Thrawn's Revenge

Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Pali on December 20, 2017, 05:04:21 AM

Title: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 20, 2017, 05:04:21 AM
So, since we should have somewhere that we can discuss the newest entry to the saga openly, I figured I'd get the ball rolling.  I seem to be in somewhat of a minority opinion here in that I very much enjoyed the new movie, and I figured I'd break down why to get things started.  So, in my opinion based on a single viewing (future viewings may alter these opinions)...

The great:
-The entire scene with Snoke, Rey, Ren, and the Red Guards from start to finish
-Luke projecting himself to the salt planet
-Yoda
-The hyperspace ram - one of the most beautiful shots in all of Star Wars
-Rey and Ren being connected and their conversations
-Poe prank calling Hux was fucking AWESOME
-The acting of all the main characters - everyone gave their A-game here and it showed
-FUCKING SHIELDS ON SHIPS EXIST AND WE SEE THEM!

The good:
-Finn's suicide charge as he finally finds something he can willingly devote himself to (alongside the utter failure of the falling-apart speeders vs top-line military vehicles) - though I'm torn on whether or not I think he should've been allowed to die trying, as that would've been a very powerful moment but would also have left the character feeling somewhat short-changed in my mind; if he'd died there I know I'd have come out having wanted more of him and disappointed (not sad, disappointed) that there wouldn't be, and I think that'd have been the wrong last feeling to leave me with regarding him
-Poe's arc as he learns that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor
-Rose was adorable
-Chewie and the porgies (or whatever they're called) was hilarious and adorable
-Luke's arc as Rey and Yoda remind him that utter failure isn't always the end
-Leia showing she's got some Force tricks up her sleeves too
-Rey coming to define her own place in things rather than still asking for someone else to tell her what it is, and accepting the mantle of a new sort of post-Jedi force user (though this could've been a bit better handled, I still really liked how she was done here, particularly the apparent fact that her parents were nobodies; I hated all theories that she was the child of someone super important, and I really hope they don't backtrack on this one in Ep. IX because not everything has to be about the fucking Skywalkers)
-Hux starting to draw his blaster before Ren wakes up and clearly resisting Ren assuming the Supreme Leader mantle - lots of ground to grow there in Ep. IX
-I really liked that Del Toro's character was NOT a scoundrel-with-a-heart-of-gold; he was just a scoundrel, and had the movie tried to redeem him in the short time we had with him it would've felt forced.  Han coming back after everything in ANH worked - Del Toro's character turning good would not have

The meh, could be better:
-The Rose-Finn romance didn't feel earned, but then again, not everyone expresses affection the same way, and Rose definitely geeked out enough on meeting Finn and showed enough social anxiety issues that I can somewhat buy a fangirl thinking she's in love with a personal hero she finally spends some time with
-Snoke could've used a fair bit more characterization before being killed off, but I suspect he was always intended as a red herring of sorts, and that the whole point of the character was to lead us to expect a Vader-turning-on-the-Emperor moment of redemption for Kylo Ren; instead we got a dark side apprentice legitimately killing his master to seize the mantle rather than to change sides - and in truth, it's not like the original trilogy gave us any deep character work for the Emperor either
-The casino planet storyline I actually didn't mind all that much, but it didn't mesh with the rest of the film well, and what it achieved I think could've been achieved through other means.  It got Rose and Finn on the Mega SD so they could participate in the climax, it gave them an adventure together so the Rose-Finn pairing didn't feel entirely fake, and it built on the kind of nuanced look at the galactic wars introduced during the prequels and Clone Wars series: that there are people who benefit greatly from this struggle without sharing any of the risks, and that want the wars to never end because they keep lining the pockets of profiteers, and that the wars don't just happen purely because ideologically-opposed beings can't find a middle-ground.  Instead, they often happen in no small part because many have a vested interest in keeping the fighting happening.  This is good stuff, but I don't think it was handled as well as it could have been by any stretch, and this was the only part of the movie that I felt dragged.
-Much as I liked the hyperspace ram, it should've been Ackbar as the admiral in charge of the suicide run, not some lady I'd never seen before
-BB-8 felt somewhat underutilized to me - I enjoyed every moment with him still, but he didn't quite live up to the charm he had in TFA
-I understand the point of the end scene with the kid on the planet symbolizing a new Rose, a new hope, a new rebellion/resistance to the harshness of the galaxy, but it still felt somewhat tacked on to me

The bad:
-The bomber run against the dreadnought - despite what many will think, yes, a ship under powered flight above a planet CAN just drop bombs that way assuming that down for the bomber points close-to-directly at the planet (once detached from the ship the bombs will still be accelerated "down" by gravity while the ship's own acceleration will keep it on a "straight" path, leaving the bombs to "fall" relative to the ship), but it felt wrong nonetheless and I'd have greatly preferred it to feel more like a battle in space without gravity playing any apparent role
-Leia surviving being blown out into space.  Yes, this contradicts one of my goods above, but I think showing Leia still had significant Force powers could have been achieved without squandering this PERFECT way to kill the character - Kylo deciding not to kill her and then her dying anyway because of an attack he's a part of would have been a wonderful thing for him, and the audience, to go through.  There's a bit of hindsight at play here, as I suspect she was intended to die in Ep. IX and reality intervened, but damn it that would've been a great send-off
-edit: One more bad: Phasma.  There was some utility in terms of Finn's arc to have him face off against her, but it fell flat due to her lack of any characterization beyond "female loyal stormtrooper with mirrored armor".  The fight gave Finn an okay moment of personal victory against a symbol of the group that brainwashed and abused him, but it felt by-the-numbers; Finn's suicide charge did a far better job of making me feel that he'd truly devoted himself to defeating the First Order, not just escaping it, without once again failing to properly utilize a potentially badass minor villain who already was misused in the previous film.  If they bother to bring her back in Ep IX, they really need to do a far better job of it or Phasma will never feel like anything beyond Star Wars trying to monetize Brienne of Tarth's awesomeness without having earned the right to do so.

The ugly:
.........................................yeah, I got nothing for this category

The movie is by no means perfect, but I had a great time overall, with the casino planet being the only significant part that felt dragged-out and truly unnecessary to me.  Its apparent purposes were to connect Finn and Rose, which it didn't really succeed at, to introduce a reason for Finn to question the rationale behind the Resistance before he truly decides to devote himself to it anyways (which again, it didn't quite succeed at), and to get Finn and Rose onto the Mega SD, which could've been done a bajillion other ways without half the hoops to jump through.  But Del Toro was fun to see, and I really liked that he wasn't a "hidden good guy" character but instead was quite sincerely a mercenary for hire, and I liked Rose and Finn so I didn't mind joining them for a quick if somewhat unnecessary and absurd adventure.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 20, 2017, 01:33:14 PM
Welp, here's my take.

The good:
-The Snoke/Rey/Ren/Guards scene yes, I agree. But it leaves us with some problems I'll get to. It was also too blatantly a rip on episode 6.
-The acting.
-Shields on ships but only sometimes? Poe has no problems blowing up a dozen guns at the start with only his lasers.
-Chewie and the porgies was the only humor I liked.
-R2D2 and Luke's scene.
-Rey's parents are nobody, it isn't cliché and I like it. I'm actually surprised by how many people are upset about this.
-Despite how pointless Finn is in this movie, he is the only of the main three that I liked and he is the only one who developed well.
-Shooting Luke with the At-At's instead of being cliché and fighting him one on one.
-Luke's line about how Rey expects him to defeat the First Order by himself with a laser sword.

The bad:
-Poe prank calling Hux. It you want to be positive it makes Poe look clever. If you want to be negative it makes a joke of Hux, you know, a major villain we are supposed to be afraid of.
-Poe can fight a dreadnought by himself. A dreadnought only has 10 lasers apparently and no shields. It gets destroyed by one bomber.
-In 25 years, the resistance/rebellion/republic (who even knows) has replaced their Y-Wings and B-Wings with hot air balloons and somehow expect to ever destroy anything.
-Leia tells Poe not to attack the Dreadnought and fall back. Poe disagrees and the entire fighter/bomber fleet follows him? Shouldn't they be listening to Leia or is everybody as trigger happy/insubordinate as Poe?
-The fighter fleet is too cock-eyed and smug prior to the engagement on what is an insubordinate suicide run. Compare to episode 4 which is much more serious.
-The final bomber somehow survives for 100 years when the rest of the fleet was destroyed so easily. Rose's sister thing was far too drawn out.
-Hyperspace tracking is new technology? Since when? The books established that you can make educated guesses on where people are going when they hyperspace out based on their vector and astronomy.
-Finn knows where the tracker is because he used to mop the decks? When exactly because I thought he was mopping Star Killer base. I guess janitors get around to all of the new tech. Snoke doesn't even apparently know about the tracker.
-The rebel flagship powers rear shields but leaves the bridge exposed when they are under fighter attack? Is Ackbar that stupid? No.
-The First Order blows up the abandoned rebel ships instead of taking the free hardware. Only explanation is that they are afraid of traps but everybody in this movie is so dumb that they would never do that.
-Kylo/Rey's force connection, Luke's force projection, Yoda showing up. This is a nitpick from the books, these things should not be possible.
-What happened to the Knights of Ren? Why was Kylo obsessed with Vader in 7? Johnson doesn't know or seem to care.
-How were they planning on destroying the battering ram/cannon with speeders that apparently don't even have guns?
-Negating Finn's heroic sacrifice. Either let him do it or don't have the scene at all. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too and it made the whole thing feel extremely contrived. It also weakens Poe's development because he orders the team to pull back because it won't work, yet Finn makes it through anyway. Then Finn and Rose kiss in front of all of the At-At's and Finn drags her back without getting captured?
-The giant door is the only way into the resistance bunker... right? Oh wait there are entrances from the trenches that the soldiers are fighting from.
-Why is their a land assault on the bunker? "No prisoners, kill them all." They opened the movie by bombarding the rebel base from orbit, why not do that here? What is even the point of the soldiers in the trenches? They are literally just fodder with no chance to doing damage to anything.
-Rose's character. Sorry, I didn't like her and she felt very forced. She also falls in love with Finn in like eight hours.
-Snoke is dead. As much as I liked the scene in the moment it really leaves 9 in a bad place. Kylo the brat is now the supreme ruler and main villain? Really lame. He gets tricked by Kylo even though he KNEW that Kylo was conflicted. I would have liked an epic battle with Kylo/Rey vs Snoke but rip that dream. Snoke had all this build up to be super strong and yet he dies like a ***** before he does anything or we learn anything about him. It is a waste on par with Darth Maul.
-NO WORLD BUILDING: I'm really upset about this. At the end of 7, the first order takes a huge blow with the loss of Star Killer base and the Republic loses their capital, but in 8 apparently the resistance is on the brink of defeat and the First Order controls the galaxy?  This was a major problem in 7 and it persists. What is the First Order, where did it come from? Who is Snoke? Why is the Republic/Rebellion/Resistance/Whatever still fighting for control of the galaxy? What the bloody heck happened in the last 25 years?
-Leia: "We have all that we need here" Because apparently the resistance didn't need those 1000s of people that probably died over the course of the movie. A dozen people in the Falcon will suffice.
-No autopilot function? Holdo and others have to stay behind and sacrifice themselves because apparently they forgot how autopilot works. I do like your idea of Ackbar doing the suicide run though, that would have been great.
-Hyperspace ram destroys the entire First Order Fleet. No.
-Turbolaser shots picking off small transport ships with perfect accuracy.
-Rey gets basically no training from Luke, yet she has no problem fighting the red guards (who are definitely trained) or lifting a bunch of rocks. She is as much of a Mary Sue in this movie as the last.
-BB8 the rolling deus ex machina can do anything. Heroes are in a bind? No problem BB8 will show up and save the day. Leia was right "we have all we need here." As long as they have BB8 how can they lose?
-Weak Villains: Snoke is built up but then wasted, Phasma is totally wasted. Kylo is a whiney brat. Hux is made out as a joke. The Red Guards are more interesting than these guys.
-Themes beaten over the head. Minor nitpick I guess, but it is nice when they are more subtle.

The ugly:
-Idiot Plot (A plot that occurs because character(s) are idiots): The First Order can't catch the rebel ships... really? They can't microjump forward (Poe just did this earlier)? Or how about you send a bunch of fighters because you know, Kylo singlehandedly wiped out the hangers, bridge, and the entire rebel fighter fleet. Sure you might lose a few fighters but since when has the empire cared?
-The resistance ships have no fuel... so what was their plan? They didn't even have enough fuel to reach the planet they were going for regardless of the First Order showing up.
-Idiot Plot: Holdo won't tell Poe the plan. WHY? Because we need the movie to last an hour longer. As such we get both Cantobight and a mutiny. These things would not have happened if Holdo just tells Poe the plan, but the writers needed Finn and Poe to have something to do because literally nothing is happening in the plot they wrote.
-Cantobight and the master code breaker. This is a major wasted subplot and waste of time. I don't like the idea of there being a "master code breaker" to begin with. The entire time on Cantobight was painful and they beat us over the head with their theme here. In the end the plan fails anyway soo great work team?
-Plot Hole: hyperspace=teleportation as far as time is concerned. This was a problem in 7 and R1 also. The new writers don't seem to understand that hyperspace travel takes TIME. The entire chase scene is about 6 to 8 hours yet Finn has time to fly to Cantobight, spend a bunch of time there and fly back? Rey can show up at the end from Luke's oasis?
-Plot Hole: Rey is on the island communicating with Kylo while the rebel fleet is being chased. The chase is 6 to 8 hours but we see multiple day/night cycles for Rey on the island. The only explanation is that Luke's planet has a stupid fast day/night cycle but that is convoluted.
-Leia: Cringe worthy. She should have died on the bridge. Also Poe lets her back into the ship and somehow they don't all get sucked out into vacuum? There was no airlock there.
-LUKE: Oh God Luke. Ruined. Leaves a map behind in 7 (main plot driver of 7) but then when Rey finds him he just tells her to shove off? If he went to the planet to die then why the heck did he leave behind a map? I couldn't buy into his desire to end the Jedi or his overall withdrawal because it is so fundamentally against his character. Even Mark Hamill has openly declared that he disagreed with Johnson's take on the character. This isn't the Luke we knew. They wanted him to be just like Yoda was in episode 5. His behavior and character are so wrong.
-Luke considers killing Kylo because he is showing dark side tendencies. NO.
-Luke's death. We all knew he would die, but I at least wanted it to be awesome. Instead he dies because he was old and used too much energy or something. I would have liked it a lot better if he died in the At-At's blasts AND THEN he tricked Kylo by lingering as a force ghost to buy the others more time.

I probably forgot some stuff and all of that is disorganized so sorry. But really I think a lot of the problems arise because the writers wanted to have and eat their cake.
-Kill Leia? No she's fine.
-Kill Finn? No we gotta save him.
-Luke is a hero? Yes but he isn't there and dies anyway.
-Luke is grumpy old man and won't train Rey? But Rey is apparently way stronger anyway.
-Kylo is conflicted? Yea but he's still apparently going to evil just cause. We still don't even know why he is evil. Did Han refuse to give him cookies when he was kid?

It seems like the writers weren't sure how to make the main characters relevant.
-The main plot is that the resistance is fleeing from the First Order. We use that as our baseline, and are basically stuck with this 8 hour window.
-Poe needs something to do... how about a mutiny? That's dramatic.
-Finn needs something to do... and a love triangle apparently, how about a convoluted subplot?
Rather than build a main plot that gives each hero something to do it was more like our heroes were stuck in a plot with nothing to do and they had to shoehorn in stuff to keep them relevant.

And finally a bunch of problems arise because of the disconnect between Abrams and Johnson. I didn't like 7 either but I thought if 8 built upon it then it would make it better. But clearly Johnson and Abrams are not on the same page. The New Jedi Order series is written by over 12 different people and yet all of those books connect and flow better than just two movies with different directors. I don't like Abrams either but I honestly think it would have been better with him at the helm. At least he would have built off of his own foundation. Probably.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 20, 2017, 06:33:14 PM
Not going to go through point by point, but I do have a few comments regarding your criticisms.

First, I was never on the "Rey is a Mary Sue" bandwagon - if she is, then so was Luke in ANH, so was Anakin in the prequels, and so were the Solo children and dozens of other Force-sensitives in the EU.  People being innately gifted because of Force powers, or manifesting powers without consciously trying to or without any training, is not something new in Star Wars stories.

Second, some technical bits: small ships being able to penetrate shields and hit the hull also has plenty of precedents - that's how X-wings could shoot the Death Star, how Han killed Zsinj.  This ability isn't consistently presented, but it's not new.  Bombers following a cocky fighter pilot against orders also isn't new - that's how Corran Horn and Warden Squadron bagged a Lancer in the first Rogue Squadron book.  The orbital bombardments the movie opened with were carried out by the dreadnought Poe helped destroy, which is why they couldn't be done at the end.  The hyperspace ram didn't destroy the whole fleet, just the SSD and ships behind it that were hit by debris moving at close to light speed; ships remained to launch the land attack.  Autopilot never works during dramatic moments in any franchise.  Small or not, transports moving on a near-straight line course are easy targets.  Hyperspace tracking doesn't appear anywhere in the EU that I can recall without having a tracking device on the ship being tracked - projecting courses and making educated guesses, yes, but the tracking here was a lot more precise and done without a bug on the tracked ship; regardless, it was very much new as far as the movies go, as getting into hyperspace in the movies had always been an escape.

Third, a lot of your criticisms can be equally applied to the original trilogy.  Where were the Empire's origins explained, or the Rebellion's, or the Emperor's past (or NAME even)?  New Force abilities are shown in every movie, why are the ones here a problem?  The Death Star can't just microjump around Yavin for a clear shot?  Travel times don't exist there either - Tatooine to Alderaan seems to take about ten minutes, Hoth to Bespin without a hyperdrive is fast enough that Fett has to tell the Empire to get there first rather than catch the Falcon in an open sublight intersystem transit that should take decades.  How long was Luke on Dagobah, and how does the time he spent training with Yoda match up to the seeming no time at all it takes the Falcon to make it to Cloud City?

Liking or disliking character arcs or portrayals is largely subjective, so I don't see much point in going into depth on them - you hated Luke's characterization and arc, I enjoyed both greatly.  You saw the fight as a rip-off of 6, I saw it as an intentional parallel and reversal of 6.  Holdo not explaining things to Poe made sense to me: you don't spread need-to-know information to people who don't need-to-know, especially when you're being tracked by means you don't understand (which could include a traitor or security leak of some sort), and there isn't a military on the planet (edit: meaning real life Earth) that allows a subordinate to demand explanations of orders the way Poe did.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 21, 2017, 06:07:41 AM
Since I did not think that TLJ was a completely worthless film, I wouldn't bash it as heavily as Turtle225 did, even though he did make a few points with which I agree. There were indeed a lot of strengths in it as a film, the problem is, in my opinion, that TLJ does not work as a Star Wars film specifically. For me, there are a lot of flaws and obvious mistakes in it which I can more or less ignore. Such as Luke disappearing along with his prosthetic hand, which should have remained on the ground where he vanished (this actually hints on another thing to which I'll come back later), Leia entering the "Raddus" where there is no airlock, the Resistance fleet not having enough fuel to get to Crait, regardless of the First Order's pursuit (two points which Turtle225 has pointed out in his post), ships apparently going at exactly the same speed during the chase, and despite the presence of hundreds of TIE Fighters at the First Order's disposal, which were incredibly effective the one time they utilized their fighter superiority, this tactic is abandoned altogether by the First Order afterwards, for reasons unknown. All of these errors are acceptable, because as Pali rightfully points out, most Star Wars films have similar errors, including those from the original trilogy.

Here, however, are several things that I do have trouble with, and those are the things that ruined this movie as part of the Star Wars universe and killed this sequel trilogy for me for good:
1. Snoke mentions Vader as someone for Kylo Ren to aspire to, which is idiotic, because for a Dark Side adept - Vader is the ultimate traitor and false idol. He didn't just kill Palpatine, he RETURNED TO THE LIGHT SIDE OF THE FORCE AND SAVED HIS SON. This wasn't an egotistical act, to kill your master and usurp his power, which is indeed how Sith have operated for centuries, and that's how the cycle of the Order of Two works - when the apprentice is powerful enough to betray and kill his master he does so, himself becoming the master and taking a new apprentice, thus continuing the cycle (Pali himself seems to be aware of this, by pointing out that Snoke's killing was legitimate, and mentions Vader, but for some reason is unfazed at the idiocy of Snoke comparing his apprentice to Vader openly three times in the film, clearly admiring Vader). Vader killed Palpatine only to save Luke, and by doing this he also essentially killed himself by exposing himself to Palpatine's force lightning. It's an altruistic gesture, one of ultimate sacrifice and love towards your family member. Something a true Sith will never forgive or forget. If I remember correctly, Mara Jade only ever mentions Vader in Heir to the Empire as a traitor (she was never a Sith, just a Dark Side user at the time, but that's the only concrete example of how Vader was remembered by Dark Side users post-RofJ that comes to mind right now). Again, Vader being Kylo's grandfather does indeed potentially inherit him with some Dark Side potential, possibly, I am not disputing that. Even Kylo idolizing his Sith relative himself is one thing, but his master (at the time) Snoke referring to Kylo as "a new Vader" is just insultingly stupid and makes no fucking sense whatsoever in the context of what the Dark Side of the Force represents in general. It just goes against the basic concepts of this universe, and you don't have to even be aware of the EU to be able to point this out.
2. The handling of Luke Skywalker in the film. As brilliant as Mark Hamill was in TLJ, the ultimate fate of his character in it has disappointed me to no end. Whether or nor he is portrayed as a depressed and hopeless former Jedi master isn't even the point of great concern for me, because I understood that regardless of this he will eventually take part in the action one way or the other, which to some extent he did. So I will only talk about his demise in the film, and not even in the context of the universe. It appears that the decision to kill him off was made in the last possible moment, which partially explains the vanishing of his prosthetic hand alongside him (it was obviously easier to just remove him digitally sitting on that rock this way, without adding an extra scene of his prosthetic hand clunking to the ground). It also appears that Mark Hamill himself wasn't told the fate of his character, and he only found out that he actually dies at the end at the premiere of the film, and if true, this is an absolutely horrible treatment of him. I'm not even sure Rian Johnson himself wished to kill off Luke, and rumor has it that it was Kathleen Kennedy who did. Different people might react to Luke's passing in this film differently, but for me personally this means zero excitement before the next film. The one reason I was excited to see TFA was the see Luke, Han and Leia again. After Han's death in TFA, and Luke's almost complete absence in it, and after being greatly disappointed and let down by every new character in the film, pretty much the only reasons for my slight excitement for TLJ was to see Leia and hopefully Luke this time. It happened, but now we know that neither of the three main characters from the original trilogy will be playing a substantial part in Episode 9 due to both the events of TLJ and real life intervening in a tragic way. We might get Leia's death scene through CGI and Luke being there as a force ghost, but for me this isn't enough to incite any excitement for Episode 9. I really have no reason to see that movie in theaters when it comes out, even though being a Star Wars fan I probably still will. Still, I already know that there would be nothing for me in that film, and it's depressing, to be honest.

And you know what, that's it. Those are the major issues I had in this film which made me question Disney's understanding of this franchise even further. Everything else in it was either good, or not surprising. The new main characters in the film did not impress me, or seem believable and/or compelling even in TFA, so nothing that happened to them was really of any interest to me anyway. This is a subjective thing though, so I will not attribute it to my overall view of the film, I understand that Rian Johnson had no choice but to work with these pathetic characters the great Jeffrey Jacob Abrams has written for TFA, so I will never put him to blame for them not working for me here as well as in TFA. This is just the stench that TFA has carried onto TLJ, and it was to be expected, with TLJ being its sequel. Some of Johnson's writing choices however I did find a bit weird, with Poe essentially being an unassuming minor villain of the film. If this sequel trilogy had any pretenses of even in-universe realism or logicality, Poe should be court-martialed immediately at the start of Episode 9 for all the Resistance enlisted personnel deaths he singlehandedly caused in this film (leading both the successful, but suicidal for everyone bar himself bomber attack on the dreadnought, and the failed speeder attack on the walkers, during which every participant except Finn, Rose and Poe himself is killed), as well as his coup attempt. The Canto Bight plot line in the film has already been critisized so heavily by even the few people who loved the film, so I won't jump on the bandwagon here, and funnily enough I also didn't have as much of a problem with it (mainly because I don't care for the new characters of this sequel trilogy anyway, and don't mind films with slower pace, and also due to the addition of the surprisingly interesting character of DJ, who despite being essentially just a selfish version of Han Solo works for me, and seems almost like the only character in the film who understands how the universe is supposed to work). The way how even the badly written characters in TFA are getting even worse in TLJ was painful to be forced to see again. Hux is even more of a caricature of an Imperial villain, although to me it seems like Rian Johnson just doesn't know what better use to make of someone as one-dimensional in the first place. Neither does he seem to know how to handle Phasma, but considering how absolutely pathetic that character is to begin with, I feel like almost praising Johnson for just throwing her out in the garbage bin disgracefully the way he did. That really was the only way for her to go, there's nothing good to be done with something that thinly written to begin with. In the universe where so many incredible Imperial villains exist (Thrawn, Pellaeon (not even a villain, but a great fucking character, and an Imperial), Isard, Daala, Zsinj, Kaine, Delvardus, Harrsk, the Teradocs, etc.) it's painful to be subjected to someone as humorously amateurish, pathetically unintimidating and downright stupid as Hux and Phasma. Speaking of humor, the humor in the film was incredibly over-the-top, and the only jokes that worked for me were the ones between Luke and Rey (and I didn't mind Luke wiping his shoulder smugly after the walkers scene and him throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder in the beginning), and every scene with the porgs, who somehow landed well with me, possibly because I immediately realized that they are non-CGI, but actually puppets, which was a nice reference to the original trilogy, as well as the puppet Yoda, btw. I did, however, expect the overload of humor after TFA, and also was warned about it before the film by some friends, so it didn't of course come as a surprise. And since I will be watching this movie in the theater again, I will actually try to relax and pretend to be a normie Star Wars fan, which won't be difficult considering how hard it is to take almost anything in this film seriously to begin with. But I will try to replace my sarcastic smile with a genuine (fake) one. I'll try to trick myself, is what I'm saying. That's the length one has to go to enjoy this film as a Star Wars fan.

A lot of things that I dislike about the film are very subjective to me, and do not contribute to the overall standing of the film. Such as the disinteristing characters of Rey, Kylo Ren, Finn, Poe Dameron, Snoke, etc. They were present in TFA, and their presence in this film was obvious, so it's not like anything could be done in this regard for me. Rian Johnson does, however, prove to be a better writer (as if there was ever a question, really, but still) than JJA, with some new characters in this film being an improvement over those introduced in TFA. Namely Amilyn Holdo and DJ, but I found Rose to be quite charming as well. Kylo Ren and Finn are also developed better here than in TFA, but it's difficult for me to call this a drastic improvement, since the characters are still boring, and there's simply not much Rian could have done to remedy that. And whatever he does, Kylo is just not an intimidating villain to me, especially in the universe where Jacen Solo exists. Finn is ok, but he was never a particularly interesting character to start with. Even Johnson seems to realize his uselessness by relegating him to the least important storyline of the film. As for Rey being just a Mary Sue, I agree with Pali that it's no different in its essence to Luke and Anakin, but it's still disappointing to me that nothing is done to change this narrative flaw so apparent in all of Star Wars - having an all-powerful protagonist for no apparent reason. Surely it can be done, no? Instead we have just gotten a female version of that boring premise. Doesn't make it better or more interesting though, does it? But again, this issue was apparent in TFA, so it's just me repeating myself again. However, I don't remember ever reviewing TFA, so maybe this opinion had to be voiced here.

Considering all of the rules and laws of this new simple and predictable Star Wars universe laid down by TFA, I knew that it's not quite possible for me to love TLJ wholeheartedly or even to take it in any way seriously, so I'm never going to say that I expected greatness from it. Hell no, I just wanted to have a good time as a Star Wars fan, even being ready to ignore the one-dimensional nature of every character from TFA, and the general unoriginality of the whole thing. I just didn't anticipate being spat in the face by how they handled Luke, and by few universe-breaking things that would never have happened even in the prequel films or if Lucas was doing this trilogy (or a real Star Wars fan who knows his shit), such as Vader all of a sudden being a hero in the eyes of Dark Side users post-Endor, and some other nitpicky "Star Wars EU nerd" things, which I have forgotten about when I was writing about everything in-depth above, so I won't go heavily into it now, because it really wouldn't be something of concern for people who enjoyed the film anyway (we do see shields working in this film, but HOW they work is completely fucking illogical, regardless of the power of turbolaser fire withstanded by the shields, no fucking shield can survive 18 HOURS OF CONTINUOUS FIRE UPON IT, the shield generator will just drain, and will never be able to keep recharging for this long, but whatever). It really doesn't change anything.

If you enjoyed the film, then I'm happy for you, and I will not advise not to go see it to someone who hasn't, or anything. If you are able to not think of it as a Star Wars film while you're watching it, or if you're not much of a Star Wars fan to begin with, then I guess it's a fine sci-fi action film, with several surprising twists. It's an average film at best, but not nearly as stupid and unoriginal in its premise as TFA, even though it shares the same boring characters, which in itself is something that potentially ruins any future Episode with these guys in them. I can repeat my frustration at that Rian Johnson wasn't hired to write and direct TFA, because he would undoubtedly do a better job than the talentless fuck who I don't even want to mention by name at not only writing the first film in the new trilogy, but also at building the world and the characters for future installments. Instead, anyone who has ever dared to take this universe seriously was already doomed to suffer through these films, created by people who obviously never were fans of this thing, I don't care what the fuck JJ says, his work speaks for itself. All I can say, is that TLJ was less of a torture for a Star Wars fan than TFA was. If this is a compliment from me, it's a lukewarm one.

Having said that, I realize that we will never get anything better from the people running the show now. And since my journey to becoming a Star Wars fan (and discovering EU) started with the films, I still am unable, unfortunately, to completely ignore their existence. So I will try to watch TLJ in the cinema again, even though that'll require me to dumb myself down and pretend like I've never read an EU novel. Or better yet, not consider it being Star Wars at all. It all really feels more like an unofficial rip-off of it, with no soul of the original remaining. But sadly, that's all we are ever going to get, and fighting it is not a war we can win. So I'll give it another shot, by trying to adjust myself into it. Just because it's winter-time, the holidays, the Christmas spirit, or whatever it is, and I'm sad at not being able to enjoy myself watching a film that's supposedly a part of a franchise I was once a fan of.  :-\
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 21, 2017, 07:45:30 AM
Such as Luke disappearing along with his prosthetic hand, which should have remained on the ground where he vanished

Heh, this didn't occur to me at all, good catch.  I don't know that it definitely counts as an issue, as it's not like we have strong rules regarding Force ghosting and how the body becomes one with the Force - perhaps at that point he'd accepted the arm sufficiently that, so far as the Force within him was concerned, it was a part of him (and the rules that mechanicals don't feel the Force exist purely in books, not the movies) - but that's definitely a good nitpick.

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1. Snoke mentions Vader as someone for Kylo Ren to aspire to, which is idiotic, because for a Dark Side adept - Vader is the ultimate traitor and false idol. He didn't just kill Palpatine, he RETURNED TO THE LIGHT SIDE OF THE FORCE AND SAVED HIS SON. This wasn't an egotistical act, to kill your master and usurp his power, which is indeed how Sith have operated for centuries, and that's how the cycle of the Order of Two works - when the apprentice is powerful enough to betray and kill his master he does so, himself becoming the master and taking a new apprentice, thus continuing the cycle (Pali himself seems to be aware of this, by pointing out that Snoke's killing was legitimate, and mentions Vader, but for some reason is unfazed at the idiocy of Snoke comparing his apprentice to Vader openly three times in the film, clearly admiring Vader). Vader killed Palpatine only to save Luke, and by doing this he also essentially killed himself by exposing himself to Palpatine's force lightning. It's an altruistic gesture, one of ultimate sacrifice and love towards your family member. Something a true Sith will never forgive or forget.

This depends on the assumption that Vader's last-minute turn is widely known, which I don't know has been at all established.  Even in the EU, it wasn't until I, Jedi's accounting of the Jedi Academy trilogy time period that I can recall Luke telling anyone other than Leia about Vader's redemption, seemingly because he realized that most people wouldn't be able or willing to accept it.  It's very possible that in the new timeline Snoke, Kylo Ren, and most of the galaxy don't even know it happened, and they just think that Luke defeated Vader and the Emperor on the Death Star II.  I freely grant that this is a hole that requires an assumption like the above by the viewer to fill, and should've been clearly addressed in some way by the new movies - a couple lines of dialogue indicating my hypothesis or something similar as the case would've been enough - but it's not a big enough hole to bother me.  I'm a Trekkie just as much as I'm a Star Wars fan - and as such I'm used to having to... adjust... continuity a bit to keep things coherent without letting it bother me. ;) If you ever want to see how far Trekkies go into doing that, visit the DaystromInstitute subreddit sometime and see how much we have to twist certain things there to make them work. :D

Regarding point 2) this is an aspect that I'm not sure any of us can really sway each other on even if we go on for a dozen pages here.  What treatment of a character feels right is just so subjective a matter that it's impossible to say that one take or another is the "true" portrayal.  I've seen enough feedback here and elsewhere that I like to think I have an understanding of why many weren't happy with it, Hamill included... but with respect to all, I can't help but like what we got.  I'm a romantic at heart, and one of my favorite tropes to see executed well is the optimist-turned-cynic redemption arc, and I found the version we got with Luke here very satisfying.

I don't agree that Poe was a minor villain - he was a hero who made honest mistakes and had lessons he needed to learn.  There is nothing wrong with that being a character arc in my view: good guys are more interesting when they screw up.

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And whatever he does, Kylo is just not an intimidating villain to me, especially in the universe where Jacen Solo exists.

Personally, I don't think he's intended to really be intimidating (and in official canon, Jacen Solo doesn't exist ;)).  Star Wars has had plenty of intimidating villains, and I think they chose to go a new route with Kylo - he is, to me at least, a sympathetic villain.  He's a tragic character whose life just keeps pushing him in the wrong direction, so he tries to embrace that even as part of him is screaming that its wrong.  He's a character to pity more than fear in many ways, which is a type of villain rarely explored.

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(we do see shields working in this film, but HOW they work is completely fucking illogical, regardless of the power of turbolaser fire withstanded by the shields, no fucking shield can survive 18 HOURS OF CONTINUOUS FIRE UPON IT, the shield generator will just drain, and will never be able to keep recharging for this long, but whatever)

In fairness to the movie, they do specifically mention that the ship is at the very edge of turbolaser range and that the shots won't do much but remind the Resistance that the First Order is there. (edit: and to again reference the first X-Wing book, when Corran Horn flies against Tycho Celchu the first time, Tycho very intentionally starts firing at maximum range where his shots won't do damage but will distract Corran's targeting - again, precedent for maximum-range shots doing no damage but having tactical utility nonetheless)

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If you are able to not think of it as a Star Wars film while you're watching it, or if you're not much of a Star Wars fan to begin with, then I guess it's a fine sci-fi action film, with several surprising twists... All I can say, is that TLJ was less of a torture for a Star Wars fan than TFA was. If this is a compliment from me, it's a lukewarm one.

This is an attitude I do not like at all.  Respectfully, but you do not have the authority to define what a Star Wars fan is or what said fans may view as being properly Star Wars.  I've been a Star Wars fan for as long as I can remember - hell, I've got a Wraith Squadron patch-inspired tattoo of X-wings over the Rebel crest - and you are in no position to dictate whether or not I can enjoy this movie as a worthy addition to the saga.  I've seen the same kind of gatekeeping bullshit on Star Trek forums as purists claim people who enjoy DSC or the recent movies can't be real fans, and its just as much nonsense there as it is here.  Star Wars may mean different things to you and I, and you and I may enjoy different Star Wars stories and movies to varying degrees, but neither of us gets to tell the other that they aren't a fan - especially not just because you like specific Star Wars stories, concepts or characters I don't or vice versa.

It's interesting to me to note the disconnect between the movie's critical reception, fan reception I've seen online, and the reception of people I know IRL whether significant Star Wars fans or not.  Metacritic gives a critic review average of 86; a user average of 4.8.  Rotten Tomatoes has a 92% liked average for critics with an average 8.1 score, while users give a 54% liked with an average of 3.2/5 (or 6.4 of 10).  The worst review I've gotten from a person I know IRL is "I liked it, but it's definitely got some issues", which was from one person of the dozen+ I've discussed the movie with; the others all had a great time, though like me, none thought the movie perfect.  The critical reception and the people I know IRL seem to line up pretty well in agreement - a very solid addition to the saga, but with some room for improvement - it's the reception of people who view or identify themselves as Star Wars fans online that seems to stand out.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: tlmiller on December 21, 2017, 09:31:27 AM
I watched it on a pirate site, and I have to say:

1.  Glad I didn't spend the money to see this in the theatres.
2.  I can definitely see where some get and to a limited level agree with those that say it's a good sci-fi movie, but have trouble accepting it as Star Wars.
3.  BILLIONS of times better than TFA, but then, watching grass grow was better than TFA.
4.  I personally liked the fact that they finally injected some humor on purpose, I thought it made it much more watchable, even if some was...rough.
5.  Overall, good movie.  Not amazing, but good.  Won't purchase it, won't even probably ever watch it again.  But if I happen to be bored and it's on TV, I won't turn it off in disgust.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 21, 2017, 10:06:09 AM
Heh, this didn't occur to me at all, good catch.  I don't know that it definitely counts as an issue, as it's not like we have strong rules regarding Force ghosting and how the body becomes one with the Force - perhaps at that point he'd accepted the arm sufficiently that, so far as the Force within him was concerned, it was a part of him (and the rules that mechanicals don't feel the Force exist purely in books, not the movies) - but that's definitely a good nitpick.

Since posting my review of TLJ here, I have actually found an interview with Rian Johnson and Mark Hamill discussing the ending of the film where Rian voices his regret about this: "During the Q&A, Johnson also pointed out a slight flaw with the vanishing scene. “We were in the other room saying, ‘A steel hand should clunk to the ground.'" - so this is pretty much officially a blunder. Not a major one, of course, but still. In the same interview Hamill is clearly distraught about Luke's fate in the film. Here's the link, in case you're interested: http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/16/the-last-jedi-spoilers-rian-johnson-mark-hamill-luke-skywalker-revelations/2/

This depends on the assumption that Vader's last-minute turn is widely known, which I don't know has been at all established.  Even in the EU, it wasn't until I, Jedi's accounting of the Jedi Academy trilogy time period that I can recall Luke telling anyone other than Leia about Vader's redemption, seemingly because he realized that most people wouldn't be able or willing to accept it.  It's very possible that in the new timeline Snoke, Kylo Ren, and most of the galaxy don't even know it happened, and they just think that Luke defeated Vader and the Emperor on the Death Star II.  I freely grant that this is a hole that requires an assumption like the above by the viewer to fill, and should've been clearly addressed in some way by the new movies - a couple lines of dialogue indicating my hypothesis or something similar as the case would've been enough - but it's not a big enough hole to bother me.  I'm a Trekkie just as much as I'm a Star Wars fan - and as such I'm used to having to... adjust... continuity a bit to keep things coherent without letting it bother me. ;) If you ever want to see how far Trekkies go into doing that, visit the DaystromInstitute subreddit sometime and see how much we have to twist certain things there to make them work. :D

Well, you're right, I suppose it is slightly open to interpretation. But the one thing I will say is that Kylo Ren is also Ben Solo, which means that he grew up in the Solo family with Han and Leia, and obviously knew Luke very well, and he was also trained by him later. So I wouldn't say that it's a huge stretch to assume that Kylo/Ben knows about Vader's turn from Luke or Leia. And logically Snoke would have possibly become aware of it from Kylo. However, you are correct, there is still a chance of at least Snoke not knowing about Vader's demise, so I shouldn't have spoken about it so adamantly. Even though in reality I'm pretty sure that this was just neglect on Rian's part, who should not have included this reference and comparison in the film, because the absence of Vader's name in the script certainly wouldn't have changed anything in the story. But again, this started with TFA, and Kylo fanboying over Vader's helmet. And I disagree on this being a minor issue, it's not, if you respect the universe. I know that both you and I do, but it's an indication that JJ and possibly even Rian don't or don't care. This does bother me, not as an aspect of the film, but just such laziness on the writer's part. "Everyone loves Vader, let's just have his name in the script!". Again, it wasn't even necessary for the story at all, regardless of what one thinks of the story itself.

Regarding point 2) this is an aspect that I'm not sure any of us can really sway each other on even if we go on for a dozen pages here.  What treatment of a character feels right is just so subjective a matter that it's impossible to say that one take or another is the "true" portrayal.  I've seen enough feedback here and elsewhere that I like to think I have an understanding of why many weren't happy with it, Hamill included... but with respect to all, I can't help but like what we got.  I'm a romantic at heart, and one of my favorite tropes to see executed well is the optimist-turned-cynic redemption arc, and I found the version we got with Luke here very satisfying.

Well, I didn't say that I was against this version of Luke, I actually liked it. Making him a more conflicted character actually made him a little bit more dramatic. People are calling Rey Mary Sue, well, as much as I agree with it, Luke was the original Mary Sue, and I always thought of him as a bit boring, too. So this treatment certainly made him more interesting. What I did object to, was his death. I absolutely agree with Mark Hamill himself, that it had to occur in Ep. 9. He died at peace, yes, and it was a beautiful scene, with the twin sunset and all, but it's not like he died when the war is over, and evrything is done. No, quite the contrary. Now is the time when the Resistance needs him the most, so it doesn't really make much sence to kill him off now. I liked the force projection thing, but if you intended him to die, I'd rather he died in action. It pisses me off a little bit that he never actually left his island over the two films. Even though they have shown us that he still has his X-Wing. His death doesn't sit well with me, and I don't think it ever will, I trully have no reason to wait for 9 now. I'm only talking about myself though.

I don't agree that Poe was a minor villain - he was a hero who made honest mistakes and had lessons he needed to learn.  There is nothing wrong with that being a character arc in my view: good guys are more interesting when they screw up.

Well, maybe, but people died. When you "mess up", and it results in dozens of unnecessary deaths of your own people.... In real life you go to jail for such things, even if you're the kindest person in the world, and your intentions were always the best. Poe was demoted to commander, while in reality he should have been arrested and court-martialled. He wasn't, and only more people died because of him later. I have nothing against Poe, he's not the worst character in this trilogy for me, but this is just some shoddy writing.

Personally, I don't think he's intended to really be intimidating (and in official canon, Jacen Solo doesn't exist ;)).  Star Wars has had plenty of intimidating villains, and I think they chose to go a new route with Kylo - he is, to me at least, a sympathetic villain.  He's a tragic character whose life just keeps pushing him in the wrong direction, so he tries to embrace that even as part of him is screaming that its wrong.  He's a character to pity more than fear in many ways, which is a type of villain rarely explored.

Well, again, this was subjective on my part. He didn't work for me, personally, but that's just me. But your interpretation of him is also subjective. But this is not something obvious, where there is a right or wrong opinion (as most of this, if not all, really). As for Jacen Solo, by universe, I meant ours.  :D He certainly exists in my world, as a character.

In fairness to the movie, they do specifically mention that the ship is at the very edge of turbolaser range and that the shots won't do much but remind the Resistance that the First Order is there. (edit: and to again reference the first X-Wing book, when Corran Horn flies against Tycho Celchu the first time, Tycho very intentionally starts firing at maximum range where his shots won't do damage but will distract Corran's targeting - again, precedent for maximum-range shots doing no damage but having tactical utility nonetheless)

Thanks for the reference, it was probably not a very good observation on my part, or the most nitpicky nitpick of all. I'm happy to admit that I was wrong.  ;)

This is an attitude I do not like at all.  Respectfully, but you do not have the authority to define what a Star Wars fan is or what said fans may view as being properly Star Wars.  I've been a Star Wars fan for as long as I can remember - hell, I've got a Wraith Squadron patch-inspired tattoo of X-wings over the Rebel crest - and you are in no position to dictate whether or not I can enjoy this movie as a worthy addition to the saga.  I've seen the same kind of gatekeeping bullshit on Star Trek forums as purists claim people who enjoy DSC or the recent movies can't be real fans, and its just as much nonsense there as it is here.  Star Wars may mean different things to you and I, and you and I may enjoy different Star Wars stories and movies to varying degrees, but neither of us gets to tell the other that they aren't a fan - especially not just because you like specific Star Wars stories, concepts or characters I don't or vice versa.

Whoah, whoah! I wasn't referring to you, chill, dude, chill! Please, be reasonable!  :) By "you", I meant whomever is reading that comment. None of it was a direct response to you, btw. If you didn't notice, I referred to you earlier twice in third person. I know that you're a Star Wars fan, and would never tell any other Star Wars fan what to do and what not to do, as well as what defines a Star Wars fan, and I've specifically stated that I'm not advising anyone to not watch this film. It saddens me that this is how you see me, but it's probably because you haven't paid attention while reading my comment, which is fine, it was a very long-winded one. It's cool that you have SW tattoos, that's great! I have several, too, but none of them SW-related, SO FAR! But you never know ;D

It's interesting to me to note the disconnect between the movie's critical reception, fan reception I've seen online, and the reception of people I know IRL whether significant Star Wars fans or not.  Metacritic gives a critic review average of 86; a user average of 4.8.  Rotten Tomatoes has a 92% liked average for critics with an average 8.1 score, while users give a 54% liked with an average of 3.2/5 (or 6.4 of 10).  The worst review I've gotten from a person I know IRL is "I liked it, but it's definitely got some issues", which was from one person of the dozen+ I've discussed the movie with; the others all had a great time, though like me, none thought the movie perfect.  The critical reception and the people I know IRL seem to line up pretty well in agreement - a very solid addition to the saga, but with some room for improvement - it's the reception of people who view or identify themselves as Star Wars fans online that seems to stand out.

Well, in my case it's pretty much 50/50 when it comes to appreciation of this film amongst the SW fans I know. But those are interesting stats, and I've noticed the incredibly low audience score on RT.

It's always a pleasure debating Star Wars with you, Pali, you're a very interesting opponent, maybe time will come for something for us to agree upon, one day, just for a change. ;D Have a great day, whatever you're doing, and may the force be with you, my friend! Thanks for your time, I really enjoyed our conversation, and your optimism is contagious, I have to say  ;)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 21, 2017, 10:16:22 AM
3.  BILLIONS of times better than TFA, but then, watching grass grow was better than TFA.

Lol, brutal, but true.

but have trouble accepting it as Star Wars.

Yep, me too.  :-[
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 21, 2017, 12:49:46 PM
Sorry that I won't be touching on everyone's comments (there's a lot going on here) but there's some things I want to get into.

I'll admit that I have a lot of nitpicks about minor things and you can troll most movies in that way. But there are plenty of BIG logic problems as well that I mentioned above that I feel justified in complaining about.

World Building:
- While it is true that the original trilogy doesn't explain the empire to the last detail or the origins of the emperor, it doesn't actually have to. Hear me out. ANH establishes that there is an empire and living under it sucks (they blow up planets if they don't like you, not fun). But that's really all you need to know to empathize with the main characters and understand why there is a rebellion and what they are fighting for. Skip ahead to 7/8 where we basically have the same exact setup. The first order I evil because they blow up planets blah, and we must fight them. But it doesn't work this time because this isn't a new story and new universe. You can't just have a 25 year time skip and not explain what happened. At the end of RotJ the heroes win the battle and secure the peace they were fighting for (we know from EU that it wasn't that simple but from the trilogy's standpoint, the heroes had achieved their goal). Then 7 and 8 come along and where the force is that peace out heroes fought and bled to achieve? What happened to the New Republic Leia wanted to build? Why is the First Order stronger than the Empire ever was? Why is the new resistance so weak? What the heck was the point of the original trilogy if nothing has improved 25 years later? They OWE us that world building because our original characters are still here. What have they been doing? Why didn't they succeed?

Holdo is a terrible character:
- I'm surprised that you guys seem to be defending her. You want to talk about sleeper minor villains? That would be her. You say that Poe doesn't need to know? There might be a leak? Poe is their "best" pilot you really think he's going to be a leak? She doesn't even say anything when they are holding her at gunpoint. I think when your crew is staging a mutiny, they kind of need to know that you aren't just some inept commander that is going to get them all killed. Finn and Poe's entire role in the movie can be negated if she just tells them her plan. Then Holdo openly admits to Leia that she actually likes Poe (even though she has been a jerk to him this whole time) and then she stays behind to martyr and redeem herself so the audience won't hate her like they should. She spends the entire movie pulling rank to tell everyone to shut up and listen to her without actually giving anybody a real reason to shut up and listen to her.

Critical vs. fan reception:
- Of course the critics are praising it. You really shouldn't ever trust critic scores for anything (movies, games, tv, whatever). There is often a very high chance that the critics are being paid off for good reviews and this isn't just me being cynical. It's just smart business. You think megacorp Disney would allow anybody to give them a bad review? The more money a company has to flight around the less likely you will see bad "reviews." Critics said TFA was a good movie too but we all agree that it sucked right? This, aside from some YouTube comments is the only place that I've seen anybody who actually liked the movie. I saw the movie with two friends who are not as nerd as I am but they didn't like it either. My dad and sisters didn't like it either and they are definitely casual. I would not agree with the claim that the only people who don't like it are vocal Star Wars nerds.

Luke was NOT a Mary Sue:
- And neither were Jacen/Jaina/Anakin either. Just being strong in the force with little training does not make one a Mary Sue.
  https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/3xxi10/luke_skywalker_is_not_a_mary_sue_anh_spoilers/
That sums it up quite nicely. Just because Luke destroys the Death Star with little Jedi training does not make him a Mary Sue. Contrast to Rey who can fly and FIX the Falcon after being stranded on Jakku all her life, who can mind control stormtroopers, fight elite guards, fight Kylo Ren, lift a ton of rocks, oh and beat Luke himself in a "duel" with no training. None. 7/8 take place over the span of like a week and yet she can already beat the hero of this universe in combat? Her only "flaw" if you can call it that, is that she is hung up on her parents, but it isn't like it ever prevents her from accomplishing anything so I don't even think it counts. The only time she struggles in either movie is against Snoke, but that lasts a whole two minutes. Luke went through immense growth from 4-6. Has Rey grown from 7-8? Not really. The only thing that has changed is that she seems to have accepted that her parents were jerks.

Luke's character arc:
- Luke is ruined plain and simple. Destroyed. Spat on. He is a cynic now because his nephew turned to the dark side and killed his school? Welp, guess the Jedi suck might as well go die. No. In episode 6, Luke lets himself get captured so that he can try and turn his father (the second most evil person in the galaxy) to the light because he senses some good in him. Fast forward to 8 and Luke is considering KILLING his nephew because he is showing dark side tendencies. Are you kidding me? It is such a betrayal of Luke's character that it is beyond insulting. Mark Hamill even agrees. Everything about Luke in this movie is wrong. He is a completely different character. Sure you would expect him to change after 25 years but to think he would forget all of the lessons and trials he learned and went though in the original is ridiculous. The movie's handling of Luke is the single greatest sin in the entire new trilogy. Luke could be written out of the story and have died ten years ago to Star Wars equivalent of cancer and the new trilogy would be improved by it.

They butchered Han too but that was Abrams. I don't know why you guys are trying to hard so defend Johnson. He did a downright awful job and you can't blame it all on JJ.

Sorry, I'm ranting again. Please don't take my negative tone as offensive. I'm just really jaded. I will not be paying Disney another dollar for their butchering of my favorite series. Don't get me wrong I'll be curious when 9 comes out but there's no way I'll go pay for it unless everybody (not critics) turns around and says it saved the trilogy or something. But with Abrams at the helm and the pile of crud the last two movies were, that would be more than a miracle.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: tlmiller on December 21, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
But with Abrams at the helm and the pile of crud that everything he has ever touched in his entire life has been, that would be more than a miracle.

fixed.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 21, 2017, 04:30:37 PM
And I disagree on this being a minor issue, it's not, if you respect the universe. I know that both you and I do, but it's an indication that JJ and possibly even Rian don't or don't care. This does bother me, not as an aspect of the film, but just such laziness on the writer's part. "Everyone loves Vader, let's just have his name in the script!". Again, it wasn't even necessary for the story at all, regardless of what one thinks of the story itself.

I wouldn't go that far - it makes sense that if Snoke wants to make Kylo feel like a failure he'd use Vader as the comparison if only because Snoke knows how much Kylo idolized Vader.

Quote
Well, maybe, but people died. When you "mess up", and it results in dozens of unnecessary deaths of your own people.... In real life you go to jail for such things, even if you're the kindest person in the world, and your intentions were always the best. Poe was demoted to commander, while in reality he should have been arrested and court-martialled. He wasn't, and only more people died because of him later. I have nothing against Poe, he's not the worst character in this trilogy for me, but this is just some shoddy writing.

Definitely true, but the Resistance - especially in TLJ - is small, informal relative to most established militaries, and by this point almost out of people.  Rules get bent when there are only a few hundred of you facing massive odds and the violator is your best warrior. Edit: a good example of this happening even when the guy in charge really doesn't like or even trust the warrior in question comes from how Alfred deals with Uhtred in The Last Kingdom; Uhtred gets a lot of leeway simply because he's the best fighter Wessex has and Alfred knows that he's needed.

Quote
As for Jacen Solo, by universe, I meant ours.  :D He certainly exists in my world, as a character.

I know, I was just teasing. ;)

Quote
Whoah, whoah! I wasn't referring to you, chill, dude, chill! Please, be reasonable!  :) By "you", I meant whomever is reading that comment. None of it was a direct response to you, btw. If you didn't notice, I referred to you earlier twice in third person. I know that you're a Star Wars fan, and would never tell any other Star Wars fan what to do and what not to do, as well as what defines a Star Wars fan, and I've specifically stated that I'm not advising anyone to not watch this film. It saddens me that this is how you see me, but it's probably because you haven't paid attention while reading my comment, which is fine, it was a very long-winded one. It's cool that you have SW tattoos, that's great! I have several, too, but none of them SW-related, SO FAR! But you never know ;D

Apologies for the misunderstanding then - a combination of me having dealt with that sentiment an annoying amount lately and me being about two minutes from falling asleep after a long day can leave me a bit trigger-happy.

Holdo is a terrible character:
- I'm surprised that you guys seem to be defending her. You want to talk about sleeper minor villains? That would be her. You say that Poe doesn't need to know? There might be a leak? Poe is their "best" pilot you really think he's going to be a leak?

That's not how operational security works.  The concern isn't that Poe or any other specific person is a traitor, the concern is that the more information is spread, the more likely it will leak out somehow.  Poe definitely isn't going to intentionally betray the Resistance, but can a hothead pilot who was just demoted for disobeying orders be trusted to not, say, tell a fellow pilot or friend who is just as worried as he is?  And do you trust who that person might tell?  Do you trust that they aren't told in a room that the enemy may have snuck a listening device into?  Wedge Antilles was never going to betray the New Republic either, but Blackmoon being Borleias was still kept from him by Ackbar because he didn't need to know.  And as another general rule, most military commanders aren't going to feel very inclined to grant the demands of mutineers.

Quote
Of course the critics are praising it. You really shouldn't ever trust critic scores for anything (movies, games, tv, whatever). There is often a very high chance that the critics are being paid off for good reviews and this isn't just me being cynical. It's just smart business. You think megacorp Disney would allow anybody to give them a bad review? The more money a company has to flight around the less likely you will see bad "reviews." Critics said TFA was a good movie too but we all agree that it sucked right?

No, we don't - I enjoyed TFA plenty, and Rogue One I absolutely loved; I rate it around the same level as I do RotJ.  And as someone who agrees with the critics' consensus, I don't feel any need to assume that their take is somehow disingenuous - somehow I'm not shocked when people agree with me on things. ;)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 21, 2017, 07:45:44 PM
I don't have time for another long post, but the Reddit thread below has a lot of great discussion regarding how Luke was handled here that roughly parallels why I'm quite happy with what we got from TLJ regarding him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/7l9m4c/spoilers_lets_talk_about_luke_skywalker/
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 22, 2017, 10:52:48 AM
(Am multitasking atm so will condense mine)

The Good:
Effects and style of filming were decent.
Acting for the most part.
Slightly improved soundtrack over TFA.

The Bad:
Rey's 'development' if you want to call it that.
The plot is fairly cliche, not so much a remake of ESB, but obviously a homage with bits of RotJ.
Character decision making usually being painfully stupid.
Too much humor, felt like a running gag far too often.

The Ugly:
Luke, pretty much EVERYTHING until he sacrifices himself felt NOTHING like what Luke would do. It was so badly out of character even Hamill commented on it.
Snoke was built up and then not really done anything with at all. Felt like they just kinda scrapped that.
Rey being insanely good at EVERYTHING, Luke doesn't even really train her so much as gawk and serve to be the fuckup to her. This is beyond Anakin OP and Luke  OP. She doesn't have to work or have an explanation for being just Mary damned Sue(empowerment I guess, gotta check that box) Anakin was conceived by Force manipulation was originally Lucas idea to have Palpatine be his father in that sense, so it makes sense he'd be strong, Luke has Anakin's DNA as his son, makes sense he'd be strong. Rey's just a cosmic friggen accident of feminine power perfection.
Rose, her entire addition felt extremely forced.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 22, 2017, 11:09:11 AM
This
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 22, 2017, 03:50:57 PM
Like everyone, Hamill's got the right to his opinion - I simply disagree.  That someone is a Jedi doesn't stop them from being human, doesn't stop them from being able to be emotionally or mentally broken by traumatic events, doesn't stop them from making horrible mistakes that they can be consumed by guilt over.

Luke's attempt to train Ben Solo is, quite simply, the greatest failure of his entire life.  He took the child of his sister and his best friend, and he failed to prevent that child from falling to the dark - more than that, because of a moment's weakness he may well be what gave Ben the final push in the dark's direction, and because of that everything he worked for was destroyed and everyone he trained either also fell to the dark or was slaughtered.  On top of that, this failure mirrors the failure of the old Jedi as well, as in many ways it was their fault that Anakin Skywalker fell to the dark side.  So you have a character whose life dreams of restoring the Jedi are utterly shattered because of his own actions, who has failed on a personal level the people he cares about most, and who is likely now suffering from a great deal of survivor's guilt and PTSD after the deaths or betrayals of his students and the destruction of his school.

I have no trouble seeing this chain of events as one that could break someone, even someone as good as Luke.  I have no trouble seeing this chain of events as one that would leave Luke feeling like he's repeating the mistakes of the old Jedi, and that any more intervention on his part will only make things worse.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Slornie on December 22, 2017, 04:37:52 PM
I really liked The Last Jedi.  From a first watching I'd probably put it somewhere top three (and obviously above all of the prequels).  There were lots of similarities with both ESB and RotJ, but I feel the way those elements were brought together and reinterpreted here worked well.

The great:

- Luke's Force projection on Crait.  At first I was like "now how is he supposed to have got there?" but quickly decided it had to be a projection.
 That entire sequence was utterly brilliant and especially the way Hux/Kylo Ren reacted to the event.

- Kylo and Leia sensing each others presence and Kylo then being unable to fire on his own mother (after killing Han last movie), only for his wingmen to destroy the bridge right in front of him.  At this point he believes she is dead but i can't rightly remember if he later learnt otherwise?

- Luke and Rey, and Rey and Kylo conversations.  I loved the interaction between these pairs, and the latter in particular was quite a divergence from what we've seen before (I don't have any problem with that manifestation of the Force).


The good:

- Porgs and cystal foxes.  Loved the new fauna, although seeing the origin of blue milk was a bit weird!

- Luke's struggle with the Jedi legacy (including his failures as a teacher, which mirrors the old EU well) and the re-appearance of Yoda's Force ghost (glad they didn't try to cram Ewan McGregor in as a weirdly younger Old Ben too!).


The bad:

- Poe Dameron single handedly taking out all of the turrets on the Dreadnought.  They're bigger than his fighter yet they all went *poof* just like that.  Also does that thing have no shields?

- Drawn out suspense scene with gunner in the bomber ship thing during the battle to destroy the Dreadnought.  I assume that was supposed to be a moment for the audience to emotionally connect with the battle and Resistance sacrifice, but it just left me cold.  It's been used too often in various movies (wasn't there even a similar bit in Rogue One?) and this version wasn't particularly original.

- The Dreadnought itself.  Big black super ship with a giant cannon on the bottom.  All I can think of is Benedict CumberKhan's line from Star Trek Into Darkness: "Dreadnought class: two times the size, three times the speed, advanced weaponry, modified for a minimal crew.".  It's like Disney just lifted that concept wholesale from Paramount's movie.


The ugly:

- Lizard washerwomen on Ahch-To.  Seriously??
- Captain Phasma.  Utterly pointless character.  Saved from near certain death in the last movie for no reason whatsoever.


Various unrelated longer thoughts:

I feel some of the continuity in the movie was rather haphazard.  The bit that has stuck in my mind is the scenes in the giantbatwingthing hangar (no idea what that ship was actually called) which got rather fuzzy.  Before the ship was hit by hyperspace Raddus Finn and Rose are on the floor with Plasma/stormtroopers right next to them, yet in the next moment when the hangar is in flames Plasma and the stormtroopers are all the way across the deck heading back towards her prisoners? Wtf? Also thought it was rather convenient that the shuttle over by the exit was miraculously the only thing undamaged!

With regards to what happened to Luke at the end of the movie, I'm actually quite happy with it.  He's choosing his own time of passing and is at peace with his legacy (Yoda still handing out lessons from beyond the grave).  I also thought it nicely reflected both Yoda and Old Ben's deaths from the OT (i.e. there's almost a "if you strike me down I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" subtext between Luke and Kylo).  I'm also in two minds about that last strike of Kylo's lightsaber to projection-Luke and whether despite the metaphysical separation there was some real impact to Luke (he seemed to react to the saber).

Honestly, I feel Finn was dis-served by Rose's save in those last moments.  For me he's always been the weakest of the new hero characters and seems only to exist as a plot device (hey, I'ma rescue the named pilot, hey I know where the weapon control doo-da is, hey I know where the secret hyperspace tracker is on the supreme leader's ship even though I've probably never been on it before).  Allowing him to go out a proper hero, sacrificing himself for the greater good of his new-found friends and the Resistance, seemed like a good end.

The throne room scene with Snoke/Rey/Kylo was interesting.  Harks back to both RotJ and RotS, where Palpatine was trying to manipulate Anakin and Luke, but I like how it was changed up so Snoke is the one being played.  Kylo using the Force purposely to turn Rey's lightsaber into Snoke's side was a masterstroke for me.  However I'm still in two minds about whether or not that was actually Snoke there, or just a puppet with the real Snoke yet to be revealed.  I'm also wondering about Kylo's un-reveal about Rey's non-lineage.  Was he telling the truth, or was it merely a clever falsehood to undermine her self-confidence and beliefs as part of his attempt to turn her to his side?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 22, 2017, 07:00:29 PM
Like everyone, Hamill's got the right to his opinion - I simply disagree.  That someone is a Jedi doesn't stop them from being human, doesn't stop them from being able to be emotionally or mentally broken by traumatic events, doesn't stop them from making horrible mistakes that they can be consumed by guilt over.

Luke's attempt to train Ben Solo is, quite simply, the greatest failure of his entire life.  He took the child of his sister and his best friend, and he failed to prevent that child from falling to the dark - more than that, because of a moment's weakness he may well be what gave Ben the final push in the dark's direction, and because of that everything he worked for was destroyed and everyone he trained either also fell to the dark or was slaughtered.  On top of that, this failure mirrors the failure of the old Jedi as well, as in many ways it was their fault that Anakin Skywalker fell to the dark side.  So you have a character whose life dreams of restoring the Jedi are utterly shattered because of his own actions, who has failed on a personal level the people he cares about most, and who is likely now suffering from a great deal of survivor's guilt and PTSD after the deaths or betrayals of his students and the destruction of his school.

I have no trouble seeing this chain of events as one that could break someone, even someone as good as Luke.  I have no trouble seeing this chain of events as one that would leave Luke feeling like he's repeating the mistakes of the old Jedi, and that any more intervention on his part will only make things worse.

You seem to not fully appreciate that the entire catalyst to everything is that Luke was going to KILL his nephew (the child of his sister and best friend as you point out) because he was showing dark side tendencies. I don't even care if it was a "moment of weakness." As I have already pointed out, this betrays Luke's character to a degree so absurd that it is a wonder if Johnson even watched the original trilogy. Luke jumps through hoops to bring Vader back on the slim chance he could save him and yet for some reason Kylo is so lost that he should be murdered when he is still in jedi school? Even if you like Luke's character on the island, how can you even accept that he would have gotten there to begin with? His trauma should never have happened.

It would be like Leia blowing up a planet with a Death Star and then going through this arc where she's all regretful or whatever and she made a mistake. Ridiculous right? So is Luke in this movie. His actions undermine the very themes that drove the original trilogy.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 22, 2017, 08:14:57 PM
Luke also had a moment in RotJ where he was an inch away from killing his father after already slicing his hand off, and he had to pause and pull back from doing so.  He had a vision of the darkness within Ben and for a split second reacted with the thought "I need to prevent this" - and then again stopped himself.  No, I do not see this as in any way a betrayal of the character.

Edit: I liked how this moment was handled a lot, actually - it ties very well into Kenobi's adage of the truth depending on our point of view.  From Kylo's, Luke tried to kill him.  From Luke's, it was the culminating moment of Luke's long-term failure of Ben.  From Rey's, it was a screw-up on Luke's part, but the real failure remains Ben's.

Edit 2: Also, I seem to recall Luke sanctioning and assisting in killing Jacen Solo (and was about to kill Jacen personally until his own son demanded to do it himself) and Luke during the Vong war being far too passive with the Jedi because he took their failures as his personal fault until Vergere reminded him how egotistical that was...
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 22, 2017, 09:24:58 PM
Like everyone, Hamill's got the right to his opinion - I simply disagree.  That someone is a Jedi doesn't stop them from being human, doesn't stop them from being able to be emotionally or mentally broken by traumatic events, doesn't stop them from making horrible mistakes that they can be consumed by guilt over.

Luke's attempt to train Ben Solo is, quite simply, the greatest failure of his entire life.  He took the child of his sister and his best friend, and he failed to prevent that child from falling to the dark - more than that, because of a moment's weakness he may well be what gave Ben the final push in the dark's direction, and because of that everything he worked for was destroyed and everyone he trained either also fell to the dark or was slaughtered.  On top of that, this failure mirrors the failure of the old Jedi as well, as in many ways it was their fault that Anakin Skywalker fell to the dark side.  So you have a character whose life dreams of restoring the Jedi are utterly shattered because of his own actions, who has failed on a personal level the people he cares about most, and who is likely now suffering from a great deal of survivor's guilt and PTSD after the deaths or betrayals of his students and the destruction of his school.

I have no trouble seeing this chain of events as one that could break someone, even someone as good as Luke.  I have no trouble seeing this chain of events as one that would leave Luke feeling like he's repeating the mistakes of the old Jedi, and that any more intervention on his part will only make things worse.

There's being human Pali and there's literally doing the exact opposite of everything you are as a person. Yea, I get it, Luke fouled up, but based on who he is and his development he would not do what this film says he did. Luke would do everything in his power and beyond to TRY and fix it, to do SOMETHING, that's who he is and what he does. It's utterly inconceivable that the Luke I saw risk EVERYTHING including his own life to redeem Darth Vader just because there was SOME good in him, save his friends and the Rebellion would first off contemplate murdering someone for something they haven't even done and then ABANDON his friends, family and the galaxy just to hide away. If he was trying to find some way or secret to making it right I could see him TELLING Leia and Han he had to do so and MAYBE be gone a year tops. Hamill PLAYED this character for a decade, and has had four decades of media, fans and the like to further delve into who Luke is as a character and when he himself is pointing this out it's not so much an opinion as a pretty solidly backed statement by an expert on Luke himself as a character. The film flies right in the face of who and what Luke was and not even for a good reason, it's just to cast light on the NEW faces by comparison, it's why the character change feels so jarring and frankly uncharacteristic.

A comparison to this would be if Gandalf felt bad he convinced Frodo to go to his likely death so he went into the wild while Sauron annihilated Middle Earth. It would be contrary to literally his entire being, just as this travesty did with Luke. Your comparison of his action in RotJ against Vader is also not accurate in his decision with Ben, against Vader he flew into a blind rage at Vader's threat against Leia, with Ben he was making a cold, DELIBERATE decision to kill his nephew, not heat of the moment battle high, Luke Skywalker, actively contemplating MURDER against someone who hadn't even gone over yet. So yeah, I see that and his self imposed pity exile as a pretty big betrayal of the character.

You might recall also that during the Vong War he still took action, he was involved and saved lives. he didn't exile himself, he just didn't see the Jedi needing to be the NR's new SF. As to Jacen Solo, I'd point out he also gave him chances to come back, Jacen plunged the Galaxy into a war(not just Luke's fear of IF he might) and Jacen had no qualms about killing Luke or any of the old gang so again it's measuring what Kylo MIGHT do against what Jacen HAD ALREADY done, so it doesn't really compare again.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 22, 2017, 10:09:39 PM
The character change may feel jarring to you, but not to me nor to many others - many of us see it as an understandable development for a character broken by abject failure and consumed by guilt, both of which can cause you to effectively stop acting like the person you were.  I've had experiences in life that have impacted me similarly, and I've had moments where I suddenly had to stop myself and ask "what the fuck am I doing here?!" because I found myself doing something I normally would not, so such happening to Luke didn't phase me - it made him feel more real, which was a major theme of the movie.

Luke was hiding from Vader until Vader provoked him into a rage by threatening to turn Leia, only stopping himself after he cuts off Vader's hand and the Emperor starts encouraging him.  Luke had a vision of the darkness within Ben and all the damage it could cause, and this caused him to think for a moment "I can't let that happen." before he stops himself.  I'm not saying these are identical situations, but if anger could make Luke entertain the notion of killing a family member and actually try to carry it out, why couldn't fear make him entertain it for a second before rejecting it?  Yes, Jacen was doing bad while Ben hadn't yet - which is probably why Jacen Luke fully intended to kill, and Ben Luke held back from killing to give him those chances to turn back.  He never actually tried to kill Ben, he just considered the thought for a moment before rejecting it - and saying a character isn't allowed to even think about doing something before deciding not to is, to me, demanding too much.

The Vong war example is even further removed in the contextual details - my point is just that we have precedence for Luke taking responsibility for the acts of his students and holding back from certain actions out of fear of how things may go wrong because of them.  The difference here is of degree, not type, and it isn't combined with him having lost everything he had worked for.  Had Kyp Durron and Exar Kun destroyed the Jedi temple, slaughtered the rest of the students, and gone on to revitalize the Empire with Luke believing this is all specifically his fault... well, we'll never know.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 22, 2017, 10:57:28 PM
I really loved the Last Jedi. I say its the star wars movie i was waiting for. It my ranking it is now in my top 3 slot. However it does have alot of flaws.

The Great:
1. Poe Dameron: Oscar Isac is great as Poe. I really like how coky, arrogant, and hot shot he was at the beginging. Seening him evole into something new was rather great.
2. Rey and Kylo vs the pratorian guards. Really brutual and violent and amazing.
3. Leia: Done good justice, but i will say JJ is fucked next movie, because Carrie Fisher is dead.
4. Finn and Rose: Great charcters, fun adventure, but pointless(touch on more in bad)
5. Kylo killing Snoke: Great, now Kylo can be his own thing and now rule the galaxy. I for one welcome our new Emo bitch overlord.
6. Poe 1v1 the dreadnaught: while kind of bullshit it was really funny.
Good
1. Vice-Admiral Holldo(?): Great character, but was wasted. I love how she took out a entire fleet.
2. Crait: Amazing and i loved the battle their.
3. Swearing: off putting but great to see star wars become more mature.
4. Rey using the lightsaber during training: Awesome.
Bad
1. Canto Bight: great message, fun story, but utterly pointless.
2. Hux: Abused way toooo much.
3. The Supermacy: Yeah no that ship is bullshit and probably the worse SSD ever. All i needed is to Hyperspace Behind it fuck up its shit. Also pointless.
4. Killing off Luke: Why? Kill of Leia.
5. Luke: Sometimes he was liked "Get Fucked" or "fine you brat" or "hey look at me i am a horrrible person."
Ugly:
Phasma: WTF was that? She went out like a bitch. Gwedoline Cristie is such a good actress. why wasted her charcter? Btw TR-8R>Boba Fett>Phasma
JJ is being in trusted with the sequel: *sense a disturbance in the force* Fuck.....
Lando: Where the fuck is my boy Lando? Where the fuck is he?
Snoke: Pointless, and still no origin.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 23, 2017, 02:23:24 PM
I watched it again on the big screen today, and it's okay, I guess. I was too harsh on it, and after the second viewing, I don't really have problems with much aside for Luke's death, if I don't nitpick, but even that is something which maybe will potentially grow on me. As for ranking it amongst other films, for me it clearly and conveniently divides the 9 films into threes. The 3 really good ones, for me, are ESB, R1 and ANH (with ESB being the only pretty much flawless one). The 3 watchable ones are RofS, RotJ and now TLJ, with the three weak and almost unwatchable ones being TPM, AotC and TFA. At least that's how I see it now. Interesting to see what happens next with Solo and Kenobi films. I am a but fearful for Episode 9 now since JJ is doing it. I wish they'd let Colin Trevorrow do it, as they initially planned. But as for TLJ, Rian Johnson has indeed managed to write and develop a pretty much compelling story, at least at the heart of the film. I'm glad I saw it again, it really calmed me down. There are a lot of things to take in, and it confused me at first, I guess. It's a fine film, not a great one, but miles better than the first two prequel films and TFA. But it's only my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 23, 2017, 03:50:50 PM
Star Wars fans with the new movies... ;)

(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/i_hate_this_star_trek_tng.gif)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 23, 2017, 04:44:58 PM
Star Wars fans with the new movies... ;)

(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/i_hate_this_star_trek_tng.gif)

Something like that, yes.  ;D
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Mr.Puerto on December 23, 2017, 05:27:47 PM
I really liked it, it had its flaws and I can see why people didn't like it. But it doesn't change my opinion on it.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 23, 2017, 08:40:52 PM
Here are some questions:
1. How much territory does the FO actually control?
2. Was Snoke the "Dark presence Papaltine felt in the Unknown Regions?"
3. How is the FO government structured?
4. So Is Emo Ren the uncontestant ruler of the FO?
5. Did that moment between Rey and Poe tease a possible romance?
6. Where and what are the Knights of Ren?
7. Why did Luke make a map to his location if he wanted to be left alone?
8. Why is Kylo such a Emo bitch?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 23, 2017, 08:44:36 PM
Here are some questions:
1. How much territory does the FO actually control?
2. Was Snoke the "Dark presence Papaltine felt in the Unknown Regions?"
3. How is the FO government structured?
4. So Is Emo Ren the uncontestant ruler of the FO?
5. Did that moment between Rey and Poe tease a possible romance?
6. Where and what are the Knights of Ren?
7. Why did Luke make a map to his location if he wanted to be left alone?
8. Why is Kylo such a Emo bitch?

Tsk tsk, those are questions for writers who actually know what they are doing and HAVE creativity my dear fellow, you should know the current Disney 'creative freedom' board have no idea.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 23, 2017, 08:52:28 PM
Not going to lie, you guys defending this movie are killing me, but I guess I can't sway you so I give up.

As for that gif though, no I don't want more. I'm done with Disney's Star Wars, sorry.

Also you should be careful about blurting out Jacen Solo spoilers. I haven't finished that tale yet... and unlike this new trilogy, it is one that I care about.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 23, 2017, 09:40:43 PM
Don't give up Turtle! That's not the Jedi way!  They may redeem themselves with IX! ;)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 23, 2017, 10:24:12 PM
Don't give up Turtle! That's not the Jedi way!  They may redeem themselves with IX! ;)
Honestly the Last Jedi was something different which i enjoyed. However based on JJ's style i am acutally pretty worried about star wars episode IX. He likes to shove too much real world problems in it, when star wars should just be about space battles and the light and darkside of the force. JJ screwed Ryan over by setting up all these expetations on TLJ. Ryan was just trying to make a good story. Fuck JJ for messing it up. While i do mostly blame JJ for what happened, i would also say that Ryan shoud've have been more careful with this movie. Dont get me wrong, this movie took risks that i acutally enjoyed, but next time be more careful. I also think that disney is smart making Ryan Johnson get his own triology where he can lay down the ground rules and go anywhere he wants.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Meyer on December 24, 2017, 04:21:02 AM
In my opinion it's not a good movie. Some good things but overall too many problems too be enjoyable.

The good
- Visuals are stunnig
- The acting is good
- Rey/Kylo/Snoke scene is the best part of the movie

The bad
- the plot
- Mary Sues (Rey, BB-8)
- Finn/Rose storyline

The ugly
- Luke Skywalker
- the jokes
- political messages

Overall this movie undermines a lot of previous Star Wars stories by ignoring them or just making them irrelevant. So much that didn't make sense to me. Lukes story is just a total 180 on his character that was built in the OT. If that hyperspacer ramming thing is that effective it means that the Death Stars were never a true threat to anyone, you could just take them out with one cruiser.

Who is Snoke and who are Rey's parents were two things that were implied to be important questions in TFA. And this movie just ignored them both. The reveal of Rey's parentage is a throwaway line that has no lasting effect on the story. I don't care that they are just dead junkers. You don't need famous parents to be important in Star Wars. But TFA made it seem that she has some connection to Luke by guiding her to his lightsaber. It called to her and we are never given an answer as to why. And Rey just continues to be perfect in everything she does. With basically no training she defeats trained warriors easily. And let's remember that has passed from the beginning of TFA to the end of this movie is, what, a month tops. So yeah, the Resistance took a beating in this movie but it doesn't matter, they have Rey so they are in no real danger.

And then we have the First Order, which during no part of this movie feel a like a genuine threat to anyone. They're far too incompetent to be a threat. They could have destroyed the Resistance at anytime by sending some ships through hyperspace to intercept them but they dont' even consider that option. Or send their fighters but they don't do that either.

Finn/Rose story doesn't bother me because it fails to do anything, I mean missions fail all the time. It bothers me because it's full of political messages that have no importance to the story. Also I was a bit suprised that they needed a codebreaker. I thought it would be something that BB-8 would do without a problem. He does everything else the plot needs him to. BB-8 is the true Mary Sue of this trilogy.

Many people complain that Holdo should have told Poe her plan. The thing is she has no obligation to tell him. She is the ranking officer, she doesn't need to explain her plans to anytime under her command. The fact that Poe can't deal with this is quite weird, he is a soldier afterall. He should understand this thing called the chain of command.

There are more things that bothered me but I don't have time to get into those right now. Maybe after christmas.
Happy holidays to you all and may the force be with you always.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Slornie on December 24, 2017, 06:40:07 AM
4. So Is Emo Ren the uncontestant ruler of the FO?
I wouldn't be surprised if Snoke is actually undead and Kylo just killed his avatar/puppet.  I don't think he really cared which of Rey or Kylo turned (Kylo has consistently been shown as conflicted until that decisive moment in the throneroom), as they both seem to have similar levels of raw power.  As your questions 1 and 3 make clear, we don't really know enough about the First Order to determine whether there may be other leadership elsewhere with a claim (although any that did would have to outfight a very angry Dark Jedi to make good on it!).


5. Did that moment between Rey and Poe tease a possible romance?
Must have missed that bit. To be honest I was perfectly glad to see the back of the psuedo Rey/Finn love interest and don't care to have them try and force another one in.


6. Where and what are the Knights of Ren?
Kylo's probably murdered then all already in his fits of angst.  No, but seriously, I'm assuming this is something that JJ will pick up in the next movie although from the flashbacks in both TFA and TLJ they're probably no more than a handful of part-trained Jedi apprentices anyway.


7. Why did Luke make a map to his location if he wanted to be left alone?
He didn't.  The partial map from the Imperial archives was to the lost Jedi Temple on Ahch-To, which Leia/others knew was what Luke had been searching for.  For both factions it seems finding the missing part of the map was just their best guess at where he might have ended up, and probably no more directed than ANH Leia desperately heading to Tatooine in the hope that Obi-Wan hadn't moved or snuffed it since he'd last pen-palled with Bail Organa.



Overall this movie undermines a lot of previous Star Wars stories by ignoring them or just making them irrelevant. So much that didn't make sense to me. Lukes story is just a total 180 on his character that was built in the OT.
You mean the previous EU Star Wars stories that Disney categorically wrote off in 2014?  None of that matters in these movies because they never happened.  Specifically with regards to Luke, we've really no idea what his character has been through in this timeline since RotJ.  For all we know he suffered PTSD after the events with Vader and the Emperor!

For me the event at the new Jedi Temple with Kylo shown in the flashback, from multiple perspectives, doesn't seem that far removed from how Luke reacted in the throne room when he realised Vader was considering going after and trying to turn Leia.  Suddenly scared, he lashed out.  Only this time it's a perception of deep darkness from his nephew, whose training he was already concerned about, and possibly a Force vision or premonition, which led to a momentary loss of balance.


If that hyperspacer ramming thing is that effective it means that the Death Stars were never a true threat to anyone, you could just take them out with one cruiser.
If an A-wing ramming into the bridge of the Executor was so effective why didn't Poe or someone just do that with the Dreadnought at the start of this movie?  One swallow does not a summer make.  I'm sure people can come up with any number of reasons why said strategy wouldn't have worked against the Death Star, and failing that you just fall back on the "nobody thought of it before" get-out clause.


Who is Snoke and who are Rey's parents were two things that were implied to be important questions in TFA. And this movie just ignored them both. The reveal of Rey's parentage is a throwaway line that has no lasting effect on the story. I don't care that they are just dead junkers. You don't need famous parents to be important in Star Wars. But TFA made it seem that she has some connection to Luke by guiding her to his lightsaber. It called to her and we are never given an answer as to why.
I thought both Luke and Snoke hinted at where Rey's power comes from, and indirectly, why she was called to the lightsaber.  An inherent unconscious balancing act of tension by an unseen force.  The Force Awakens.  How and why was Qui Gon drawn to Anakin in Phantom Menace?

For Snoke, I agree some more exposition on him and the state of the galaxy would have been nice, but I don't think strictly necessary.  The Emperor was almost as vague in the OT, only with the advent of the Prequels did he become more firmly fleshed out (and the timespan between PT and OT is shorter than that between OT and ST).  And as I suggested earlier, I don't yet believe Snoke's story is finished - or Rey's parentage, for that matter.


And Rey just continues to be perfect in everything she does. With basically no training she defeats trained warriors easily. And let's remember that has passed from the beginning of TFA to the end of this movie is, what, a month tops.
Rey's skills and their origin were telegraphed quite clearly in TFA: an orphan growing up in practically indentured servitude on a harsh desert planet where you have to be tough to survive.  Combat skills from growing up in such a hostile environment.  Technical knowledge from dismantling and selling parts from crashed starships, and living in a derelict Imperial walker.  Piloting skills gleaned from her scavenged flight sim headset and being one of Ungar Platt's favoured servants.  Compare that to Luke: farm boy on a comparatively safe world (the odd Jawa or Tusken Raider aside) who shoots womp rats from his crop-duster in his spare time.

And I don't believe Rey "defeats trained warriors with ease".  Sure she beat up some thugs on Jakku, but then later the fight with Kylo was really tough for her despite Kylo's weakened and disadvantaged state (shot by Chewie's bowcaster).  It was only when she "used the Force" that she was able to match even that.  Then in this film Luke outmatched her easily in their sparring until she cheats and brings out a Lightsaber, and in the throne room scene is tossed about like a leaf by Snoke and then handled one royal guard (if that's still the term) for every three Kylo fought.


And then we have the First Order, which during no part of this movie feel a like a genuine threat to anyone. They're far too incompetent to be a threat. They could have destroyed the Resistance at anytime by sending some ships through hyperspace to intercept them but they dont' even consider that option. Or send their fighters but they don't do that either.
No arguments on this from me, but then the Resistance leadership didn't fare much better either.  Obviously Snoke took a leaf out of Vader's book and killed all the competent officers already!
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 24, 2017, 07:00:36 AM
Honestly the Last Jedi was something different which i enjoyed. However based on JJ's style i am acutally pretty worried about star wars episode IX. He likes to shove too much real world problems in it, when star wars should just be about space battles and the light and darkside of the force. JJ screwed Ryan over by setting up all these expetations on TLJ. Ryan was just trying to make a good story. Fuck JJ for messing it up. While i do mostly blame JJ for what happened, i would also say that Ryan shoud've have been more careful with this movie. Dont get me wrong, this movie took risks that i acutally enjoyed, but next time be more careful. I also think that disney is smart making Ryan Johnson get his own triology where he can lay down the ground rules and go anywhere he wants.

This mentality needs to stop. Everyone just loves to hate on JJ and while most of the time it is justified, blaming him for this movie's failure is ridiculous. I don't know why so many people are trying to give Johnson a free pass on this one, I admittedly haven't seen any of his other movies (nor do I want to now).

Point being. Johnson made this movie. Johnson ignored whatever setup and plotlines JJ gave him. Johnson ruined Luke. Johnson made this inconceivable mess of a plot that lacks logic. Johnson ruined this movie, not JJ.

VII did not end in a position that was doomed for failure where Rian was screwed. But if you ask me, JJ is actually the one who is screwed for IX. I can't honestly think of a way to save this mess and I certainly don't envy JJ for having to come up with something. Sure half of it is his fault, but half of it is Rian's, let's not forget that.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 24, 2017, 07:16:49 AM
This mentality needs to stop. Everyone just loves to hate on JJ and while most of the time it is justified, blaming him for this movie's failure is ridiculous. I don't know why so many people are trying to give Johnson a free pass on this one, I admittedly haven't seen any of his other movies (nor do I want to now).

Point being. Johnson made this movie. Johnson ignored whatever setup and plotlines JJ gave him. Johnson ruined Luke. Johnson made this inconceivable mess of a plot that lacks logic. Johnson ruined this movie, not JJ.

VII did not end in a position that was doomed for failure where Rian was screwed. But if you ask me, JJ is actually the one who is screwed for IX. I can't honestly think of a way to save this mess and I certainly don't envy JJ for having to come up with something. Sure half of it is his fault, but half of it is Rian's, let's not forget that.

And what's your opinion on TFA, did you like it?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 24, 2017, 08:25:41 AM
I'm sure people can come up with any number of reasons why said strategy wouldn't have worked against the Death Star, and failing that you just fall back on the "nobody thought of it before" get-out clause.

Oh, that's easy.  Jumping into hyperspace has you accelerate to light speed within real space before you actually enter hyperspace.  This acceleration doesn't happen instantaneously, so your ship covers a certain distance between engaging the hyperdrive and actually entering hyperspace.  If that distance is shorter than the Death Star's weapons range, and the Death Star's main gun has a range in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers easily, it'll blast you long before you can make the jump.

Also, the Death Star being deployed completely on its own in the OT was, quite simply, stupid.  It doesn't matter that an aircraft carrier is largely capable of defending itself against submarines, surface ships, and air attacks - you still provide it with a protective fleet made up of elements that specialize in each of those roles.  That the Death Star went anywhere without a few dozen Star Destroyers and a hundred smaller ships supporting it is ridiculous, and such escorts would provide further protection against suicide attacks as these ships could intercept the enemy before they get into range.

Nitpicking anything is easy. ;)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 24, 2017, 11:58:46 AM
Oh, that's easy.  Jumping into hyperspace has you accelerate to light speed within real space before you actually enter hyperspace.  This acceleration doesn't happen instantaneously, so your ship covers a certain distance between engaging the hyperdrive and actually entering hyperspace.  If that distance is shorter than the Death Star's weapons range, and the Death Star's main gun has a range in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers easily, it'll blast you long before you can make the jump.

Also, the Death Star being deployed completely on its own in the OT was, quite simply, stupid.  It doesn't matter that an aircraft carrier is largely capable of defending itself against submarines, surface ships, and air attacks - you still provide it with a protective fleet made up of elements that specialize in each of those roles.  That the Death Star went anywhere without a few dozen Star Destroyers and a hundred smaller ships supporting it is ridiculous, and such escorts would provide further protection against suicide attacks as these ships could intercept the enemy before they get into range.

Nitpicking anything is easy. ;)

Clearly you missed the point of the Death Star Pali, it's entire existence was supposed to REPLACE the need for a fleet. It had firepower nothing could block, more turbolasers, TIEs and planetary grade shielding than anything else. It was SUPPOSED to be fully self contained and NOT require support. That argument was what allowed Tarkin to justify the long construction, expense and resources it ate up. Having Star Destroyers and fleet support in it's maiden voyage would have been to admit the entire point of the Death Star was invalid. It would have undermined Tarkin, the Death Star and the superweapon argument.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 24, 2017, 02:34:22 PM
Also, the Death Star being deployed completely on its own in the OT was, quite simply, stupid.  It doesn't matter that an aircraft carrier is largely capable of defending itself against submarines, surface ships, and air attacks - you still provide it with a protective fleet made up of elements that specialize in each of those roles.  That the Death Star went anywhere without a few dozen Star Destroyers and a hundred smaller ships supporting it is ridiculous, and such escorts would provide further protection against suicide attacks as these ships could intercept the enemy before they get into range.
Their were actually ships in the area. The Devastator was on the edge of the system. The crew of the ship were order to not engage and instead act as a communication center and protect the Interdictors should they be detected by the Rebels. They actually witness the death star exploded and their is this really depressing part where some people get upset because they had a brother or sister aboard the Death Star.

This mentality needs to stop. Everyone just loves to hate on JJ and while most of the time it is justified, blaming him for this movie's failure is ridiculous. I don't know why so many people are trying to give Johnson a free pass on this one, I admittedly haven't seen any of his other movies (nor do I want to now).

Point being. Johnson made this movie. Johnson ignored whatever setup and plotlines JJ gave him. Johnson ruined Luke. Johnson made this inconceivable mess of a plot that lacks logic. Johnson ruined this movie, not JJ.

VII did not end in a position that was doomed for failure where Rian was screwed. But if you ask me, JJ is actually the one who is screwed for IX. I can't honestly think of a way to save this mess and I certainly don't envy JJ for having to come up with something. Sure half of it is his fault, but half of it is Rian's, let's not forget that.
People hate JJ not because we love to hate him, but Just hate his movies. All of his movies that i have watched personally have sucked. Also most of his movies rip off the plot of other movies that are far better. JJ was the one who made Snoke important, JJ was the one who didn't fully explain why Luke was in Exile, JJ was the one of hyped up the Knights of Ren, JJ was the one who made it seem like Rey was important(Despite Daisy Ridley saying in many interviews for TFA and TLJ that Finn and Rey are just nobodies with no big backstory.), He was the one who set up the ground rules of this universe. How the hell was Ryan suppose to explain why Luke was in exile? A lot of the movie makes it so I don't have to care about the Knights of Ren, because IMO they are pointless, and serve nothing other than just to be Kylo's body guards. My other question is why bother with Snoke? Just make Kylo Ren the leader of FO(which is what we got and i am happy about it.) JJ is just bad at making movies, and most people agree with me.

Ryan actually has some good movies like Looper which is amazing, and you should watch it. I actually think the problem is that people were overhyped by JJ which is what ruined the experience for some.

Must have missed that bit. To be honest I was perfectly glad to see the back of the psuedo Rey/Finn love interest and don't care to have them try and force another one in.
It was at the end of the movie aboard the Falcon where people are reuniting. After Leia Reunites with Chewbacca, We see Poe talking with another pilot when he notices BB-8 having his antenna fixed by Rey. Poe walks over and introduces himself in the most awkward way possible. Like Seriously do either one of these to know how to introduce themselves properly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUpHljqZjXw
I found it on youtube, somehow.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 24, 2017, 08:25:07 PM
Their were actually ships in the area. The Devastator was on the edge of the system. The crew of the ship were order to not engage and instead act as a communication center and protect the Interdictors should they be detected by the Rebels. They actually witness the death star exploded and their is this really depressing part where some people get upset because they had a brother or sister aboard the Death Star.

And this is mentioned in the movie... where? ;)

Clearly you missed the point of the Death Star Pali, it's entire existence was supposed to REPLACE the need for a fleet. It had firepower nothing could block, more turbolasers, TIEs and planetary grade shielding than anything else. It was SUPPOSED to be fully self contained and NOT require support. That argument was what allowed Tarkin to justify the long construction, expense and resources it ate up. Having Star Destroyers and fleet support in it's maiden voyage would have been to admit the entire point of the Death Star was invalid. It would have undermined Tarkin, the Death Star and the superweapon argument.

Clearly you missed my point - I was teasing you guys. ;)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 24, 2017, 11:11:34 PM
People hate JJ not because we love to hate him, but Just hate his movies. All of his movies that i have watched personally have sucked. Also most of his movies rip off the plot of other movies that are far better. JJ was the one who made Snoke important, JJ was the one who didn't fully explain why Luke was in Exile, JJ was the one of hyped up the Knights of Ren, JJ was the one who made it seem like Rey was important(Despite Daisy Ridley saying in many interviews for TFA and TLJ that Finn and Rey are just nobodies with no big backstory.), He was the one who set up the ground rules of this universe. How the hell was Ryan suppose to explain why Luke was in exile? A lot of the movie makes it so I don't have to care about the Knights of Ren, because IMO they are pointless, and serve nothing other than just to be Kylo's body guards. My other question is why bother with Snoke? Just make Kylo Ren the leader of FO(which is what we got and i am happy about it.) JJ is just bad at making movies, and most people agree with me.

Ryan actually has some good movies like Looper which is amazing, and you should watch it. I actually think the problem is that people were overhyped by JJ which is what ruined the experience for some.

Spot on, you're absolutely right. Johnson improved what he could with the story and characters Abrams left him with. And to be fair to Abrams, he is a pretty good producer of TV projects. Lost is still considered by many to be a great series (even though I personally was never a fan). As for his writing and directing abilities, that's where the problem lies. He got a lot of stick earlier when he made Star Trek: Into Darkness, which was a blatant rip-off/much shittier remake of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. And then did the same thing with The Force Awakens, just rehashing A New Hope. This guy just cannot write an original story to save his life, which is why the majority of both the Star Wars and Star Trek communities can't stand him. Rian Johnson's Looper is better than anything that JJ ever worked on, and RJ has also directed three episodes of Breaking Bad (including Ozymandias and the Fly, which are among the best ones of the show). So I wouldn't throw Rian under the bus, he is a proven filmmaker, writer and director of both film and TV (fucking great TV at that). Lost has nothing on Breaking Bad, imho.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 25, 2017, 01:37:33 AM
I don't like JJ and I thought TFA was crap too. However, I had the belief that if TLJ built off of TFA than it would improve TFA. But instead nothing builds at all really and a lot of stuff is just outright ignored.

We know JJ is bad, which is also why we know IX will be bad (protip: don't pay to see it). My point was though that 8 (Rian) had stuff to work with whereas 9 (JJ) has a total mess to work with.

And I'm also trying to figure out why so many people are adamantly defending Johnson, as if he is somehow blameless here. I haven't seen Looper or Breaking Bad but you're telling me because he made one good movie and 3 episodes (of like a six season show?) that he is somehow infallible?

Just because Bioware made Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Origins doesn't mean we didn't call out their bs for ME3 and DA2.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 25, 2017, 06:23:33 AM
I don't like JJ and I thought TFA was crap too. However, I had the belief that if TLJ built off of TFA than it would improve TFA. But instead nothing builds at all really and a lot of stuff is just outright ignored.

We know JJ is bad, which is also why we know IX will be bad (protip: don't pay to see it). My point was though that 8 (Rian) had stuff to work with whereas 9 (JJ) has a total mess to work with.

And I'm also trying to figure out why so many people are adamantly defending Johnson, as if he is somehow blameless here. I haven't seen Looper or Breaking Bad but you're telling me because he made one good movie and 3 episodes (of like a six season show?) that he is somehow infallible?

Just because Bioware made Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Origins doesn't mean we didn't call out their bs for ME3 and DA2.

No, of course he's not infallible, but he's been involved in better projects than JJ ever was. If you're not a JJ fan, then just ignore my previous comment, you were just the only one here defending Abrams, so I made the wrong conclusion that you actually admire his work. Look, I was hating on TLJ too, initially, but time went by and I thought things through and realized that it's not that bad. I, for one, don't have the energy or desire to be hating on it to the winning end. These kind of lazily written Star Wars films are all we're ever going to get. At least with the sequel trilogy, since Rogue One was actually really good. So I'm still remaining hopeful for at least anthology films. I know that it's not good that the main episode films are getting dumbed down for us, and we're not really getting the Star Wars we deserve there, but again, it's not a fight that we, EU fans, can win, by protesting everything. I agree with most of what you are saying about TLJ, but I'm incredibly tired of being negative about it, I've accepted that film for what it is, and I'm trying to appreciate the good things in it. I'm not telling you what to do, and I'm pretty much on your side of the argument, but if I could advise you something, I'd say try to let it go. This is Star Wars now. Damn, this message turned out to be more depressing than I thought, lol.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 25, 2017, 08:59:36 AM
These kind of lazily written Star Wars films are all we're ever going to get. At least with the sequel trilogy.

Well if enough people stop paying to see these movies than maybe Disney might pay enough attention to give it more effort. I don't really see it happening though because everybody and their brother goes to see these movies just because everybody else and their brothers are seeing these movies. Slap Star Wars on the title and do the usual misleading/hype trailer shtick and you bag an easy 200 million.

Even though most of my family and friends disliked the movie, most of them are still going to see IX when it comes out. That's probably true for at least 75% of people who didn't like it.

As for letting it go, yea I get it. I'm getting tired of arguing too. But rather than letting it go by accepting it, I'll just plain let it go. I'll stick to the good ol EU.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Meyer on December 25, 2017, 12:52:11 PM

You mean the previous EU Star Wars stories that Disney categorically wrote off in 2014?  None of that matters in these movies because they never happened.  Specifically with regards to Luke, we've really no idea what his character has been through in this timeline since RotJ.  For all we know he suffered PTSD after the events with Vader and the Emperor!

For me the event at the new Jedi Temple with Kylo shown in the flashback, from multiple perspectives, doesn't seem that far removed from how Luke reacted in the throne room when he realised Vader was considering going after and trying to turn Leia.  Suddenly scared, he lashed out.  Only this time it's a perception of deep darkness from his nephew, whose training he was already concerned about, and possibly a Force vision or premonition, which led to a momentary loss of balance.


No, I don't mean the previous EU stories but the OT. Where the Empire was defeated and freedom restored to the Galaxy. Jump ahead 30 years and the New Republic is destroyed when the FO destroys a single star system after which the FO conquers the Galaxy basically overnight.

As for Luke, it's possible he suffered from PTSD but I don't think it likely. Now I'm not a psychiatrist and there isn't a lot of information to go on but before Luke's encounter with Ben he seems to be doing fine. He's training the future jedi, including his nephew. He only seems to suffer a breakdown after his order is destroyed. I also don't think you can compare the situations that Luke faced with Ben and the one in the Emperor's thorne room. They are completely different in severals aspects.
1. During the battle of Endor Luke is only 23 years old, something I think is often ignored when people discuss about his character.
2. Palpatine has just revealed that Luke and his friends have been played all along and his friends are being killed while Luke watches.
3. Vader threatens to make Leia a servant of evil.
It's very easy to get angry and wanting to stop Vader and Palpatine by any means necessary during that kind of an situation, in my opinion.
As for the Luke/Ben situation:
1. No one is in immediate danger.
2. Luke is far more experienced Jedi.
3. Ben hasn't actually done anything by that point. He hasn't even turned to the dark side yet.

For Luke to take out his lightsaber and ignite it is very much out of character, based on the information we have so far.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Slornie on December 25, 2017, 02:09:05 PM
He got a lot of stick earlier when he made Star Trek: Into Darkness, which was a blatant rip-off/much shittier remake of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. And then did the same thing with The Force Awakens, just rehashing A New Hope. This guy just cannot write an original story to save his life, which is why the majority of both the Star Wars and Star Trek communities can't stand him.
Honestly, I think JJ is treated rather unfairly by a lot of the Star Trek "community".  He was hired to refresh Star Trek for a new generation (recasting TOS was probably Paramount's idea which he had to follow through on), and he did so quite successfully in ST '09.  It just so happens that each generation of Trek fans seems to view their show/movies as the one true Trek and are unwilling to accept other interpretations.  That happened when TNG first turned up, distressing huge numbers of TOS followers, and then again with ENT, and now twice in the last decade first with the JJverse and latterly with Discovery.

Star Trek Into Darkness mirrored (not copied) elements from earlier Star Trek works, but personally I thought that was done tastefully and generally quite well.  Certainly most of the issues I have with the film are of the nitpick variety rather than against the whole.  And despite everyone's hate STID still has to be considered infinitely better than at least four out of the original 10 movies, and probably edges out one or two others as well.


No, I don't mean the previous EU stories but the OT. Where the Empire was defeated and freedom restored to the Galaxy. Jump ahead 30 years and the New Republic is destroyed when the FO destroys a single star system after which the FO conquers the Galaxy basically overnight.
But as Illidan said, we don't know exactly what state the galaxy is in at the start of TFA.  How much of the galaxy does the New Republic control?  I doubt it's as much as we might think, and the First Order must already have been quite a significant power.  Sure the end of the OT had the Emperor and Vader dead, but that's hardly a defeated Empire and a free galaxy.  Even in Legends that was never the end of the Empire.


As for the Luke/Ben situation:
1. No one is in immediate danger.
2. Luke is far more experienced Jedi.
3. Ben hasn't actually done anything by that point. He hasn't even turned to the dark side yet.

For Luke to take out his lightsaber and ignite it is very much out of character, based on the information we have so far.
I think it's quite reasonable to believe that the Force premonition emanating from Ben had a great sense of immediacy to Luke and triggered an involuntary reaction, which then served to fulfil the premonition and push a hurt, scared and confused Kylo towards the darkness Luke sensed.  Hell, if Snoke is as powerful a manipulator of the Force as we're led to believe maybe that premonition was planted in Luke's mind to deliver that very outcome.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 25, 2017, 05:40:47 PM
Well if enough people stop paying to see these movies than maybe Disney might pay enough attention to give it more effort. I don't really see it happening though because everybody and their brother goes to see these movies just because everybody else and their brothers are seeing these movies. Slap Star Wars on the title and do the usual misleading/hype trailer shtick and you bag an easy 200 million.

Even though most of my family and friends disliked the movie, most of them are still going to see IX when it comes out. That's probably true for at least 75% of people who didn't like it.

As for letting it go, yea I get it. I'm getting tired of arguing too. But rather than letting it go by accepting it, I'll just plain let it go. I'll stick to the good ol EU.

Well, I agree with every word you said. EU is the real Star Wars to me, always was, always will be. And no one will ever take it away from us, and that's the best thing about it. I might go and see Episode IX when it comes out, even though I know that the likelyhood of me enjoying it is extremely low, but the one thing that I AM excited about the most without a doubt, is Thrawn's Revenge: Imperial Civil War 2.2! That'll keep my spirits up, regardless of what happens with the film franchise, and whatever Disney puts out as Star Wars. :)

Have a good one, and good luck with whatever you're doing, and don't allow all of this to make you sad. You're right, we will always have OUR Star Wars. And here on this forum, this community will never let it fade away into obscurity. This may be a cheesy phrase, and I've said it before, but the spirit of Star Wars lives in all of us here, and it'll never die. Merry Christmas to you, Turtle225!
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 25, 2017, 06:16:02 PM



I think it's quite reasonable to believe that the Force premonition emanating from Ben had a great sense of immediacy to Luke and triggered an involuntary reaction, which then served to fulfil the premonition and push a hurt, scared and confused Kylo towards the darkness Luke sensed.  Hell, if Snoke is as powerful a manipulator of the Force as we're led to believe maybe that premonition was planted in Luke's mind to deliver that very outcome.

This is not a logical conclusion to draw based on the data we have. Luke does what he does in this film not because his character would, but because bad writing and plot led him to this point. This movie did to Luke Skywalker what GoT show writers did with Stannis, Baelish, Doran and others. Warp a character to suit a poorly written and lacking plot to make room for a new fan favorite so they don't clutter the stage or steal any of their wonder character's shine.

In short Luke doesn't almost kill Ben then run away and hide because Luke would do that, he does it because of beyond shoddy writing that ignores everything his character had done up to that point and his development just to make the new character seem more palatable compared to his 'foul up'
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 25, 2017, 09:42:30 PM
Well, I agree with every word you said. EU is the real Star Wars to me, always was, always will be. And no one will ever take it away from us, and that's the best thing about it. I might go and see Episode IX when it comes out, even though I know that the likelyhood of me enjoying it is extremely low, but the one thing that I AM excited about the most without a doubt, is Thrawn's Revenge: Imperial Civil War 2.2! That'll keep my spirits up, regardless of what happens with the film franchise, and whatever Disney puts out as Star Wars. :)

Have a good one, and good luck with whatever you're doing, and don't allow all of this to make you sad. You're right, we will always have OUR Star Wars. And here on this forum, this community will never let it fade away into obscurity. This may be a cheesy phrase, and I've said it before, but the spirit of Star Wars lives in all of us here, and it'll never die. Merry Christmas to you, Turtle225!

Merry Christmas to you as well, and everyone. I'm not a grouchy goober all of the time, I promise.

#NotMyLuke
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 26, 2017, 02:45:45 AM
But as Illidan said, we don't know exactly what state the galaxy is in at the start of TFA.  How much of the galaxy does the New Republic control?  I doubt it's as much as we might think, and the First Order must already have been quite a significant power.  Sure the end of the OT had the Emperor and Vader dead, but that's hardly a defeated Empire and a free galaxy.  Even in Legends that was never the end of the Empire.
Actually my brother and i read the Last Jedi book guide. I can give officially a responsible answer on how the FO amassed such a large force.
So i will break it down for you:
1. The Emperor had apparently(like in legends) had sent imperials to build weapons labs, establish shipyards, and test weapons in the Unkown Regions. This gives the FO already resources to start off.
2. They took techincal documents for Imperial Black projects. This may explain how they built a weapon like StarKiller Base
3. The FO has been starting "Uprisings" in planets in Wild Space, who find that the NR is being oppressive to them.
4. The FO has been kidnapping children, and also seeking out great warriors, and ex-Imperials to join their cause.
5. They had access to the achieves of the Empire.
6. They had the Eclipse.
7. They had been treating the people they conquer or ruled over rather fairly
8. They were infitrating the NR weaking it from the inside.
9. The NR was disnfracising people at a alariming rate.
10. Arms dealers.

I now think that the NR must have been full of morons and FO spies this entire time.

As for what i think on Luke:
I think Luke would totally freak out if he saw the deaths of all these innoncent people. I mean come one people who wouldnt? How would you feel if you founf out that someone was going to destroy all you worked hard for and kill so many innocent people? Luke is human, he makes mistakes, but this time he fucked up hard. Judging by how he reacted to Vader saying he would corrupt Leia, yeah i could totally see him contemplating killing Kylo Ren. Luke keep in mind is always afraid of losing the things he cares for. Deep down Luke is just a man who is trying to do the right thing but deep down fears creating a monster. It is not bad writing, it is Luke's personal conflict. He knew what happen the last time the jedi council poorly trained a Jedi, that led to DARTH MOTHERFUCKING VADER! Luke fears that returning and he doesnt want to be the one responisble.

BTW if anyone asks
I dont support Rey/Kylo love story. I say i support more of a Rey/Poe love story.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 26, 2017, 09:08:49 AM
Hm... it seems that Hamill actually does like what was done with Luke in TLJ, for those who care about his take.

(https://i.redd.it/vs04wauas3601.png)

Quote
For Luke—the most optimistic character from the original trilogy—to be so cynical now is really stunning. But it’s so much more interesting than being a recycled Obi-Wan.

From an essay Hamill wrote available here: https://parade.com/624594/parade/mark-hamill-on-the-true-meaning-of-the-legacy-of-star-wars/
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 26, 2017, 12:50:42 PM
Hm... it seems that Hamill actually does like what was done with Luke in TLJ, for those who care about his take.

(https://i.redd.it/vs04wauas3601.png)

From an essay Hamill wrote available here: https://parade.com/624594/parade/mark-hamill-on-the-true-meaning-of-the-legacy-of-star-wars/

No, Hamill is not happy with the direction the character took, he has said so in an interview before, funny how he now praises the film but once again says the character direction was not good for him. This was insanely out of character for Luke, which he acknowledges in the interview. He says that he eventually agreed with the new direction the plot NEEDED for the new luke to work(though funny enough I've yet to see any actual creativity and originality out of the 'new' films)

This is not a character developing logically over time or events, this is a character doing a complete 180 to everything he was and developed. Which is not realistic, I've had some major shit go down in my life on three occasions, I've watched other people go through similar crisis on greater and lesser levels. Know what I find? The core of who they are remains consistent. Who and what they are fundamentally adapt ultimately or they die quickly. In short good or bad, the results last about a year to two at the most...not TWO DECADES with ZERO development other than moping. Dramatic shifts in long term behavior do not occur past a few years. These are relatively normal people too without resilience training or having great shocks commonly to them. Luke's actions would be like Churchill abandoning the fight against the Nazis because he felt bad about France. It would be like the FDR just forgetting Pearl harbor and writhing in self pity while a lot of the world suffered Fascism. It simply doesn't make sense. This is an instance of a new and inconsistent plot driving a character and not a character driving the plot by their actions, which again comes to poor writing.
A plot doesn't have to be predictable but it does have to be sensical. Character actions, world building and progression are all interlinked. The past forms the present, the present form the future. I.E what you build off of should directly affect your current state to influence your future. For instance, the OT would be the foundation that this new trilogy is based off of, the set up, motivations and character arcs ultimately have their root in those films. Yet the new films continually insist on building half their plot house not over the OT foundation while still trying desperately to use as much of that foundation for the other half of the plot. This is how you get glaring inconsistencies in characters like Luke(considered murdering nephew for what he hadn't even done), Han(abandoned Leia and his son for at least a decade), Chewie(is totally cool with Han ditching everyone when he was one of the main reasons Han came back in the OT, ignoring Leia after Han died) and even Leia(never tried to bring Han back, let Luke just go, never used the Force to seek him out, ignored her son now being evil until plot required she say something) that directly undermine previous actions and development solely because the present plot requires it to be so. This destabilization is further reflected in the new characters, Fenn is against killing and doesn't want to fight(helps kill tons of his fellow troopers in his escape in TFA, seems to have zero fucks to give about killing his former comrades in this film either) Poe(abandoned BB8 on Jakku in TFA, disobeys orders directly resulting in massive losses for his own forces yet is supposed to be both caring for his own side and a good tactician) Rey(supposed to be naive and inexperienced yet routinely defeats people who should be leagues ahead of her with ease, knows the mind trick, did not have prior training according to this film now. You can't do fish out of water story when said fish is better then every friggen land creature)
This is simply escalating due to bad writing and nonsensical character development coupled with a plot that forces such out of character decisions. That's what bothers me, it's beyond badly written and it shows up constantly detracting from what should have been a great film with good actors, sets, soundtrack and effects.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 26, 2017, 03:23:00 PM
Fenn is against killing and doesn't want to fight(helps kill tons of his fellow troopers in his escape in TFA, seems to have zero fucks to give about killing his former comrades in this film either) Poe(abandoned BB8 on Jakku in TFA, disobeys orders directly resulting in massive losses for his own forces yet is supposed to be both caring for his own side and a good tactician) Rey(supposed to be naive and inexperienced yet routinely defeats people who should be leagues ahead of her with ease, knows the mind trick, did not have prior training according to this film now. You can't do fish out of water story when said fish is better then every friggen land creature)
This is simply escalating due to bad writing and nonsensical character development coupled with a plot that forces such out of character decisions. That's what bothers me, it's beyond badly written and it shows up constantly detracting from what should have been a great film with good actors, sets, soundtrack and effects.
1. Actually as said in journey to the force awakens book and in Aftermath: The FO stormtoopers are use to killing their own comrades. This is a affect of brainwashing which makes the willing to follow orders to the extreme, however Finn did resist that to be fair. I would also like to point out in those scenarios it is life or death for, so he has to kill or he will be killed. Also in a deleted TLJ scene after Finn beats Phasma he tries to convince his former comrades to leave with him saying that Phasma was the one who lowered Starkiller Base's shields which killed their own supporters. While the troopers contemplate whether they should leave with Finn and Rose, Phasma guns them all down before she falls to her "death" (she is probably somehow still alive). Finn's story arc is about him being okay with killing stormtroopers and his former comrades. Finn's story arc is about how he needs to man the fuck up and learn to take one his problems head on, and its about him finding a cause worth fighting for.

2. Poe did not abandon BB8. Poe sacrifice himself so BB8 could escape which resulted in his capture. After he crashes with Finn he escapesand cannot find BB8. He had to leave and find his ship so he could also find BB8, since he left his black X-wing at his home on Yavin 4, and by then he heard from ressitance intelligence that a group had reported thta the FO was looking for the droid which was on the Falcon, then the ressitance was alerted that if was on Takodona which is why Poe went there. Also only about 50 people died in his planned attack on the FO Dreadnaught, compare that to how many people would have died had the cannons on that Dreadnuaght had fired on the ressitance fleet. Keep in mind also that POE WENT IN BY HIMSELF aganist the Dreadnaughts tie fighters, and guns and the resistance fighters only showed up when he said that the guns were disabaled. He risked his life so that the bombers had a fighting chance. Also Vice Admiral Holdo's plan was doom to fail even if DJ had not told the FO that the ressitance was going to use the transports to flee to crait. The reason it would still fail is that the FO would detect that their is no one aboard the *Raddus* then realize the ressitance was using small ships to flee then fired. They also still would have attacked Crait and crushed Ressitance forces. Poe's plan wasnt any better, but at least he was looking out for his people. If Holdo really cared then she would have told him the plan so Finn and Rose could stay aboard and help save as many lives as they could.

3. Rey has lived on a dersert planet full or wreaked rebel, and Imperial starships. She had to fend for herself for the longest time and as we can tell by how long she has been there. She knows how to defend herself, she knows her way around starships. As for her using the Jedi Mind trick:
1. She knows the stories about how Jedi can use the force to influence people.
2. She is not the only charcter who has been able to use the force despite a lack of training. Ezra(season 1-2 Ezra), Del Meeko(he used the force to ressit the powers of Kylo Ren for a bit), Poe Dameron(He unkowingly use the force, his parents had planted one of those anicent force trees that Luke has given Poe's mother, which explain why is he such a incredibly talented pilot) and even Leia(In the shattered Empire comic she reaches out with the force and feels Darht Mauls cold presense in the old Nabbo Hanger) are all examples of charcters who can use the force despite a lack of training.
3. Anyone can tap into the force, it is just that some are better at it then others.
Now as for the Kylo Ren fight thing.
1. Kylo Ren was shot by a wookie crossbow that almost killed him. (He was punching where he was shot at boost his adrenline.)
2. He had been stab by Finn during their fight.
3. My brother mentions that he was literally using the force to slow the bleeding of his wounds(and in a more gross way, keeping his guts from falling out.
4. The Light is in herently stronger than the Darkside. Rey let it flow through her so she could muster the strength to beat EMO REN.
5. she knows how to use various mele weapons.


Aso for why Han and Leia were apart Lord Xizer. Its simpliy that Leia was being a senator then the leader of the ressitance while Han is not really the kind of person who lives a life where he sits in boring meetings or leads militaries. Han is the kind of guy who just loves flying around the galaxy not giving a fuck. And after Ben Solo fell, it crushed Han and Leia's realtionship. Also they are both just simply terrible parents. Ben Solo was also being seeked out by Snoke through the force since he was a child, who was slowly corrupting him.

and as for Luke well as i said eariler.
Actually my brother and i read the Last Jedi book guide. I can give officially a responsible answer on how the FO amassed such a large force.
So i will break it down for you:
1. The Emperor had apparently(like in legends) had sent imperials to build weapons labs, establish shipyards, and test weapons in the Unkown Regions. This gives the FO already resources to start off.
2. They took techincal documents for Imperial Black projects. This may explain how they built a weapon like StarKiller Base
3. The FO has been starting "Uprisings" in planets in Wild Space, who find that the NR is being oppressive to them.
4. The FO has been kidnapping children, and also seeking out great warriors, and ex-Imperials to join their cause.
5. They had access to the achieves of the Empire.
6. They had the Eclipse.
7. They had been treating the people they conquer or ruled over rather fairly
8. They were infitrating the NR weaking it from the inside.
9. The NR was disnfracising people at a alariming rate.
10. Arms dealers.

I now think that the NR must have been full of morons and FO spies this entire time.

As for what i think on Luke:
I think Luke would totally freak out if he saw the deaths of all these innoncent people. I mean come one people who wouldnt? How would you feel if you founf out that someone was going to destroy all you worked hard for and kill so many innocent people? Luke is human, he makes mistakes, but this time he fucked up hard. Judging by how he reacted to Vader saying he would corrupt Leia, yeah i could totally see him contemplating killing Kylo Ren. Luke keep in mind is always afraid of losing the things he cares for. Deep down Luke is just a man who is trying to do the right thing but deep down fears creating a monster. It is not bad writing, it is Luke's personal conflict. He knew what happen the last time the jedi council poorly trained a Jedi, that led to DARTH MOTHERFUCKING VADER! Luke fears that returning and he doesnt want to be the one responisble.

BTW if anyone asks
I dont support Rey/Kylo love story. I say i support more of a Rey/Poe love story.

Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 26, 2017, 04:50:30 PM
1. Actually as said in journey to the force awakens book and in Aftermath: The FO stormtoopers are use to killing their own comrades. This is a affect of brainwashing which makes the willing to follow orders to the extreme, however Finn did resist that to be fair. I would also like to point out in those scenarios it is life or death for, so he has to kill or he will be killed. Also in a deleted TLJ scene after Finn beats Phasma he tries to convince his former comrades to leave with him saying that Phasma was the one who lowered Starkiller Base's shields which killed their own supporters. While the troopers contemplate whether they should leave with Finn and Rose, Phasma guns them all down before she falls to her "death" (she is probably somehow still alive). Finn's story arc is about him being okay with killing stormtroopers and his former comrades. Finn's story arc is about how he needs to man the fuck up and learn to take one his problems head on, and its about him finding a cause worth fighting for.

2. Poe did not abandon BB8. Poe sacrifice himself so BB8 could escape which resulted in his capture. After he crashes with Finn he escapesand cannot find BB8. He had to leave and find his ship so he could also find BB8, since he left his black X-wing at his home on Yavin 4, and by then he heard from ressitance intelligence that a group had reported thta the FO was looking for the droid which was on the Falcon, then the ressitance was alerted that if was on Takodona which is why Poe went there. Also only about 50 people died in his planned attack on the FO Dreadnaught, compare that to how many people would have died had the cannons on that Dreadnuaght had fired on the ressitance fleet. Keep in mind also that POE WENT IN BY HIMSELF aganist the Dreadnaughts tie fighters, and guns and the resistance fighters only showed up when he said that the guns were disabaled. He risked his life so that the bombers had a fighting chance. Also Vice Admiral Holdo's plan was doom to fail even if DJ had not told the FO that the ressitance was going to use the transports to flee to crait. The reason it would still fail is that the FO would detect that their is no one aboard the *Raddus* then realize the ressitance was using small ships to flee then fired. They also still would have attacked Crait and crushed Ressitance forces. Poe's plan wasnt any better, but at least he was looking out for his people. If Holdo really cared then she would have told him the plan so Finn and Rose could stay aboard and help save as many lives as they could.

3. Rey has lived on a dersert planet full or wreaked rebel, and Imperial starships. She had to fend for herself for the longest time and as we can tell by how long she has been there. She knows how to defend herself, she knows her way around starships. As for her using the Jedi Mind trick:
1. She knows the stories about how Jedi can use the force to influence people.
2. She is not the only charcter who has been able to use the force despite a lack of training. Ezra(season 1-2 Ezra), Del Meeko(he used the force to ressit the powers of Kylo Ren for a bit), Poe Dameron(He unkowingly use the force, his parents had planted one of those anicent force trees that Luke has given Poe's mother, which explain why is he such a incredibly talented pilot) and even Leia(In the shattered Empire comic she reaches out with the force and feels Darht Mauls cold presense in the old Nabbo Hanger) are all examples of charcters who can use the force despite a lack of training.
3. Anyone can tap into the force, it is just that some are better at it then others.
Now as for the Kylo Ren fight thing.
1. Kylo Ren was shot by a wookie crossbow that almost killed him. (He was punching where he was shot at boost his adrenline.)
2. He had been stab by Finn during their fight.
3. My brother mentions that he was literally using the force to slow the bleeding of his wounds(and in a more gross way, keeping his guts from falling out.
4. The Light is in herently stronger than the Darkside. Rey let it flow through her so she could muster the strength to beat EMO REN.
5. she knows how to use various mele weapons.


Aso for why Han and Leia were apart Lord Xizer. Its simpliy that Leia was being a senator then the leader of the ressitance while Han is not really the kind of person who lives a life where he sits in boring meetings or leads militaries. Han is the kind of guy who just loves flying around the galaxy not giving a fuck. And after Ben Solo fell, it crushed Han and Leia's realtionship. Also they are both just simply terrible parents. Ben Solo was also being seeked out by Snoke through the force since he was a child, who was slowly corrupting him.

and as for Luke well as i said eariler.

Okay, to quote a certain Wraith, "You're wrong on so many points it may take days to straighten you out."

your first point:
Finn's story is meant to be a take on the failed brainwashing, someone wanting out and not wanting to fight. That is his MO. There is no scene at all in either TFA or in TLJ as deleted ones don't count since they didn't make said cut where Finn shows even minute amounts of remorse for murdering his fellow troopers, shows zero interest in trying to convince them to desert or cherish their lives. His story isn't about manning the fuck up, it's meant to be a story about him yes finding a cause to fight for, but more importantly how his personal aversion to violence/killing fits into this new cause, which the film blatantly ignores in favor of comedy/action for his character.

Your second point:
 Poe does indeed abandon BB8 on Jakku in TFA, he specifically says that they have to go back to jakku while escaping with Finn(leading to their crash) he then completely abandons both Finn and BB8 on the planet(granted he didn't know Finn lived) with full knowledge BB8 was still somewhere on Jakku. He literally just leaves and goes back to base completely abandoning the ORIGINAL reason for him being there in the first place. As you point out the Resistance got intel AFTER this time, which means Poe went back to base after insisting they go back to Jakku instead of jump to said base and subsequently crashing on jakku where he was SUPPOSED to be.
The entire space battle makes very little sense and honestly the Dreadnought didn't seem remotely threatening considering the level of ease it was dealt with. Poe's plan exposed the fleet with lack of star fighter cover.

Your third point:
Passively using the force is nowhere near the same thing as ACTIVELY using it. getting a hunch or a vague feel is nowhere near the level of COMPLETELY dominating someone's mind the very first time you try it solely based off of, "I heard someone did this once." That's like me saying, I heard someone built a nuclear bomb, there fore on my first try I CAN build one. Nowhere does it say the Light is stronger than the Dark, or that the Dark is stronger than the Light. It's two sides of the same coin, with different aspects about it. Funny how a bowcaster bolt kills Stormtroopers in armor hurling them several feet but barely phases an unarmored teen with no knowledge it was about to hit him. That entire scene can be summed up in shitty plot armor, so don't go on about kylo's wound taking a toll on him when he's just apparently not very good at what he does next to mary sue. Rey is somehow a better fighter than both kylo and Luke in spit eof having far less experience in lightsaber combat, is magically stronger than both of them with far more control than either at that age or stage of training. Again there's tapping into the Force and then using the force like a lvl 20 Wizard in D7D with zero negatives.

your last point is just ridiculous, so Han just got bored and drifted off, his son went bad and he and leia never even tried to find out why. never thought, hey let's figure this out, again even if Han decided to take off, Chewie would have done everything to get him to come back as he had done twice before. Leia, Han, Luke and Chewie didn't give up, if they were the type to just kind of not give a shit and quit the Emperor would still be in power, Darth vader would still be evil, Jabba would still have Han and Leia wouldn't have been anything other than an administrator.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 26, 2017, 05:56:21 PM
No, Hamill is not happy with the direction the character took, he has said so in an interview before, funny how he now praises the film but once again says the character direction was not good for him.

And yet he liked the tweet, showing he at minimum supports the general sentiment within.  It wouldn't be the first time I've seen an actor unhappy with the screenplay who changes his mind after seeing the final product.

I'm not going to get back into another argument regarding our personal takes on the character (or the others, which I also disagree with you on).  You think it unrealistic and a betrayal of the character, I disagree completely, and I've given my reasons in previous posts.  We're each allowed our opinions.  This just seemed like news, so I shared it.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 26, 2017, 06:26:41 PM
And yet he liked the tweet, showing he at minimum supports the general sentiment within.  It wouldn't be the first time I've seen an actor unhappy with the screenplay who changes his mind after seeing the final product.

I'm not going to get back into another argument regarding our personal takes on the character (or the others, which I also disagree with you on).  You think it unrealistic and a betrayal of the character, I disagree completely, and I've given my reasons in previous posts.  We're each allowed our opinions.  This just seemed like news, so I shared it.

Fair enough, you're also entitled to your opinions on the matter and while I strongly disagree with them, I respect them and can at least understand how you would have them. We're both civilized, we simply have different points of view. I've given my reasons and you yours.
I shared the quote pic from Hamill for the same reasons more or less you put up your link.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 26, 2017, 06:48:42 PM
Okay, to quote a certain Wraith, "You're wrong on so many points it may take days to straighten you out."

your first point:
Finn's story is meant to be a take on the failed brainwashing, someone wanting out and not wanting to fight. That is his MO. There is no scene at all in either TFA or in TLJ as deleted ones don't count since they didn't make said cut where Finn shows even minute amounts of remorse for murdering his fellow troopers, shows zero interest in trying to convince them to desert or cherish their lives. His story isn't about manning the fuck up, it's meant to be a story about him yes finding a cause to fight for, but more importantly how his personal aversion to violence/killing fits into this new cause, which the film blatantly ignores in favor of comedy/action for his character.

Your second point:
 Poe does indeed abandon BB8 on Jakku in TFA, he specifically says that they have to go back to jakku while escaping with Finn(leading to their crash) he then completely abandons both Finn and BB8 on the planet(granted he didn't know Finn lived) with full knowledge BB8 was still somewhere on Jakku. He literally just leaves and goes back to base completely abandoning the ORIGINAL reason for him being there in the first place. As you point out the Resistance got intel AFTER this time, which means Poe went back to base after insisting they go back to Jakku instead of jump to said base and subsequently crashing on jakku where he was SUPPOSED to be.
The entire space battle makes very little sense and honestly the Dreadnought didn't seem remotely threatening considering the level of ease it was dealt with. Poe's plan exposed the fleet with lack of star fighter cover.

Your third point:
Passively using the force is nowhere near the same thing as ACTIVELY using it. getting a hunch or a vague feel is nowhere near the level of COMPLETELY dominating someone's mind the very first time you try it solely based off of, "I heard someone did this once." That's like me saying, I heard someone built a nuclear bomb, there fore on my first try I CAN build one. Nowhere does it say the Light is stronger than the Dark, or that the Dark is stronger than the Light. It's two sides of the same coin, with different aspects about it. Funny how a bowcaster bolt kills Stormtroopers in armor hurling them several feet but barely phases an unarmored teen with no knowledge it was about to hit him. That entire scene can be summed up in shitty plot armor, so don't go on about kylo's wound taking a toll on him when he's just apparently not very good at what he does next to mary sue. Rey is somehow a better fighter than both kylo and Luke in spit eof having far less experience in lightsaber combat, is magically stronger than both of them with far more control than either at that age or stage of training. Again there's tapping into the Force and then using the force like a lvl 20 Wizard in D7D with zero negatives.

your last point is just ridiculous, so Han just got bored and drifted off, his son went bad and he and leia never even tried to find out why. never thought, hey let's figure this out, again even if Han decided to take off, Chewie would have done everything to get him to come back as he had done twice before. Leia, Han, Luke and Chewie didn't give up, if they were the type to just kind of not give a shit and quit the Emperor would still be in power, Darth vader would still be evil, Jabba would still have Han and Leia wouldn't have been anything other than an administrator.
First off Lord Xizer nice to see someone quoting a certain Wraith. The Wraiths IMO are underrated compared to the rouges
Second off you are completely entitled to your own opinion. I agree that i can find it hard to believe some of the things about certain characters, but i also accept that i need to keep a open mind. Which is why i am okay with certain choices they make. I do also try to build a intrest in this universe, like how I am invested in Poe and Rey getting together and not Rey and EMO REN. i respect your opinion  because you are a person like me entitled to your own thoughts, and also because you have been really nice to me in past conversations.
*Realizes he is just being a kiss ass now*

okay on to countering your counter-points(Counter-Counter-points?)

1st point: Finn's story is about a soldier who due to the experiences of war wants to run and coward from the fight. He was on the wrong side and no longer has a worthy cause worth fighting for, until he joins the Resistance. Their he finds a cause worth fighting for, his friends. Finn's story is about him excepting that he can't run from this fight anymore. That is what Maz Kanata told him when they were in her castle. Finn also didn't have any friends in the FO except for the guy we see get shot dead at the beginning of TFA and Finn also does not want to kill innocent people. I mean this guy generally wants to do the right thing. He has to accept that he has to kill people he once worked with because they are brainwashed physcotic killers who seem him as a traitor.

2nd point: Poe did not abandon BB8. Poe's X-wing was destroyed and if the FO found BB8, game over. Poe sent BB8 out into Jakku making sure the map stays out of the hand of the FO. He stayed behind so BB8 could make his escape, which led to Poe being capture, torture, and mind-fucked by Kylo Ren. Poe then was rescue by Finn who helped. When they crashed on the planet, Poe had no way of tracking BB8 so he needed to return to the resistance.
He was alive on the surface of Jakku. Alive and alone. There was no way of telling if Finn had been as fortunate. More important, where was BB-8?
The droid could take care of himself, he felt. Poe knew if he could just get offworld and reconnect with the Resistance, a way could be found to recover the droid. All he needed was a ship. He’d already stolen one. Could he steal another?
Poe needed a way to contact the ressitance so they could then help him recover BB8 however they got Intel that the droid was on the Falcon then they found out it was on Takodana which is how they found BB8. Also Poe's plan only failed because Finn and Rose fucked it up. They got somone who was piad off by the FO and therefore was given there information. Holdo's plan would have still failed because they would have detected a massive drop in life forms aboard the Raddus then realized what had happened.

3rd point: Ezra wasnt passively using the force. As seen in the short intro video on Ezra he used the force to dodge a tie fighters weponry in a increible display of the use of the force, Leia we dont need to explain, Del literally used the force to ressit Kylo Ren's mind-fucking which is a pretty increible display of power. Rey isnt a Mary Sue, becuase she still screws up, she is still capture by Kylo Ren, and she only one that fight becuase she let the force be her guide while Kylo was attacking like a crazy lunatic. In addition it is also implyied that Snoke may have a hand in that fight, becuase in the novelization it does say she could hear Snoke and that Snoke might be helping her in order forher to replace Kylo as his apprentice. Also Kylo was shot in the lower right abodomin, hile Chewbaca shot stormtoopers eitherin the face or in the upper chest, and also Kylo is a force user and we have seen People in other movies like Luke LOSER THEIR HAND and still be able to walk around a bit.

My Last point: But isnt it true in legends as well that Han and Leia were often apart from each other for various reasons. Hell in legends their is more redciolus things like how Leia was still willing to marry Han after he kidnapped her and took her to a planet under the control of a Imperial warlord, and fucking nightsisters? It is also fiar to believe that Han is not someone who likes poltics or military service, and the same goes for Chewbaca. Over the time of Kylo's birth Han and Leia's marriage was being strand do to leia's commitments to the Senate and the ressitance. Han even blames himself for not being around Ben enough, but also that Ben was with Luke and since Luke traveled around with his Jedi trannies Han and Leia had little contact with him. Also it just makes sense, becuase this is something that happens in real life. To people fall in love, get married, but are separate due to their commitments, and this can effect Children. It isnt out of the ordinary for something like that to happen.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 26, 2017, 07:00:19 PM
What I suspect is likely to be Hamill's last word on the subject...

(https://i.redd.it/a1a4x7p0jc601.jpg)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Mr.Puerto on December 26, 2017, 08:38:55 PM
Fun fact Mark Hamill had creative differences with Lucas as well. Its a very common thing. My opinion OT Luke is the best, then Sequel Luke, then Legends Luke. Legends Luke is just really not true to the character.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 26, 2017, 11:52:40 PM
SO i have a question and i all want to know your thoughts.
Will Rey have a love intrest? If you think so then who will it be?
I am asking this because TLJ has many subtle hints about Rey possibly having a love intrest.

I believe Rey and Poe will fall in love for a few reasons.
1. Finn is out of the picture for both of them.
2. Poe wears his mothers wedding ring around his neck in the movie.
3. What the novelization of TFA said on Rey's "thoughts" on how Poe looks.
4. That meeting they had in TLJ was really awkward.
5. It makes sense.
6. They both have alot in common.


Also THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION!

Why did they hide Adam Drivers abbs? I mean i not saying i want to see them, but he just looked really goofy(also a girl i knew said for her it felt disapointing :) ) I mean Adam Driver is a former Marine and he must be rip as shit based on all the training he did for that amazing fight secene.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 27, 2017, 12:34:35 AM
Why did they hide Adam Drivers abbs? I mean i not saying i want to see them, but he just looked really goofy(also a girl i knew said for her it felt disapointing :) )

Hey, if Rey and Kylo want to have a naked Force chat, I'm all for it. ;) I'd guess it was to avoid any charges of over-sexualizing a character - consider the backlash the film would've received had a Force chat begun while Rey was topless, whether the audience can see anything taboo or not, for treating her as a sex object.  There's a bit more leeway with sexualizing male characters these days, and the "this is uncomfortable, can you put on a shirt?" joke wouldn't have worked as well in reverse.

Or maybe I'm overthinking it - it could be something as simple as the makeup team not being sure how to properly show the scar from the bowcaster bolt, so they decided to just have something covering that area for now.  Or maybe he was judged to look more intimidating with the lower torso still covered?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 27, 2017, 02:38:59 AM
Forever the cynic, I would like to point out that Hamill is probably only changing his tune because Disney is probably up his arse for his original denouncement of his character.

Oh and Poe is subconsciously using the force to be a good pilot? Now I dislike him even more, nice. Wedge was a great pilot (not that OT gives him any screen time) and he had no force.

I know I've kind of dropped out of the debate, but I agree with most of Xizer's latest points. This movie is so badly written.

So far the best thing to come out of the new trilogy is Saturday Night Live's Undercover Boss with Kylo Ren.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Slornie on December 27, 2017, 06:32:03 AM
With regards the treatment of Luke in TLJ and Hamill's evolving thoughts on the matter, it turns out that story arc actually comes from Lucas' own treatment for episode VII before Disney bought in and hired JJ Abrams.  Haters gonna hate but it came from the world builder himself!  Our Only Look at George Lucas’ Vision for the ‘Star Wars’ Sequel Trilogy (http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-sequel-trilogy/)


The entire space battle makes very little sense and honestly the Dreadnought didn't seem remotely threatening considering the level of ease it was dealt with. Poe's plan exposed the fleet with lack of star fighter cover.
Agreed. This was one of the worst parts of the movie for me (fortunately it got better later).  However it does demonstrate, once again, that over-confidence common to many Imperial officers, going all the way back to Tarkin and Admiral Motti in ANH.


Funny how a bowcaster bolt kills Stormtroopers in armor hurling them several feet but barely phases an unarmored teen with no knowledge it was about to hit him. That entire scene can be summed up in shitty plot armor, so don't go on about kylo's wound taking a toll on him when he's just apparently not very good at what he does next to mary sue.  Rey is somehow a better fighter than both kylo and Luke in spit eof having far less experience in lightsaber combat, is magically stronger than both of them with far more control than either at that age or stage of training. Again there's tapping into the Force and then using the force like a lvl 20 Wizard in D7D with zero negatives.
Hang on now. You can't arbitrarily ignore plot points you don't like and then use it's absence to claim Rey is a "mary sue".  Kylo's significant injuries prior to his fight with Rey, which are clearly shown on screen, have huge bearing on how that was conducted.  For most of the fight his weakened state is the only reason she was able to stay in the game, until that moment when she opened to the Force and let it guide her actions.  And Force-augmented reactions has often been shown as one of the most common manifestations even in the untrained (see Anakin's podracing).

TLJ shows clearly the huge disparity between Rey and Kylo's combat skill in the throne room scene against the royal guard.  For every single guard Rey took on, Kylo was fighting three at once.  And at no point was Rey superior to Luke during their sparring; he disarmed or blocked her moves multiple times before she summoned the lightsaber (a sign of frustration?).
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 27, 2017, 06:53:50 AM
And Force-augmented reactions has often been shown as one of the most common manifestations even in the untrained (see Anakin's podracing).

But hasn't Anakin podraced many times before the race we see in TPM? I thought it was specifically stated that he had experience in it. And Sebulba treats him as a rival, meaning that they faced each other before. So much so that he even sabotages Anakin's vehicle before the race, which is something you would do only to someone who's skill you are wary of.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Slornie on December 27, 2017, 07:16:54 AM
From Phantom Menace:
Quote
ANAKIN : Have you ever seen a Podrace?
QUI-GON : They have Podracing on Malastare. Very fast, very dangerous.
ANAKIN : I'm the only human who can do it.

SHMI looks askance at her son.

ANAKIN : (Cont'd) Mom, what? I'm not bragging. It's true. Watto says he's never heard of a human doing it.
QUI-GON : You must have Jedi reflexes if you race Pods.

And then later Qui-Gon tests Anakin's blood for midichlorians affinity to the Force.

There's also this bit:
Quote
KITSTER : (to Anakin) This is so wizard! I'm sure you'll do it this time, Annie.
PADME : Do what?
KITSTER : Finish the race, of course!
PADME : You've never won a race?
ANAKIN : Well...not exactly...
PADME : Not even finished?!
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 27, 2017, 07:59:50 AM
Forever the cynic, I would like to point out that Hamill is probably only changing his tune because Disney is probably up his arse for his original denouncement of his character.

There is zero evidence of this, and it isn't even necessary: the movie is doing just fine at the box office regardless of what Hamill says for or against it.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 27, 2017, 08:14:50 AM
There is zero evidence of this, and it isn't even necessary: the movie is doing just fine at the box office regardless of what Hamill says for or against it.

Of course it is. It didn't have any major titles to compete against, it's the holiday season and it's been easily established that people will go watch something with a familiar title whether it is decent or paltry. There is a fairly high drop off rate though in it's second week and beyond.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 27, 2017, 11:56:58 AM
Oh and Poe is subconsciously using the force to be a good pilot? Now I dislike him even more, nice. Wedge was a great pilot (not that OT gives him any screen time) and he had no force.
So far the best thing to come out of the new trilogy is Saturday Night Live's Undercover Boss with Kylo Ren.
While i agree that the SNL undercover boss thing is amazing i say that best thing to come out of this trilogy is the fact we have new movies.

Also really? Dude they have explained this before. Everyone has access to the force. It flows through every being (well almost if we talk legends) and while some people don't tap into it like Luke, Rey, Kylo, or Vader, it still can impact them. Remember when Han Solo and obi Wan were arguing about luck? That was the whole point of that. People can used the force, but the force manifests itself in different ways for people. For instance, Wedge, Poe, and Han Solo are great pilots, but the point is made that since any living being can tap into the force, but it isn't like they can mind trick pilots into suiciding. The force guides their destinys and how they are as people. That is why the Rebellion always says may the force be with you. However i will point out that some people are just inherently stronger adept in the force, like Kylo Ren, or Rey. That is just how the force works. The force works in mysterious ways and i like it when it mysterious.



AS FOR THE MYSTERY OF SHIRTLESS KYLO REN!
I still cant find a answer. Maybe our Emperor Corey can answer for us? OH GREAT COREY! We call upon you for the answer to the question.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 27, 2017, 02:40:35 PM
Of course it is. It didn't have any major titles to compete against, it's the holiday season and it's been easily established that people will go watch something with a familiar title whether it is decent or paltry. There is a fairly high drop off rate though in it's second week and beyond.

There is always a drop off after the opening weekend.  It is still the top grossing film of the year, and this does not at all dispute my contention that there is zero evidence that Disney is pressuring Hamill or others regarding what they say about it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/?yr=2017&p=.htm
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 27, 2017, 05:03:06 PM
There is always a drop off after the opening weekend.  It is still the top grossing film of the year, and this does not at all dispute my contention that there is zero evidence that Disney is pressuring Hamill or others regarding what they say about it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/?yr=2017&p=.htm

Sometimes you sound like you are a Disney employee, lol. All companies who own rights of big film franchises would protect the secrecy surrounding their films, as well as the films' reputations, prior to, or shortly after release, and regardless of the box office success or critical acclaim. It's absolutely safe to assume that Hamill was at the very least politely notified to not undermine the film in interviews, etc., considering how prominently he was doing it ever since the first trailer for TLJ was released.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on December 27, 2017, 05:21:20 PM
From Phantom Menace:
And then later Qui-Gon tests Anakin's blood for midichlorians affinity to the Force.

There's also this bit:

I have totally forgotten the second part, lol. It makes no sense whatso-fucking-ever that Sebulba would then sabotage his pod, when it's clearly overkill to someone who is yet to finish a race. But it's the Phantom Menace we are talking about here, a brilliantly written film, so I shouldn't really be taken aback by the inconsistencies, should I.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 27, 2017, 07:30:49 PM
Sometimes you sound like you are a Disney employee, lol. All companies who own rights of big film franchises would protect the secrecy surrounding their films, as well as the films' reputations, prior to, or shortly after release, and regardless of the box office success or critical acclaim. It's absolutely safe to assume that Hamill was at the very least politely notified to not undermine the film in interviews, etc., considering how prominently he was doing it ever since the first trailer for TLJ was released.

There is a difference between being politely notified of a request to shut up from marketing (and if he's not violating an NDA a request is all they could give) and being "up his arse" on the subject to the point that he's being effectively forced to retract and revise previously stated opinions.  Any such issues would have been handled long before release since, as you say, he'd been vocal about his take for some time - now, over a week after release, is the least useful time for Disney to try to come down hard on him.

Frankly, I find this take somewhat insulting of Hamill - he's not in a position where he needs to worry about staying in Disney's good graces, so why assume he'd just buckle under and play their game rather than be honest with his own opinion?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 27, 2017, 10:58:01 PM
I would honestly like to drop the whole Mark Hamil thing, because it has been talk to death. MY only final comment is that this is almost identical to Harrison Ford being pissed they didn't kill of Han Solo.
Now i actually want to talk about the movie.

so i saw TLJ again
and i still think its a solid movie, and seeing it a second time makes me appreate it more
Rewatching it made me realize a few things
1. Phasma won tha fight and she only was "killed" because Finn somehow landed on a elavator.
2. That secene with Luke staring down the FO was badass
3. Yeah.... Poe and Rey did have something happen there... it was clear. I will stand by and say these two have chemistry. CHALLENGE ME IF YOU DARE!
4. Poe did abosultely nothing wrong( i will defend this point to the fucking end)
5. Kylo is a more likeable villian.
6. Rey is defintely not a Mary Sue. Ben Solo was taking on three guards while she was having trouble with one
7. Poe Dameron is a badass.
8. I like the ressitance more than the FO
9. I for once am rooting for the rebel group in star wars



Hey, if Rey and Kylo want to have a naked Force chat, I'm all for it. ;) I'd guess it was to avoid any charges of over-sexualizing a character - consider the backlash the film would've received had a Force chat begun while Rey was topless, whether the audience can see anything taboo or not, for treating her as a sex object.  There's a bit more leeway with sexualizing male characters these days, and the "this is uncomfortable, can you put on a shirt?" joke wouldn't have worked as well in reverse.
Funny you mention it. Carrie Fisher, Oscar Isac, John Boyega, and Daisy Ridley in a interview with some talk show (this was before TFA released) a had some funny coments on that. Carrie Fisher states to Daisy Ridley that she will end up with people having masterbation fantansies and various "other things" It is rather entertaining because it is true. Slave Leia literally turned Leia into more of sex object then she already was. Trust me though it will only get worse overtime :)

The most likely reasons are either:
A: Adam Driver wasnt fully on board with showing his abbs.
B: The makeup to make the big scar where Kylo was shot would take time.
C: They just didnt care.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 28, 2017, 06:33:21 AM
Funny you mention it. Carrie Fisher, Oscar Isac, John Boyega, and Daisy Ridley in a interview with some talk show (this was before TFA released) a had some funny coments on that. Carrie Fisher states to Daisy Ridley that she will end up with people having masterbation fantansies and various "other things" It is rather entertaining because it is true. Slave Leia literally turned Leia into more of sex object then she already was. Trust me though it will only get worse overtime :)

In truth, this is a warning that should probably be given to most actors/actresses, especially those that are in the upper percentiles when it comes to physical attractiveness - good-looking famous people of any gender are going to end up being the subject of crushes no matter how they are presented to audiences.  Even many who aren't considered conventionally attractive will have to deal with such to a lesser degree simply because fame and talent are attractive in their own rights (though this group will also have to deal with a significant amount of body shaming, as will any past/current hotties who stop being considered hotties eventually, like Carrie Fisher, and that degradation of status over time also should be warned of).  Anyone looking to enter a career that puts them in the limelight is going to need to be prepared for the entire range of reactions to their physical appearance - it's definitely arguable that they shouldn't have to be, but the reality is they do need to be; we humans are a superficial sort in many ways.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: turtle225 on December 28, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
3. Yeah.... Poe and Rey did have something happen there... it was clear. I will stand by and say these two have chemistry. CHALLENGE ME IF YOU DARE!
4. Poe did abosultely nothing wrong( i will defend this point to the fucking end)
6. Rey is defintely not a Mary Sue. Ben Solo was taking on three guards while she was having trouble with one
7. Poe Dameron is a badass.

Rey is definitely still a Mary Sue. She shouldn't be able to fight the guards (who have probably trained for years), period. And she doesn't actually struggle in the fight until the last guard, which is also when Kylo is struggling with his last guard because of the rule of drama.

I also really dislike Poe, sure he's a badass I guess but that's really his entire character. He's overly reckless and an amazing pilot and he always wins, the end. Saying he did nothing wrong is a bit silly since he blatantly disobeys orders and gets most of the fighters killed. I'm with him for going against Holdo later but that entire plot line is trash anyway.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 28, 2017, 02:19:34 PM
Rey is definitely still a Mary Sue. She shouldn't be able to fight the guards (who have probably trained for years), period. And she doesn't actually struggle in the fight until the last guard, which is also when Kylo is struggling with his last guard because of the rule of drama.

I also really dislike Poe, sure he's a badass I guess but that's really his entire character. He's overly reckless and an amazing pilot and he always wins, the end. Saying he did nothing wrong is a bit silly since he blatantly disobeys orders and gets most of the fighters killed. I'm with him for going against Holdo later but that entire plot line is trash anyway.
Rey got the massive cut on her arm from one of the elite guard. Rey only killed the guard because she dropped her Light saber and then grabbed it and slice the guard twice. Keep in mind for every 1 guard Rey killed Ben Solo killed 3. Also Rey character arc is that she is a nobody becoming a something. As stated in TLJ guide she was just a scavenger, who had a stick she used to fight with, spent time climbing through wreak ships and she also used some old Imperial flight training simulators. Snoke's guards have almost no information other than that they were trained in a basic combat, but were given tough armor and weapons.

Also if Poe didn't attack that dreadnaught then the Raddus would have been bombed by those canons and the FO still would have caught them useing hyperspace tracking. Theroricattly the FO Dreadnaught would have followed the fleet and engaged them. THe sacrfice was worth it, those people gave there lives so that ship couldnt fuck up the Ressitance. Keep in mind Poe Went on a suicide mission where he could have died so the bombers had a chance.

People respected him for thar descicion because it was smart and it cost the FO another good officer who understood what the rebels were trying to do.(they are stuck with morons like HUX and KYLO)
I will admit though it was cool seeing rebels shoot at each other just my Opionion.

Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: GreyStar on December 29, 2017, 09:36:51 AM
I’m not even going to address the dozen old EU nitpicks from the first part of the post (all of the cloaking devices in old EU were destroyed and hyperspacing tracking could be done by an R2D2 unit, there), or really anything else.

I’m just going to say that I’m glad this movie got rid of all of Episode 7’s “mystery box” crap with Rey’s parents and Snoke to turn Rey and Kylo into actually decent characters. I argue Rey is a mary sue in TFA (the title doesn’t help), but in TLJ she has actual difficulties doing what she needs to do, and there’s a struggle. The outcome is more or less predetermined, but it’s a good story never the less with her.

Oh and Kylo Ren isn’t as ridiculous in this movie, so I’m happy with that.

On the other hand, TLJ has probably ruined the overall trilogy in some way. I’m not sure how, but when 9 comes out and well, I don’t put much stock in JJ, it’ll probably be like 8 never happened and thus we get a really awkward overall sequel trilogy.

Actually, on second thought, there’s three things from the first page I wanted to address. Turtle225’s points.

1. Kylo still idolizing Darth Vader. To give two rather basic examples, in the real world, people still idolize leaders who betrayed their own causes at the very end. Plenty of people root for Darth Vader despite his apperances as Anakin Skywalker in the prequels and his redemption at the end of RotJ. They admire a ruthless, ordered rule. We even had a thread debating Galatic Empire terrorism versus Galatic New Republic terrorism, and plenty of people chose the Empire. But this is fictional, and so some could ignore it. However, Neo Nazis still hold up the Third Reich as a perfect world, and idolize Hilter despite A. Him being of Jewish descent (a hypocrsisy not unlike worshiping Vader as a Sith). B. Him commiting suicide and failing his goals in the end due to paranioa and madness effectively strangulating his ability to reason.
2. Rebuilding the Rebellion from a dozen people on the Falcon. To give a more low key example, in America there have been plenty of people who came from nothing, created a company, lost it all, and rebuilt the organization themselves to suceed on the second try. There have been others who never suceeded on that second try due to huge amounts of debt, but it is possible to rebuild an organization out of nearly nothing.
3. Luke’s instinct leading him to strike down Ben. Yes an utter bastardization of Luke Skywalker from Episode 6, but you have to keep a few things in mind. Luke saw all the evil Vader and Sidious had done to the galaxy, blowing up planets, killing families, slaughtering not only Luke’s friends in the Rebellion, but his mentor, his family, and his sister’s home planet. In every way of his life, Luke was defined by the evil of the Sith. So when he saw a possible future where Ben continued that same dark legacy, his instinct goaded him into doing whatever was nessecary to prevent it. The same instinct Palpatine goaded him into using in RotJ to open him up to the dark side. He resisted, of course, just as he did in Episode6, but it did have consquence, just like how in Episode 6 it left him open to the dark side.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 29, 2017, 11:40:53 PM
People on the discord apparently are really sympathetic with the FO which confuses and alarms me.
one person said:
They went to bring back order and stabillity and prop up the economy if their planets, have a population that loves their leadership and an army that believes in the cause and is extremely valuable and well trained
Now how they behave to everyone else that opposes them thats another matter
But in a galaxy of quadrillions killing a million people is like killing one person on earth(edited)
So the ones that say the first order is genociding everyone think of how many lives were saved by destroying hosnian prime instead of conventionally invading the new republic
Its like if the US could force japan to surrender with a few nukes before they started fighting on the pacific, saving millions of lives. Ending the war with only some thousands of casualties on the other side and you having 0 causalties. People would love you for it lol
The empire was cruel when it didnt need to and extremely corrupted. The first order is what the empire should have been
The citizens of the first order must have the best standard of life in the galaxy lol.

The elite there never had. In the original trilogy alderaan was considered one of the obly planets in the galaxy where most of its citizens lived a good life
Thats from the leia novel. That means the rest werent like that. Im not saying they werent advanced, just that for every rich person you see in the core world, there are 10 poor
The first order in the phasma novel states that it makes sure there is no major inequality and all its citizens are mostly equal in quality of life
Also about being inept, the first order hasnt lost any battle on screen as far as i know other than the battle for starkiller base, where they were winning and obly lost because the whole planet exploded.

Sure in the last jedi they made mistakes, but as the visual dictionary states, that was only the small first wave in the assautl with many more coming, and even with these mistakes which are nothing compared to the bigger picture ( a galaxy wide assault winning on all fronts) they managed to win in the end.

Hux looked like a fool in the last jedi but in the novels he is a mastermind. And even in the movie he still won at the end
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 30, 2017, 01:52:59 AM
There is always a drop off after the opening weekend.  It is still the top grossing film of the year, and this does not at all dispute my contention that there is zero evidence that Disney is pressuring Hamill or others regarding what they say about it.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/?yr=2017&p=.htm

Right, the guy only comes out and says he flat out disagreed with the direction of the character and had to pretend he was playing someone else, but then magically after people start massively putting that up after a few days I'm sure his newfound praise for the film, you'll notice he still never says he agrees with the character change itself, only that it's for the story to be pushed out of the comfort zone that is good. I'm SURE Disney didn't have anything to do with that considering it owns two broadcast companies and has ties to a lot of the voice acting business that Hamill is actually most known for. I'm absolutely positive that they didn't put one tiny bit of pressure on him to to praise their new cash cow.

And as to your earlier comment, i didn't arbitrarily pick plot points on Mary Sue Rey, never been off Jakku since borderline infancy/VERY early childhood, somehow speaks Wookie, can fix the Falcon before Han, can FLY the Falcon all by herself when she's never even FLOWN before, annihilates Ren by just sort of 'hmm Imma focus now on force stuff' therefore win, does a perfect mind trick with zero training, and for all your talk of Ren being on another level in this film it's not even remotely close to the truth the fact she has some basic self taught staff training and about a week with Luke and she's disarming the most powerful jedi Master in the galaxy, ninja turtling Red guards and her 'struggles' are usually about 30 seconds of mild frustration followed by just getting it. Rey's not a character, she's a bloody macguffin designed to appeal to the female demographic. Which again is unfortunate because Daisy Ridley is a great actress whose talents are not used by this writing. Kinda like what they did to Gwendoline Christie in TFA and this film. It's very frustrating because I like the actors/actresses and they deliver strong performances, but the writing is beyond shit man, I'm talking last season Game of Thrones level of phoned in.

You have characters who routinely contradict the very establishment and development they went through in prior films like Luke contemplating murdering his sleeping nephew over something he hadn't even done, then running away to a nearly 20 odd year pity party without trying to fix anything as well as utterly nonsensical forced conflict with Poe and the vice admiral purely over her withholding information for no reason just to FORCE conflict. The film clearly wants to pander to nostalgia but also wants to be shocking and nuanced while not realizing these goals contradict each other. You can't hearken back to the feel of characters from the OT while simultaneously having them not act like those characters due to their nonsensical actions(leia NOT trying to find Luke in the Force in spite of their bond, nor trying to bring her son back, Luke contemplating murder for possible darkside when he went through hell to try and redeem his dad because he sensed a little good, Han ditching Leia for nearly 20 years and Chewie being absolutely cool with it. Then you have build up with zero pay off, Snoke has no real point to the film for what he contributes plot wise, The First Order can bombard things from Space...but needs a laser battering ram, Fenn is built up to be this torn character who hates fighting, but seems to have zero issue with killing his former stormtrooper comrades, Phasma, I mean shit, you have gwendoline christie's acting talents and a very interesting build up of her and Fenn..and it ultimately leads to nothing of substance, you've got Leia dues ex machina when her death could have had very great potential for Ben's character, speaking of which Ben's entire Dark Side turn an basically be attributed to waking up and seeing the good guy considering murdering him, something Luke would never do even as a youth, much less as an older and more wise man. Then Fenn's attempted big sacrifice, countered by his (gf, friend, associate?) undercuts the point of him willing to sacrifice himself for his new friends...by her trying to sacrifice herself for him to prevent him from sacrificing himself for them because her reasons...were different in her eyes.
This is what happens when you have bad writing, your characters contradict themselves and their motivations and have to adapt to the plot instead of the plot adapting to the actions of characters driving it. It badly hurts the film which has good performances from the actors/actresses, decent effects and soundtrack.
It's very similar to what Game of Thrones has become, all spectacle and no substance. Are the actions scenes cool? Yes, but so was the fight between Batman and Superman in that otherwise very forced and badly written movie. That's what I'm getting at, something shouldn't get a free pass because it's SW or any title, pointing out flaws in a film and having that opinion out there is vital to progressing film. I don't want a fancy SW, I want an original and creative one with a lot of actual effort going into the writing and consistency. I want the charisma of the new cast to get the writing and plot they deserve and we as fans also deserve. I don't want Disney to just make a film to grab quick cash, I want them to tug on heartstrings, to dare to go beyond the cliche Imp v Reb, I want Disney to actually use it's vast resource3s to give all SW fans the film they deserve.
It's like seeing people happy to eat crumbs off the floor when on the table is a full sandwich, I want people to have that sandwich!
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 30, 2017, 02:04:23 AM
Right, the guy only comes out and says he flat out disagreed with the direction of the character and had to pretend he was playing someone else, but then magically after people start massively putting that up after a few days I'm sure his newfound praise for the film, you'll notice he still never says he agrees with the character change itself, only that it's for the story to be pushed out of the comfort zone that is good. I'm SURE Disney didn't have anything to do with that considering it owns two broadcast companies and has ties to a lot of the voice acting business that Hamill is actually most known for. I'm absolutely positive that they didn't put one tiny bit of pressure on him to to praise their new cash cow.

Your sarcasm aside, the facts remain that there is not actual evidence of any pressure being brought to bear, merely supposition; that Hamill is a guy who is going to be capable of finding work just fine regardless of what Disney thinks of him (were it Ridley or Boyega this would be very different); and that you apparently think he'd be willing to bow to such pressure.  Personally, I've got a higher opinion of Hamill than that.

The rest of your post is ground already tread half a dozen times over in this thread, and I'm done repeating myself.  You hated the movie?  Fair enough.  I saw it again last night and liked it even more than I did the first time, and I'd be quite satisfied with more just like it in ep. IX. ;)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 30, 2017, 02:47:31 AM
Guys no offense but can we serious stop beating a dead horse? I want to actually talk about things in the movie like the force, or the Resistance. I know we are all very divided on the film, but can we stop talking about the whole Mark Hamli thing? I want to actually focus on the plot and what this could mean for episode 9.

For instance let me start the conversation:
Is it me or does Rey and Poe's look at each make it really obiovus something is going on between them. I mean Rey did basically tell Ben Solo at the end to "Fuck off" so maybe now she is looking for compiaonship and since Finn is with another girl and in TFA novelization she says Poe is really really Handsome then i think it is obvious where they are going. Then again JJ could just fuck up this important point.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 30, 2017, 04:07:50 AM
I'm totally fine with a Rey/Poe relationship, and I'm somewhat expecting something to happen there just from their introduction at the end of TLJ - it reeked of "nice to meet you, sexy awesome person I've only heard good things about" from both sides.  I don't know that such a relationship is really needed for either of their characters, though, and it's always possible that it will be badly handled, so if they're going to do it they need to make sure it feels right - especially if they go the route of having us come into ep. IX with them already together, rather than letting us see the start of the relationship.

edit: And my last word on the Mark Hamill discussion is simply his own words:

(https://i.redd.it/ooob7jeqey601.jpg)

Anyone who wants to call Hamill a liar is free to do so, but I'm done arguing the topic.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Mr.Puerto on December 30, 2017, 02:49:56 PM
I'm totally fine with a Rey/Poe relationship, and I'm somewhat expecting something to happen there just from their introduction at the end of TLJ - it reeked of "nice to meet you, sexy awesome person I've only heard good things about" from both sides.  I don't know that such a relationship is really needed for either of their characters, though, and it's always possible that it will be badly handled, so if they're going to do it they need to make sure it feels right - especially if they go the route of having us come into ep. IX with them already together, rather than letting us see the start of the relationship.

edit: And my last word on the Mark Hamill discussion is simply his own words:

(https://i.redd.it/ooob7jeqey601.jpg)

Anyone who wants to call Hamill a liar is free to do so, but I'm done arguing the topic.

Pali, you already know that this isn't a good answer for the people who those accusations they'll think whatever they want to think even if its irrational lol. But I'm on your side with it.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 30, 2017, 03:06:04 PM
I'm totally fine with a Rey/Poe relationship, and I'm somewhat expecting something to happen there just from their introduction at the end of TLJ - it reeked of "nice to meet you, sexy awesome person I've only heard good things about" from both sides.  I don't know that such a relationship is really needed for either of their characters, though, and it's always possible that it will be badly handled, so if they're going to do it they need to make sure it feels right - especially if they go the route of having us come into ep. IX with them already together, rather than letting us see the start of the relationship.
See i thought somewhat of the samething. I think just the awkardness of that meeting, and the way it open said it all. i mean even in TFA novelization Rey sees Poe and she describes him as a very handsome man, and that she liked his face. I mean but you are right they could totally ignore it, but also you could argue that if their is a time gap then they could use comics and books to fill in that gap, like with Han and Leia. Personally i would be pissed if JJ does a complete 180 on Poe's character. Their is also alot of things Rey and Poe have in common. You could argue also Rey doesnt have Finn anymore so why not? Poe and Rey are very likeable characters and both have the most character development in TLJ. Poe is also a bit of a Smuggler, lover/fighter guy like Han Solo.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 30, 2017, 06:01:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE2at2Wo9sU

Ah seems someone decided to put a Rey Filter over Luke's old role. Perhaps this should visually explain a bit of my basic detesting of Rey as a...I want to say character...but that would imply she was a character and not a demographic check box...kinda similar to the Resistance Vice Admiral Strong Independent woman.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 30, 2017, 06:08:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJRw56cOVw
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 30, 2017, 06:45:42 PM
I count myself fortunate that I'm never going to understand why some people feel the need to let out these unhinged rants about a movie they didn't like.  I guess Slornie was right - haters gonna hate.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 30, 2017, 11:51:05 PM
Ehhh Rey got her ass kicked a bit by the Preatorian Guards(Everytime i say their names i think of Preator 2s) and if she was truly a Mary Sue then she should have been able to resist Snoke and Kill him herself, and not Rely on Emo Ren.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 31, 2017, 07:00:28 AM
Ehhh Rey got her ass kicked a bit by the Preatorian Guards(Everytime i say their names i think of Preator 2s) and if she was truly a Mary Sue then she should have been able to resist Snoke and Kill him herself, and not Rely on Emo Ren.

I've been coming to the conclusion lately that this is another one of those arguments that almost never goes anywhere - either someone thinks she's too perfect, or they don't, and it's a very rare thing in my experience to actually change someone's mind on the topic.  I'd never even heard the term before the reaction to Rey after TFA came out.  Personally, I honestly don't really care; if her journey is enjoyable and her growth handled well, her skill-set isn't likely to bother me.  For me, it's the emotions the journey brings out in me that matter for Star Wars far more than how cohesive or realistic a universe I'm getting.  If I want hard sci-fi, I'll watch The Expanse.  If I want soft sci-fi, I'll watch Star Trek.  If I want space fantasy, I watch Star Wars, and space fantasy is allowed to play a bit loose with the rules.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: GreyStar on December 31, 2017, 01:21:54 PM
I've been coming to the conclusion lately that this is another one of those arguments that almost never goes anywhere - either someone thinks she's too perfect, or they don't, and it's a very rare thing in my experience to actually change someone's mind on the topic.  I'd never even heard the term before the reaction to Rey after TFA came out.  Personally, I honestly don't really care; if her journey is enjoyable and her growth handled well, her skill-set isn't likely to bother me.  For me, it's the emotions the journey brings out in me that matter for Star Wars far more than how cohesive or realistic a universe I'm getting.  If I want hard sci-fi, I'll watch The Expanse.  If I want soft sci-fi, I'll watch Star Trek.  If I want space fantasy, I watch Star Wars, and space fantasy is allowed to play a bit loose with the rules.

The arguement on Rey being a Mary Sue doeem’t help if one decides to differentiate her character from TFA and TLJ. From my perspective, there’s no way to argue that in TFA she’s not a Mary Sue. But in TLJ, I argue that she isn’t one. Character overall? Stupidly powerful Mary Sue due to TFA.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 31, 2017, 01:56:14 PM
well once again JJ's fault for incompetence
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on December 31, 2017, 03:54:34 PM
I count myself fortunate that I'm never going to understand why some people feel the need to let out these unhinged rants about a movie they didn't like.  I guess Slornie was right - haters gonna hate.

As I personally count myself fortunate that I don't eagerly accept a film handed out simply due to it's title and trying to appease every demographic. The new film series suffers from late GoT syndrome. It's all about the spectacle, jingle the keys in front of people and slap a title on it they are familiar with and ride that cash cow into the sunset. Why put any actual effort into it? People will watch and praise it because the majority of people have attention spans and depth on par with the average goldfish. If it's flashy and has the attractive people making quips what else do we need?

Hey women, watch the film we have strong independent women in main roles...sure one donesn't seem qualified, another spends 90% of her time unconscious and the last is about a compelling as a rock since she never works for anything and starts at near max level but look we have WOMEN! Hey African Americans and Asians, we got your demographic here too, sure we don't develop either character's motivation well and one of you is utterly pointless and contradicts your own words but you're in the film, see we get it! Want new SW without having to think? We got you bro! No more politics, no more explanations, zero world building! Just that good ole Empire vs Rebels with new effects complete with token nostalgia because look we have Han, Chewie, Luke and Leia! I mean sure they don't even remotely resemble their former selves with their actions but it's okay, they're in the film see we checked that box too! just ignore the vast idiotic character actions, the contradictory motivations and jarring transitions while we pretend to go dark but instead saturate the movie with discount Marvel quips! Look Look! Shiny! New SW! Two to three films a year until your sick of the mediocre cash grabs and we move on to get your money with the next mass produced gig!

So I'm sorry, am i supposed to love something poorly written, poorly directed and that is clearly not trying to be anything other than a 'check box for everyone' Star Wars? If I am paying for something, if it bills itself as new and creatively original while supposedly building on the mythos already established then I'm going to fucking hold them to that.

But then I guess it's called opium for the masses for a reason, the masses tend to just go with things that distract them easily enough.

Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on December 31, 2017, 04:30:39 PM
My post was directed more at whoever made the second video you posted, Xizer, than you specifically.

My point is that in the end it is just a movie - why get so worked up about it?  Worst case is that you've wasted fifteen bucks.  I loathed AotC and STID, but I don't feel the need to give long rants about how terrible I thought they were, or how stupid or simple-minded people who liked them must be.  I just accept that different strokes please different folks and move on.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on December 31, 2017, 10:28:36 PM
So... lets talk about what we think this movie means for episode 9
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on January 01, 2018, 12:44:31 AM
My post was directed more at whoever made the second video you posted, Xizer, than you specifically.

My point is that in the end it is just a movie - why get so worked up about it?  Worst case is that you've wasted fifteen bucks.  I loathed AotC and STID, but I don't feel the need to give long rants about how terrible I thought they were, or how stupid or simple-minded people who liked them must be.  I just accept that different strokes please different folks and move on.

That's alright, I was out of line. Of course people are different and have different ideals on what constitutes good entertainment. I have to admit I can be condescending more than I would like.
Too much similarity to Saruman when it comes to too much faith in my own knowledge over others and that bleeds over into contempt when it seems others don't see what I see as obvious. It is elitism and uncalled for. My apologies.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on January 01, 2018, 12:53:33 AM
That's alright, I was out of line. Of course people are different and have different ideals on what constitutes good entertainment. I have to admit I can be condescending more than I would like.
Too much similarity to Saruman when it comes to too much faith in my own knowledge over others and that bleeds over into contempt when it seems others don't see what I see as obvious. It is elitism and uncalled for. My apologies.

There is more self-awareness shown in this single post than I generally see in a week's worth of browsing the Internet.  We're good. :)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on January 01, 2018, 02:37:15 AM
There is more self-awareness shown in this single post than I generally see in a week's worth of browsing the Internet.  We're good. :)

Right back at ya buddy. I do have a couple thoughts on how the film might have been improved, in my opinion, and it is partially these expectations that caused some of my issue with the film.

With the film as a whole it's mainly it's execution and the reasons behind the actions I just personally feel could have been better executed. Which could be easily fixed with some world building.
Establish that the New Republic has not done much since the collapse of Imperial Rule with a lot of anarchy and brush wars flaring up with central authority gone, this would help explain resentment to their cause and the relatively small number of Resistance fighters and the draw of the First Order initially, set up Snoke playing on Ben's fascination with Vader and how he should be viewed as a hero rather than villain, how Luke's new Jedi aren't doing enough for the Galaxy. This can set up ben's conflict with his morals growing up as opposed to what seems a quick and logical solution to current events. It would also fit more with his character arc of trying to force himself to be something new and killing his past.
Luke being worried at Ben's Dark Side potential is in character, the attempted murder consideration I felt was not. The same result could have been achieved with Luke doubting his Jedi teaching as possibly having a flaw that could create another Vader and after an argument that boils over with the other students some side with Ben and some with Luke on how to handle things, leading to the schism and violence when Ben threatens to leave and Luke says he can't allow that so ben draws his saber and the ensuring battle leads to the Academy's destruction. Luke at this point will feel even more self doubt and seek out the ancient Jedi temple to attempt to locate lost Jedi Lore to fix the situation, his guilt still drives him into an exile but it is due to him feeling there is an answer in the lost lore not just him feeling bad and leaving. This still allows things to progress with Kylo and the Fo up to TFA and TLJ.
With Finn, really deepening his character's motives on not wanting to fight but being given no choice as a Trooper would have made vast improvements to his arc as well as his interactions with Phasma and the other troopers. have him conflicted about the troopers he's killed, have him starting to feel like he's forced by circumstance to fight against his will for the Rebs. Then you can work in the love/friend interest to show it's about choice, not obligation, highlighting the fundamental difference between the FO and the Resistance. Have this choice have weight, instead of just touring the casino world, have them help create an actual uprising that overthrows the local government liberating those oppressed. You can work this into the code slicer aspect by having the slicer refuse to help them initially since they won't help his people while having Finn and co grow to care for the slaves they meet. in short have a pay off for Finn that leads him to decide to try and get the concept of choice to his former Stormtrooper comrades who then have to choose between him and Phasma. Make these confrontations mean something deeper.
With Leia, actually have her die when she's blown out to space, this could have had so much impact on Kylo's character development and world view. his guilt, his being forced into this position all leading to his decision that he needs to double down and go deeper by ultimately usurping Snoke.
In relation to Poe and the Vice Admiral, actually give a reason why Poe and the crew are not told the plan, maybe there is a traitor, possibly make that how the base was found int he first place thus making her decision to withhold that information on intended self sacrifice make sense.
With Rey, you can make her far more compelling while still making her a Force God. If she is so strong, have some side effects of her losing control with consequences, have her fear her own potential, but work to overcome that. The fact she's never been trained could be used to such effect in that her raw power could have badly killed or injured someone she cared about so she shies away from the Force and would make her on a psychological level opposed to kylo's assertion that more power is the answer to her problems.
With luke and Rey, focus more on the character building between them, you can have Luke refuse to teach her, and refuse the lightsaber, not by casually throwing it away but by pushing it away with far more emotional weight. have him say he can't give up on finding this 'answer' that he missed before in the old lore and he can't go back til he finds that to bring Ben back and fix things though he agrees to train her after hearing about Han's death(and no cut away from that! that scene of Luke's reaction needs to be seen and felt!). have Rey point out things have gotten this bad from his self doubt that led him to seek some ancient answer rather than try and create a new one, that maybe the old lore is forgotten because it's time for something new from THEM. This should make him think about what she said but not admit his focus is wrong(I.E play to Luke's stubbornness and absolute focus on what he thinks is right path) and while initially going back to the temple have the yoda scene after Rey heads out to help her frinds. This way luke goes back to help but arrives after Rey and Snoke thing.(also cut the Luke milking that...thing...scene)
Take out a lot of the tone shifts and don't be afraid to go darker.
Having Snoke take Rey's lightsaber was good, but then bonking her on the head made the scene comical and undercut it. Also...no hugh heffner robe for Snoke...that was just silly. Make it red or scarlett or something somber to contrast/match with his guard. Have Kylo blame Snoke for his mother's death, and remind Snoke of his own philosophy of killing the past to make the future tht HE is part of the past now too before betraying him with Rey. Again give the scene weight, have the guards actually wound Rey seriously, since she left before finishing training thus giving a cost to her actions, taking her out of events for the ground battle she planned to intervene in.
With the Finn and sidekick(I forget her name) on the battle have her die because she steals his ship, making the CHOICE to do so, highlighting that arc. Again give weight to it with the earlier buildup and don't contradict like the base film did with counter motivations. The dreadnought crash scene...eh leave as is. With Phasma and Finn's confrontation have Finn sow the seeds of doubt in his fellow troopers minds with his tale of experiences and highlighting how Phasma doesn't care for any of them. Phasma still dies but again this should come about as a result of her actions/path rather than randomness.
Luke's battle and death i would have done differently only slightly, ahev him projecting himself in the battle but also being there.(illusions as fighting basically) but ultimately sacrificing himself to allow the Rebs and wounded Rey to escape.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on January 01, 2018, 05:06:03 AM
I’m not going to go into detail here, as in all truth I’m a bit tired of debating the film’s strengths and weaknesses at this point, and I’d have enjoyed many of your proposed changes (edit: though not as much as I'd have enjoyed Belated Media's rewriting of the prequels...).  I think the main differences in our reactions to the movie are twofold: first, I don’t at all mind coming into a story in the middle and having to guess at some of the background or fudge a few details to maintain continuity or, well, logic - possibly because I grew up on Star Trek’s episodic style and constant cycling of writers, where a lot of things don’t make sense if you try too hard to reconcile them (watch any Star Trek “courtroom” episode and compare it to any actual legal system - yet at minimum at least one of these episodes is in Trek’s top ten, despite the legal proceedings within making almost no sense).

The second is that I think you came in with much stronger - or perhaps just more defined - expectations, as you also alluded to.  In essence, I had no checklist of objectives for the movie; I had a few hopes, but they were a lot more general in nature and entirely based on hoping to see what I view as continued growth for the characters.  I know we don’t agree on this, but I don’t feel let down in this regard.  I certainly think Finn’s and Rose’s arcs could have been significantly better, but I don’t think they were a total waste either, and I was very happy with how Luke, Rey, and Kylo (late edit: and Poe!) were handled - each had a lesson to learn (or fail to), and all (even Finn’s and Rose’s) fit into the overall theme of examining the role and limitations of legends and the stories we tell ourselves, and that is the aspect of the movie I found most rewarding.

Well, that and Luke’s “that all you got?” brushing the dirt off his shoulder after the walker laser barrage. ;) Seriously, that is my favorite single moment in the movie, and I will never be able to give a rational explanation for why, and I couldn’t care less. :D

P.S. A couple minor edits were made over the night for clarity, as I'm on a fun cocktail of intoxicants that leave me wide awake and somewhat pedantic in reviewing my own words ;) Happy New Year!
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on January 01, 2018, 09:22:10 AM
Fair enough lol and I'm recovering from my own late night celebrations as well
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on January 01, 2018, 10:02:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgICnbC2-_Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgICnbC2-_Y)

That's the first rewrite, titled "What if Star Wars: Episode 1 was good?"  2 and 3 are easily found from there. :)

Edit: Also, for a comedic take, I HIGHLY recommend the Jedi Party series by Auralnauts if you haven't seen it - it's a masterfully done lip-sync parody series using footage from the movies.  First video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSCm8yAxBr8&t=77s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSCm8yAxBr8&t=77s)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on January 01, 2018, 12:51:52 PM
Thanks, these should prove interesting.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on January 01, 2018, 06:36:57 PM
So guys do you think Rey and Poe will be a thing, or do you think it will be Rey and Kylo(if he is redeemed?)?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on January 01, 2018, 07:39:34 PM
So guys do you think Rey and Poe will be a thing, or do you think it will be Rey and Kylo(if he is redeemed?)?

Poe and Kylo, surprise ending. Rey and the milk alien, i felt there was some chemistry there and now that milk alien is single since Luke is dead, Rey can hit that rebound. Finally Finn will confess his feelings for BB8 only to be shut down for a Porg.

And before you ask yes I have been drinking...and I offer you possibly the greatest how it should have ended of all time...

https://www.facebook.com/isangkahigisangtokhang/videos/1049614005180873/
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: GreyStar on January 01, 2018, 11:31:32 PM
Personally I think Kylo Ren is ten times more attractive in TLJ than in TFA, must have been the lighting.

I’m on the ship of Poe and Finn all the way, Luke’s force ghost X Han’s ashes, and Kylo X the Dark Side.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on January 01, 2018, 11:35:23 PM
I thought this would totally help spice things up.
also if you look you can see shampoo bottles and some stuff for a shower. Damn the FO must have good showers for big leaders.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Pali on January 02, 2018, 04:48:41 AM
I'm still waiting for the hot robot threesome between BB8, C3PO and R2D2.  Think of the beeps!
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on January 02, 2018, 11:53:06 AM
Still a better love story than Twilight
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Slornie on January 02, 2018, 01:12:37 PM
And as to your earlier comment, i didn't arbitrarily pick plot points on Mary Sue Rey, never been off Jakku since borderline infancy/VERY early childhood, somehow speaks Wookie Jakku has a broad demographic; I get the impression being multilingual is quite common in the Star Wars galaxy (but Luke seemed to grow up in a more Human-dominated part of Tatooine), can fix the Falcon before Han She undid something her boss/owner added/changed, can FLY the Falcon all by herself when she's never even FLOWN before Just because it's not shown or stated outright doesn't mean she hasn't; we only had Luke's word that he'd flown before too, annihilates Ren by just sort of 'hmm Imma focus now on force stuff' therefore win I chalk this up to it being called "The Force Awakens", does a perfect mind trick with zero training Ditto, and for all your talk of Ren being on another level in this film it's not even remotely close to the truth the fact she has some basic self taught staff training and about a week with Luke and she's disarming the most powerful jedi Master in the galaxy I'm still going on my single watch here, but I was under the impression Luke disarmed her multiple times during their sparring until she summoned and lit the lightsaber?, ninja turtling Red guards and her 'struggles' are usually about 30 seconds of mild frustration followed by just getting it. A lot of which harks back to her upbringing on Jakku and unconventional rough and tumble moves rather than necessarily power or skill.
You have characters who routinely contradict the very establishment and development they went through in prior films like Luke contemplating murdering his sleeping nephew over something he hadn't even done, then running away to a nearly 20 odd year pity party without trying to fix anything I don't figure it being half that long (10 years at most?) and that seems to be a common trait for Jedi Masters anyway - Yoda after failing to defeat Palpatine, Obi-Wan after destroying (or so he thought) Anakin
leia NOT trying to find Luke in the Force in spite of their bond Who says she didn't? Luke cut himself off from the Force, Remember?, nor trying to bring her son back, Luke contemplating murder for possible darkside when he went through hell to try and redeem his dad because he sensed a little good Covered this one already, Han ditching Leia for nearly 20 years and Chewie being absolutely cool with it Again, I don't get the sense that it was nearly this long. Also that sort of thing doesn't seem a terribly unreasonable reaction, and is even consistent with how Han reacted after Chewie and Anakin's deaths in the old EU. Then you have build up with zero pay off, Snoke has no real point to the film for what he contributes plot wise He's the big bad boss who manipulates everything? What more do you need?, The First Order can bombard things from Space...but needs a laser battering ram They'd lost their super bombardment Dreadnought already, and the Rebel base on Crait had a shield like Hoth[color]
Added a few notes to the above quotes with my take on those things.


With Leia, actually have her die when she's blown out to space, this could have had so much impact on Kylo's character development and world view. his guilt, his being forced into this position all leading to his decision that he needs to double down and go deeper by ultimately usurping Snoke.
Have Kylo blame Snoke for his mother's death, and remind Snoke of his own philosophy of killing the past to make the future tht HE is part of the past now too before betraying him with Rey.
I actually thought Kylo got plenty of development with regards his parents.  After TFA where he killed his father in an attempt to settle the conflict inside him and turn fully to the Dark Side (Vader his idol, and wanting to please Snoke, his master), Kylo actually just finds himself more conflicted than ever.  When he senses his mother on the bridge of the Raddus he pauses, as if willing himself to pull the trigger.  And then, when he consciously chooses to not kill her, his wingmen fire and destroy the bridge.  As far as I can recall there's no moment later in the film where he learns that she's not dead, and maybe that moment (when he sees her supposed-death) plays into his decision to betray Snoke later on (if having decided not to kill her, he blames Snoke for her subsequent death).


EDIT:

Still a better love story than Twilight
Which one? Rey/Kylo, Rey/Poe, or Finn/Rose?  The latter is most definitely worse than Twilight!
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: tlmiller on January 02, 2018, 02:06:29 PM
No, any of them are better than Twilight.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on January 02, 2018, 02:58:33 PM
No, any of them are better than Twilight.
To be honest though Salt and Pepper are a better love story than Twilight.
But yeah its Rey and Poe all the way man
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: tlmiller on January 02, 2018, 10:38:31 PM
Chewbacca and Darth Maul is a better love story than Twilight.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on January 03, 2018, 03:21:06 AM
Chewbacca and Darth Maul is a better love story than Twilight.

You should get paid for this, rofl.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Lord Xizer on January 03, 2018, 08:13:08 AM
You should get paid for this, rofl.

Send it in, who's to say they won't make a SW movie about it?
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus on January 03, 2018, 10:29:53 AM
Send it in, who's to say they won't make a SW movie about it?

Ray Park wanted to get a solo Darth Maul film, maybe that's his chance. Only that it'll be slightly different to what he probably imagined. At last, we will reveal our sexuality to the galaxy. At last, we will have love. Fur. Fur attracts the fur-lovers. The strong. The weak. The innocent. The corrupt. Fur. Fur is my soft spot.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Illidan Stormrage on January 03, 2018, 02:21:20 PM
AHHh STOP
Lets just get back to the Last Jedi then.
Yeah Rey and Poe should be a thing, because she totally Friendzoned Kylo and since Finn now has his on girl.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Slornie on January 16, 2018, 01:57:53 PM
Rian Johnson has given more detail about some of the decisions he made in The Last Jedi, including that they didn't actually change anything to account for Carrie's death. Star Wars: The Last Jedi - 10 Revelations From Director Rian Johnson (https://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-last-jedi-10-revelations-director-rian-johnson/)
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Taessi on January 19, 2018, 04:15:08 AM
I agree with the op on most things.  However, I think the whole Luke being a cry baby, scaredy cat, ruined his character that was built up from originally trilogy and then the books street the trilogy.

Luke was a bad as kid in ANH, not afraid to face Darth Vader. And in both the subsequent films her does face him lots. He is still in his early 20s at that point.  So why would a writer completely ignore this guy and instead create a kid that is scared of failure,  a kid that fears everything. A kid in a 50 year old man.

To me it was like the director had 1 kid (ben) and wanted a second kid to go against the kid so they made Luke into a child.

There were a lot of good scenes and was funny. I really enjoyed Chewie and the porgs.  When he collect up one and couldn't eat it lol

Tho I think the porgs are Star Wars version of the trebbles from Star Trek.
Title: Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Post by: Hairybum74 on February 16, 2018, 10:45:26 PM
This movie is easily my absolute favourite movie of all time and the only thing I didn't like about it was the casino part.