure his newfound praise for the film, you'll notice he still never says he agrees with the character change itself, only that it's for the story to be pushed out of the comfort zone that is good. I'm SURE Disney didn't have anything to do with that considering it owns two broadcast companies and has ties to a lot of the voice acting business that Hamill is actually most known for. I'm absolutely positive that they didn't put one tiny bit of pressure on him to to praise their new cash cow.

And as to your earlier comment, i didn't arbitrarily pick plot points on Mary Sue Rey, never been off Jakku since borderline infancy/VERY early childhood, somehow speaks Wookie, can fix the Falcon before Han, can FLY the Falcon all by herself when she's never even FLOWN before, annihilates Ren by just sort of 'hmm Imma focus now on force stuff' therefore win, does a perfect mind trick with zero training, and for all your talk of Ren being on another level in this film it's not even remotely close to the truth the fact she has some basic self taught staff training and about a week with Luke and she's disarming the most powerful jedi Master in the galaxy, ninja turtling Red guards and her 'struggles' are usually about 30 seconds of mild frustration followed by just getting it. Rey's not a character, she's a bloody macguffin designed to appeal to the female demographic. Which again is unfortunate because Daisy Ridley is a great actress whose talents are not used by this writing. Kinda like what they did to Gwendoline Christie in TFA and this film. It's very frustrating because I like the actors/actresses and they deliver strong performances, but the writing is beyond shit man, I'm talking last season Game of Thrones level of phoned in.

You have characters who routinely contradict the very establishment and development they went through in prior films like Luke contemplating murdering his sleeping nephew over something he hadn't even done, then running away to a nearly 20 odd year pity party without trying to fix anything as well as utterly nonsensical forced conflict with Poe and the vice admiral purely over her withholding information for no reason just to FORCE conflict. The film clearly wants to pander to nostalgia but also wants to be shocking and nuanced while not realizing these goals contradict each other. You can't hearken back to the feel of characters from the OT while simultaneously having them not act like those characters due to their nonsensical actions(leia NOT trying to find Luke in the Force in spite of their bond, nor trying to bring her son back, Luke contemplating murder for possible darkside when he went through hell to try and redeem his dad because he sensed a little good, Han ditching Leia for nearly 20 years and Chewie being absolutely cool with it. Then you have build up with zero pay off, Snoke has no real point to the film for what he contributes plot wise, The First Order can bombard things from Space...but needs a laser battering ram, Fenn is built up to be this torn character who hates fighting, but seems to have zero issue with killing his former stormtrooper comrades, Phasma, I mean shit, you have gwendoline christie's acting talents and a very interesting build up of her and Fenn..and it ultimately leads to nothing of substance, you've got Leia dues ex machina when her death could have had very great potential for Ben's character, speaking of which Ben's entire Dark Side turn an basically be attributed to waking up and seeing the good guy considering murdering him, something Luke would never do even as a youth, much less as an older and more wise man. Then Fenn's attempted big sacrifice, countered by his (gf, friend, associate?) undercuts the point of him willing to sacrifice himself for his new friends...by her trying to sacrifice herself for him to prevent him from sacrificing himself for them because her reasons...were different in her eyes.
This is what happens when you have bad writing, your characters contradict themselves and their motivations and have to adapt to the plot instead of the plot adapting to the actions of characters driving it. It badly hurts the film which has good performances from the actors/actresses, decent effects and soundtrack.
It's very similar to what Game of Thrones has become, all spectacle and no substance. Are the actions scenes cool? Yes, but so was the fight between Batman and Superman in that otherwise very forced and badly written movie. That's what I'm getting at, something shouldn't get a free pass because it's SW or any title, pointing out flaws in a film and having that opinion out there is vital to progressing film. I don't want a fancy SW, I want an original and creative one with a lot of actual effort going into the writing and consistency. I want the charisma of the new cast to get the writing and plot they deserve and we as fans also deserve. I don't want Disney to just make a film to grab quick cash, I want them to tug on heartstrings, to dare to go beyond the cliche Imp v Reb, I want Disney to actually use it's vast resource3s to give all SW fans the film they deserve.
It's like seeing people happy to eat crumbs off the floor when on the table is a full sandwich, I want people to have that sandwich!

[Pali]

Right, the guy only comes out and says he flat out disagreed with the direction of the character and had to pretend he was playing someone else, but then magically after people start massively putting that up after a few days I'm sure his newfound praise for the film, you'll notice he still never says he agrees with the character change itself, only that it's for the story to be pushed out of the comfort zone that is good. I'm SURE Disney didn't have anything to do with that considering it owns two broadcast companies and has ties to a lot of the voice acting business that Hamill is actually most known for. I'm absolutely positive that they didn't put one tiny bit of pressure on him to to praise their new cash cow.

Your sarcasm aside, the facts remain that there is not actual evidence of any pressure being brought to bear, merely supposition; that Hamill is a guy who is going to be capable of finding work just fine regardless of what Disney thinks of him (were it Ridley or Boyega this would be very different); and that you apparently think he'd be willing to bow to such pressure.  Personally, I've got a higher opinion of Hamill than that.

The rest of your post is ground already tread half a dozen times over in this thread, and I'm done repeating myself.  You hated the movie?  Fair enough.  I saw it again last night and liked it even more than I did the first time, and I'd be quite satisfied with more just like it in ep. IX.

[Illidan Stormrage]

Guys no offense but can we serious stop beating a dead horse? I want to actually talk about things in the movie like the force, or the Resistance. I know we are all very divided on the film, but can we stop talking about the whole Mark Hamli thing? I want to actually focus on the plot and what this could mean for episode 9.

For instance let me start the conversation:
Is it me or does Rey and Poe's look at each make it really obiovus something is going on between them. I mean Rey did basically tell Ben Solo at the end to "Fuck off" so maybe now she is looking for compiaonship and since Finn is with another girl and in TFA novelization she says Poe is really really Handsome then i think it is obvious where they are going. Then again JJ could just fuck up this important point.

[Pali]

I'm totally fine with a Rey/Poe relationship, and I'm somewhat expecting something to happen there just from their introduction at the end of TLJ - it reeked of "nice to meet you, sexy awesome person I've only heard good things about" from both sides.  I don't know that such a relationship is really needed for either of their characters, though, and it's always possible that it will be badly handled, so if they're going to do it they need to make sure it feels right - especially if they go the route of having us come into ep. IX with them already together, rather than letting us see the start of the relationship.

edit: And my last word on the Mark Hamill discussion is simply his own words:



Anyone who wants to call Hamill a liar is free to do so, but I'm done arguing the topic.