Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Illidan Stormrage on May 24, 2017, 11:05:52 PM
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So I thought about maybe what would I want to live under.
The some what corrupt but powerful Empire?
Or the chaotic Corrupt NR?
My vote is Empire since as long as I do my part I would feel safe especially when Pealleon Called the shots. I also want to live out my fantasy commanding a simple ISD or Raider Corvette.
IN THE NAME OF THE EMPIRE!!!!
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Was there any doubt what I'd choose? Give me Kaine/Pelleaon/Thrawns/even Dalla and I can live in the Empire without any major issues. Palp's I would definitely have my reservations, but IMO, still better to follow a Sith than Jedi IMO, even if I disagree with a lot of said Sith's beliefs.
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At least the New Republic isn't xenophobic and does not support slavery. Those are flaws too big to look over when choosing sides. The Remnant may be better than the GE, but the NR is still the better option at the end of the day.
EDIT: Regarding the poll, the Rebels/NR are not terrorists. They don't use terror tactics, that's the Empire.
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They sabotage and kill agents of the legal government and it's citizens to push their agenda...nearly the definition of terrorists.
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EDIT: Regarding the poll, the Rebels/NR are not terrorists. They don't use terror tactics, that's the Empire.
Blowing in up a military space station
Posing as pirates attacking the world of Halmad
intentionally causing violence
And it is more brutality then fear with the empire. I mean yes the empire is using fear but so dos batman. Is batman a terrorist? NO.
But to the point the Empire is a more stable regime and not all imperial leaders agree with the tactics the empire uses like Yularen, Pealleon, Dalaa, and Thrawn
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Blowing in up a military space station
Posing as pirates attacking the world of Halmad
Both military targets. The Rebels never intentionally targeted civilians, unlike the Empire.
intentionally causing violence
Against oppressive Imperial military targets.
And it is more brutality then fear with the empire. I mean yes the empire is using fear but so dos batman. Is batman a terrorist? NO.
No, but Batman doesn't murder and enslave innocent people. Batman makes the criminals fear him, the Empire makes its citizens fear it.
But to the point the Empire is a more stable regime and not all imperial leaders agree with the tactics the empire uses like Yularen, Pealleon, Dalaa, and Thrawn
That's the problem with the Empire. Despite various leaders disagreeing with their actions, there's nothing they can do about it without having direct control of the Empire.
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Empire, of course. Basically what TLMiller said, I share his opinion. As for NR, part of the reason why the "Alliance to Restore the Republic" wanted to "restore" it, was to bring back its corrupt ways, which eventually happened. People like Borsk Fey'lya benefited much more during the rule of the NR, than he ever would in the Empire, humanocentrism aside. And just look at what the NR was comprised of. What was Han Solo doing, before becoming the hero of the Rebellion? He was delivering drugs (spice) for a druglord/mobster (Jabba). And that's just one example. Also, think about this: there were more than 2 million people aboard the first Death Star, including families of the entire crew. So hundreds of thousands of women and children. While on Yavin 4, which was an uninhabited world, there were only several thousands of rebels, all of whom were soldiers. So, if Yavin 4 was actually destroyed, as planned, there would be a lot less innocent lives lost, and also the Galactic Civil War would be over then and there. As it happened, though, the Alliance continued to destabilize the galaxy, and to challenge imperial rule. If anything, they were the aggressors in the conflict. Later, during the NR years, the NR was always fighting in wars against someone, namely because many factions didn't trust their political regime and government. With imperial rule the galaxy wouldn't crumble the way it did, the war would end earlier, a lot less people would die, including the civilians. Yes, the Rebels/NR never purposely attacked civilians, but much more people died as result of their direct actions, as opposed to the Empire, who were the custodians of peace and order in the galaxy, while most of the NR members were ex-criminals who became influential people all of a sudden, under the new regime. Much like what happened in Russia when the communists took over. I'm exaggerating a little, but it's a lot closer than you think.
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If I had to choose only between the two it would be the NR. I rather not live under an Empire that subjugates people.
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Both military targets. The Rebels never intentionally targeted civilians, unlike the Empire.
No, but Batman doesn't murder and enslave innocent people. Batman makes the criminals fear him, the Empire makes its citizens fear it.
Wraith Squadron Intentionally targeted Halmad's population by:
Robbing Banks
Blowing up spaceports
Attacking airfields in urban centers
Hijacking simple merchants who were selling to the Empire
stealing fighters
And you miss understood the batman thing
EDIT: Regarding the poll, the Rebels/NR are not terrorists. They don't use terror tactics, that's the Empire.
Batman use fear tactics against the crooks he fought
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1. get out all who say the NR were terrorists. BOTH sides didn't do well, but the rebels didn't build superweapons(how many did Palpatine and his successors make?), the didn't support slavery, they didn't BOMB THE CRAP OUT OF PLANETS BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T OBEY EVERY SLAVE LAW IN THE BOOK, and when the wanted to restore the republic, they wanted a democracy like the Republic SHOULD have been. however, Borsk Feylya screwed it up by carring only about himself and his home.... and destroyed the NR in the process. but the Alliance wanted the democracy back, not the corruption. corruption was one thing they tried to clear OUT of the governments.
now, the empire? until Daala/Pellaeon came around, they were UNDOUBTEDLY Tyrants/Terrorists, with the exception of Kaine. they blew up planets, enslaved any non-human, and focused on spreading terror to get what they wanted.
now, as for who i would live under? i would carve my OWN democratic empire out, with some democracy(like the Senate and Courts), but with the military/administration being in my hands/that of the supreme commander, elected/appointed by the senate
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Depends for me, Imperial Remnant under Pellaeon, the Alignment under Kaine and the Empire under Thrawn I would be very content to live in, but I'd hands down turn against a maniac like the Emperor or Vader who rule through fear and intimidation for their own benefit. I never viewed the NR as terrorists and a lot of their people were worthy of honor and respect, Bel Iblis, Cal Omas, Wedge, Mon Mothma and Leia. There were good senators as well as bad ones. The corruption would sicken me but I can respect that they give more freedom to their citizens to determine their own fates.
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I dislike the Rebels/NR, but I agree that we shouldn't label them as terrorists, that wasn't my point. They utilised the tactics which worked best against a superior enemy, and managed to win, which is a respectable achievement. I might not like them, but I do respect them. Simply referring to them as terrorists only is a bit immature, imo.
I just don't think they fared well as a political regime, so I would rather live under the Empire, with more stability and safety. I would probably not be saying this if I wasn't human, though, I recognize that.
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Someone spends a lot of time on the subreddit The Empire Did Nothing Wrong.
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there were more than 2 million people aboard the first Death Star, including families of the entire crew. So hundreds of thousands of women and children. While on Yavin 4, which was an uninhabited world, there were only several thousands of rebels, all of whom were soldiers. So, if Yavin 4 was actually destroyed, as planned, there would be a lot less innocent lives lost
And what about Despayre and Alderaan? Yes the populace of Despayre were criminals, but their sentence was life imprisonment on a penal colony, not death. And that's without going onto the many other atrocities deliberately committed by the Empire, including Caamas and Krytos.
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that was my point
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For all that the NR govt. was called corrupt, the word applies far more to the Imperial government. Every Moff was incredibly rich and used their positions to benefit themselves, often at the expense and pain of their citizens. They almost never make decisions based on anything close to the public good, but are laser-focused on maintaining or growing their own power.
Democracies will have corruption, that is a brute fact of human affairs - but dictatorships have significantly more because they lack internal, systematic checks on the power of state officials. NR all the way for me.
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A. The Rebellion was not a state of government. The Rebellion was a movement to create a new government. Unless that Corellian Treaty or whatever lebeled themselves as government.
B. The metholody of a terrorist does not lable them terrorists. It is the intent of that metholody. They seek to inspire fear and they do so through wide media attacks on military and civilian buildings. Many politicans who drum up non-existant threats in spectular conferences and bombastic speeches are the same thing, trying to incite terror. The Rebellion sought to UNDO the terror the galaxy lived in. There's a reason the Death Star was called a Terror Weapon and the Tarkin Doctrine called for rule by fear. Seriously. The Empire were the terrorists, and the tryanists.
C. The Empire destroyed planets, the New Republic didn't. Stupidly high taxes on both sides, but I don't lose my entire planet because the guy next door complains.
D. Batman is in fact, a terrorist. He made himself so effective at fighting crime to inspire fear into criminals to destroy crime as a way of making a living in Gotham. And around the world. This is best shown in the Arkham series where the stealth "Predator" segements, the better you do, the more terrified the goons are. In Arkham Knight, the more destruction you wreak on the Arkham Knight's Militia, the more terrified they are, and it involves attacking paramilitary bases.
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Terrorism is one of those words that truly doesn't have a definitive definition. However, I don't think that the general Rebellion was terrorist group, that's just playing into the supposed "in depth" look saying the Republic/Empire is the US and the Rebellion is Al-Qaeda or the Taliban. It's a nice thought but leave it in middle school English class.
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Here is a question to prove it.
If a country uses a fear tactic against terrorists does that make them terrorists?
And Another question.
Is subjugation terrorism? that what the Empire does right? they do major imperial occupation of worlds that SUPPORTED the terrorists of the confederacy!
And As Tyber Zahn said about the NR "I always wanted to own a senator" this explains their corruption and incompetence.
I rather Die in My raider corvette serving the EMPIRE then KNEELING TO THOSE NEW REPUBLIC DOGS!
LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!! !
LONG LIVE THRAWN!!
LONG LIVE PEALLEON!!!!
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To be fair the Empire's first act as a government was to kill an entire religious order responsible for solving countless disputes and defending the innocents.
Also, if we are going by the NR's tactis making them terrorists, the Empire used the same tacits on them, so yes, using terror tactics on terrorists makes the second party terrorists as well.
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Terrorism is one of those words that truly doesn't have a definitive definition.
To a degree, at least. It's generally agreed that terrorism is either threatening or carrying out violence in service of a political or ideological goal, with a tactic designed to inspire as much fear in the enemy population as possible - how many you actually kill matters a lot less than how afraid people become. I'd say that the Rebellion and New Republic never actually used terrorism, as their tactics were not designed to inspire fear in the general population but instead largely limited themselves to military, governmental and industrial targets with tactical or strategic value - terrorists usually don't target military installations as they don't frighten people as much and are much tougher targets to hurt.
If a country uses a fear tactic against terrorists does that make them terrorists?
Is not tolerating intolerance intolerant? ;) The Empire doesn't use fear tactics only against "terrorists", it uses them against its own citizens to keep them in line, and it does so preemptively and habitually. It's actually overall a very well done example in fiction of a fascist totalitarian state, especially in Legends: it is authoritarian to the core with a strong hierarchy and absolute power concentrated in an individual at the top, it is nationalistic, it is racist, it is exceedingly corrupt at every level of government, and it is far more concerned with keeping its citizens in line than with providing them justice or freedoms. If you think owning a senator in a democracy is easy, you have no idea how much easier it is to own a governor who has total power in his jurisdiction.
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Yeah I'm with Pali on this one. The Rebellion as a whole was not a terrorist organization. Now, that doesn't mean none of the Rebel cells were terrorists. As with any revolutionary force whose main advantage is a lack of a centralized seat of influence, there were some groups that would take a more extreme route. For the most part, the Rebellion would turn a blind eye to this provided they were getting results. That doesn't make the Rebellion as a whole terrorists though.
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Yeah I'm with Pali on this one. The Rebellion as a whole was not a terrorist organization. Now, that doesn't mean none of the Rebel cells were terrorists. As with any revolutionary force whose main advantage is a lack of a centralized seat of influence, there were some groups that would take a more extreme route. For the most part, the Rebellion would turn a blind eye to this provided they were getting results. That doesn't make the Rebellion as a whole terrorists though.
and this is the truth. while not fully expanded in the EU, Disney expanded on this(look at the Partisans)
and in all honesty, if you call the Rebels/NR terrorists, then they are Terrorists fight to over through TYRANNICAL NAZI TERRORISTS, who blow up planets for fun
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You do see bits of it in the EU, such as in the Han Solo trilogy.
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haven't read those yet. so i Won't know
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and this is the truth. while not fully expanded in the EU, Disney expanded on this(look at the Partisans)
and in all honesty, if you call the Rebels/NR terrorists, then they are Terrorists fight to over through TYRANNICAL NAZI TERRORISTS, who blow up planets for fun
How about the fact that one was full of harden criminals and another was selling illegal weapons to insurgents? The Empire Tyrannical? Yes. Oppressive? Yeah. Terrorists? No.
Many actions can be traced back to the rebellion such as acts of piracy, and hiring smugglers, Pirates, terrorist, spies, and very shady crime lords to help the rebel alliance. Kind of like Iran funding terrorists.
Infact the rebel alliance victory increased crime and piracy.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=terrorism+definition&form=EDGTCT&qs=SC&cvid=e1f287d8b57e4cfea1156575dee9d802&cc=US&setlang=en-US&PC=LCTS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Y3dlTDAxw
And the Us use nuclear arms and Moabs are we terrorists? No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F1d3QWsyk0
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i literally just watched that yesterday, but really, that would be the exact effect.
ok, the rebellion hired smugglers, the empire worked with the hutt crime empires and hired bounty hunters
as for the death star thing, Destroying 2 PLANETS!!! would also give out word and the rebellion would grow as people banded AGAINST the empire, because of their actions. as for Piracy, they stole the empires ships that would help free the enslaved species by taking OUT the empire.
as for increasing crime, that would have been because, instead of keeping order and fighting the rebels, the empire fought EACH OTHER, and then the NR swept in, taking planets, ships, resources, and starting to stamp out the crime lords.
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i literally just watched that yesterday, but really, that would be the exact effect.
ok, the rebellion hired smugglers, the empire worked with the hutt crime empires and hired bounty hunters
as for the death star thing, Destroying 2 PLANETS!!! would also give out word and the rebellion would grow as people banded AGAINST the empire, because of their actions. as for Piracy, they stole the empires ships that would help free the enslaved species by taking OUT the empire.
as for increasing crime, that would have been because, instead of keeping order and fighting the rebels, the empire fought EACH OTHER, and then the NR swept in, taking planets, ships, resources, and starting to stamp out the crime lords.
1. As Grand Admiral Thrawn, Pealleon, and even Eli Vantro(from Cannon) have pointed out: They are NOT slaves rather Indenture servants, some are criminals, others are paying off debts, Others are sold in by others like their own families, or the Trandoshans.
2. The reason the Empire could not fully go after the hutts is because they would then be fighting both the rebels and the hutts. And the Empire has tried to destroy crime empires like the black sun, and the Zahn Consortium.
3. using the argument to steal to fight the Empire you are only hurting the galaxy. The more the rebels fight the tougher the Iron fist of the Empire has to be to keep people in order. Also at Halmad Wraith Squadron was robbing banks, High jacking gear and causing fear among the local population. Saying that I need to steal your ship because I want to fight the Empire is no excuse. attacking shipyards where people are just trying to work for money isn't justified.
4. It is unfair to call the Empire Terrorists since anyone can use fear tactics and intimidation to win wars and the are not labeled as terrorists such as:
Thrawn, Pealleon, Batman, The US government( In Vietnam they cause fears of using Vietnam weapons by putting bad bullets that blew u in peoples faces in enemy caches), The Allies in world war ll (especially with the Atomic bomb), The Black Lives Matter Movement, A military force , Etc.
5. The two planets they destroyed were mostly justified. One was full of harden criminals(Murders, Terrorists, rapists, Etc) they were really bad dudes, and the other was doing very illegal activity such as: Sell weapons, funding insurgent and terrorists groups, and internally inciting violence among others.
6. Well Duh I mean when the chain of command collapses in any empire their is always infighting. Take the collapse of the USSR, Roman Empire, Greek Empire, The Ottoman Empire, Etc. That is a problem that could happen in any government. And it is the Rebellions fault this happen. they could have take the Empire over from the inside through a coup or something like What the Emperor did.
7. look at the transition of power between the the Republic to the Empire and compare it to the Empire to the NR. In the NR transition led to huge civil wars, chaos in the galaxy for over 25 years and it continue beyond that.
8. Bounty hunters are not that bad since they know the underworld and know hoe to find people. Would you rather send a imperial officer to find a major criminal or someone like Boba Fett, or Dengar who know who to talk to and how to find said criminal?
9. The Empire Tyrannical? Yes. Oppressive? Yeah. Terrorists? No.
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I thought we were done with the Political rants?
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I thought we were done with the Political rants?
Real politics? yes.
Star Wars politics? No.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LowVhCfLm68
here this will keep your mind relaxed
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1. As Grand Admiral Thrawn, Pealleon, and even Eli Vantro(from Cannon) have pointed out: They are NOT slaves rather Indenture servants, some are criminals, others are paying off debts, Others are sold in by others like their own families, or the Trandoshans.
Indentured servitude is, in the vast majority of cases, slavery in all but name. It's usually designed in such a manner that someone working as an indentured servant has not only their debt to pay, but also food, housing, and the like, and those costs will usually eat up everything that they'd otherwise be able to use to pay down their debt. That debt often also has interest and grows over time, making it even harder to pay off.
2. The reason the Empire could not fully go after the hutts is because they would then be fighting both the rebels and the hutts. And the Empire has tried to destroy crime empires like the black sun, and the Zahn Consortium.
In Legends, no, the Empire didn't go after the Hutts because the Hutts and the Empire had a deal - this is covered in the Han Solo trilogy. Black Sun not only wasn't something they were trying to destroy, but Xizor literally had direct access to Palpatine himself and was viewed as an advisor that Vader was competing with; Vader destroyed it for personal reasons once he had an excuse to do so, but it wasn't an act of carrying out state policy. The Zann Consortium was really more its own form of rebel group than it was a crime syndicate, with its focus on direct control of various territories and direct combat against the Empire and Rebels.
3. using the argument to steal to fight the Empire you are only hurting the galaxy. The more the rebels fight the tougher the Iron fist of the Empire has to be to keep people in order.
That's the excuse every totalitarian state gives, and it's always an excuse, not a reason. There are points where tightening control stops giving effective returns, and instead starts causing more problems than it would solve; the Empire crosses those lines frequently. Shooting protestors just means that the next protestors don't protest openly because they will know that protest won't work, so instead they become insurgent forces. Governments that won't change peacefully will be changed forcefully - it's only a matter of time.
Also at Halmad Wraith Squadron was robbing banks, High jacking gear and causing fear among the local population. Saying that I need to steal your ship because I want to fight the Empire is no excuse. attacking shipyards where people are just trying to work for money isn't justified.
Yes, Wraith Squadron was working black ops - yet even then, they acted in ways to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible, which is what prevents them from qualifying as terrorists. Terrorists either don't care about civilian casualties, or intentionally do their best to maximize them, because that's (generally) how you spread the most fear.
4. It is unfair to call the Empire Terrorists since anyone can use fear tactics and intimidation to win wars and the are not labeled as terrorists such as:
Thrawn, Pealleon, Batman, The US government( In Vietnam they cause fears of using Vietnam weapons by putting bad bullets that blew u in peoples faces in enemy caches), The Allies in world war ll (especially with the Atomic bomb), The Black Lives Matter Movement, A military force , Etc.
The bombing campaigns in WW2 against Japanese and German cities can absolutely be referred to as "terror bombing", and were called such by Germans (and Churchill in a draft memo) at the time. The difference here is the declared state of war, and whether the acts are considered to be within the bounds of acceptable warfare. At the time, indiscriminately bombing cities when in a state of total war was considered acceptable - it isn't anymore, and western militaries now do their best to minimize civilian casualties when assaulting cities (including warning civilians to evacuate areas, specifically noting the locations of humanitarian services as not to be targeted, etc.). Such acts in war, even if called terrorism, are often viewed as a sort of "justified" terrorism, and won't receive the same kind of condemnation. Sabotaging enemy weapon supplies such as in Vietnam is never going to be viewed as terrorism - the napalm attacks, maybe.
Black Lives Matter, as a group, does not endorse nor use violence nor the threat of violence, nor are their primary tactics (protests and civil activism) designed to incite fear or intimidation - some protests turn that direction, but that'll be the case for the vast majority of grassroots movements (the KKK, by contrast, was very much a terrorist organization). "A military force" may or may not use terror tactics, depending on their situation, goals, and accepted rules of conduct.
5. The two planets they destroyed were mostly justified. One was full of harden criminals(Murders, Terrorists, rapists, Etc) they were really bad dudes, and the other was doing very illegal activity such as: Sell weapons, funding insurgent and terrorists groups, and internally inciting violence among others.
I don't know how to touch this without getting the thread locked, so... next!
6. Well Duh I mean when the chain of command collapses in any empire their is always infighting. Take the collapse of the USSR, Roman Empire, Greek Empire, The Ottoman Empire, Etc. That is a problem that could happen in any government. And it is the Rebellions fault this happen. they could have take the Empire over from the inside through a coup or something like What the Emperor did.
Actually, it's a problem that largely does not happen in one type of government: democracies. Democracies are structurally designed for the hand-off of executive power to be peacefully and lawfully handled through various systems, most notably voting, and they've proven remarkably stable when compared to totalitarian states, which often fragment the moment the head dies. The reason Palps could "peacefully" take over was because he went through those democratic systems and manipulated the other players to perfection all the way through - he was voted into office and continually had more and more powers bestowed upon him by the senate, until in a moment of crisis he could seize what little was still denied him by virtue of grand acclaim. There is no such process within the Imperial government - you can't vote Palpatine out of office, you can't get yourself voted Emperor, all you can do to enact change within that system is kill the Emperor.
7. look at the transition of power between the the Republic to the Empire and compare it to the Empire to the NR. In the NR transition led to huge civil wars, chaos in the galaxy for over 25 years and it continue beyond that.
The transition to Empire happened after a major civil war of its own (aka The Clone Wars), as well as after a number of smaller conflicts and economic crises, and required deceiving the entire galaxy.
8. Bounty hunters are not that bad since they know the underworld and know hoe to find people. Would you rather send a imperial officer to find a major criminal or someone like Boba Fett, or Dengar who know who to talk to and how to find said criminal?
Smugglers are not that bad since they know the underworld and how to find supplies you need. ;) Smugglers also generally limit themselves to material crimes, such as theft or transportation of illegal goods, whereas bounty hunters often kill people with a great deal of collateral damage.
9. The Empire Tyrannical? Yes. Oppressive? Yeah. Terrorists? No.
You make it sound like tyrants are better than terrorists. ;) Both use the same kinds of tactics, it's just that the tyrant is the one in power while the terrorist is the one seeking it.
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The chaos and destruction of the Galatic Civil War and Imperial Civil War were because the Empire's broken forces decided peace was horrible and fought the NR to the last breath, still supporting human centercism and super weapons until Dalaa came onto the scene. In addition look at the Dark Saber, a weapon that could've destroyed several planets, only because of the Empire first creating the Death Star. And same with the Sun Crusher, which wiped out a few good star systems because of an Imperial Jedi mole.
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In Star Wars the empire is the bad guy (up to a certain point in history). Instead of trying to make the rebels sound terrible try to make the empire, that blew up one of its own planets (that was mostly pacifist) as an interrogation tecnique/test firing, sound like the good guys.
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Ok, I think I'll jump back into this discussion after all. I won't be able to be as elaborate on this as I would have wanted, due to English only being my third language, but I'll try to do my best. First of all, I'm not going to condone the atrocities the Empire has committed, and even more so, to claim that the Empire wasn't "evil". Evil is a point of view, and history is written by victors. I previously compared the New Republic to the Communists in Russia, coming to power in 1917, and I'll elaborate on this. When the revolution happened, people supported the new government, because the opinion was that they represented the people, and as such were "people's government". The reality was that the new rulers would never stand a chance to make a political career under the Czar, and most of them were straight up criminals, murderers and terrorists. One of the first things they did was release millions of such people from prisons. The results of this transition of power were horrendous, as people quickly realised that everything only became worse. The civil war erupted between the remnants of the old regime ("The Whites") and the Red Army ("The Reds"), and was very destructive. Subsequently by the time the Second World War started, the Soviet Union was unprepared, and was easily invaded by Nazi Germany in 1941. They won the war, eventually, but with horrible losses, by basically just throwing bodies at the Germans. No side lost as many people in the war as the USSR.
Of course I realize that I might just be projecting something into Star Wars that isn't there, and was never meant to be. It is surely true that after all the Empire were just the bad guys in a trilogy of films, and Lucas never intended to give them any redeeming qualities whatsoever. Everything I say is just purely my own opinion, I don't insist on it, and I'm not trying to convince or sway anyone else to it.
However, as I see it, the NR were the ones constantly dragging the galaxy into war, their actions led to deaths of millions of innocents, and after their victory and subsequent rule the galaxy was unprepared against the Yuuzhan Vong, which led to even more suffering and death. It simply wouldn't happen under a much more militaristic Empire, which was also perfectly aware of this threat. The Yuuzhan Vong themselves admitted that it was beneficial to them that by the time of their arrival the Empire was no longer the dominant power in the galaxy. And Nom Anor focused most of his efforts against the remnants of the Empire, recognizing them as a much bigger threat to their plans. The YV were eventually defeated only with the help of the Imperial Remnant.
The NR consisted for the most part of political outsiders, who knew that their ambitions were futile under Imperial rule, with a lot of just straight up criminals, who's place was in prison. The usefulness of such government was proven to be very limited, and eventually the NR ceased to exist in favor of the Galactic Alliance (another flawed government, but that's beside the point). The fact that the rulers of the NR themselves decided that their political system doesn't work is in itself very telling.
As for the Empire, their regime was undoubtedly flawed as well. It was an oppressive government, to say the least. It would be horrible if such a state existed in the real world. But in a Star Wars galaxy? It was the only regime that managed to sustain peace for 19 years. And their fanatical militarism made even the Yuuzhan Vong wary. And under certain specific rulers. namely Thrawn and Pellaeon (with abolished xenophobia and equal rights to all citizens), the Empire is a better political regime than the NR any time, and I challenge anyone to argue with this. The Empire of the Hand is also a prime example of how to rule a portion of the galaxy, and although independant from the mainstream Empire, they were established with their authority and as part of their organization at first, and as such the doctrines of the New Order also deserve credit for its success, regardless of their eventual alteration (and improvement) by Thrawn.
And finally, allow me to quote wookiepeedia on what the New Order stands for: "The New Order arose as a result of the failures of the Galactic Republic (in particular the usage of "everyone is right" democracies), which was decentralized and often found ineffectual in resolving disputes between its more powerful members. The Empire was championed as a strong unifying solution to this problem. It criticized the perceived decadence and weakness of the Republic, and advocated an authoritarian and militaristic social and political culture. It promised to trade frailty for strength, chaos for order, and uncertainty for decisiveness. As such, they also made sure that there was no question whatsoever as to who was in charge, in order to ensure that there was no grandstanding careerism among senators.".
All I'm saying, after all, is that the Empire and the Rebels/NR are the two sides of the same coin, and both have their fair share of flaws and indecent people, and none are "perfect", if such thing even exists. I do think, however, that the Empire was more qualified to rule the galaxy, and maintained order and stability better that the NR ever could. The NR were much more attractive on the outside, but I would never trust the sincerity of their claims and actions. If real-life politics are anything to go by, and if the politics of Star Wars were indeed modeled and based on the real world, it means that the main reason was always personal and selfish gain first and foremost, so I don't think we should get disillusioned here. The Empire, if anything, was much more obviously evil and didn't hide anything, were more or less sincere in what they did and promised for the galaxy. And I somehow think if they did win the GCW let's say at the Battle of Yavin, the galaxy would benefit from it much more. The Death Star and the Imperial Navy would remain the custodians of peace for many years to come, and the Yuuzhan Vong, the Ssi-Ruuvi, or any other threat would be dealt with quickly and without the loss of so many lives of innocents.
P.S.: But the bottom line, for me, is that I don't really view myself as a good guy, so it's easier for me to identify myself with the Empire, lol. So it's all subjective, rather than objective, I guess. At least I will not object if anyone says so. But it's not so obviously black and white or good and bad, it's much more complicated, in my opinion.
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About the Yuuzhong Vong.
The Vong Vongform Coruscant, the Empire evucates only the moff council, Death Stars the planet.
The greatest supporters of the Empire have just been destroyed. Life much, much, much more abundant then Desprye or Alderan wiped out in an instant, creating a wound in the force so terrible that everyone of Palpatine's Sith Lords lose their abilities, including the Emperor himself, and go mad, leading to a complete destablization of the Empire.
And as for Thrawn and Pealleon, they would never have enacted change in the Empire. Because Palpatine ruled with an iron fist. Only after he was dead did Thrawn and Peallon's reforms have a chance of actually succeding. So in the end, you want THE IMPERIAL REMNANT AND FEL EMPIRE.
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In Legends, no, the Empire didn't go after the Hutts because the Hutts and the Empire had a deal - this is covered in the Han Solo trilogy. Black Sun not only wasn't something they were trying to destroy, but Xizor literally had direct access to Palpatine himself and was viewed as an advisor that Vader was competing with; Vader destroyed it for personal reasons once he had an excuse to do so, but it wasn't an act of carrying out state policy. The Zann Consortium was really more its own form of rebel group than it was a crime syndicate, with its focus on direct control of various territories and direct combat against the Empire and Rebels.
Yes, Wraith Squadron was working black ops - yet even then, they acted in ways to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible, which is what prevents them from qualifying as terrorists. Terrorists either don't care about civilian casualties, or intentionally do their best to maximize them, because that's (generally) how you spread the most fear.
Actually, it's a problem that largely does not happen in one type of government: democracies. Democracies are structurally designed for the hand-off of executive power to be peacefully and lawfully handled through various systems, most notably voting, and they've proven remarkably stable when compared to totalitarian states, which often fragment the moment the head dies. The reason Palps could "peacefully" take over was because he went through those democratic systems and manipulated the other players to perfection all the way through - he was voted into office and continually had more and more powers bestowed upon him by the senate, until in a moment of crisis he could seize what little was still denied him by virtue of grand acclaim. There is no such process within the Imperial government - you can't vote Palpatine out of office, you can't get yourself voted Emperor, all you can do to enact change within that system is kill the Emperor.
The transition to Empire happened after a major civil war of its own (aka The Clone Wars), as well as after a number of smaller conflicts and economic crises, and required deceiving the entire galaxy.
Smugglers are not that bad since they know the underworld and how to find supplies you need. ;) Smugglers also generally limit themselves to material crimes, such as theft or transportation of illegal goods, whereas bounty hunters often kill people with a great deal of collateral damage.
1. "During the time of the Empire, the Hutt Cartel had a monopoly of smuggler employment. Although the Galactic Empire did not tolerate lawlessness, they nonetheless were cautious with dealing with the Hutts due to the latter party laying an important role in the Outer Rim's economy, and as such, any direct actions to shut down the smuggler trade required clearance from Imperial High Command beforehand.[18]
Sometime before the Rebels had emerged, the cartel took control of a few planets such as Felucia. Jabba also set up a communications relay on Saleucami to keep an eye on the Empire. " this is from wookiepedia. the Empire wanted to bring them down but they couldn't because of high command.
2. They still attack spaceports, rob banks, and beat up people in bars. they also rob merchants who were just trying to make a living.
3. Which is why this would(most likely) happen if the Emperor died not a endor but just he and vader died.
a. The Grand Moffs, Grand Admirals, and moffs would for the council of moffs
b. Small amounts of infighting insures but would be stamped out.
c. Maybe Sate Pestage would the Empires public leader but hey are really ruled by Moffs
d. Grand Admiral Thrawn will use his position to crate a better more fair imperial military
4. The Empire rise to control was better than the NR. The NR fought the Duskan League, the Vong, The IR, Warlords, the Hutts, Black sun, etc. They didn't have their shit together. And the Jedi Repeatedly fucked up the galaxy over and over again and they were more a fighting force for the NR then peacekeepers.
5. Smugglers are good to some extent, but as Thrawn points out things like spice are evil and the NR keeps letting people sell/Smuggle drugs and dangerous weapons. To some extent the Empire didn't stop this but they were mostly against it and arrested most spice dealers.
http://makingstarwars.net/2017/01/you-seek-knowledge-the-dark-side-of-the-rebellion-and-the-fulcrum-program/
This is from cannon but is kind of dark since it calls Ashoka and Kallus murders
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About the Yuuzhong Vong.
The Vong Vongform Coruscant, the Empire evucates only the moff council, Death Stars the planet.
The greatest supporters of the Empire have just been destroyed. Life much, much, much more abundant then Desprye or Alderan wiped out in an instant, creating a wound in the force so terrible that everyone of Palpatine's Sith Lords lose their abilities, including the Emperor himself, and go mad, leading to a complete destablization of the Empire.
And as for Thrawn and Pealleon, they would never have enacted change in the Empire. Because Palpatine ruled with an iron fist. Only after he was dead did Thrawn and Peallon's reforms have a chance of actually succeding. So in the end, you want THE IMPERIAL REMNANT AND FEL EMPIRE.
the thing is about palp's emire though is that he had superweapons. lots of superweapons and powerfull ones as well.
The vong would have stand no chance. Especially when the aforementioned Deathstar destroys their worldship with 1 shot and then casually strolls back to it's patrol route :D
There would be no real need for evacuation anywhere. They would just flatly defeat the Vong and then invade their homeland and Deathstar their homeland and enslave the few who survives like they did with the wookies.
Vong in the spice mines of Kessel :D
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the thing is about palp's emire though is that he had superweapons. lots of superweapons and powerfull ones as well.
The vong would have stand no chance. Especially when the aforementioned Deathstar destroys their worldship with 1 shot and then casually strolls back to it's patrol route :D
There would be no real need for evacuation anywhere. They would just flatly defeat the Vong and then invade their homeland and Deathstar their homeland and enslave the few who survives like they did with the wookies.
Vong in the spice mines of Kessel :D
Last I checked it only took a small ship of the Vong to by pass Imperial security and drop a vong terraforming seed or whatever, so the Empire defeats the Vong, still loses several important planets due to Vong forming and other bio weapons. And then, after all's said and done, the only planets left are the ones that were subjecated by Imperial rule, so 90% slave planets.
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1. "During the time of the Empire, the Hutt Cartel had a monopoly of smuggler employment. Although the Galactic Empire did not tolerate lawlessness, they nonetheless were cautious with dealing with the Hutts due to the latter party laying an important role in the Outer Rim's economy, and as such, any direct actions to shut down the smuggler trade required clearance from Imperial High Command beforehand.[18]
Sometime before the Rebels had emerged, the cartel took control of a few planets such as Felucia. Jabba also set up a communications relay on Saleucami to keep an eye on the Empire. " this is from wookiepedia. the Empire wanted to bring them down but they couldn't because of high command.
This doesn't dispute what I said - the Empire had deals set up with the Hutts, that they could control their own space in exchange for bribes.
2. They still attack spaceports, rob banks, and beat up people in bars. they also rob merchants who were just trying to make a living.
Sure - I didn't say their hands were completely clean, only that they don't qualify as a terrorist group.
3. Which is why this would(most likely) happen if the Emperor died not a endor but just he and vader died.
a. The Grand Moffs, Grand Admirals, and moffs would for the council of moffs
b. Small amounts of infighting insures but would be stamped out.
c. Maybe Sate Pestage would the Empires public leader but hey are really ruled by Moffs
d. Grand Admiral Thrawn will use his position to crate a better more fair imperial military
This is pure speculation - we saw what happened when the Emperor and Vader died, and it was the Empire splitting into pieces as those Moffs and Grand Admirals decided to grab their own pieces.
4. The Empire rise to control was better than the NR. The NR fought the Duskan League, the Vong, The IR, Warlords, the Hutts, Black sun, etc. They didn't have their shit together. And the Jedi Repeatedly fucked up the galaxy over and over again and they were more a fighting force for the NR then peacekeepers.
And most of those things happened because the Empire couldn't hold itself together - the Rebellion isn't something that happens out of nowhere, it's something that happens as a result of the Empire's actions. The Rebellion is the fault of the Empire in the first place.
5. Smugglers are good to some extent, but as Thrawn points out things like spice are evil and the NR keeps letting people sell/Smuggle drugs and dangerous weapons. To some extent the Empire didn't stop this but they were mostly against it and arrested most spice dealers.
So... selling drugs is worse than killing people?
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About the Yuuzhong Vong.
The Vong Vongform Coruscant, the Empire evucates only the moff council, Death Stars the planet.
The greatest supporters of the Empire have just been destroyed. Life much, much, much more abundant then Desprye or Alderan wiped out in an instant, creating a wound in the force so terrible that everyone of Palpatine's Sith Lords lose their abilities, including the Emperor himself, and go mad, leading to a complete destablization of the Empire.
And as for Thrawn and Pealleon, they would never have enacted change in the Empire. Because Palpatine ruled with an iron fist. Only after he was dead did Thrawn and Peallon's reforms have a chance of actually succeding. So in the end, you want THE IMPERIAL REMNANT AND FEL EMPIRE.
Palpatine KNEW about the Yuuzhan Vong, as did Thrawn, so I don't know what you're talking about, they would never catch the Empire off-guard. And Palpatine did die eventually, didn't he? Even twice. There were several coups against him during his lifetime, and his ultimate defeat and demise came as a result of his betrayal by Carnor Jax. So in no way would Palpatine rule forever, regardless of what happened. He was as much of a hated figure within the Empire as he was loved. But you're right, the Imperial Remnant (under Thrawn, Pellaeon, and to certain extent Daala) and the Fel Empire are examples of decent governments with the New Order doctrines enacted. Some warlord states as well weren't renowned for their oppressive nature (Pentastar Alignment, Greater Maldrood). I wouldn't feel safe living under the NR, that's all, I'm only speaking for myself.
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The flaw in the Death Star caught the Empire off guard. The Vong could sneak by the Empire just the same.
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Many of the empire successor states where not terrible, and some were probably better than the NR, if this arguments going to stop going around in circles, we (probably) need to choose either the Empire proper, or the remnant. Because both have many different factors to use as fuel For The NEVER ENDING FIRE OF INTERNET ARGUMENTS.
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It is sad that Empire died and the good men of the Empire are turn into war criminals like Thrawn and Pealleon who are labeled as evil. the only true evil in the Empire is the Emperor.
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and Vader... and Tarkin... And Lemelisk... And Jerec... and Cronal... and....
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and Vader... and Tarkin... And Lemelisk... And Jerec... and Cronal... and....
Tarkin was not evil he was just ruthless since he control sectors with a lot of rebels and Pirates
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When you blow up a pacifist planet, you've gone passed ruthless.
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Tarkin was not evil he was just ruthless since he control sectors with a lot of rebels and Pirates
So, having issues maintaining order and rule of law makes killing billions of people as a demonstration not evil somehow? Unless those rebels and pirates were killing billions of people (they weren't), I'm going to say they were the lesser evil in this circumstance.
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When you blow up a pacifist planet, you've gone passed ruthless.
A Planet selling weapons to terrorist and rebel groups
So, having issues maintaining order and rule of law makes killing billions of people as a demonstration not evil somehow? Unless those rebels and pirates were killing billions of people (they weren't), I'm going to say they were the lesser evil in this circumstance.
You cant really run your sector and not be ruthless to Criminal and rebel cells, and if you cant maintain order and people are killing each other... Worst a more drastic measurers will be taken against criminals, and Rebel cells.
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A Planet selling weapons to terrorist and rebel groups
because the empire was terrorizing the whole galaxy and betraying all of Alderaan's principles. and you still don't go around blowing up planets. hitting the government and armed forces and installing stormtroopers would have sufficed
You cant really run your sector and not be ruthless to Criminal and rebel cells, and if you cant maintain order and people are killing each other... Worst a more drastic measurers will be taken against criminals, and Rebel cells.
ever heard the Saying "two wrongs do not make a right"? same concept. being more ruthless means more people hate you and will rebel. quoting Princess Leia the more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers
did the death star inspir fear and terror? yes. did it make the universe lie down at Palpatine's feet? absolutely not. Ruthlessness is not the answer. maybe having less repressive policies, abolishing Slavery, less occupation, and more diplomacy would work. certainly better than a death star
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When you blow up a pacifist planet, you've gone passed ruthless.
A Planet selling weapons to terrorist and rebel groups
I'm sorry, but there's no way destroying an entire planet (or nation) based on the actions of its government or some citizens can be justified. Using a real-world example that's like saying President Assad in Syria would be justified in nuking the US because Obama funded and armed the rebels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#United_States) (terrorists and other bad guys from Assad's perspective).
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A Planet selling weapons to terrorist and rebel groups
So selling weapons should have the death penalty, both for you and for anyone within a few thousand miles of you?
You cant really run your sector and not be ruthless to Criminal and rebel cells, and if you cant maintain order and people are killing each other... Worst a more drastic measurers will be taken against criminals, and Rebel cells.
So if a part of a city has a lot of crime, it's okay to just burn down the city with everyone in it, children included? That isn't an evil overreaction in your books, but is instead an understandable and justified act?
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TIL that the US can be blown up because we sell weapons to Terrorists and Rebel cells.
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TIL that the US can be blown up because we sell weapons to Terrorists and Rebel cells.
This is the star wars universe Mr Puerto keep that in mind.
So selling weapons should have the death penalty, both for you and for anyone within a few thousand miles of you?
So if a part of a city has a lot of crime, it's okay to just burn down the city with everyone in it, children included? That isn't an evil overreaction in your books, but is instead an understandable and justified act?
1.The entire government was involved and most people supported the actions. The planet was funding extremists groups, and rebel cells alike.
2. Well that is kind of the problem with these rebels, and terrorists they build bases in huge population centers(there are exceptions like hoth and yavin 4 which justifies the force they use since they were remote) to hide them among the people. You can't be sure what to strike at. While maybe bombing rebel bases in population centers isn't really a smart tactic the Empire has explore alternatives, However the rarely work.
For example: Thrawn try to convince the night swan to surrender, and in return Thrawn can avoid huge causalities and also promises that the insurgents can go home and forget the event happen.
btw Did the 1.7 million inhabitants of the Death Star not have backstories, families or children? Is it not possible that they were just doing their jobs whether they agreed with the Empire’s foreign policies or not? In any case they were all wiped out in one genocidal act by Luke to which Han Solo rejoices with the line, ‘Great shot. That was one in a million.’ It is noteable that only Luke and Han are honoured with medals at the end with the rest of the rebels altruistically looking on. No mention of those that actually devised the plan to destroy the Death Star or those that died sacrificing their lives for the rebel cause are mentioned or honored.
the victory is only temporary as the fight for worldly domination continues and always will continue as long as the battlefield and spoils of victory is land and property. War it seems makes for good business.
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Han and Luke are the only ones who got medals, yes. Because what use would it be to award those who came up with the plan if it didn't work? After all, one pilot did it by the books, didn't take.
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1.The entire government was involved and most people supported the actions. The planet was funding extremists groups, and rebel cells alike.
And this excuses the murder of hundreds of millions of children, as well as however many adults may have disagreed with or been ignorant of their govt.'s actions, how?
2. Well that is kind of the problem with these rebels, and terrorists they build bases in huge population centers(there are exceptions like hoth and yavin 4 which justifies the force they use since they were remote) to hide them among the people. You can't be sure what to strike at. While maybe bombing rebel bases in population centers isn't really a smart tactic the Empire has explore alternatives, However the rarely work.
Where do we see Rebel bases built in population centers? You may have individual cells in cities, but that's a law-enforcement level concern, not a military one. Also, I'm not questioning the effectiveness of the Empire's tactics for maintaining control - their lack of such is self-evident by it being brought down due to an internal rebellion - I'm questioning the morality of it.
btw Did the 1.7 million inhabitants of the Death Star not have backstories, families or children? Is it not possible that they were just doing their jobs whether they agreed with the Empire’s foreign policies or not? In any case they were all wiped out in one genocidal act by Luke to which Han Solo rejoices with the line, ‘Great shot. That was one in a million.’
You need to watch the movie Clerks. ;) The Death Star was a military installation, pure and simple, and everyone on it was a member of the Imperial military. Yes, they were people, but they also signed up for the job - there's no mention of the Empire using forced conscription until after Endor. The DSII may well have had civilian contractors aboard, but the reality is that by taking such a job you are a) accepting the risks involved in the work and b) endorsing the project and its intended uses by contributing to it. There may have been slave laborers, and their loss is tragic but unavoidable collateral damage, but I suspect many of them would prefer to die with the station than see it built and even more people forced into slavery alongside them.
It is noteable that only Luke and Han are honoured with medals at the end with the rest of the rebels altruistically looking on. No mention of those that actually devised the plan to destroy the Death Star or those that died sacrificing their lives for the rebel cause are mentioned or honored.
That is how it is usually done - when a pilot makes ace, the mechanic doesn't get a medal. The point of such decoration is that it is good for morale for your side to have heroes to emulate and successes to celebrate - nuance doesn't sell well to crowds.
War it seems makes for good business.
Not with capitalist economies, which Star Wars largely has, as war will cause market instability and destruction of capital. It'll get a few people very rich and ruin a lot more people in the process, creating a net loss for the economy.
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what about the rebels recruiting terrorists like death watch, pirates, and crime syndicates that murder children everyday.
More people die because the vong war had no true huge imperial force and commanders. the rebels fucked it up. How many children die because of the NR actions? answer: more than both planets combined.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c22Si3RQrU
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what about the rebels recruiting terrorists like death watch, pirates, and crime syndicates that murder children everyday.
More people die because the vong war had no true huge imperial force and commanders. the rebels fucked it up. How many children die because of the NR actions? answer: more than both planets combined.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c22Si3RQrU
Maybe the reason the NR didn't do well in the Vong War is because nobody warned them. Palps knew ahead of time about the Vong threat, but nobody told the NR. How can someone be expected to fight off a threat they were never warned about?
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Let me just say this, the Empire under Palpatine likely would have seen me joining those rebels. The man was evil and needed to be stopped. He drained oceans, depopulated worlds and murdered or banished people on whims of capriciousness or just plain sadistic malice. He even knew no gratitude, there's a telling point in the Bounty Hunter Wars where Xizor and Vader have a moment of actual unity where they realize together their only reward for loyal service would be to be consumed last by the Emperor. I think the IDEAL of the Empire at least under Pellaeon was something worth fighting for and believing in but under Palpatine it needed to be broken.
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what about the rebels recruiting terrorists like death watch, pirates, and crime syndicates that murder children everyday.
More people die because the vong war had no true huge imperial force and commanders. the rebels fucked it up. How many children die because of the NR actions? answer: more than both planets combined.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c22Si3RQrU
As a rule, the Rebellion did not hire the more vicious parts of the underworld - there are a handful of cases of it happening, but the Empire made deals with such as a matter of course (and while high echelons of the military may have disdained the use of bounty hunters, keep in mind that many of those men could just as accurately be called Republic officers, since many likely joined during the Clone Wars, and much of their thinking would still be based on older, honorable standards that predate the Empire). Edit: and it bears repeating that the Empire didn't need to hire outside for its child killing and torture because it was pretty comfortable handling such work itself.
The idea that the Empire would have handled the Vong better is, I think, flawed in several ways. First, and most important, is that it didn't survive long enough to face the Vong to begin with, and the fault here lies solely on the Empire's actions - the Rebellion exists in the first place because the Empire made living within it intolerable to enough people that they were willing to Rebel. In short, the Rebellion is the Empire's fault in the first place - it's own flaws are the reason it failed. Second, there is the flaw in Imperial thinking and doctrine that Han Solo points out: the Empire may very well have focused on building the biggest and baddest Vong-killing superweapon, only to have some minor flaw cause it to fail spectacularly and waste all the effort and resources.
Third, the NR had the military might to have blunted the Vong invasion, but not the political will or consensus to deploy it effectively or in time. There's an unstated assumption that the Imperial leadership would have been united decisively against the Vong, but the truth is we have no idea how they would have reacted - would the Moff Council have held together, or would it have splintered as Moffs tried to make deals with the Vong to ensure their own survival? What if something went wrong early on, like Palpatine being killed - would the Empire have managed to survive a succession crisis during the Vong invasion? Saying the Empire would have handled it better is pure speculation, and I can easily come up with ways that it may well have handled the Vong invasion worse than the NR did.
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As a rule, the Rebellion did not hire the more vicious parts of the underworld - there are a handful of cases of it happening, but the Empire made deals with such as a matter of course (and while high echelons of the military may have disdained the use of bounty hunters, keep in mind that many of those men could just as accurately be called Republic officers, since many likely joined during the Clone Wars, and much of their thinking would still be based on older, honorable standards that predate the Empire). Edit: and it bears repeating that the Empire didn't need to hire outside for its child killing and torture because it was pretty comfortable handling such work itself.
The idea that the Empire would have handled the Vong better is, I think, flawed in several ways. First, and most important, is that it didn't survive long enough to face the Vong to begin with, and the fault here lies solely on the Empire's actions - the Rebellion exists in the first place because the Empire made living within it intolerable to enough people that they were willing to Rebel. In short, the Rebellion is the Empire's fault in the first place - it's own flaws are the reason it failed. Second, there is the flaw in Imperial thinking and doctrine that Han Solo points out: the Empire may very well have focused on building the biggest and baddest Vong-killing superweapon, only to have some minor flaw cause it to fail spectacularly and waste all the effort and resources.
Third, the NR had the military might to have blunted the Vong invasion, but not the political will or consensus to deploy it effectively or in time. There's an unstated assumption that the Imperial leadership would have been united decisively against the Vong, but the truth is we have no idea how they would have reacted - would the Moff Council have held together, or would it have splintered as Moffs tried to make deals with the Vong to ensure their own survival? What if something went wrong early on, like Palpatine being killed - would the Empire have managed to survive a succession crisis during the Vong invasion? Saying the Empire would have handled it better is pure speculation, and I can easily come up with ways that it may well have handled the Vong invasion worse than the NR did.
First of all, the evil acts of the Empire do not justify or excuse those of the Rebel Alliance/NR. And what you're saying about the fragmentation of the Empire is purely opinionated and subjective. The Rebellion's sole purpose was to destroy the Empire. Their eventual succes doesn't mean that it is Empire's fault. From all we know, the Rebellion was born out of ambition of its leaders. I said before that the Empire and the Rebellion are two sides of the same coin. To think that the Rebels were in any way a force of good in the galaxy is incredibly naive. I said everything I had to say on this subject in my previous comment, which you decided to not respond to, but I'll have to repeat it, I guess. If real-life politics are anything to go by, and if the politics of Star Wars were indeed modeled and based on the real world, it means that the main reason was always personal and selfish gain first and foremost, so I don't think we should get disillusioned here. The Empire, if anything, was much more obviously evil and didn't hide anything, were more or less sincere in what they did and promised for the galaxy. The RA kept destabilizing the galaxy, and continued to antagonize the Empire at all times, resulting in deaths of millions of innocents. Surely the Empire committed some horrible atrocities, but so did the Rebels. To a lesser extent, but nonetheless. What you said about the Death Star only having military personnel on board is not true, there were hundreds of thousands of children of the people employed there. There was no way for the Rebels to retrieve them all before blowing up the Death Star, of course, but this fact is interesting, because it means that if Yavin IV was destroyed then, as planned, the amount of casualties would be significantly lesser. Yavin IV was an uninhabited moon with one military base. The war would be over, no more deaths in the galaxy. Interesting, isn't it? As for the Yuuzhan Vong, the things you say are so ridiculous that I don't even have to say anything here. I'll quote wookieepedia: "Sometime between being dispatched to the Unknown Regions in 3 ABY, at the time of the Battle of Hoth, and his return in 9 ABY, now-Grand Admiral Thrawn apparently encountered the Yuuzhan Vong advance force hiding in the Unknown Regions. The threat of the advancing invaders was one of his primary motivations for trying to reunify the Empire, as he felt that the Empire stood a much better chance against the Vong than did the New Republic. The Yuuzhan Vong advance scouts themselves shared that sentiment. After the formation of the Imperial Interim Council in 11 ABY, following the final death of the reborn Emperor Palpatine, Yuuzhan Vong executor Nom Anor was tasked to infiltrate the Council. He did so and manipulated its leader, Xandel Carivus, arranging the deaths of many Councilors and furthering the internal strife between the leaders of the fracturing Empire.". The YV themselves were wary of the Empire much more, what more do you need to know? As for the flaws of their superweapons, there was this whole thing about the Death Star plans, including the moment when Palpatine himself allowed the Rebels to have them (plans of the second Death Star), due to underestimation. There would surely be no underestimation of the Yuuzhan Vong, I think it's safe to say. And even tactics-wise, the Empire was much more suited to fight open aggression, rather than insurgencies such as the Rebel Alliance. The Yuuzhan Vong with their worldships would hardly stand a chance, which is what they themselves realized. And do you really think that if Thrawn was alive, he would be defeated by the Vong? Killing him was probably the worst thing the NR could do for the sake of the galaxy. "The Yuuzhan Vong nearly destroyed the New Republic, and were responsible for the deaths of nearly 365 trillion sentient beings during their invasion of the galaxy.". 365 trillion sentient beings. Yeah, pretty sure the Empire would do better.
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Going to reply to that video first because I just can't type that much. :P
Point 1 ( from the video) those guys were literally kicked out of the rebel alliance for being to extreme AND it's a different continuity to the one we usually argue about.
Point 2 is actually a good one, and without doing any of my own research I can't really disagree.
Point 3 waiting for the Death Star 2 to be finished is pretty much the stupidest thing anyone could have done. Seriously. Why.
And then my favorite part of the video, when the guy who made it specifically says that the Empire is much worse.
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First of all, the evil acts of the Empire do not justify or excuse those of the Rebel Alliance/NR.
Never said they did - my point is that it's a false equivalency. Just because both have blood on their hands doesn't mean both have equal amounts of it.
And what you're saying about the fragmentation of the Empire is purely opinionated and subjective. The Rebellion's sole purpose was to destroy the Empire. Their eventual succes doesn't mean that it is Empire's fault. From all we know, the Rebellion was born out of ambition of its leaders.
Rebellions do not spring out of the ground without plenty of fertilizer being dumped on the population first. Stable governments that keep the people happy are not brought down by rebellions - a rebellion only gains strength as more and more citizens decide the government to be corrupt or otherwise worth fighting against. A few charismatic but corrupt leaders of a Rebellion simply will not get enough support to bring down the government, so their motives really don't matter to the point I am making.
I said before that the Empire and the Rebellion are two sides of the same coin. To think that the Rebels were in any way a force of good in the galaxy is incredibly naive. I said everything I had to say on this subject in my previous comment, which you decided to not respond to, but I'll have to repeat it, I guess. If real-life politics are anything to go by, and if the politics of Star Wars were indeed modeled and based on the real world, it means that the main reason was always personal and selfish gain first and foremost, so I don't think we should get disillusioned here.
I actually completely missed your post, sorry. That said, huge amounts of history and political action have been motivated by belief in causes, not simply selfish personal gain. People fight for what they believe to be right at great personal cost, often including their lives, all the time.
The Empire, if anything, was much more obviously evil and didn't hide anything, were more or less sincere in what they did and promised for the galaxy.
You are talking about a government that came into power through deception and manipulating a civil war into existence - how were they being sincere and not hiding things?
The RA kept destabilizing the galaxy, and continued to antagonize the Empire at all times, resulting in deaths of millions of innocents. Surely the Empire committed some horrible atrocities, but so did the Rebels. To a lesser extent, but nonetheless.
False equivalency. Punching someone in the face and beating them into a bloody pulp are both felony assault, but they are not the same thing by any reasonable moral standard.
What you said about the Death Star only having military personnel on board is not true, there were hundreds of thousands of children of the people employed there.
Source? (edit: and who the hell brings their kids onto a military installation like the Death Star? That is knowingly putting your child in harm's way and the fault of the parents in my book)
There was no way for the Rebels to retrieve them all before blowing up the Death Star, of course, but this fact is interesting, because it means that if Yavin IV was destroyed then, as planned, the amount of casualties would be significantly lesser. Yavin IV was an uninhabited moon with one military base. The war would be over, no more deaths in the galaxy. Interesting, isn't it?
Except for, you know, people the Empire killed over time for whatever reasons. And the people who would die in the inevitable next wave of rebellions, and the wave after that.
As for the Yuuzhan Vong, the things you say are so ridiculous that I don't even have to say anything here. I'll quote wookieepedia: "Sometime between being dispatched to the Unknown Regions in 3 ABY, at the time of the Battle of Hoth, and his return in 9 ABY, now-Grand Admiral Thrawn apparently encountered the Yuuzhan Vong advance force hiding in the Unknown Regions. The threat of the advancing invaders was one of his primary motivations for trying to reunify the Empire, as he felt that the Empire stood a much better chance against the Vong than did the New Republic. The Yuuzhan Vong advance scouts themselves shared that sentiment. After the formation of the Imperial Interim Council in 11 ABY, following the final death of the reborn Emperor Palpatine, Yuuzhan Vong executor Nom Anor was tasked to infiltrate the Council. He did so and manipulated its leader, Xandel Carivus, arranging the deaths of many Councilors and furthering the internal strife between the leaders of the fracturing Empire.". The YV themselves were wary of the Empire much more, what more do you need to know?
Yes, Thrawn and others believed the Empire would have stood a better chance. Their belief does not make it fact - it remains speculation. Thrawn also believed that the Rebellion had no chance against the Empire - the man was brilliant, but not infallible.
As for the flaws of their superweapons, there was this whole thing about the Death Star plans, including the moment when Palpatine himself allowed the Rebels to have them (plans of the second Death Star), due to underestimation. There would surely be no underestimation of the Yuuzhan Vong, I think it's safe to say.
I don't. Imperial officers consistently underestimated their enemies, which caused a significant number of their defeats. The superweapon point is more of a joke than a serious argument, but I do think it helps expose a flaw in Imperial thinking regarding military doctrine.
And even tactics-wise, the Empire was much more suited to fight open aggression, rather than insurgencies such as the Rebel Alliance.
And their lack of flexibility doomed them.
The Yuuzhan Vong with their worldships would hardly stand a chance, which is what they themselves realized. And do you really think that if Thrawn was alive, he would be defeated by the Vong? Killing him was probably the worst thing the NR could do for the sake of the galaxy. "The Yuuzhan Vong nearly destroyed the New Republic, and were responsible for the deaths of nearly 365 trillion sentient beings during their invasion of the galaxy.". 365 trillion sentient beings. Yeah, pretty sure the Empire would do better.
Thrawn was defeated by the New Republic - the Battle of Bilbringi was already going badly before he was killed. Again, the man was brilliant, but not perfect, and how well or badly he would have done against the Vong is pure speculation because he got himself killed long before he could face them (and yes, getting killed by the member of your pet slave race that you made your bodyguard is 100% your fault).
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Never said they did - my point is that it's a false equivalency. Just because both have blood on their hands doesn't mean both have equal amounts of it.
I agree, I didn't intend it to sound as if the two are equal in terms of the amount of atrocities committed, I was merely trying to make it clear that the Rebellion's hands are far from being clean either, and that they overstepped their mark in terms of violence very often. But we pretty much agree here.
Rebellions do not spring out of the ground without plenty of fertilizer being dumped on the population first. Stable governments that keep the people happy are not brought down by rebellions - a rebellion only gains strength as more and more citizens decide the government to be corrupt or otherwise worth fighting against. A few charismatic but corrupt leaders of a Rebellion simply will not get enough support to bring down the government, so their motives really don't matter to the point I am making.
This is a purist's/idealist's opinion, with all due respect. The truth is far more complicated. As someone who took part, albeit a small one, in a revolution/rebellion, I know exactly what it feels like, when an oppressive government is being rallied against by a group of ambitious politicians. What you said is certainly true, in terms of the sentiments of the population, which in itself doesn't speak well for the government which is being overthrown (there usually always is a reason), however it's not quite as true when it comes to the authority figures of any such movement. People who manipulate the civilian population to revolt against the government, in 99% pursue something else rather then pure idealistic goals for the masses, they do it for themselves. A succesful rebellion allows them to come into power, and no rebellion is faceless, there is always someone pulling the strings. And this someone wouldn't risk it for nothing, and that is a simple fact. Each such new government is then judged over time. The promises are being given to the public, which expects the new government to do better then the previous one. Time then tells, whether or not those promises were kept. In the case of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic, their government failed spectacularly at its basic task of protecting its own civilian population. 365 trillion people of all species have perished during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion only (something you haven't touched upon in your previous reply). The corruption of some of the members of the new goverment started to show, proven by the assension to power of characters such as Borsk Fey'lya. And the failure of the New Republic to achieve a diplomatic solution with any one of their multiple opposition pre-Yuuzhan Vong invasion resulted in only more death and suffering of innocent people.
I actually completely missed your post, sorry. That said, huge amounts of history and political action have been motivated by belief in causes, not simply selfish personal gain. People fight for what they believe to be right at great personal cost, often including their lives, all the time.
I commented on this above, but I'll add that people indeed fight for what they believe, but only when they're pushed to do so. And every rebellion has someone pulling the strings. In my book, someone who encourages people to fight against all odds against a militaristic regime knowing the inevitable amount of casualties on both sides that such action will ensure should AT LEAST be held responsible for it and not be mindlessly trusted. And unfortunately, I speak from experience when I say it.
You are talking about a government that came into power through deception and manipulating a civil war into existence - how were they being sincere and not hiding things?
I admit that maybe my phrasing in this instance has been subpar. I will never argue against the fact that the Empire was "evil", although I think I already said everything I should have on it in my second comment on this thread. What I meant, essentially, is that the Empire promised peace and stability to the galaxy, and it delivered. There were 19 years of peace before the Galactic Civil War was started by the Rebel Alliance. And it simply is something that the New Republic never managed to do, constantly dragging the galaxy into war again since its succesion of the Empire as the leading power in the galaxy.
False equivalency. Punching someone in the face and beating them into a bloody pulp are both felony assault, but they are not the same thing by any reasonable moral standard.
I agree, but this wasn't the point I was making, as I said above.
Source? (edit: and who the hell brings their kids onto a military installation like the Death Star? That is knowingly putting your child in harm's way and the fault of the parents in my book)
I'm sorry, but I didn't think I'd have to explain this to a Star Wars fan. The Death Star is a fully autonomous military station, with 1.7 million crewmembers, including their families. Considering the amount of time the crew would have to spend in service they were practically living there, hence the presense of children on board. If people who worked on the Death Star had kids, the kids would be living with them there, wouldn't they? I believe the Death Star was believed (falsely) to be invincible by the Imperials, so I don't see what makes it weird. After all, it was designed to be a fully independant station not only for battle, but for living as well. As for the source, I mean come on, really? You didn't know that? Fine, here's the link to the wookieepedia page about the Death Star - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DS-1_Orbital_Battle_Station. Before you say it, yes, there is no confirmation or direct quotes about children on board, but I view it as an incredibly obvious and simple assumption to make. However, I didn't bring it up as an example of an evil act committed by the Rebellion, I simply viewed it as an interesting fact, that more innocents actually died as a result of the "good guys winning".
Except for, you know, people the Empire killed over time for whatever reasons. And the people who would die in the inevitable next wave of rebellions, and the wave after that.
As much as you like saying about me "purely speculting" on certain things, this is pure speculation on your part as well.
Yes, Thrawn and others believed the Empire would have stood a better chance. Their belief does not make it fact - it remains speculation. Thrawn also believed that the Rebellion had no chance against the Empire - the man was brilliant, but not infallible.
I brought up Thrawn merely as an example, not as the only person who could defeat the YV. My point was not what the Imperials believed in. The part in my comment that you ignored (or missed) was that the Yuuzhan Vong themselves feared the Empire much more than the New Republic. I can't remember in which book exactly, from the top of my head, because it was quite a while since I read them, but there were several conversations between Nom Anor and Shimrra Jamaane, as well as Tsavong Lah and/or Onimi about how fortunate they were that the Empire was defeated and no longer in power. I'll search for the exact quote, and I'll comment on it later if I do. But still, you surely know that Nom Anor spent pretty much all of his time prior to the invasion trying to weaken the Imperial Remnant, and not the New Republic? Doesn't it make it obvious in itself?
I don't. Imperial officers consistently underestimated their enemies, which caused a significant number of their defeats. The superweapon point is more of a joke than a serious argument, but I do think it helps expose a flaw in Imperial thinking regarding military doctrine. And their lack of flexibility doomed them.
They did underestimate every foe who were seemingly weaker than them. I was talking about the Yuuzhan Vong (it frustrates me a bit that I have to point out such an obvious point, but whatever). An Empire of such standing, such aggressive views on humanity, technology, and such advanced biological weaponry was never at risk of being underestimated. Hell, Palpatine himself knew about their existence way before the invasion, and there are even theories that amongst the reasons the Death Star was built was to have it as a means to stop them (although that indeed is what you call "pure speculation", so I won't dwell on it much further). And what I said about the tactics, was once againt about the YV. As you say, there was an apparent lack of flexibilty. However, the YV were EXACTLY what such a military machine was created for, a PERFECT enemy. All of the Star Destroyers, Battlecruisers, Star Dreadnoughts, Death Stars, Galaxy Guns, World Devastators, Suncrushers, etc. The Empire would have protected the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong, as simple as that. A speculation, yes, but with serious arguments going for it. Again, 365 TRILLION sentient being were killed by the Yuuzhan Vong. It's not all military personnel, is it? No, it's the civilian population of the galaxy, which the New Republic failed to protect. Somehow, I feel the Empire wouldn't end up failing quite as badly.
Thrawn was defeated by the New Republic - the Battle of Bilbringi was already going badly before he was killed. Again, the man was brilliant, but not perfect, and how well or badly he would have done against the Vong is pure speculation because he got himself killed long before he could face them (and yes, getting killed by the member of your pet slave race that you made your bodyguard is 100% your fault).
As I said above, Thrawn was only an example, I don't view him as Empire's only hope of defeating the Vong. And no, it doesn't make it 100% your fault when you are not responsible for the polution of the home planet of your bodyguard which triggers him to kill you, especially if it's a New Republic representative urging him to do so.
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Source? (edit: and who the hell brings their kids onto a military installation like the Death Star? That is knowingly putting your child in harm's way and the fault of the parents in my book)
Pealloen in the Thrawn trilogy comments on this (I think it is the first chapter of Heir to The Empire)
He said something about children that join since they were poor manned on the executor. He said he watch the children on that ship collide with the death star.
Btw people failed to understand that the rebels recruited groups like Death Watch, Former Murders, smugglers, pirates, bounty hunters, terrorists, and most were exploiting the government
Also almost all governments have rebellions: The American Government, The British Empire, Soviet Union, Even modern America has people who want to rebel against the government based on decisions.
We cant compare the star was universe to our real world governments. We are one planet, and if you look at the star wars galaxy their are more planets with different cultures and most wont get alone
and in the star wars universe death watch rebels because they aren't their "warrior way" which is a example of a could government being rebel against.
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A few things I would like to point out.
19 years of 'peace' if you ignore the subjugation and enslavement of entire worlds during that time period, the brutal crackdowns and military purges. Peace is more of a nominal thing as the Empire didn't call these actions 'wars' even though short as they were individually they collectively were constant during those 19 years.
Pellaeon's line about the Executor is more a reference to how many talented younger officers died on it due to the disproportionate transfers to the ship, as it was seen as a fast way to promotion.
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A few things I would like to point out.
19 years of 'peace' if you ignore the subjugation and enslavement of entire worlds during that time period, the brutal crackdowns and military purges. Peace is more of a nominal thing as the Empire didn't call these actions 'wars' even though short as they were individually they collectively were constant during those 19 years.
True, I actually thought about it being my weakest argument. Although it does speak more about the Empire being an oppressive government, rather than the point I was making, as such actions are still different to full-blown, galactic-wide wars. It's a horrible deed to commit, no doubt. However, most of the galaxy was at peace at the time. And I still persist that the Empire was a more stable government, and their more fear-inducing military meant that other forces in (and outside of) the galaxy were significantly less eager to oppose them, contrary to the New Republic in later times.
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Well, I had a much longer and more detailed post almost ready to go, but my iPad decided to eat it and I don't have the time tonight to rewrite it. So rather than continue to get bogged down in minutia (and frustrate myself by retyping a bunch), I think we've gone in the wrong direction for this post and I'd like to try and put it back on track. We've been discussing the Rebellion/NR and Empire from an historical perspective, analyzing mistakes and the like, but the original question of the thread is which would we prefer to live under - and I don't think we should be answering that with the benefit of hindsight, but as a person in the moment.
So I say think of it this way: you are an Imperial citizen living on Coruscant when the Battle of Endor happens and you hear the Emperor and Vader are dead. You know nothing for certain of what will come, you've never heard of the Vong, but you are pretty well informed on recent history and current events. What is your reaction?
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So I say think of it this way: you are an Imperial citizen living on Coruscant when the Battle of Endor happens and you hear the Emperor and Vader are dead. You know nothing for certain of what will come, you've never heard of the Vong, but you are pretty well informed on recent history and current events. What is your reaction?
I would freak out and help try to maintain control since I would know those rebels and their terrorist buddies would launch a full scale invasion killing millions. I might board a ship leaving becoming a smuggler or journeying to the PA's territory.
Is while I am a imperial I still don't fully trust the Empire so I bail out
I would join under Thrawn and when Thrawn Dies journey to Bastion hide out until Pealleon takes power.
Probably join the IR and Fel Empire
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Well, I had a much longer and more detailed post almost ready to go, but my iPad decided to eat it and I don't have the time tonight to rewrite it. So rather than continue to get bogged down in minutia (and frustrate myself by retyping a bunch), I think we've gone in the wrong direction for this post and I'd like to try and put it back on track. We've been discussing the Rebellion/NR and Empire from an historical perspective, analyzing mistakes and the like, but the original question of the thread is which would we prefer to live under - and I don't think we should be answering that with the benefit of hindsight, but as a person in the moment.
So I say think of it this way: you are an Imperial citizen living on Coruscant when the Battle of Endor happens and you hear the Emperor and Vader are dead. You know nothing for certain of what will come, you've never heard of the Vong, but you are pretty well informed on recent history and current events. What is your reaction?
I'd be one of those guys tearing down the statue of Palpatine. I may be human, but my Togrutan friend has been constantly put down by the Empire's oppressive policies and I'm glad things may finally start to change.
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I'd be one of those guys tearing down the statue of Palpatine. I may be human, but my Togrutan friend has been constantly put down by the Empire's oppressive policies and I'm glad things may finally start to change.
no offense but along with the threat of being shot by imperial forces the rebel invasion of coursant would bring doom and ruin to many especially when the Lysanyka is extracted by that crazy bitch IceHeart
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no offense but along with the threat of being shot by imperial forces the rebel invasion of coursant would bring doom and ruin to many especially when the Lysanyka is extracted by that crazy bitch IceHeart
You are looking with hindsight - I'm asking for a decision given available information in the moment.
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Flock to the NR where I don't have to pray to a dead religion for the sake of a guy who killed trillions for lols. Or pretend to be racist. Or pretend I like slavery.
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Unless we're in the lower levels of Coruscant we've probably been flooded with imperial propaganda. It's almost impossible to get an unbiased view.
So here's a really basic comparison
Empire: a strong mostly stable humanocentric government that's effectively governed by the military. Cool things like safer galaxy and ability to get high in the military if your good enough. Not cool things like slavery haveing a Sith as your emperor and a silly amount of oppression (like that planet from wraith squadron where the empire technologically regressed the entire planet to the medieval age and makes them crawl in the mud and beg for food, now that's one planet you don't want to serve the empire under) Will not stop until everyone is a cog in the great machine of the empire.
Republics: a less strong less stable, but not actually weak government, started by some people who didn't like the empire. Cool things like equality the and democracy also has Jedi sometimes. Not cool things like Borsk Feyla. And maybe other politics? Also do some very dumb things sometimes. (Mostly Borsks fault) Has a weaker military but is actively working on making the Galaxy a better place.
(This is assuming the empire under Palps or Isard or something.)
(Feel free to add other points, but don't be full of bias (looking at you admiralthrawn2))
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I think it worth pointing out that Borsk Fey'lya, on the uncool scale, is no match for enslaving billions. ;) He's also not someone anyone at the time of Endor would have yet heard of, so he doesn't fit within the bounds of my question.
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Well, I had a much longer and more detailed post almost ready to go, but my iPad decided to eat it and I don't have the time tonight to rewrite it. So rather than continue to get bogged down in minutia (and frustrate myself by retyping a bunch), I think we've gone in the wrong direction for this post and I'd like to try and put it back on track. We've been discussing the Rebellion/NR and Empire from an historical perspective, analyzing mistakes and the like, but the original question of the thread is which would we prefer to live under - and I don't think we should be answering that with the benefit of hindsight, but as a person in the moment.
So I say think of it this way: you are an Imperial citizen living on Coruscant when the Battle of Endor happens and you hear the Emperor and Vader are dead. You know nothing for certain of what will come, you've never heard of the Vong, but you are pretty well informed on recent history and current events. What is your reaction?
I feel for you, that's sad to hear, but it happens sometimes, unfortunately, I lost so many messages that way, too.
As for the point of this thread, I think I already answered it at the very start, by saying that I'm only speaking for myself and no one else, and that I wouldn't feel safe living under the New Republic, feeling that the Empire (at this moment of time the IR) is much better qualified/suited to rule the galaxy. I wouldn't have completely trusted the Remnant under Isard and the reborn Palpatine, however I'd maintain the pretence of my loyalty to them, because I still view the NR as a destabilizing element in the galaxy with unclear goals and motivations. I do think, though, that the IR flourished under Thrawn and much later Pellaeon, who abolished xenophobia and pretty much everything that people hated about the Empire. But to answer your question, if the choice was only between the Empire under Pestage (right after Endor) or the NR, I would still choose the former. So, I'd remain loyal to the Empire. But that's only what I would do, I'm not saying whether it's a right thing to do for everyone or not, and I understand and respect every other opinion and choice on the matter.
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Which is really what most of the Galaxy did even if they didn't like the Empire. They were still waiting to see whether the NR would live up to its promises and thus the safe bet was the just hang back and watch.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTCRRNfOJgE
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It seems like a lot of us earthlings like the Empire more than the Rebellion, which seems likely, considering that we are also humanocentric (even more specific in some cases), and the Empire's military and political system can be accessed by humans of any social class and you can advance based on skill and loyalty (plus a lot of boot licking)
Meanwhile the Rebellion/NR is headed by mostly people with old families/noble house backgrounds, advancement is based largely on who you know (a number one complaint in the working world) and humans are not the dominant force. For those with loftier ideals, this easy to ignore, but in most sci-fis, don't you root for the humans almost automatically?
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For those with loftier ideals, this easy to ignore, but in most sci-fis, don't you root for the humans almost automatically?
Yes, but that's because humans are usually the main characters, and the main characters are usually the people you root for in a story. Humans are the main characters to keep the audience engaged and empathetic with them, as its easier to put yourself in another human's shoes than in those of a creature with four legs and a tail (it's also easier to convincingly write internal perspectives of humans rather than try to invent alien thinking, which is why most aliens in most sci-fi or fantasy are essentially just humans-but-different-looking so that we can empathize with them as well).
If you're rooting for the humans when they are the oppressors and slavers just because they are human and the slaves aliens, then you are rooting for the wrong team. It may be natural, but that doesn't make it right.
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If you're rooting for the humans when they are the oppressors and slavers just because they are human and the slaves aliens, then you are rooting for the wrong team. It may be natural, but that doesn't make it right.
That's a bit of an oversimplification, though, don't you think? Obviously not, since you said it, so it's a rhetorical question. It seems to me that you have been oversimplifying things throughout this entire thread, maybe to not be at risk of expressing controversial opinions, I don't know. I hope you realize that it's only your opinion that you are expressing, after all, similarly to how what I say is only mine. I can't imagine what empowers you to declare what is right and what is wrong for everyone. I'm sorry for my tone, but I don't think it's fair of you to say so. I certainly do not identify myself with the racial prejudices of the Empire, and it never was amongst my reasoning to "root" for them. And I can't imagine anyone, certainly on this thread and forum, advocating such practices. This would be a much more prudent discussion without so much bias, to be honest.
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That's a bit of an oversimplification, though, don't you think?... I'm sorry for my tone, but I don't think it's fair of you to say so. I certainly do not identify myself with the racial prejudices of the Empire, and it never was amongst my reasoning to "root" for them.
I think you may need to read what I posted more closely. I said if you are rooting for the humans just because they are humans, despite them being slavers, then you are rooting for the wrong side (for bad reasons was the intended implication). I did not say anyone here was doing so, I was simply responding to a suggested reason that people might be identifying with the Empire.
Now, do I think that rooting for the Empire is rooting for the racist slavers? Yes, because the Empire was objectively a state that enslaved along racial lines - this is a fact so far as the fiction goes. There are certainly plenty of other aspects to the Empire, but racism and slavery are part and parcel of what it was. I'm not saying anyone is rooting for the Empire because of the racism and slavery, but I do find it disturbing how those two aspects seem to be acceptable in the name of stability and order for some.
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Agreed, I would be fine with living in a slightly less stable state that I agree with morally, no slavery, little racism, freedom of speech and democracy. I'm not about to give up what i believe in for a more 'stable' government.
On another note is the empire really that stable? Once the emperor was kill 95% of the empire was lost to petty warlords and rebels in just 15 years. Even if he wasn't killed by the rebellion his reign would have ended eventually (even with clone bodys)
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I think you may need to read what I posted more closely. I said if you are rooting for the humans just because they are humans, despite them being slavers, then you are rooting for the wrong side (for bad reasons was the intended implication). I did not say anyone here was doing so, I was simply responding to a suggested reason that people might be identifying with the Empire.
Now, do I think that rooting for the Empire is rooting for the racist slavers? Yes, because the Empire was objectively a state that enslaved along racial lines - this is a fact so far as the fiction goes. There are certainly plenty of other aspects to the Empire, but racism and slavery are part and parcel of what it was. I'm not saying anyone is rooting for the Empire because of the racism and slavery, but I do find it disturbing how those two aspects seem to be acceptable in the name of stability and order for some.
Fair enough, I apologize again, I didn't mean to be rude. Well, when it comes to "rooting", I personally root for the Imperial Remnant under Pellaeon, with no racism and slavery (I think I said it already at the beginning of this thread). That's a regime I would be proudly loyal to. The thing about the Empire that I always found acceptable was its military might and willingness to protect its citizens at all times (as long as those citizens are human, regrettably, I admit). WarlordOfWildSpace was right when he said that people lean towards the Empire partly because of its humanocentrism. I do not condone it, and agree that such prejudice is definitely appalling, however, maybe it was indeed a starting point for my acknowledgement of the Empire, I'm not afraid to admit it. It's still much more than that, but I don't really want to continue the discussion in this thread, since I already said everything there was to say earlier, in my two large posts that were barely commented upon. I still do not agree entirely with your position, but I respect it, and due to aforementioned reasons I will not comment in this thread any further (unless someone posts something completely ridiculous, but I'll still try to ignore it). Regardless, it was quite interesting talking to you, so I thank you for your time, and have a great day! :)
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The post I lost earlier would've gone through your last big post almost point for point, but my iPad has problems with this site and lost it - often the chatbox won't show, and sometimes the formatting for the entire site is wrong. I think it was trying to stay "current" with the chatbox.
I tend to agree that this thread has run its course. Fun chatting with you all.
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Where my true loyalties will always lie, the Empire.
Besides, that's my only shot at commanding an Executor-Class.