Rebellion/NR Vs Empire/IR which would you live under?

[GreyStar]

The flaw in the Death Star caught the Empire off guard. The Vong could sneak by the Empire just the same.

[rednax]

Many of the empire successor states where not terrible, and some were probably better than the NR, if this arguments going to stop going around in circles, we (probably) need to choose either the Empire proper, or the remnant. Because both have many different factors to use as fuel For The NEVER ENDING FIRE OF INTERNET ARGUMENTS.

[Illidan Stormrage]

It is sad that Empire died and the good men of the Empire are turn into war criminals like Thrawn and Pealleon who are labeled as evil. the only true evil in the Empire is the Emperor.

[DarthRevansRevenge]

and Vader... and Tarkin... And Lemelisk... And Jerec... and Cronal... and....

[Illidan Stormrage]

and Vader... and Tarkin... And Lemelisk... And Jerec... and Cronal... and....

Tarkin was not evil he was just ruthless since he control sectors with a lot of rebels and Pirates

[rednax]

When you blow up a pacifist planet, you've gone passed ruthless.

[Pali]

Tarkin was not evil he was just ruthless since he control sectors with a lot of rebels and Pirates

So, having issues maintaining order and rule of law makes killing billions of people as a demonstration not evil somehow?  Unless those rebels and pirates were killing billions of people (they weren't), I'm going to say they were the lesser evil in this circumstance.

[Illidan Stormrage]

When you blow up a pacifist planet, you've gone passed ruthless.

A Planet selling weapons to terrorist and rebel groups

So, having issues maintaining order and rule of law makes killing billions of people as a demonstration not evil somehow?  Unless those rebels and pirates were killing billions of people (they weren't), I'm going to say they were the lesser evil in this circumstance.

You cant really run your sector and not be ruthless to Criminal and rebel cells, and if you cant maintain order and people are killing each other... Worst a more drastic measurers will be taken against criminals, and Rebel cells.

[DarthRevansRevenge]

A Planet selling weapons to terrorist and rebel groups

because the empire was terrorizing the whole galaxy and betraying all of Alderaan's principles. and you still don't go around blowing up planets. hitting the government and armed forces and installing stormtroopers would have sufficed

You cant really run your sector and not be ruthless to Criminal and rebel cells, and if you cant maintain order and people are killing each other... Worst a more drastic measurers will be taken against criminals, and Rebel cells.

ever heard the Saying "two wrongs do not make a right"? same concept. being more ruthless means more people hate you and will rebel. quoting Princess Leia

the more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers

did the death star inspir fear and terror? yes. did it make the universe lie down at Palpatine's feet? absolutely not. Ruthlessness is not the answer. maybe having less repressive policies, abolishing Slavery, less occupation, and more diplomacy would work. certainly better than a death star

[Slornie]

When you blow up a pacifist planet, you've gone passed ruthless.

A Planet selling weapons to terrorist and rebel groups

I'm sorry, but there's no way destroying an entire planet (or nation) based on the actions of its government or some citizens can be justified.  Using a real-world example that's like saying President Assad in Syria would be justified in nuking the US because Obama funded and armed the rebels (terrorists and other bad guys from Assad's perspective).

[Pali]

A Planet selling weapons to terrorist and rebel groups

So selling weapons should have the death penalty, both for you and for anyone within a few thousand miles of you?

You cant really run your sector and not be ruthless to Criminal and rebel cells, and if you cant maintain order and people are killing each other... Worst a more drastic measurers will be taken against criminals, and Rebel cells.

So if a part of a city has a lot of crime, it's okay to just burn down the city with everyone in it, children included?  That isn't an evil overreaction in your books, but is instead an understandable and justified act?

[Mr.Puerto]

TIL that the US can be blown up because we sell weapons to Terrorists and Rebel cells.

[Illidan Stormrage]

TIL that the US can be blown up because we sell weapons to Terrorists and Rebel cells.

This is the star wars universe Mr Puerto keep that in mind.

So selling weapons should have the death penalty, both for you and for anyone within a few thousand miles of you?

So if a part of a city has a lot of crime, it's okay to just burn down the city with everyone in it, children included?  That isn't an evil overreaction in your books, but is instead an understandable and justified act?

1.The entire government was involved and most people supported the actions. The planet was funding extremists groups, and rebel cells alike.
2. Well that is kind of the problem with these rebels, and terrorists they build bases in huge population centers(there are exceptions like hoth and yavin 4 which justifies the force they use since they were remote) to hide them among the people. You can't be sure what to strike at. While maybe bombing rebel bases in population centers isn't really a smart tactic the Empire has explore alternatives, However the rarely work.
For example: Thrawn try to convince the night swan to surrender, and in return Thrawn can avoid huge causalities and also promises that the insurgents can go home and forget the event happen.
btw Did the 1.7 million inhabitants of the Death Star not have backstories, families or children? Is it not possible that they were just doing their jobs whether they agreed with the Empire’s foreign policies or not? In any case they were all wiped out in one genocidal act by Luke  to which Han Solo rejoices with the line, ‘Great shot. That was one in a million.’ It is noteable that only Luke and Han are honoured with medals at the end with the rest of the rebels altruistically looking on. No mention of those that actually devised the plan to destroy the Death Star or those that died sacrificing their lives for the rebel cause are mentioned or honored.
the victory is only temporary as the fight for worldly domination continues and always will continue as long as the battlefield and spoils of victory is land and property. War it seems makes for good business.

[GreyStar]

Han and Luke are the only ones who got medals, yes. Because what use would it be to award those who came up with the plan if it didn't work? After all, one pilot did it by the books, didn't take.

[Pali]

1.The entire government was involved and most people supported the actions. The planet was funding extremists groups, and rebel cells alike.

And this excuses the murder of hundreds of millions of children, as well as however many adults may have disagreed with or been ignorant of their govt.'s actions, how?

2. Well that is kind of the problem with these rebels, and terrorists they build bases in huge population centers(there are exceptions like hoth and yavin 4 which justifies the force they use since they were remote) to hide them among the people. You can't be sure what to strike at. While maybe bombing rebel bases in population centers isn't really a smart tactic the Empire has explore alternatives, However the rarely work.

Where do we see Rebel bases built in population centers?  You may have individual cells in cities, but that's a law-enforcement level concern, not a military one.  Also, I'm not questioning the effectiveness of the Empire's tactics for maintaining control - their lack of such is self-evident by it being brought down due to an internal rebellion - I'm questioning the morality of it.

btw Did the 1.7 million inhabitants of the Death Star not have backstories, families or children? Is it not possible that they were just doing their jobs whether they agreed with the Empire’s foreign policies or not? In any case they were all wiped out in one genocidal act by Luke  to which Han Solo rejoices with the line, ‘Great shot. That was one in a million.’

You need to watch the movie Clerks. The Death Star was a military installation, pure and simple, and everyone on it was a member of the Imperial military.  Yes, they were people, but they also signed up for the job - there's no mention of the Empire using forced conscription until after Endor.  The DSII may well have had civilian contractors aboard, but the reality is that by taking such a job you are a) accepting the risks involved in the work and b) endorsing the project and its intended uses by contributing to it.  There may have been slave laborers, and their loss is tragic but unavoidable collateral damage, but I suspect many of them would prefer to die with the station than see it built and even more people forced into slavery alongside them.

It is noteable that only Luke and Han are honoured with medals at the end with the rest of the rebels altruistically looking on. No mention of those that actually devised the plan to destroy the Death Star or those that died sacrificing their lives for the rebel cause are mentioned or honored.

That is how it is usually done - when a pilot makes ace, the mechanic doesn't get a medal.  The point of such decoration is that it is good for morale for your side to have heroes to emulate and successes to celebrate - nuance doesn't sell well to crowds.

War it seems makes for good business.

Not with capitalist economies, which Star Wars largely has, as war will cause market instability and destruction of capital.  It'll get a few people very rich and ruin a lot more people in the process, creating a net loss for the economy.

[Illidan Stormrage]

what about the rebels recruiting terrorists like death watch, pirates, and crime syndicates that murder children everyday.
More people die because the vong war had no true huge imperial force and commanders. the rebels fucked it up. How many children die because of the NR actions? answer: more than both planets combined.

[Bucman55]

what about the rebels recruiting terrorists like death watch, pirates, and crime syndicates that murder children everyday.
More people die because the vong war had no true huge imperial force and commanders. the rebels fucked it up. How many children die because of the NR actions? answer: more than both planets combined.

Maybe the reason the NR didn't do well in the Vong War is because nobody warned them. Palps knew ahead of time about the Vong threat, but nobody told the NR. How can someone be expected to fight off a threat they were never warned about?

[Lord Xizer]

Let me just say this, the Empire under Palpatine likely would have seen me joining those rebels. The man was evil and needed to be stopped. He drained oceans, depopulated worlds and murdered or banished people on whims of capriciousness or just plain sadistic malice. He even knew no gratitude, there's a telling point in the Bounty Hunter Wars where Xizor and Vader have a moment of actual unity where they realize together their only reward for loyal service would be to be consumed last by the Emperor. I think the IDEAL of the Empire at least under Pellaeon was something worth fighting for and believing in but under Palpatine it needed to be broken.

[Pali]

what about the rebels recruiting terrorists like death watch, pirates, and crime syndicates that murder children everyday.
More people die because the vong war had no true huge imperial force and commanders. the rebels fucked it up. How many children die because of the NR actions? answer: more than both planets combined.

As a rule, the Rebellion did not hire the more vicious parts of the underworld - there are a handful of cases of it happening, but the Empire made deals with such as a matter of course (and while high echelons of the military may have disdained the use of bounty hunters, keep in mind that many of those men could just as accurately be called Republic officers, since many likely joined during the Clone Wars, and much of their thinking would still be based on older, honorable standards that predate the Empire). Edit: and it bears repeating that the Empire didn't need to hire outside for its child killing and torture because it was pretty comfortable handling such work itself.

The idea that the Empire would have handled the Vong better is, I think, flawed in several ways.  First, and most important, is that it didn't survive long enough to face the Vong to begin with, and the fault here lies solely on the Empire's actions - the Rebellion exists in the first place because the Empire made living within it intolerable to enough people that they were willing to Rebel.  In short, the Rebellion is the Empire's fault in the first place - it's own flaws are the reason it failed.  Second, there is the flaw in Imperial thinking and doctrine that Han Solo points out: the Empire may very well have focused on building the biggest and baddest Vong-killing superweapon, only to have some minor flaw cause it to fail spectacularly and waste all the effort and resources. 

Third, the NR had the military might to have blunted the Vong invasion, but not the political will or consensus to deploy it effectively or in time.  There's an unstated assumption that the Imperial leadership would have been united decisively against the Vong, but the truth is we have no idea how they would have reacted - would the Moff Council have held together, or would it have splintered as Moffs tried to make deals with the Vong to ensure their own survival?  What if something went wrong early on, like Palpatine being killed - would the Empire have managed to survive a succession crisis during the Vong invasion?  Saying the Empire would have handled it better is pure speculation, and I can easily come up with ways that it may well have handled the Vong invasion worse than the NR did.

[Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus]

As a rule, the Rebellion did not hire the more vicious parts of the underworld - there are a handful of cases of it happening, but the Empire made deals with such as a matter of course (and while high echelons of the military may have disdained the use of bounty hunters, keep in mind that many of those men could just as accurately be called Republic officers, since many likely joined during the Clone Wars, and much of their thinking would still be based on older, honorable standards that predate the Empire). Edit: and it bears repeating that the Empire didn't need to hire outside for its child killing and torture because it was pretty comfortable handling such work itself.

The idea that the Empire would have handled the Vong better is, I think, flawed in several ways.  First, and most important, is that it didn't survive long enough to face the Vong to begin with, and the fault here lies solely on the Empire's actions - the Rebellion exists in the first place because the Empire made living within it intolerable to enough people that they were willing to Rebel.  In short, the Rebellion is the Empire's fault in the first place - it's own flaws are the reason it failed.  Second, there is the flaw in Imperial thinking and doctrine that Han Solo points out: the Empire may very well have focused on building the biggest and baddest Vong-killing superweapon, only to have some minor flaw cause it to fail spectacularly and waste all the effort and resources. 

Third, the NR had the military might to have blunted the Vong invasion, but not the political will or consensus to deploy it effectively or in time.  There's an unstated assumption that the Imperial leadership would have been united decisively against the Vong, but the truth is we have no idea how they would have reacted - would the Moff Council have held together, or would it have splintered as Moffs tried to make deals with the Vong to ensure their own survival?  What if something went wrong early on, like Palpatine being killed - would the Empire have managed to survive a succession crisis during the Vong invasion?  Saying the Empire would have handled it better is pure speculation, and I can easily come up with ways that it may well have handled the Vong invasion worse than the NR did.

First of all, the evil acts of the Empire do not justify or excuse those of the Rebel Alliance/NR. And what you're saying about the fragmentation of the Empire is purely opinionated and subjective. The Rebellion's sole purpose was to destroy the Empire. Their eventual succes doesn't mean that it is Empire's fault. From all we know, the Rebellion was born out of ambition of its leaders. I said before that the Empire and the Rebellion are two sides of the same coin. To think that the Rebels were in any way a force of good in the galaxy is incredibly naive. I said everything I had to say on this subject in my previous comment, which you decided to not respond to, but I'll have to repeat it, I guess. If real-life politics are anything to go by, and if the politics of Star Wars were indeed modeled and based on the real world, it means that the main reason was always personal and selfish gain first and foremost, so I don't think we should get disillusioned here. The Empire, if anything, was much more obviously evil and didn't hide anything, were more or less sincere in what they did and promised for the galaxy. The RA kept destabilizing the galaxy, and continued to antagonize the Empire at all times, resulting in deaths of millions of innocents. Surely the Empire committed some horrible atrocities, but so did the Rebels. To a lesser extent, but nonetheless. What you said about the Death Star only having military personnel on board is not true, there were hundreds of thousands of children of the people employed there. There was no way for the Rebels to retrieve them all before blowing up the Death Star, of course, but this fact is interesting, because it means that if Yavin IV was destroyed then, as planned, the amount of casualties would be significantly lesser. Yavin IV was an uninhabited moon with one military base. The war would be over, no more deaths in the galaxy. Interesting, isn't it? As for the Yuuzhan Vong, the things you say are so ridiculous that I don't even have to say anything here. I'll quote wookieepedia: "Sometime between being dispatched to the Unknown Regions in 3 ABY, at the time of the Battle of Hoth, and his return in 9 ABY, now-Grand Admiral Thrawn apparently encountered the Yuuzhan Vong advance force hiding in the Unknown Regions. The threat of the advancing invaders was one of his primary motivations for trying to reunify the Empire, as he felt that the Empire stood a much better chance against the Vong than did the New Republic. The Yuuzhan Vong advance scouts themselves shared that sentiment. After the formation of the Imperial Interim Council in 11 ABY, following the final death of the reborn Emperor Palpatine, Yuuzhan Vong executor Nom Anor was tasked to infiltrate the Council. He did so and manipulated its leader, Xandel Carivus, arranging the deaths of many Councilors and furthering the internal strife between the leaders of the fracturing Empire.". The YV themselves were wary of the Empire much more, what more do you need to know? As for the flaws of their superweapons, there was this whole thing about the Death Star plans, including the moment when Palpatine himself allowed the Rebels to have them (plans of the second Death Star), due to underestimation. There would surely be no underestimation of the Yuuzhan Vong, I think it's safe to say. And even tactics-wise, the Empire was much more suited to fight open aggression, rather than insurgencies such as the Rebel Alliance. The Yuuzhan Vong with their worldships would hardly stand a chance, which is what they themselves realized. And do you really think that if Thrawn was alive, he would be defeated by the Vong? Killing him was probably the worst thing the NR could do for the sake of the galaxy. "The Yuuzhan Vong nearly destroyed the New Republic, and were responsible for the deaths of nearly 365 trillion sentient beings during their invasion of the galaxy.". 365 trillion sentient beings. Yeah, pretty sure the Empire would do better.