2.2 Demo Feedback

[MaxL_1023]

Looking in the XML files, the Bellator seems to have 54 turbolaser batteries with 10 pulses each, 54 heavy turbolaser batteries with 10 pulses each and some missiles + ion cannons. It is supposed to have this much armament? AFAIK, this is what the Executor-Class carries (at least in terms of turbolasers).

Would it be possible to replace some of them with quad mounts (with fewer pulses) to match the visual model of the gun turrets?

[Corey]

You are correct, we'll be fixing that (we had to redo the Bellator armament anyways, since as you say, we built it off of singles when it's meant to have more duals/quads).

[WarlordOfWildSpace]

Thanks for the response Corey!

Happy to hear you're enjoying it. As for your questions:

There's this. The ones who controlled the most amount of territory, enough to be considered real threats for significant galactic powers, would be the ones present in the mod as playable factions. People like Harrsk and some of the Grand Admirals were smaller, but not quite insignificant. There were some like Prentioch or Getelles who tended to control only one sector, as well.

Since we try to make sense of canon as a whole, we tend to leave out stuff that either has too many weird elements to properly fit in with the whole, or was too insignificant to impact the wider galaxy. Unfortunately, this fits into that category- nothing from it, to my knowledge, was ever referenced outside that particular roleplaying story, and even then they had minimal impact, especially considering how many new assets that would be for a faction that doesn't really fit into any other conflict. If we're gonna be doing dinosaurs, it'll be the Ssi-Ruuk.

Thanks for the link!  Don't know how I missed this before, but there are a lot of them, something like 30 in the first year alone.  And a number of them are far weirder and more powerful than the Moff Delurin fellow I found.  I had fun and made this map for ABY 4-5 because I enjoy making maps. 
http://imgur.com/XChQRGF


Also, didn't the Empire of the Hand recruit reptilians from Kariek or one of their planets?  If you ever made the Ssi-Ruuk in years to come it would be a neat resource crossover, assuming they looked at all alike.

We don't want to put even more CW assets into the mod, most were incredibly outdated and some like the Eta-2 were never really seen again. Stuff like the CW Y-Wing had been completely superceded by the more modern Y-Wing, which itself was almost entirely superceded by this timeframe. We've already basically overused them. When we were looking for a PA IPV replacement, we were posting a poll between a few options- the problem is really just that there's too many, not necessarily that we couldn't find one. Other TIEs are an option, but they tend to be pretty low priority as far as assets go.

I had only thought of it as a good doubling of resource use with FotR being worked on, but you make excellent points.  Still hope to see the VT-49 in the future, one of my favourite ships in Fantasy Flight's X-Wing.

I like most of the new ships except that new heavy bomber. The reason we don't pursue new canon assets, though, has more to do with the fact that it's a completely separate timeline, and none of those ships exist in L:egends. We'd have to make an entirely new mod, stripping out all of the EU ships, characters, campaigns and basically start fresh in a universe with, currently, far fewer ships and options generally.

It seems unfair that new-Canon can take whatever it likes from the EU, but that the reverse does not apply.  There was a statement at one point from a Lucasfilm employee that all EU characters still exist in Canon, but their stories don't.  This seems like a strange blanket statement since it clearly doesn't always apply, what with Kylo Ren/Ben Solo being an amalgamation of Jacen Solo and Ben Skywalker or Jyn Erso being a new version of Jan Ors.  Still, it seems a shame that those working with EU material cannot apply that logic in reverse to take any planets, ships or even characters they want.

Also, wasn't the Raider developed by a collaboration between Lucasfilm and Fantasy Flight after the Disney buyout and the beginning of new-canon?  Wouldn't that make it a Canon only ship, and therefore not usable in your mod?  Not that I am complaining, I really like seeing the Raider in your mod, just curious.

[Corey]

Nice job on the map.

Also, didn't the Empire of the Hand recruit reptilians from Kariek or one of their planets?  If you ever made the Ssi-Ruuk in years to come it would be a neat resource crossover, assuming they looked at all alike.

Yes, the Eickarie. They were probably more reptilian in the Trandoshan sense than Ssi-Ruuvi- they were at least humanoid enough that they could fit into stormtrooper armour and not be conspicuous.

It seems unfair that new-Canon can take whatever it likes from the EU, but that the reverse does not apply.

That's really just because one's ongoing and the other's not. The EU is also a lot more dense, it's hard to insert any major storyline in the GCW or afterward without causing issues. That's sorta why the Zann Consortium had to just fall apart, that was an impossible storyline to develop.

Also, wasn't the Raider developed by a collaboration between Lucasfilm and Fantasy Flight after the Disney buyout and the beginning of new-canon?  Wouldn't that make it a Canon only ship, and therefore not usable in your mod?  Not that I am complaining, I really like seeing the Raider in your mod, just curious.

There's some ongoing stuff like TOR and the FFG stuff which seem to have at least one foot in Legends still (possibly both, with TOR). The Raider was built into and around existing Legends lore, including being designed by Lira Wessex. The non-sequel era stuff in that game seems to be pretty much Legends material considering for it to be canon, it brings almost the entirety of Legends into canon (both characters and storylines), although that will likely change with Rogue One.

[WarlordOfWildSpace]

Makes sense.  With all this legends content to look at, what would you recommend?  (I have read the Thrawn trilogy and the Jedi Search trilogy)

Also, don't know if there is a place for it in the rosters of ICW, but the Gozanti cruiser/carrier has appeared in the prequel movies and the 2008 Clone Wars cartoon, admittedly not in use by the Empire, but would that place them far enough into Legends territory to be used if you ever wanted to?

[DarthRevansRevenge]

Thanks for the link!  Don't know how I missed this before, but there are a lot of them, something like 30 in the first year alone.  And a number of them are far weirder and more powerful than the Moff Delurin fellow I found.  I had fun and made this map for ABY 4-5 because I enjoy making maps. 
http://imgur.com/XChQRGF

lovely job on the map, but a few suggestions:
1. the PA. it is show on your map only half it's size, so maybe add attack lines or modify it to symbolise it's greater size.
2. similarly, the Cuitric hegemony looks a little big for 1 sector.
3. you mentioned the Oplovis sector, but didn't fill it in.
4. can you add the NR attack movements of the first two years, to show it's growing size
great job over all though.
as a side note on this, could you make a serious of  maps for the rest of the civil war?

edit: scratch the PA size comment

[Bucman55]

Is there a way to re-orient ships without moving them? My Star Destroyers love to flash their engine bells at the enemy. (This might be a neophyte question, if so I apologize)

Select the desired ship, right click, hold and move your mouse either on the unit or where you want it to go to reveal an arrow. Point the arrow in the direction you want that unit facing and win battles.

[tlmiller]

Select the desired ship, right click, hold and move your mouse either on the unit or where you want it to go to reveal an arrow. Point the arrow in the direction you want that unit facing and win battles.

AT least, when it doesn't want to spin 340* to orient itself in the direction instead of turning 20*...

[WarlordOfWildSpace]

lovely job on the map, but a few suggestions:
1. the PA. it is show on your map only half it's size, so maybe add attack lines or modify it to symbolise it's greater size.
2. similarly, the Cuitric hegemony looks a little big for 1 sector.
3. you mentioned the Oplovis sector, but didn't fill it in.
4. can you add the NR attack movements of the first two years, to show it's growing size
great job over all though.
as a side note on this, could you make a serious of  maps for the rest of the civil war?

edit: scratch the PA size comment

The Ciutric Hegemony's size is based on its control of the two planets you can see on the map, Ciutric and Axxila, each faction is also basically a fair amount of guess work, many of them may have owned more or less territory between ABY 4-5, but they are all roughly in the right place and the right size. 

The Oplovis sector is that green section between the PA and Ciutric, there is white line connecting the area to the title, but it is accidentally in the same layer as the green territory marker, and so is at the same transperancy, might fix in future.

I'd love to make more maps, no promises, but I will have a look at it.

Edit: @Corey:  Has anyone ever asked you guys to make the Nar-Shadda type star destroyer seen in the Force Unleashed games?  It also appeared up in Zinj's territory at Raxus Prime and would make for a unique mid-range star destroyer being between a victory and a venator in size and utilizing design elements from the Imperial and Venator SDs, meaning that it could likely be cobbled together from existing models.  Just a thought.

On that note, the Imperial Remnant has no ship between the levels of ISD and SSD, like the Praetor for Eriadu and PA or the Allegiance for Maldrood.  If that is intentional then disregard the following, but if they should have a ship in that class, there a couple of options.  There is the Tagge battlecruiser, named after the Core Worlds based company that built it for the Empire, and were supposed to be bigger than ISDs, but not SSD size.  There is also a Praetor II variant that appears without a name in Admiral Giel's secret armada, it is 90% a Prraetor, but has truncated bow like a Gladiator which could make a carrier, similar to the Secutor, or a missile battery battlecruiser. There is also a battlecruiser of unknown type with a unique design captured by the pirate Crimson Jack after it was damaged in a battle against rebels, and the cruisers Praetor mark 1 and Procurator, but no images outside of fan imaginings exist for them.

2 other thoughts, I know the Zann are essentially a FoC only creation that doesn't fit well, but has the team ever thought about using the Aggressor-class star destroyer from that faction that was, supposedly, a design stolen from the Imperials.  It probably doesn't work for any of your factions, I am just curious.

Lastly, the Twilight incident from early in the Galactic war saw the use of a modified Victory class Star Destroyer with a weaker version of the Death Star's superlaser embedded in it.  This ship then just vanishes and is never mentioned again.  It is likely something that would never come to pass as there are more pressing issues, but it would be neat to have this ship appear as a rescuable mission/event in the wild space territories up near the Empire of the Hand as it was last spotted up that way.  Again, likely never to happen, just interesting that this ship and its plot thread were never completed in the EU.

[MaxL_1023]

Just wondering - is the Allegiance supposed to turn as slowly as it does? It seems to be slower than a SSD in terms of turn rate, which seems backwards (like they love to face when not micromanaged).

Also, why is the Providence so torpedo heavy? AFAIK in canon it was primarily armed with turbolasers and fighters.

[Bucman55]

Just wondering - is the Allegiance supposed to turn as slowly as it does? It seems to be slower than a SSD in terms of turn rate, which seems backwards (like they love to face when not micromanaged).

Also, why is the Providence so torpedo heavy? AFAIK in canon it was primarily armed with turbolasers and fighters.

If one looks at the canonical armament of the Providence (according to wookieepedia) one finds that it is very torpedo heavy.

[thdhted]

Besides, the number of Torpedoes it has gives it more viability than it would otherwise. It's a Carrier that can also pull duty as a bruiser that can actually hold its own in combat.
This is opposed to the Venator which is a support carrier that does most of its damage by piggybacking off of a ship with Ion Cannons.

[Jorritkarwehr]

On that note, the Imperial Remnant has no ship between the levels of ISD and SSD, like the Praetor for Eriadu and PA or the Allegiance for Maldrood.  If that is intentional then disregard the following, but if they should have a ship in that class, there a couple of options.

The Tagge Battlecuiser is actually planned for Maldrood. It's being merged with the Sorannon-class Star Destroyer and will presumably also show up as the EX-F for the Duskhan League and the Remnant.


Considering all the Warlords have two battlecruiser-sized ships (PA: Praetor, Secutor; Zsinj: Allegiance, Lucrehulk; Maldrood: Allegiance, Secutor; EA: Praetor, Torpedo Sphere), I'd like to see era 1 Remnant get something in that range as well. Perhaps the Allegiance, with Maldrood getting the Tagge/Sorannon instead.

[MaxL_1023]

I think the Tector is supposed to fulfill a battlecruiser-like role when it is available - AFAIK it has 8000 shields/hull and similar firepower to the Allegiance.

There were a lot of smaller SSD designs floating around (like the Bellator) - maybe the IR could have two SSD designs (one about half size) to compensate for the lack of a BC. The Empire was always an ISD + SSD fleet AFAIK - most of the mid-sized ships ended up in the rim.

[Mr.Puerto]

I think the Tector is supposed to fulfill a battlecruiser-like role when it is available - AFAIK it has 8000 shields/hull and similar firepower to the Allegiance.

There were a lot of smaller SSD designs floating around (like the Bellator) - maybe the IR could have two SSD designs (one about half size) to compensate for the lack of a BC. The Empire was always an ISD + SSD fleet AFAIK - most of the mid-sized ships ended up in the rim.

Yup I also think this was the case, I would be okay if the IR only had the Tector in this instance. Maybe I would be good with a couple Allegiances lying about but not build-able making them much more valuable. But the IR (in my opinion obviously) would be way overpowered if they had a committed build-able battlecrusier.  The IR already has way too many SSDs, you have the Executor class then the Sovereign, Then the Eclipse and hero SSDs. That's already enough.

[WarlordOfWildSpace]

I agree that the SSDs get extreme, but maybe only the player should be able to build them, and let the AI build a battlecruiser?  I just have to sigh every time I fight a fleet of 3 executors.  But I think what would maybe round out their roster more would be the Praetor truncated variant as a carrier battlecruiser, like heavier version of the Secutor.  It would fill a different role in their roster, that of a heavy carrier, and wouldn't have the sheer fire power or mass of other large ships, but more mass than a secutor.

[Mr.Puerto]

I agree that the SSDs get extreme, but maybe only the player should be able to build them, and let the AI build a battlecruiser?  I just have to sigh every time I fight a fleet of 3 executors.  But I think what would maybe round out their roster more would be the Praetor truncated variant as a carrier battlecruiser, like heavier version of the Secutor.  It would fill a different role in their roster, that of a heavy carrier, and wouldn't have the sheer fire power or mass of other large ships, but more mass than a secutor.

That'd be pretty boring of a game though. SSDs are pretty easy to take down so locking them would be pointless.

[Corey]

Edit: @Corey:  Has anyone ever asked you guys to make the Nar-Shadda type star destroyer seen in the Force Unleashed games?  It also appeared up in Zinj's territory at Raxus Prime and would make for a unique mid-range star destroyer being between a victory and a venator in size and utilizing design elements from the Imperial and Venator SDs, meaning that it could likely be cobbled together from existing models.  Just a thought.

People have asked, we've always said we have no plans of doing that. It's not a unique role, and there's no information on it aside from a design (and honestly, it's a pretty ugly design). Not really worth the amount of work we'd have to put in for another relatively-samey mid-range Star Destroyer variant, which are effectively a dime a dozen as it is.

On that note, the Imperial Remnant has no ship between the levels of ISD and SSD, like the Praetor for Eriadu and PA or the Allegiance for Maldrood.  If that is intentional then disregard the following, but if they should have a ship in that class, there a couple of options.  There is the Tagge battlecruiser, named after the Core Worlds based company that built it for the Empire, and were supposed to be bigger than ISDs, but not SSD size.  There is also a Praetor II variant that appears without a name in Admiral Giel's secret armada, it is 90% a Prraetor, but has truncated bow like a Gladiator which could make a carrier, similar to the Secutor, or a missile battery battlecruiser. There is also a battlecruiser of unknown type with a unique design captured by the pirate Crimson Jack after it was damaged in a battle against rebels, and the cruisers Praetor mark 1 and Procurator, but no images outside of fan imaginings exist for them.

The Remnant does have ships in that range- at different times, they have access to both the Praetor II (even in 2.1) and the Allegiance (nobody had this before 2.2), plus one other thing we haven't mentioned yet. In any case, that size range isn't really a "must fill" for any faction, so it's true that some eras will remain without it, but that is intentional. For those that we decide would benefit from it, the Praetor, Secutor and Allegiance are all perfectly fine, as far as we're concerned.

2 other thoughts, I know the Zann are essentially a FoC only creation that doesn't fit well, but has the team ever thought about using the Aggressor-class star destroyer from that faction that was, supposedly, a design stolen from the Imperials.  It probably doesn't work for any of your factions, I am just curious.

We have thought about things like it and the Kedalbe, Vengeance, etc, and some of them may come into play later, but we also would need to make new art assets for them.

Lastly, the Twilight incident from early in the Galactic war saw the use of a modified Victory class Star Destroyer with a weaker version of the Death Star's superlaser embedded in it.  This ship then just vanishes and is never mentioned again.  It is likely something that would never come to pass as there are more pressing issues, but it would be neat to have this ship appear as a rescuable mission/event in the wild space territories up near the Empire of the Hand as it was last spotted up that way.  Again, likely never to happen, just interesting that this ship and its plot thread were never completed in the EU.

If there's plots about stuff being actually lost, ala Outbound flight, that's more likely to be something we try to pick up and do something with. If there's something like the weird superlaser VSD that jsut weren't talked about again, that's not quite the same. Honestly, usually something being brought up and never talked about again like that is an indication that it wasn't the best idea for them to have made in the first place, and a superlaser-equipped VSD from right at the end of the Clone Wars (almost 20 years before the mod starts) is an area where I think the best move is to forget that plot was ever a thing..

[GreyStar]

If there's plots about stuff being actually lost, ala Outbound flight, that's more likely to be something we try to pick up and do something with. If there's something like the weird superlaser VSD that jsut weren't talked about again, that's not quite the same. Honestly, usually something being brought up and never talked about again like that is an indication that it wasn't the best idea for them to have made in the first place, and a superlaser-equipped VSD from right at the end of the Clone Wars (almost 20 years before the mod starts) is an area where I think the best move is to forget that plot was ever a thing..

Well we could always add the Force Unleashed Nebulon-Bs that could one shot the Imperator Class. Or the proton beam cannons from EaW.

[Mr.Puerto]

Well we could always add the Force Unleashed Nebulon-Bs that could one shot the Imperator Class. Or the proton beam cannons from EaW.

No TFU plz