Rebellion/NR Vs Empire/IR which would you live under?

[rednax]

Going to reply to that video first because I just can't type that much. 
Point 1 ( from the video) those guys were literally kicked out of the rebel alliance for being to extreme AND it's a different continuity to the one we usually argue about.
Point 2 is actually a good one, and without doing any of my own research I can't really disagree.
Point 3 waiting for the Death Star 2 to be finished is pretty much the stupidest thing anyone could have done. Seriously. Why.
And then my favorite part of the video, when the guy who made it specifically says that the Empire is much worse.

[Pali]

First of all, the evil acts of the Empire do not justify or excuse those of the Rebel Alliance/NR.

Never said they did - my point is that it's a false equivalency.  Just because both have blood on their hands doesn't mean both have equal amounts of it.

And what you're saying about the fragmentation of the Empire is purely opinionated and subjective. The Rebellion's sole purpose was to destroy the Empire. Their eventual succes doesn't mean that it is Empire's fault. From all we know, the Rebellion was born out of ambition of its leaders.

Rebellions do not spring out of the ground without plenty of fertilizer being dumped on the population first.  Stable governments that keep the people happy are not brought down by rebellions - a rebellion only gains strength as more and more citizens decide the government to be corrupt or otherwise worth fighting against.  A few charismatic but corrupt leaders of a Rebellion simply will not get enough support to bring down the government, so their motives really don't matter to the point I am making.

I said before that the Empire and the Rebellion are two sides of the same coin. To think that the Rebels were in any way a force of good in the galaxy is incredibly naive. I said everything I had to say on this subject in my previous comment, which you decided to not respond to, but I'll have to repeat it, I guess. If real-life politics are anything to go by, and if the politics of Star Wars were indeed modeled and based on the real world, it means that the main reason was always personal and selfish gain first and foremost, so I don't think we should get disillusioned here.

I actually completely missed your post, sorry.  That said, huge amounts of history and political action have been motivated by belief in causes, not simply selfish personal gain.  People fight for what they believe to be right at great personal cost, often including their lives, all the time.

The Empire, if anything, was much more obviously evil and didn't hide anything, were more or less sincere in what they did and promised for the galaxy.

You are talking about a government that came into power through deception and manipulating a civil war into existence - how were they being sincere and not hiding things?

The RA kept destabilizing the galaxy, and continued to antagonize the Empire at all times, resulting in deaths of millions of innocents. Surely the Empire committed some horrible atrocities, but so did the Rebels. To a lesser extent, but nonetheless.

False equivalency.  Punching someone in the face and beating them into a bloody pulp are both felony assault, but they are not the same thing by any reasonable moral standard.

What you said about the Death Star only having military personnel on board is not true, there were hundreds of thousands of children of the people employed there.

Source? (edit: and who the hell brings their kids onto a military installation like the Death Star?  That is knowingly putting your child in harm's way and the fault of the parents in my book)

There was no way for the Rebels to retrieve them all before blowing up the Death Star, of course, but this fact is interesting, because it means that if Yavin IV was destroyed then, as planned, the amount of casualties would be significantly lesser. Yavin IV was an uninhabited moon with one military base. The war would be over, no more deaths in the galaxy. Interesting, isn't it?

Except for, you know, people the Empire killed over time for whatever reasons.  And the people who would die in the inevitable next wave of rebellions, and the wave after that.

As for the Yuuzhan Vong, the things you say are so ridiculous that I don't even have to say anything here. I'll quote wookieepedia: "Sometime between being dispatched to the Unknown Regions in 3 ABY, at the time of the Battle of Hoth, and his return in 9 ABY, now-Grand Admiral Thrawn apparently encountered the Yuuzhan Vong advance force hiding in the Unknown Regions. The threat of the advancing invaders was one of his primary motivations for trying to reunify the Empire, as he felt that the Empire stood a much better chance against the Vong than did the New Republic. The Yuuzhan Vong advance scouts themselves shared that sentiment. After the formation of the Imperial Interim Council in 11 ABY, following the final death of the reborn Emperor Palpatine, Yuuzhan Vong executor Nom Anor was tasked to infiltrate the Council. He did so and manipulated its leader, Xandel Carivus, arranging the deaths of many Councilors and furthering the internal strife between the leaders of the fracturing Empire.". The YV themselves were wary of the Empire much more, what more do you need to know?

Yes, Thrawn and others believed the Empire would have stood a better chance.  Their belief does not make it fact - it remains speculation.  Thrawn also believed that the Rebellion had no chance against the Empire - the man was brilliant, but not infallible.

As for the flaws of their superweapons, there was this whole thing about the Death Star plans, including the moment when Palpatine himself allowed the Rebels to have them (plans of the second Death Star), due to underestimation. There would surely be no underestimation of the Yuuzhan Vong, I think it's safe to say.

I don't.  Imperial officers consistently underestimated their enemies, which caused a significant number of their defeats.  The superweapon point is more of a joke than a serious argument, but I do think it helps expose a flaw in Imperial thinking regarding military doctrine.

And even tactics-wise, the Empire was much more suited to fight open aggression, rather than insurgencies such as the Rebel Alliance.

And their lack of flexibility doomed them.

The Yuuzhan Vong with their worldships would hardly stand a chance, which is what they themselves realized. And do you really think that if Thrawn was alive, he would be defeated by the Vong? Killing him was probably the worst thing the NR could do for the sake of the galaxy. "The Yuuzhan Vong nearly destroyed the New Republic, and were responsible for the deaths of nearly 365 trillion sentient beings during their invasion of the galaxy.". 365 trillion sentient beings. Yeah, pretty sure the Empire would do better.

Thrawn was defeated by the New Republic - the Battle of Bilbringi was already going badly before he was killed.  Again, the man was brilliant, but not perfect, and how well or badly he would have done against the Vong is pure speculation because he got himself killed long before he could face them (and yes, getting killed by the member of your pet slave race that you made your bodyguard is 100% your fault).

[Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus]

Never said they did - my point is that it's a false equivalency.  Just because both have blood on their hands doesn't mean both have equal amounts of it.

I agree, I didn't intend it to sound as if the two are equal in terms of the amount of atrocities committed, I was merely trying to make it clear that the Rebellion's hands are far from being clean either, and that they overstepped their mark in terms of violence very often. But we pretty much agree here.

Rebellions do not spring out of the ground without plenty of fertilizer being dumped on the population first.  Stable governments that keep the people happy are not brought down by rebellions - a rebellion only gains strength as more and more citizens decide the government to be corrupt or otherwise worth fighting against.  A few charismatic but corrupt leaders of a Rebellion simply will not get enough support to bring down the government, so their motives really don't matter to the point I am making.

This is a purist's/idealist's opinion, with all due respect. The truth is far more complicated. As someone who took part, albeit a small one, in a revolution/rebellion, I know exactly what it feels like, when an oppressive government is being rallied against by a group of ambitious politicians. What you said is certainly true, in terms of the sentiments of the population, which in itself doesn't speak well for the government which is being overthrown (there usually always is a reason), however it's not quite as true when it comes to the authority figures of any such movement. People who manipulate the civilian population to revolt against the government, in 99% pursue something else rather then pure idealistic goals for the masses, they do it for themselves. A succesful rebellion allows them to come into power, and no rebellion is faceless, there is always someone pulling the strings. And this someone wouldn't risk it for nothing, and that is a simple fact. Each such new government is then judged over time. The promises are being given to the public, which expects the new government to do better then the previous one. Time then tells, whether or not those promises were kept. In the case of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic, their government failed spectacularly at its basic task of protecting its own civilian population. 365 trillion people of all species have perished during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion only (something you haven't touched upon in your previous reply). The corruption of some of the members of the new goverment started to show, proven by the assension to power of characters such as Borsk Fey'lya. And the failure of the New Republic to achieve a diplomatic solution with any one of their multiple opposition pre-Yuuzhan Vong invasion resulted in only more death and suffering of innocent people.

I actually completely missed your post, sorry.  That said, huge amounts of history and political action have been motivated by belief in causes, not simply selfish personal gain.  People fight for what they believe to be right at great personal cost, often including their lives, all the time.

I commented on this above, but I'll add that people indeed fight for what they believe, but only when they're pushed to do so. And every rebellion has someone pulling the strings. In my book, someone who encourages people to fight against all odds against a militaristic regime knowing the inevitable amount of casualties on both sides that such action will ensure should AT LEAST be held responsible for it and not be mindlessly trusted. And unfortunately, I speak from experience when I say it.

You are talking about a government that came into power through deception and manipulating a civil war into existence - how were they being sincere and not hiding things?

I admit that maybe my phrasing in this instance has been subpar. I will never argue against the fact that the Empire was "evil", although I think I already said everything I should have on it in my second comment on this thread. What I meant, essentially, is that the Empire promised peace and stability to the galaxy, and it delivered. There were 19 years of peace before the Galactic Civil War was started by the Rebel Alliance. And it simply is something that the New Republic never managed to do, constantly dragging the galaxy into war again since its succesion of the Empire as the leading power in the galaxy.

False equivalency.  Punching someone in the face and beating them into a bloody pulp are both felony assault, but they are not the same thing by any reasonable moral standard.

I agree, but this wasn't the point I was making, as I said above.

Source? (edit: and who the hell brings their kids onto a military installation like the Death Star?  That is knowingly putting your child in harm's way and the fault of the parents in my book)

I'm sorry, but I didn't think I'd have to explain this to a Star Wars fan. The Death Star is a fully autonomous military station, with 1.7 million crewmembers, including their families. Considering the amount of time the crew would have to spend in service they were practically living there, hence the presense of children on board. If people who worked on the Death Star had kids, the kids would be living with them there, wouldn't they? I believe the Death Star was believed (falsely) to be invincible by the Imperials, so I don't see what makes it weird. After all, it was designed to be a fully independant station not only for battle, but for living as well. As for the source, I mean come on, really? You didn't know that? Fine, here's the link to the wookieepedia page about the Death Star - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DS-1_Orbital_Battle_Station. Before you say it, yes, there is no confirmation or direct quotes about children on board, but I view it as an incredibly obvious and simple assumption to make. However, I didn't bring it up as an example of an evil act committed by the Rebellion, I simply viewed it as an interesting fact, that more innocents actually died as a result of the "good guys winning".

Except for, you know, people the Empire killed over time for whatever reasons.  And the people who would die in the inevitable next wave of rebellions, and the wave after that.

As much as you like saying about me "purely speculting" on certain things, this is pure speculation on your part as well.

Yes, Thrawn and others believed the Empire would have stood a better chance.  Their belief does not make it fact - it remains speculation.  Thrawn also believed that the Rebellion had no chance against the Empire - the man was brilliant, but not infallible.

I brought up Thrawn merely as an example, not as the only person who could defeat the YV. My point was not what the Imperials believed in. The part in my comment that you ignored (or missed) was that the Yuuzhan Vong themselves feared the Empire much more than the New Republic. I can't remember in which book exactly, from the top of my head, because it was quite a while since I read them, but there were several conversations between Nom Anor and Shimrra Jamaane, as well as Tsavong Lah and/or Onimi about how fortunate they were that the Empire was defeated and no longer in power. I'll search for the exact quote, and I'll comment on it later if I do. But still, you surely know that Nom Anor spent pretty much all of his time prior to the invasion trying to weaken the Imperial Remnant, and not the New Republic? Doesn't it make it obvious in itself?

I don't.  Imperial officers consistently underestimated their enemies, which caused a significant number of their defeats.  The superweapon point is more of a joke than a serious argument, but I do think it helps expose a flaw in Imperial thinking regarding military doctrine. And their lack of flexibility doomed them.

They did underestimate every foe who were seemingly weaker than them. I was talking about the Yuuzhan Vong (it frustrates me a bit that I have to point out such an obvious point, but whatever). An Empire of such standing, such aggressive views on humanity, technology, and such advanced biological weaponry was never at risk of being underestimated. Hell, Palpatine himself knew about their existence way before the invasion, and there are even theories that amongst the reasons the Death Star was built was to have it as a means to stop them (although that indeed is what you call "pure speculation", so I won't dwell on it much further). And what I said about the tactics, was once againt about the YV. As you say, there was an apparent lack of flexibilty. However, the YV were EXACTLY what such a military machine was created for, a PERFECT enemy. All of the Star Destroyers, Battlecruisers, Star Dreadnoughts, Death Stars, Galaxy Guns, World Devastators, Suncrushers, etc. The Empire would have protected the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong, as simple as that. A speculation, yes, but with serious arguments going for it. Again, 365 TRILLION sentient being were killed by the Yuuzhan Vong. It's not all military personnel, is it? No, it's the civilian population of the galaxy, which the New Republic failed to protect. Somehow, I feel the Empire wouldn't end up failing quite as badly.

Thrawn was defeated by the New Republic - the Battle of Bilbringi was already going badly before he was killed.  Again, the man was brilliant, but not perfect, and how well or badly he would have done against the Vong is pure speculation because he got himself killed long before he could face them (and yes, getting killed by the member of your pet slave race that you made your bodyguard is 100% your fault).

As I said above, Thrawn was only an example, I don't view him as Empire's only hope of defeating the Vong. And no, it doesn't make it 100% your fault when you are not responsible for the polution of the home planet of your bodyguard which triggers him to kill you, especially if it's a New Republic representative urging him to do so.

[Illidan Stormrage]

Source? (edit: and who the hell brings their kids onto a military installation like the Death Star?  That is knowingly putting your child in harm's way and the fault of the parents in my book)

Pealloen in the Thrawn trilogy comments on this (I think it is the first chapter of Heir to The Empire)
He said something about children that join since they were poor manned on the executor. He said he watch the children on that ship collide with the death star.


Btw people failed to understand that the rebels recruited groups like Death Watch, Former Murders, smugglers, pirates, bounty hunters, terrorists, and most were exploiting the government

Also almost all governments have rebellions: The American Government, The British Empire, Soviet Union, Even modern America has people who want to rebel against the government based on decisions.

We cant compare the star was universe to our real world governments. We are one planet, and if you look at the star wars galaxy their are more planets with different cultures and most wont get alone
and in the star wars universe death watch rebels because they aren't their "warrior way" which is a example of a could government being rebel against.

[Lord Xizer]

A few things I would like to point out.
19 years of 'peace' if you ignore the subjugation and enslavement of entire worlds during that time period, the brutal crackdowns and military purges. Peace is more of a nominal thing as the Empire didn't call these actions 'wars' even though short as they were individually they collectively were constant during those 19 years.

Pellaeon's line about the Executor is more a reference to how many talented younger officers died on it due to the disproportionate transfers to the ship, as it was seen as a fast way to promotion.

[Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus]

A few things I would like to point out.
19 years of 'peace' if you ignore the subjugation and enslavement of entire worlds during that time period, the brutal crackdowns and military purges. Peace is more of a nominal thing as the Empire didn't call these actions 'wars' even though short as they were individually they collectively were constant during those 19 years.

True, I actually thought about it being my weakest argument. Although it does speak more about the Empire being an oppressive government, rather than the point I was making, as such actions are still different to full-blown, galactic-wide wars. It's a horrible deed to commit, no doubt. However, most of the galaxy was at peace at the time. And I still persist that the Empire was a more stable government, and their more fear-inducing military meant that other forces in (and outside of) the galaxy were significantly less eager to oppose them, contrary to the New Republic in later times.

[Pali]

Well, I had a much longer and more detailed post almost ready to go, but my iPad decided to eat it and I don't have the time tonight to rewrite it.  So rather than continue to get bogged down in minutia (and frustrate myself by retyping a bunch), I think we've gone in the wrong direction for this post and I'd like to try and put it back on track.  We've been discussing the Rebellion/NR and Empire from an historical perspective, analyzing mistakes and the like, but the original question of the thread is which would we prefer to live under - and I don't think we should be answering that with the benefit of hindsight, but as a person in the moment. 

So I say think of it this way: you are an Imperial citizen living on Coruscant when the Battle of Endor happens and you hear the Emperor and Vader are dead.  You know nothing for certain of what will come, you've never heard of the Vong, but you are pretty well informed on recent history and current events.  What is your reaction?

[Illidan Stormrage]

So I say think of it this way: you are an Imperial citizen living on Coruscant when the Battle of Endor happens and you hear the Emperor and Vader are dead.  You know nothing for certain of what will come, you've never heard of the Vong, but you are pretty well informed on recent history and current events.  What is your reaction?

I would freak out and help try to maintain control since I would know those rebels and their terrorist buddies would launch a full scale invasion killing millions. I might board a ship leaving becoming a smuggler or journeying to the PA's territory.
Is while I am a imperial I still don't fully trust the Empire so I bail out
I would join under Thrawn and when Thrawn Dies journey to Bastion hide out until Pealleon takes power.
Probably join the IR and Fel Empire

[Bucman55]

Well, I had a much longer and more detailed post almost ready to go, but my iPad decided to eat it and I don't have the time tonight to rewrite it.  So rather than continue to get bogged down in minutia (and frustrate myself by retyping a bunch), I think we've gone in the wrong direction for this post and I'd like to try and put it back on track.  We've been discussing the Rebellion/NR and Empire from an historical perspective, analyzing mistakes and the like, but the original question of the thread is which would we prefer to live under - and I don't think we should be answering that with the benefit of hindsight, but as a person in the moment. 

So I say think of it this way: you are an Imperial citizen living on Coruscant when the Battle of Endor happens and you hear the Emperor and Vader are dead.  You know nothing for certain of what will come, you've never heard of the Vong, but you are pretty well informed on recent history and current events.  What is your reaction?

I'd be one of those guys tearing down the statue of Palpatine. I may be human, but my Togrutan friend has been constantly put down by the Empire's oppressive policies and I'm glad things may finally start to change.

[Illidan Stormrage]

I'd be one of those guys tearing down the statue of Palpatine. I may be human, but my Togrutan friend has been constantly put down by the Empire's oppressive policies and I'm glad things may finally start to change.

no offense but along with the threat of being shot by imperial forces the rebel invasion of coursant would bring doom and ruin to many especially when the Lysanyka is extracted by that crazy bitch IceHeart

[Pali]

no offense but along with the threat of being shot by imperial forces the rebel invasion of coursant would bring doom and ruin to many especially when the Lysanyka is extracted by that crazy bitch IceHeart

You are looking with hindsight - I'm asking for a decision given available information in the moment.

[GreyStar]

Flock to the NR where I don't have to pray to a dead religion for the sake of a guy who killed trillions for lols. Or pretend to be racist. Or pretend I like slavery.

[rednax]

Unless we're in the lower levels of Coruscant we've probably been flooded with imperial propaganda. It's almost impossible to get an unbiased view.
So here's a really basic comparison
Empire: a strong mostly stable humanocentric government that's effectively governed by the military. Cool things like safer galaxy and ability to get high in the military if your good enough. Not cool things like slavery haveing a Sith as your emperor and a silly amount of oppression (like that planet from wraith squadron where the empire technologically regressed the entire planet to the medieval age and makes them crawl in the mud and beg for food, now that's one planet you don't want to serve the empire under) Will not stop until everyone is a cog in the great machine of the empire.
Republics: a less strong less stable, but not actually weak government, started by some people who didn't like the empire. Cool things like equality the and democracy also has Jedi sometimes. Not cool things like Borsk Feyla. And maybe other politics? Also do some very dumb things sometimes. (Mostly Borsks fault) Has a weaker military but is actively working on making the Galaxy a better place.

(This is assuming the empire under Palps or Isard or something.)
(Feel free to add other points, but don't be full of bias (looking at you admiralthrawn2))

[Pali]

I think it worth pointing out that Borsk Fey'lya, on the uncool scale, is no match for enslaving billions. He's also not someone anyone at the time of Endor would have yet heard of, so he doesn't fit within the bounds of my question.

[Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus]

Well, I had a much longer and more detailed post almost ready to go, but my iPad decided to eat it and I don't have the time tonight to rewrite it.  So rather than continue to get bogged down in minutia (and frustrate myself by retyping a bunch), I think we've gone in the wrong direction for this post and I'd like to try and put it back on track.  We've been discussing the Rebellion/NR and Empire from an historical perspective, analyzing mistakes and the like, but the original question of the thread is which would we prefer to live under - and I don't think we should be answering that with the benefit of hindsight, but as a person in the moment. 

So I say think of it this way: you are an Imperial citizen living on Coruscant when the Battle of Endor happens and you hear the Emperor and Vader are dead.  You know nothing for certain of what will come, you've never heard of the Vong, but you are pretty well informed on recent history and current events.  What is your reaction?

I feel for you, that's sad to hear, but it happens sometimes, unfortunately, I lost so many messages that way, too.

As for the point of this thread, I think I already answered it at the very start, by saying that I'm only speaking for myself and no one else, and that I wouldn't feel safe living under the New Republic, feeling that the Empire (at this moment of time the IR) is much better qualified/suited to rule the galaxy. I wouldn't have completely trusted the Remnant under Isard and the reborn Palpatine, however I'd maintain the pretence of my loyalty to them, because I still view the NR as a destabilizing element in the galaxy with unclear goals and motivations. I do think, though, that the IR flourished under Thrawn and much later Pellaeon, who abolished xenophobia and pretty much everything that people hated about the Empire. But to answer your question, if the choice was only between the Empire under Pestage (right after Endor) or the NR, I would still choose the former. So, I'd remain loyal to the Empire. But that's only what I would do, I'm not saying whether it's a right thing to do for everyone or not, and I understand and respect every other opinion and choice on the matter.

[Revanchist]

Which is really what most of the Galaxy did even if they didn't like the Empire. They were still waiting to see whether the NR would live up to its promises and thus the safe bet was the just hang back and watch.

[Illidan Stormrage]

[WarlordOfWildSpace]

It seems like a lot of us earthlings like the Empire more than the Rebellion, which seems likely, considering that we are also humanocentric (even more specific in some cases), and the Empire's military and political system can be accessed by humans of any social class and you can advance based on skill and loyalty (plus a lot of boot licking)

Meanwhile the Rebellion/NR is headed by mostly people with old families/noble house backgrounds, advancement is based largely on who you know (a number one complaint in the working world) and humans are not the dominant force.  For those with loftier ideals, this easy to ignore, but in most sci-fis, don't you root for the humans almost automatically?

[Pali]

For those with loftier ideals, this easy to ignore, but in most sci-fis, don't you root for the humans almost automatically?

Yes, but that's because humans are usually the main characters, and the main characters are usually the people you root for in a story.  Humans are the main characters to keep the audience engaged and empathetic with them, as its easier to put yourself in another human's shoes than in those of a creature with four legs and a tail (it's also easier to convincingly write internal perspectives of humans rather than try to invent alien thinking, which is why most aliens in most sci-fi or fantasy are essentially just humans-but-different-looking so that we can empathize with them as well).

If you're rooting for the humans when they are the oppressors and slavers just because they are human and the slaves aliens, then you are rooting for the wrong team.  It may be natural, but that doesn't make it right.

[Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus]

If you're rooting for the humans when they are the oppressors and slavers just because they are human and the slaves aliens, then you are rooting for the wrong team.  It may be natural, but that doesn't make it right.

That's a bit of an oversimplification, though, don't you think? Obviously not, since you said it, so it's a rhetorical question. It seems to me that you have been oversimplifying things throughout this entire thread, maybe to not be at risk of expressing controversial opinions, I don't know. I hope you realize that it's only your opinion that you are expressing, after all, similarly to how what I say is only mine. I can't imagine what empowers you to declare what is right and what is wrong for everyone. I'm sorry for my tone, but I don't think it's fair of you to say so. I certainly do not identify myself with the racial prejudices of the Empire, and it never was amongst my reasoning to "root" for them. And I can't imagine anyone, certainly on this thread and forum, advocating such practices. This would be a much more prudent discussion without so much bias, to be honest.