Thrawn's Revenge
Imperial Civil War [Empire at War] => Discussion, Suggestions & Feedback => Topic started by: ArcHeavyGunner on August 13, 2012, 05:42:54 PM
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Listen all, as a fan of infantry and the New Republic I though to myself "what could be good infantry units for the New republic?" and I figured it out, New republic SpecForce and ,for a hero, Renegade Squadron. Now listen Renegade squadron was around at the time, although briefly. In canon the could take down an AT-AT but thats OP so maybe they could be able to take down a squadron of AT-STs. And the NR SpecForce could replace infiltrators and could have different variations such as :SpecForce Infantry which upgrades regular infantry, NR SpecForce Vanguards which upgrade regular plex and NR SpecForce Gunners which counters E-Web troopers. I though they could have about 25% to 40% more health and do 35% to 45% more damage and still have take cover. That way they are the best Infantry the NR has but still aren't overpowered. Also, if possible, Renegade squadron could combine all three in to one, well, squadron. 3 infantry squads, 2 vanguard squads, and 1 gunner squad. I'm suprised nobody mentioned this before. Please let me know your thoughts on this. (I want Infantry that isn't cannon fodder)
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Why not the Katarn Commandos, or Lt. Page's Commandos? Because...
With Hand and Chewie, Lando and Karrde, Luke, Kyle, and buildable Jedi they have a lot of Infantry ground power as is.
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Well A) I'm very iffy on this era in star wars history and I'm taking about ranged units, not jedi and I am really cautious with my heros like most people I would think.
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Well A) I'm very iffy on this era in star wars history and I'm taking about ranged units, not jedi and I am really cautious with my heros like most people I would think.
Ah, but why have heroes if they are never used. No great battle has been won without great risk.
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all I was suggesting were some infantry units that are not canon fodder although I do agree with you, I just have bad luck and they would probably die because all infantry units are canon fodder right now. But do you like my suggestion, because that's all that matters to me. I just want to know if there are other like minded people out there in this community.
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Personally I dont think "new" infantry units should be added... I think infantry units should simply be made more useful... like giving them grenades or something... the strangest idea just popped into my head, could one unit per squadron say have a grenade launcher to say simulate throwing grenades? or maybe let them garrison more stuff like towers andd walls? and you could give them better abilities too... just throwin around ideas here :P
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Well my only thing is that infantry Especially the NRs are pretty tough already. They aren't cannon fodder, unless your tactics dictate that they be. Infantry when used in conjunction with artillery(as guards) or with heavier units like the Tanks are great at covering the tanks from lesser threats(just like in real life) If you're losing tons of infantry it's probably due to not supporting them, if you send inf against a platoon of ATSTs the results will be bad, because most vehicles have range on inf or are designed specifically to kill inf. Infantry can also be very useful when combined with fast transport like the NR's air transport that can hold as much as the Juggernaut on the IRs can deposit troops anywhere on the map. This is the best way to win the Carida map actually if you are the NR, use infantry to get behind the defenses, start building your own turrets and commandeer the abandoned Turbo towers. You can only do this WITH infantry. Attack a fully defended Carida with Vehicles? You're going to suffer more casualties than the Russians in Kursk.
Also the NR HAS long range infantry that are NIGHTMARES to the Imps, have you played as the IR and attacked a planet Full of Infiltrators? It's hell! They pick off infantry at long range, they use thermal detonators to devastate groups of armor and are very fast to boot. If you are actually using them you can make them even more effective.
Also there are Plex(or Rocket troopers) already which would be more powerful than grenades anyway.
I can see the appeal of commando units like you suggest and I'm not bashing that at all, but I think the infantry are sound and balanced at the moment. When you add in the numerous NR ground heroes too then that almost tips them to OP. The solution is not always new units but tailoring your tactics to the units there and I can assure you infantry can be very deadly if used properly, Plex and Infiltrators against ATATs, standard Inf backed by heroes against AA, Artillery, and as fast deployment via air or ground transport.
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Wow, you just made a REALLY good point there...um, I don't know how to respond to that.*Thinking very intensely* Alright, I have an Idea. Maybe in the later eras(3 and so on) the any ranged infantry for any faction could be upgraded to become commandos ie: while you still have they old infantry, you can now only build commandos. I was thinking kinda along the lines of what happens to the Nebulon-B and the Corona. That way it shows the commander realizing that with all the new ground technology, and the eventual introduction to troop transports, he should give his infantry better armor, weapons, and training. BTW the Gunner idea could be used by the Eoth and NR to have something similar to E-Web troopers because that's not fair that only the IR gets them( and I very much dislike the IR.) See now were both happy. Also maybe the Infiltrators could come with just a small squad of regular infantry that, while they can keep up, they are still regular infantry even when the commandos come around. Now what do you think, no new units just upgraded ones.
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Well my only thing is that infantry Especially the NRs are pretty tough already. They aren't cannon fodder, unless your tactics dictate that they be. Infantry when used in conjunction with artillery(as guards) or with heavier units like the Tanks are great at covering the tanks from lesser threats(just like in real life) If you're losing tons of infantry it's probably due to not supporting them, if you send inf against a platoon of ATSTs the results will be bad, because most vehicles have range on inf or are designed specifically to kill inf. Infantry can also be very useful when combined with fast transport like the NR's air transport that can hold as much as the Juggernaut on the IRs can deposit troops anywhere on the map. This is the best way to win the Carida map actually if you are the NR, use infantry to get behind the defenses, start building your own turrets and commandeer the abandoned Turbo towers. You can only do this WITH infantry. Attack a fully defended Carida with Vehicles? You're going to suffer more casualties than the Russians in Kursk.
Also the NR HAS long range infantry that are NIGHTMARES to the Imps, have you played as the IR and attacked a planet Full of Infiltrators? It's hell! They pick off infantry at long range, they use thermal detonators to devastate groups of armor and are very fast to boot. If you are actually using them you can make them even more effective.
Also there are Plex(or Rocket troopers) already which would be more powerful than grenades anyway.
I can see the appeal of commando units like you suggest and I'm not bashing that at all, but I think the infantry are sound and balanced at the moment. When you add in the numerous NR ground heroes too then that almost tips them to OP. The solution is not always new units but tailoring your tactics to the units there and I can assure you infantry can be very deadly if used properly, Plex and Infiltrators against ATATs, standard Inf backed by heroes against AA, Artillery, and as fast deployment via air or ground transport.
I thoroughly disagree, infantry with artillery is probably the worst idea ive heard :P hence splash damage, the fact is why would you support tanks with infantry when you could support them with more tanks or say artillery, its not like ground units are exspensive, I say they arnt useful enough, don't make new units make the units more usable, make them more unique, make them more able to do things and perhaps they would be more interesting, its not that they are under powered it just they cant do more things than better units like they can in real life
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Wow, you just made a REALLY good point there...um, I don't know how to respond to that.*Thinking very intensely* Alright, I have an Idea. Maybe in the later eras(3 and so on) the any ranged infantry for any faction could be upgraded to become commandos ie: while you still have they old infantry, you can now only build commandos. I was thinking kinda along the lines of what happens to the Nebulon-B and the Corona. That way it shows the commander realizing that with all the new ground technology, and the eventual introduction to troop transports, he should give his infantry better armor, weapons, and training. BTW the Gunner idea could be used by the Eoth and NR to have something similar to E-Web troopers because that's not fair that only the IR gets them( and I very much dislike the IR.) See now were both happy. Also maybe the Infiltrators could come with just a small squad of regular infantry that, while they can keep up, they are still regular infantry even when the commandos come around. Now what do you think, no new units just upgraded ones.
Actually if we go by canon the New Republic disbanded it's Army after Operation Shadow Hand(seeing as how the Empire tore it apart badly) and just used local planetary defense forces for ground work while focusing on the Defense Fleet. They figured a strong and versatile fleet would compensate for lacking in ground forces. So the argument of making them better would actually go against this fact as individual sectors might or might not have state of the art weaponry. So the NRs ground forces should actually get weaker not stronger after era three.(Not that I'm saying they should in the game sine that would throw balance all out of whack)The NR troopers in the game have the same health equiv as their IR counterparts.
I DO agree that the NR, EotH and maybe even the PA could use an E Web troop like the IRs. I guess upgrading the Infiltrators to more than two per unit would make them more commando like and threatening. I don't know if adding regular troopers to them would do that though perhaps if there were 4 or 5 Infiltrators(like most spec ops teams have 5 to 8 members) instead.
I thoroughly disagree, infantry with artillery is probably the worst idea ive heard :P hence splash damage, the fact is why would you support tanks with infantry when you could support them with more tanks or say artillery, its not like ground units are exspensive, I say they arnt useful enough, don't make new units make the units more usable, make them more unique, make them more able to do things and perhaps they would be more interesting, its not that they are under powered it just they cant do more things than better units like they can in real life
Not to attack Artillery if it can be helped. They ARE good at killing the Artillery units IF they get close enough mind you, but you need to get them to their targets fast via a transport)What I meant was using them to help guard YOUR Artillery. Infantry are slower and tend to keep up with Artillery very well, using them as guards frees up the tanks you mentioned to continue the assault. I use them as a perimeter with(If I can spare them) a few light vehicles that provide artillery fire for my heavy assaults. The infantry mop up anything left by the bombardment and subsequent storm assault(ATATs followed by ATSTs since I'm Imperial) then the infantry come up and consolidate the ground taken(I.E. Turret construction, capture, bunkers) and deal with any leftover resistance(Enemy infantry that survived or came late to the party.)
You want them to be able to do more things? Like what? They already are the only way to capture LZs, Bunkers, turrets etc. They can be very useful taking down Turbo towers. They are good at getting around heavier units, they make great cheap defenders and can go many areas the vehicles can't(I.E. the back way into Carida's base)
There are limits to what they can do because of the base game's limits too.
As for unique each faction does have unique units(balanced but unique) IR has Nova Troopers, NR has Infiltrators, PA has Storm Commandos and EotH has Chiss commandos. Each have a specific ability or boost that the others don't.(Except the Chiss and Infiltrators are similar) for regular infantry, Stormies, Naval troopers, Raptors, Phalanx troopers and NR trooper seem pretty diverse to me(then there's the Yevethans and occasional pirates)
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Since I'm new here and don''t know how to quote here's Lord Xizer's quote
Actually if we go by canon the New Republic disbanded it's Army after Operation Shadow Hand(seeing as how the Empire tore it apart badly) and just used local planetary defense forces for ground work while focusing on the Defense Fleet. They figured a strong and versatile fleet would compensate for lacking in ground forces. So the argument of making them better would actually go against this fact as individual sectors might or might not have state of the art weaponry. So the NRs ground forces should actually get weaker not stronger after era three.
Well I'm very iffy on the canon after the events of Jedi since I can't get a hold of the books, but to add to my idea lets just give the Infils a squad of similarly powered members that are weaker but have full automatic blasters so they can deal with infantry up close. So that is the New and Improved idea! Thank you all for your input.
There are multiple ways to quote. The first is a button that says "quote" and shows up at the top right side of every post on the forums. The second is a button that says "Insert Quote" when you're looking at the topic summary while writing your post, the third is the little quotation bubble button in the icon sets while you're writing yout post just above the emoticons, and the fourth is writing [quote ]Quoted message here [/ quote] without the spaces around the text you want. -Corey
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not a bad idea I suppose
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Since I'm new here and don''t know how to quote here's Lord Xizer's quote
Well I'm very iffy on the canon after the events of Jedi since I can't get a hold of the books, but to add to my idea lets just give the Infils a squad of similarly powered members that are weaker but have full automatic blasters so they can deal with infantry up close. So that is the New and Improved idea! Thank you all for your input.
There are multiple ways to quote. The first is a button that says "quote" and shows up at the top right side of every post on the forums. The second is a button that says "Insert Quote" when you're looking at the topic summary while writing your post, the third is the little quotation bubble button in the icon sets while you're writing yout post just above the emoticons, and the fourth is writing [quote ]Quoted message here [/ quote] without the spaces around the text you want. -Corey
Well I feel embarrassed, um, I'm not very observant as you can tell.
I did it wrong again but I figured it out at least, and thanks for explaining it to me Corey.
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Not to attack Artillery if it can be helped. They ARE good at killing the Artillery units IF they get close enough mind you, but you need to get them to their targets fast via a transport)What I meant was using them to help guard YOUR Artillery. Infantry are slower and tend to keep up with Artillery very well, using them as guards frees up the tanks you mentioned to continue the assault. I use them as a perimeter with(If I can spare them) a few light vehicles that provide artillery fire for my heavy assaults. The infantry mop up anything left by the bombardment and subsequent storm assault(ATATs followed by ATSTs since I'm Imperial) then the infantry come up and consolidate the ground taken(I.E. Turret construction, capture, bunkers) and deal with any leftover resistance(Enemy infantry that survived or came late to the party.)
You want them to be able to do more things? Like what? They already are the only way to capture LZs, Bunkers, turrets etc. They can be very useful taking down Turbo towers. They are good at getting around heavier units, they make great cheap defenders and can go many areas the vehicles can't(I.E. the back way into Carida's base)
There are limits to what they can do because of the base game's limits too.
As for unique each faction does have unique units(balanced but unique) IR has Nova Troopers, NR has Infiltrators, PA has Storm Commandos and EotH has Chiss commandos. Each have a specific ability or boost that the others don't.(Except the Chiss and Infiltrators are similar) for regular infantry, Stormies, Naval troopers, Raptors, Phalanx troopers and NR trooper seem pretty diverse to me(then there's the Yevethans and occasional pirates)
I mean that infantry despite already being the only way to capture LZs, Bunkers, turrets etc. that they really arnt needed, especially since in TR you can drop 10 units in right off the bat. Things that could make them more useful/ interesting is giving squadrons a man that say has a grenade launcher to represent the troops throwing grenades and let infantry garrison things like walls, towers if this is even possible. and I say grenade launchers because storm troopers or rebel infantry wouldn't exactly carry around high level explosives like commandos.
however the more I argue for these things the more I realize how pointless it is :P
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I mean that infantry despite already being the only way to capture LZs, Bunkers, turrets etc. that they really arnt needed, especially since in TR you can drop 10 units in right off the bat. Things that could make them more useful/ interesting is giving squadrons a man that say has a grenade launcher to represent the troops throwing grenades and let infantry garrison things like walls, towers if this is even possible. and I say grenade launchers because storm troopers or rebel infantry wouldn't exactly carry around high level explosives like commandos.
however the more I argue for these things the more I realize how pointless it is :P
LZs are tactical again.
Not entirely. I have actually made the argument myself for infantry on walls and in Towers but I think it was shot down because of game mechanics about a year ago.
I suppose if there was a mortor unit for infantry(say since the IR has E Web, the NR could have a mortar inf unit and the Hand could have guys with flamethrowers, but they'd have to set up and be stationary as well as come in small companies)
And suggestions aren't always pointless(there were countless times I was told the PA would never be playable due to lack of interest, the Deep core Warlords, Harrsk, Delvardus and Teradoc were too minor to put in and I also suggested Crimson Command VSDIIs so it's possible)
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I cant believe that this many people have similar ideas yet when I used the search function NONE came up. Interesting and thank you for they continued support.
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Also many of the maps that have been redone have more areas that aren't accessible to mechs.
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Yes, thus again increasing the value of infantry units in a tactical manner.
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I still think that A) Every faction should get an E-Web equivalent and B) the Infiltrators should get a squad of slightly weaker Commandos that are armed with fully automatic blasters. Does anyone agree with me or is my point completely ridiculous and stupid?
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I agree each should get some sort of E Web equiv
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But should the Infiltrators get some squad mates so they are not lonely?
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I still think that A) Every faction should get an E-Web equivalent and B) the Infiltrators should get a squad of slightly weaker Commandos that are armed with fully automatic blasters. Does anyone agree with me or is my point completely ridiculous and stupid?
I'm going to have to disagree. The IR's army diversity is nice and makes sense, since they had ridiculous resources before the NR rose. The IR's army philosophy is Shock and Awe, hence the AT-ATs and pure overwhelming firepower. This makes them slow, and a force you have to keep cohesive, which makes sense. The IR is also, incidentally probably the best forces when deployed on defense, and this is enhanced by the E-webs. The IR has no infiltrator or commando in the game, and this is great. Although the Noghri are fantasticc...if a bit OP.
The NR is your typical hit and run type of army (see T2-Bs with good speed and regenerating shields), and strategic precision (Infiltrators). You're not meant to play the two armies in the same way. For instance, deploying two companies of T4-Bs and two companies of NR troopers against, say, an AT-AT, an AT-ST company, and two companies of stormtroopers might seem like sort of a fair fight, but it's not. Instead you should probably consider swapping out one company of T4-Bs for T2-Bs that you can run around the AT-AT and use to flank the IR forces.
Giving every side the same sort of forces or equivalents would make this one horrendously boring game. And why should Infiltrators be changed? If you want a squad of troops with automatic weapons, just deploy a damn company of troopers.
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Well I meant an equivalent. Not necessarily give them ALL E Webs, but something like mine layers for the NR, sappers for the PA, Mobile build pads for the EotH
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I'm going to have to disagree. The IR's army diversity is nice and makes sense, since they had ridiculous resources before the NR rose. The IR's army philosophy is Shock and Awe, hence the AT-ATs and pure overwhelming firepower. This makes them slow, and a force you have to keep cohesive, which makes sense. The IR is also, incidentally probably the best forces when deployed on defense, and this is enhanced by the E-webs. The IR has no infiltrator or commando in the game, and this is great. Although the Noghri are fantasticc...if a bit OP.
The NR is your typical hit and run type of army (see T2-Bs with good speed and regenerating shields), and strategic precision (Infiltrators). You're not meant to play the two armies in the same way. For instance, deploying two companies of T4-Bs and two companies of NR troopers against, say, an AT-AT, an AT-ST company, and two companies of stormtroopers might seem like sort of a fair fight, but it's not. Instead you should probably consider swapping out one company of T4-Bs for T2-Bs that you can run around the AT-AT and use to flank the IR forces.
Giving every side the same sort of forces or equivalents would make this one horrendously boring game. And why should Infiltrators be changed? If you want a squad of troops with automatic weapons, just deploy a damn company of troopers.
You make a very good point and like Lord Xizer said the should get and equivalent, not all E-Webs, I think I just worded my comment wrong that's all. I also just think that two Infiltrators per company is a little weak. Maybe the addition of two to three more would make them MUCH more effective because right now If your commanding, lets say, your T4-Bs and you have already ordered your infiltrators to flank they could run into ONE anti-infantry turret and get almost completely wiped out. Having two to three more per company would give them better odds and if you wanted eight infiltrators with four per company there is no need to waste unit space by landing four infiltrator units instead of two. and if I wanted to land some infantry I would but I would be knowing all to well that they will be instantly killed if I ask 5 squads of Infantry and 3 squads of Plex troopers to take out an AT-ST or 2 that happen to be flanking. The whole idea around the original post was due to the Absolute Corruption Mod. If you've played it, would would know that on certain planets you can build Alliance SpecForce that are better infantry because ALL the infantry in that mod are cannon fodder. I just thought that it would be nice if every faction got some sort of squad of commandos not just the Imperials. And in my opinion, no, two little snipers who know how to use grenades don't count as commandos even if they have learned to sprint unlike a;most every other infantry unit. That was my though and I still think it is a good one.
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IMO, the NR is already OP with infantry. Jedi, inflitrators, and they have tons of ground heroes. Getting something long-ranged will make IR lose out, and make the EoTH commandos look weaker, when they are supposed to be the ace infantry(and no, they are not to be countered do easily. NR lack the brains to do so, not to mention that EoTH is not much of a threat as long as it stays in its Unknown reigons)
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Personally i do think the infantry are already diverse from the others as is, The Chiss have rocket Bikes, empire has e-webs and the NR has Jedi. and well for the commandos adding units too their squads would make them tougher... I.E harder to kill, that could unbalance some things.. and possibly make them OP, as commandos are kinda ment to be powerful but fragile units are they not?
As for infantry being able to garrison walls and towers, Its seems very able to fit into the game mechanics... towers already look like bunkers so simply make the tower into a bunker, just elevated, and for walls you could possibly do about the same or something very similar, also grenade launchers in squads would be nice to simply show how infantry arnt entirely useless against any vehicle like they are in real life?
Im also kinda surprised Corey or someone hasn't anything to say on the topic yet....
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IMO, the NR is already OP with infantry. Jedi, infiltrators, and they have tons of ground heroes. Getting something long-ranged will make IR lose out, and make the EoTH commandos look weaker, when they are supposed to be the ace infantry(and no, they are not to be countered do easily. NR lack the brains to do so, not to mention that EoTH is not much of a threat as long as it stays in its Unknown regions)
While you make a good point I have two problems with that. 1)I mean who really uses heroes all that much anyway as we are all afraid of the being killed. 2) Like I said in a much earlier post I was taking about a long range equivalent to jedi. And besides aren't jedi only available in era 5
Personally i do think the infantry are already diverse from the others as is, The Chiss have rocket Bikes, empire has e-webs and the NR has Jedi. and well for the commandos adding units too their squads would make them tougher... I.E harder to kill, that could unbalance some things.. and possibly make them OP, as commandos are kinda meant to be powerful but fragile units are they not?
In an earlier post I mentioned ALL of the factions(well the playable ones anyway) getting an upgrade to Infantry past Era 3 to make the commandos, and well that isn't A) canon for the New Republic as their ground force was decimated and B) probably wouldn't happen in any life just replacing your standard infantry with commandos, I still think it should happen because it would show the commanders (you and me) realizing that with all these new tanks and what not, standard infantry isn't cutting it. So now we have a reason for the commandos units. On top of it, when I was ground battling the IR, they called in a bunch (like 9 or 10) minor ground heroes who were just very powerful stormies. So, I ask, why can only the imperials only have the ability to call in what appeared to be commandos. Every faction should be able to so the IR isn't IMO more overpowered, since they have some, if not the best, Army and almost certainly the best Navy. And yes, squads of infantry should have grenade launchers just like how there were some in the vanilla game.
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Im also kinda surprised Corey or someone hasn't anything to say on the topic yet....
I've been reading. I do have stuff to say, just haven't said it yet.
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And besides aren't jedi only available in era 5
Eras 4 and 5. The Yavin Praxeum was established shortly before Daala emerged from the Maw.
In an earlier post I mentioned ALL of the factions(well the playable ones anyway) getting an upgrade to Infantry past Era 3 to make the commandos ... I still think it should happen because it would show the commanders (you and me) realizing that with all these new tanks and what not, standard infantry isn't cutting it. So now we have a reason for the commandos units.
I'm not entirely convinced of the logic behind this. Since we have an era-based system there isn't really any difference between the tanks available in Era 1 and those available in Era 5. Sure there are a few changes in line up, but it isn't like vanilla where you suddenly ended up fighting against AT-AT's after ages with just AT-ST's. Commando units should provide a slightly different advantage to regular infantry, not serve as a more powerful replacement.
On top of it, when I was ground battling the IR, they called in a bunch (like 9 or 10) minor ground heroes who were just very powerful stormies. So, I ask, why can only the imperials only have the ability to call in what appeared to be commandos.
I assume you're actually talking about the Empire of the Hand here, with their Hand of Judgement and Aurek Seven squads. These are actually major hero units, not purchasable commando minor heroes.
As for infantry being able to garrison walls and towers, Its seems very able to fit into the game mechanics... towers already look like bunkers so simply make the tower into a bunker, just elevated, and for walls you could possibly do about the same or something very similar
I've always liked the idea of garrisoning the turbolaser towers, particularly the capturable ones (so the infantry you leave behind don't just stand around outside and maybe accidentally get sent elsewhere and lose you the turret).
Im also kinda surprised Corey or someone hasn't anything to say on the topic yet....
We don't want to spoil your fun debating this sort of thing. ;)
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I assume you're actually talking about the Empire of the Hand here, with their Hand of Judgement and Aurek Seven squads. These are actually major hero units, not purchasable commando minor heroes.
No I'm almost positive it was the empire as it was at the beginning of Art of War on Yavin and there are no EotH planets even remotely close to that.
I'm not entirely convinced of the logic behind this. Since we have an era-based system there isn't really any difference between the tanks available in Era 1 and those available in Era 5. Sure there are a few changes in line up, but it isn't like vanilla where you suddenly ended up fighting against AT-AT's after ages with just AT-ST's. Commando units should provide a slightly different advantage to regular infantry, not serve as a more powerful replacement.
My logic is very good IMO. I was thinking of how after Era 3 or 4 the Nebulon-B in replaced with the Corona. And while it doesn't have to be commandos it could be up armored infantry suggesting that the factions are replacing older weapons and armor with new and improved variants. I don't actually remember why I said replace the with commandos. But I still think Infiltrators should get so squad mates and every faction should have an equivalent to the E-Web, not just them all getting E-Webs. Some suggested mortar teams and flamethrowers but I was think more along the lines of light repeaters, mortars or flamethrowers depending on faction. Maybe a light repeater team for the NR, a mortar team for the Penstar, and since the EotH loves fire they can have the flamethrowers. My opinion will not change about this or the Infiltrators getting buddies until a very good point comes up. Although I never thought this thread would get this much attention and since there is so much attention, I'm surprised no one suggested this before me.
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My logic is very good IMO. I was thinking of how after Era 3 or 4 the Nebulon-B in replaced with the Corona. And while it doesn't have to be commandos it could be up armored infantry suggesting that the factions are replacing older weapons and armor with new and improved variants.
The difference is that the team has a canonical reason to replace the Nebulon series with the Corona, that was part of the NR becoming a REAL governing body and realizing it needed modern ships of the line.
What you're talking about, upgrading the role of basic infantry, doesn't make sense for several reasons. In terms of military doctrine, modern infantry today, serves pretty much the SAME purpose it did in WWI. They hold ground, protect the flanks of armor on the front lines, and are used for flanking maneuvers on a battlefield. Progression across eras shouldn't change the role of basic infantry.
Asking for upgrades is another matter, you're talking about overall upgrades to infantry with better armor and weaponry. Well then I'd ask why doesn't the military also upgrade its tanks, walkers, and all other land units to ALSO have better armor and infantry to balance this?
I'm not opposed to getting some better infantry for the NR, I've stated elsewhere that their land forces are the least interesting. But I also very much agree that Jedi is a nice equalizer (yes later eras only, so what? The factions aren't supposed to be perfectly balanced in each era), and the key is the NR's heroes. I don't know why you're not using your heroes more, that's one of the NR's KEY advantages in this mod.
As to your point about infiltrators, why do you want them to get extra members? Deploying a commando unit is supposed to be a tactical choice, sacrificing front line power for a unique tactical precision unit. That's why there's a unit deployment limit, to force you to make tougher choices. Giving you more fighting power per pop doesn't enhance gameplay, what it really does is devalue the player's choices.
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As to your point about infiltrators, why do you want them to get extra members? Deploying a commando unit is supposed to be a tactical choice, sacrificing front line power for a unique tactical precision unit. That's why there's a unit deployment limit, to force you to make tougher choices. Giving you more fighting power per pop doesn't enhance gameplay, what it really does it devalue the player's choices.
On the other hand with all infantry units being considerably weaker than vanilla (i think this applies to the infiltrator/commando types too), and the standard infantry squads having being made considerably larger than in vanilla, it is possibly a reasonable suggestion that the infiltrator/commando squads should also have a similar increase in number. Especially since, as Xizer pointed out, a standard commando squad would normally contain between five and eight members.
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On the other hand with all infantry units being considerably weaker than vanilla (i think this applies to the infiltrator/commando types too), and the standard infantry squads having being made considerably larger than in vanilla, it is possibly a reasonable suggestion that the infiltrator/commando squads should also have a similar increase in number. Especially since, as Xizer pointed out, a standard commando squad would normally contain between five and eight members.
Then buff the health of each infiltrator, giving you more of them doesn't enhance the value of each one. Having five separate infiltrators, in a single company, for me to use to run around the map separately means you don't have to be careful enough with each one. This devalues the unit, makes you take less care when using an elite asset. Also, I really don't want to face 50 infiltrators defending an NR planet. I really really don't...
Also I don't think he's talking about adding extra infiltrators, but rather giving them like...accompanying regular squads of troopers or something else.
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I'm working on a post to respond to the thread as a whole, but just a quick sidenote on the Era 3 infantry upgrade you're suggesting:
If your reasoning for wanting us to implement that change is you feel infantry on the whole are generally useless, why would you do it via an era change thing? Like Slornie said, the era system is not a traditional tech system, and as such those changes and upgrades would not have a single effect on around half of the mod, maybe more. Especially when you're then rationalizing it as a revolution in infantry combat which never happened, and as Xizer said goes explicitly against the canon. If your basic premise for needing these changes is true, and let's grant for the sake of argument that it is, then I would think the solution should be implemented into the whole mod, not just into half of the mod in a way that not only leaves what you perceive to be the problem in any GC that takes place in era 1 or 2, but also at worst contradicts canon and at best creates an unnecessary event in SW history and also adds a massive amount of work to the mod?
I don't think the analogy with the Corona and Nebulon-B situation works here. In that situation, the in-universe Nebulon-B was replaced with the Corona by the New Republic, so we did the same in the proper place in the timeline in the mod. What you're suggesting here would be more like if the Nebulon-B used to be in the whole mod with no alternative canon ships, and then we decided the ship was malfunctioning or not doing its job and instead of addressing that, left the ship in half the mod, and then invented our own ship to replace it then tried to make an in-universe justification for it rather than fixing the root issue.
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Wow...I' overwhelmed with all the good points people have made. It's a good thing that you guys all have good ideas and I like that about this community. Thank you all for your feedback as I can now tell my original idea was quite foolish of me, but as the ideas progressed we have made them better as a whole. But I think we should all agree on at least one or two things. 1) Every faction should have an E-Web equivalent. I have NOT read single reason, game play wise or canon wise as to why ONLY the Empire gets some form of defensive infantry. If you can give me a good reason I sure will appreciate it. 2)The original idea for commando units was foolish idea but a good one. I always forget this mod doesn't use tech systems but Eras instead, and, its in a area of Star Wars history that I'm iffy on so I'm sorry for the canon issues with my posts.
Personally I think infantry should be buffed so that on AT-ST can wipe out an entire company, which we know from the movies and the books is rare If Ewoks can take out several AT-STs shouldn't infantry be able to. The answer in no, and I know why. Balance is the answer , and I understand that, that is why I wanted units to represent the New Republic SpecForce and the other factions equivalent so we can get that idea that not all infantry is hopeless. I'm also pretty sure that, even if the NR Army was decimated, they tried to keep a special forces unit going for special missions. Also, if there was better body armor and Blasters would the Super powers invest in them, similar to how, at the birth of assault rifles, all the super powers dropped their bolt action rifle and picked up assault rifles? So I think the Nebulon to Corona analogy works fine for the reason I just mentioned. I know the Galactic Republic did this for the Clone troopers going from Phase 1 to Phase 2 armor. I know something similar happened in the universe at the time, all we have to do is find it. All I want is infantry that, in all truthfulness, doesn't suck like the Stormtroopers on Endor. And nobody, no matter what faction your on, EotH or Penstar, NR or IR, wants that. As a whole, I think we all want at least have decent infantry that can hold its own hand in a fight. But thank you for all your support and changes of the idea. Oh yeah, tat grenade launcher thing, could that be done?
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But thank you for all your support and changes of the idea. Oh yeah, tat grenade launcher thing, could that be done?
And the garrisoning walls and towers just to make a little more things that infantry can do than no one else can :D
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And the garrisoning walls and towers just to make a little more things that infantry can do than no one else can :D
This would be most enjoyable, also if walls could offer SOME protection instead of missiles and Turbos most of the time firing through them.
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While you make a good point I have two problems with that. 1)I mean who really uses heroes all that much anyway as we are all afraid of the being killed. 2) Like I said in a much earlier post I was taking about a long range equivalent to jedi. And besides aren't jedi only available in era 5
In an earlier post I mentioned ALL of the factions(well the playable ones anyway) getting an upgrade to Infantry past Era 3 to make the commandos, and well that isn't A) canon for the New Republic as their ground force was decimated and B) probably wouldn't happen in any life just replacing your standard infantry with commandos, I still think it should happen because it would show the commanders (you and me) realizing that with all these new tanks and what not, standard infantry isn't cutting it. So now we have a reason for the commandos units. On top of it, when I was ground battling the IR, they called in a bunch (like 9 or 10) minor ground heroes who were just very powerful stormies. So, I ask, why can only the imperials only have the ability to call in what appeared to be commandos. Every faction should be able to so the IR isn't IMO more overpowered, since they have some, if not the best, Army and almost certainly the best Navy. And yes, squads of infantry should have grenade launchers just like how there were some in the vanilla game.
I dsiagree, I use my ground heroes all the time, the fact is that I don't mind losing Kyle, Clighal, Lando, and even luke. The only ones I'm afraid of losing is Han and Chewie, thanks to the fact that they can go to warlord planets and thrash the ground forces while waiting for my larger space fleet to arrive. Imperials have a vehicle emphasis, much like the old republic(see any massive AT-AT like thing that the New Republics have? No, New Republic started as Rebel alliance, whose greatest resource was manpower, not building materials) No, 1st, 'grenades' doesn't exist in Star Wars except for FOC, which goes to show how impratical it was(A pirate faction owns a third of the galaxy and goes around spreading corruption in a control-by-fear empire, yeah, like to see that happen in real life). IF Grenadiers did exist, normal infantry would long have been phased out. And commando units for the IR? As heroes, please, IR has too much machines, it barely needs the infantry.(Let's not forget that IR has the tendacy to flatten infantry)
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The NRs ground heroes can be a devastating force in any invasion.
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The NRs ground heroes can be a devastating force in any invasion.
Towers and walls would be amazing, like in Command and Conquer.
I also agree mate, solo and chewie are devastating against infantry and up to two squads of light vehicles.
Luke is also brilliant at taking out Noghri warriors and scouts. (Using the invisibility as cover, then throwing his lightsaber).
Overall, standard infantry are quite effective.... they are cheap... and easy to recruit.. and can provide valuable diversions.. or support :)
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No, 1st, 'grenades' doesn't exist in Star Wars except for FOC, which goes to show how impratical it was(A pirate faction owns a third of the galaxy and goes around spreading corruption in a control-by-fear empire, yeah, like to see that happen in real life). IF Grenadiers did exist, normal infantry would long have been phased out.
I saw this and I just... grenades do exist in the star wars universe, heard of thermal detonators? im sure there are other kinds of grenades but infantry like storm troopers defiantly had grenades. I am just choosing to represent those grenades with a grenade launcher because the thermal detonator ability in this game in more like a mini nuke and its kinda hard to use, infantry had explosives but not the kind the commandos and saboteurs likely had, they'd be too expensive
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Yeah grenades actually feature VERY prominently in SW. A mortar or Grenade unit would be a feasibly addition, a cheaper and more mobile alternative to heavy artillery.
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No, New Republic started as Rebel alliance, whose greatest resource was manpower, not building materials
And didn't the Rebel Alliance and then the New Republic have a very good and prominent Specials forces unit called SpecForce. They did and it saddens me that sucha major assest(Raids on Endor and taking over Couresant) is not represented in this mod. That's the whole idea behind these posts.
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And didn't the Rebel Alliance and then the New Republic have a very good and prominent Specials forces unit called SpecForce. They did and it saddens me that sucha major assest(Raids on Endor and taking over Couresant) is not represented in this mod. That's the whole idea behind these posts.
SpecForce IS represented in the mod. The New Republic Infiltrators ARE SpecForce (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Infiltrators). And yes, I know that the linked article says the Infiltrators were disbanded after Endor, but it is reasonable to assume that a similar unit also existed under the NR.
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I just realized, the IR is getting Nova COMMANDOS. COMMANDOS. Why does the IR get all the cool stuff. Spread the love and give all the factions commandos, please with ice cream on top.
SpecForce IS represented in the mod. The New Republic Infiltrators ARE SpecForce (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Infiltrators). And yes, I know that the linked article says the Infiltrators were disbanded after Endor, but it is reasonable to assume that a similar unit also existed under the NR.
I meant to represent the Marines, Pathfinders, Rangers, Gunners, and Urban Combat Specialist too! Besides, anyone can pick up a sniper rifle, some thermaldetonatros, and move inhumanly fast. =P ( I still don't consider the Infiltrators commandos, only snipers)
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Novatroopers aren't exactly commandos. They're just elite Stormtroopers in different coloured armour used as an honour guard.
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Novatroopers aren't exactly commandos. They're just elite Stormtroopers in different coloured armour used as an honour guard.
They are basically like Zsinj's Raptor Troopers, slightly better than average infantry with some advantages. Not full fledged commandos
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They are basically like Zsinj's Raptor Troopers, slightly better than average infantry with some advantages. Not full fledged commandos
This is what I want except for the New Republic! Why can't we have it! =( There is probably a good reason, maybe, no, there is no reason that I know of why we cant have an equivalent.
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This is what I want except for the New Republic! Why can't we have it! =( There is probably a good reason, maybe, no, there is no reason that I know of why we cant have an equivalent.
Well to be honest because up until you and a very few others, few people generate ideas for the NR. Most people care for the Order and awesomeness of the IR, EotH, or PA.
I do think the NR will get the equiv of the Raptors and Novas eventually(the PA and EotH don't have an equiv mind you, they have equivs of the Infiltrators)
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Well to be honest because up until you and a very few others, few people generate ideas for the NR. Most people care for the Order and awesomeness of the IR, EotH, or PA.
Just because the community is less focused on them doesn't mean the team is. Most of the content and development in 2.0 was actually centered around the New Republic, leaving aside the basic infrastructure needed to get the PA functioning. 75% of the art for 2.0 was new NR units.
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Just because the community is less focused on them doesn't mean the team is. Most of the content and development in 2.0 was actually centered around the New Republic, leaving aside the basic infrastructure needed to get the PA functioning. 75% of the art for 2.0 was new NR units.
Well that's good, and surprising, news. And I do hope you have another infantry unit or two or 8 up your sleeve for the New Republic. Besides, I think the IR is already powerful enough, almost bordering OP, and the NR and EotH seem really weak compared to them (well, not REALLY weak, but quite a bit weaker). And I know the IR used too be an awesome Empire, but we need to look at this from a game play and balance standpoint, not canon. Because if this Mod is completely, 100% canon, wouldn't the NR lose essentially all its ground units after Era 3? and that wouldn't be fun for the(apparently few) NR commanders as the IR would steamroll us the the EotH and Penstar and win almost every time. and I just went on a rant but now it's out there =P
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Everyone get a drink and a bathroom break if you need it, this is going to be a long read. It took about 4-5 hours to write and I burned through a bunch of CDs so I'm assuming it'll take that long to read. At the end of it I've got a sort of summation where I just give basic answers to the individual suggestions.
for a hero, Renegade Squadron. Now listen Renegade squadron was around at the time, although briefly.
They disbanded right after the Battle of Endor. Renegade Squadron never existed during the mod's timeline.
maybe let them garrison more stuff like towers andd walls?
As for towers, what's the utility in that? With Bunkers, you're still doing something that's infantry-centric; you're adding to their defense and giving them something to shoot out of, but with turbolaser towers, it's really just going to keep them safe but you're effectively removing their offensive capabilities. It's the turret that's going to be doing all of the offensive work there because of its range. If those disparities were removed there might be some significant balance issues. Engaging against infantry in a bunker is pretty hard already, and Turbolaser towers are also pretty beastly on their own. Combine them and even with just one or two squads garrisoned in a turbo tower you're dealing with some seriously frustrating assaults, and it's not even really a "well learn how to counter it" kind of problem, the damage output compared with the sheer number of forces you'd need to take it out is pretty ridiculous. Garrisoning in towers isn't really a buff to infantry, it's a buff to the towers, and the towers are the last thing in ground combat that need a buff.
For walls, what type of wall are you talking about specifically?
and you could give them better abilities too
What ability are you thinking of? There really aren't any abilities in FoC that would be suitable to give to infantry squads that I can think of. We've already had to remove the take cover ability because of animation issues, and there's really nothing else that would work well on infantry.
especially since in TR you can drop 10 units in right off the bat.
This is no longer true in 2.0
No I'm almost positive it was the empire as it was at the beginning of Art of War on Yavin and there are no EotH planets even remotely close to that.
It's far more likely that the Empire of the Hand managed to spread through the northern half of the galaxy rather quickly than the Empire having access to stormtrooper commando minor heroes considering no coding for such a unit exists. As it is, no faction has access to any minor heroes of any kind. As far as major heroes go, the Empire has exactly one stormtrooper hero, that being Grodin Tierce in era 5 who isn't part of a squad and who also commands a Star Destroyer in space. The Empire of the Hand has two major hero squads made up of 4-5 stormtroopers, however; Aurek Seven and the Hand of Judgement. They're the only units in the mod that match what you're describing. Either way, the point that the New Republic should have access to these minor hero commandos if the Empire has them doesn't stand considering no such Imperial unit exists even if we did want to have completely mirrored factions (something I'll touch on more later in this post).
The alternative here is that another Imperial unit has become sentient and started coding in other units, in which case we should be more worried about the real world's ability to combat this new threat than the New Republic.
ArcHeavyGunner: B) the Infiltrators should get a squad of slightly weaker Commandos that are armed with fully automatic blasters. Does anyone agree with me or is my point completely ridiculous and stupid?
WillHelm: could one unit per squadron say have a grenade launcher to say simulate throwing grenades?
There's some technical issues with the individual infiltrators coming with additional squads of repeater commandos that Arc suggested which would only be soluble with really weird/limited numbers of units per company and by taking advantage of the company's cutoff per squad, meaning one squad of x and one squad of one (the overflow). I would like to increase the number of infiltrators/Phalanx Commandos per squad to 3, and maybe have each one use different weapons at some point. Yutpaeksi's right about the tactical choices involved in choosing when a commando should get sent, however as it is they're not quite worth the pop cap they take up for their limited map presence. They're primarily meant to be anti-infantry or even anti-building but the infantry inflation has sort of set them back.
As for Grenades in infantry squads, that sort of depends. For a grenade launcher specifically, the answer would be no. You already have plex squads to handle that (since RPGs are more for use against vehicles), it would be kind of pointless to put what is essentially just a plex soldier into the usual infantry squads unless we were just to do away with plex as their own squads entirely and integrate them. The problem with this has more to do with firing ranges and the fact that you can't prioritize different targets for single squad members. The alternative there is adding a secondary weapon being a thrown grenade to the regular soldiers, which I think could work. Or rather, just to the sergeant or another individual soldier on a lower cooldown in the squad so it's not a periodic grenade spam with 10 guys throwing grenades at onceand nuking things. You can't have different types of animations for different types of weapons, however, so there wouldn't be a grenade throwing animation. I do like the general idea of just adding a few grenades to the infantry even if I suspect the effect would be more of a graphical/atmospheric one than one that has a real impact on gameplay. I'm not talking about the sticky thermal detornator throwing ability, either.
I wanted to land some infantry I would but I would be knowing all to well that they will be instantly killed if I ask 5 squads of Infantry and 3 squads of Plex troopers to take out an AT-ST or 2 that happen to be flanking
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Personally I think infantry should be buffed so that on AT-ST can wipe out an entire company, which we know from the movies and the books is rare If Ewoks can take out several AT-STs shouldn't infantry be able to.
Honestly I think there's either some mismanagement or exaggeration going on here. As long as you're managing them properly you shouldn't even need half of that to take out an AT-ST. You can pretty effectively counter T2-B's with stormtroopers and the Stormtrooper versions of plex troopers, depending on how you catch them, and the NR's infantry are better than stormtroopers, with T2-B's generally being a bit weaker than AT-STs.
Using that kind of anecdote is pointless when deciding how to handle a mod or a game, and it doesn't really even have anything to do with "just balance reasons". They make a terrible jumping off point to base any kind of game design on, or even inferring the norm in the Star Wars universe. The point isn't to infer stats from shown events in books and movies, its to infer capabilities from given stats and known information. The basic logic behind this, if you want to rationalize it in-universe is that what we're being shown in the books and movies are the notable events, and that George Lucas isn't great at creating consistent universes.
For example, should we infer from the number of times Han put the Mon Remonda up against Iron Fist and came out on top that the MC80B should be better than an Executor when every single stat we have shows that's not true? Of course not. A lot of the X-Wing books are like this as well. The same thing gets applied to why the stormtroopers don't miss every shot they take and why AT-STs, an armoured anti-infantry crowd control mechanism doesn't fall to pieces every time it sees one or two untrained indigenous critters with excessive body hair and insecurities about their height.
I think the best examples we can use here are the Rogue Squadron games. If we used the events you play through in those games as the basis for capabilities, all you'd need is a single fighter and if not for the fact that it can't be at more than one planet at once you'd be laughing your way to the victory screen every time.
Also, if there was better body armor and Blasters would the Super powers invest in them, similar to how, at the birth of assault rifles, all the super powers dropped their bolt action rifle and picked up assault rifles? So I think the Nebulon to Corona analogy works fine for the reason I just mentioned.
No, the analogy still doesn't work for several reasons. You're inventing some revolution in technology halfway through the timelone that doesn't happen in-universe as a means to fix a problem, and then if that was chosen as the solution it wouldn't actually fix the problem because it would have literally no effect on the infantry before that point. If you think the mod is underpowering infantry compared to what they should be able to do, why would this only be true for half of the mod? You mentioned "dealing with the introduction of troop transports and new vehicles" and that kind of thing but that's also not true. Troop transports exist through the entirety of the mod, and the heaviest and most common vehicles (AT-AT being the prime example) had already existed for around 20, maybe even 30 years by that point. Even before then you had things like Juggernauts, AT-TE, etc.
It's fine to say "but if there was a revolution in x obviously the superpowers would invest in x", but in this case you're just inventing x. It's also entirely true that if there were a revolution in fighter armour in 11 ABY all the major powers would probably invest in it, but just because if there had been they would have invested in it doesn't mean we should invent a situation in which that happens.
With the Corona, it's not an out-universe way to address the strength of the Nebulon-B, it's representing an actual change that occured in the lore. If we were doing a real tech system, as in you level up your tech to get new types of ships instead of using the eras as both a storytelling and faction diversification method, as well as some basic form of tech progression, then we wouldn't have both the Nebulon-B and Corona in the mod. I can't get into much detail here, but it's something we discussed with the development of Ascendancy, and the Neulon-B won out.
The main point here is if there actually is a problem with infantry effectiveness, that has to be addressed universally with the gameplay changes. When we're making a change to fix a problem, we have a few steps we have to go through. We don't literally go through the steps (nobody says "let's do step 1 now", but it's the easiest and clearest way to communicate the general development process:
1. Identify the gameplay problem:
In this case, you're saying the infantry is either underpowered or useless.
2. Suggest a solution:
In this case, you're essentially saying to lock out the old infantry and create a whole new set for everyone at era 3.
3. Determine the logistics: (What needs to be done to implement this)
Design all new sets of infantry of every type for every faction (multiple new infantry designs, models, skins, animations, recode it all
4. Determine if the solution fits with canon: (Doesn't have to be a 1-1 correlation, but it has to match the universe and make sense)
Effectively, this solution fails in this part. There's no reason to believe all the infantry changed at this point, and it really can't be done for all the factions. For Stormtroopers we know they didn't have any significant weapon or armour changes. The only change there was that it was apparently more common for a Stormtrooper commander to be given one of those flachette weapons. Basically the whole situation is invented and goes directly against canon, though that's another thing I want to address more directly later.
5. Does it solve the gameplay problem:
This is the most important factor, and I think the answer here is no. These changes don't apply to two whole eras, which means the problem still exists in over half the GCs. It's not even a problem with infantry not keeping up with other military advances, in which case it might not be a problem at all, but that kind of advance just plain isn't happening. It just creates an era disparity in which the exact same problem exists and then creates a whole bunch of extra work (a year's worth of it, maybe more) to half-solve it.
Look at the alternative, now:
1. Identify the gameplay problem:
In this case, you're saying the infantry is either underpowered or useless.
2. Suggest a solution:
Change the stats and functions of infantry as they are.
3. Determine the logistics:
Just figure out the new numbers needed, change the code and maybe create a few new projectiles.
4. Determine if the solution fits with canon:
The canon is essentially irrelevant here, nothing in those numbers can be said to go for or against infantry, this is entirely the realm of gameplay mechanics and infantry kit.
5. Does it solve the gameplay problem:
A universal change with no disparities between eras, if the new numbers are successful then it is a complete solution to the problem.
And I know the IR used too be an awesome Empire, but we need to look at this from a game play and balance standpoint, not canon. Because if this Mod is completely, 100% canon, wouldn't the NR lose essentially all its ground units after Era 3?
From what I know the military restructuring they did wasn't quite as extensive as Xizer implied, though. It certainly wasn't abolished, it was actually just a change with more importance placed on SecForce vs Specforce (which also goes against what you said about the restructuring should mean more focus on elite SpecForce soldiers). The best analogy I can make to the real world is basically if the United States had each state with its own military (equivalent to Alliance SecForces) which was also somewhat accessible to the federal government (Alliance SecCom), and then the federal government had its own smaller core of directly controlled military forces (this is SpecForce, attached to Alliance High Command). After a certain point around Palpatine's Operation Shadow Hand, greater importance was placed on the SecForces at the expense of SpecForce. It would have been SpecForce that saw a decline there, and SecForce that actually saw the increase in prominance. From what I can tell the New Republic soldiers in the mod are actually already part of SpecForce as well, and SpecForce was actually just the NR/Alliance's version of Stormtroopers. The soldiers on Hoth and Endor were, to my understanding, part of SpecForce.
And didn't the Rebel Alliance and then the New Republic have a very good and prominent Specials forces unit called SpecForce. They did and it saddens me that sucha major assest(Raids on Endor and taking over Couresant) is not represented in this mod.
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I just realized, the IR is getting Nova COMMANDOS. COMMANDOS. Why does the IR get all the cool stuff. Spread the love and give all the factions commandos, please with ice cream on top.
I meant to represent the Marines, Pathfinders, Rangers, Gunners, and Urban Combat Specialist too! Besides, anyone can pick up a sniper rifle, some thermaldetonatros, and move inhumanly fast. =P ( I still don't consider the Infiltrators commandos, only snipers)
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This is what I want except for the New Republic! Why can't we have it! =( There is probably a good reason, maybe, no, there is no reason that I know of why we cant have an equivalent.
Like Slornie said and I've covered, Infiltrators are part of SpecForce just like the regular infantry. The basic structure of the NR army is taken from the Alliance military, since very little information is available on any reorganizations made by the NR to the Alliance military system, and everything we do know says there was if anything an increase in SecForce prominance. The Nova Commandos weren't added to the mod as something the NR/EotH didn't get, they were added specifically because the Infiltrators and Phalanx Commandos exist. Just because the Nova Commandos are called Commandos and the Infiltrators aren't don't mean they're not Commandos, a commando is any unit specially trained to operate quickly and aggressively, and the Infiltrators fit that description, probably better than the Nova Commandos do. They're each side's version of elite infantry. The NR's basic infantry were already better than Stormtroopers, and the NR had Infiltrators on top of that, which is why the IR got them in the form they did.
As far as doing different infantry to fill the roles Marines and all these other types of people do in the real world, there really isn't space for that in a game like EaW. There's no reason to have most of it and no room to make them actually different. This engine doesn't have the same subleties and depth for ground combat that something like, say, Company of Heroes does.
Well that's good, and surprising, news. And I do hope you have another infantry unit or two or 8 up your sleeve for the New Republic. Besides, I think the IR is already powerful enough, almost bordering OP, and the NR and EotH seem really weak compared to them (well, not REALLY weak, but quite a bit weaker). And I know the IR used too be an awesome Empire, but we need to look at this from a game play and balance standpoint, not canon. Because if this Mod is completely, 100% canon, wouldn't the NR lose essentially all its ground units after Era 3? and that wouldn't be fun for the(apparently few) NR commanders as the IR would steamroll us the the EotH and Penstar and win almost every time. and I just went on a rant but now it's out there =P
Actually, the stuff about the Remnant being overpowered is objectively not true, both in previous versions and in 2.0. Saying anything about how it used to be a big superpower means nothing for balance, because we've never considered faction size for anything like that, except for planet distribution in some GCs and occaisionally starting forces as well. Unless you can give specific reasons why you think the IR is overpowered, then I can just as easily point out 5 people who think the NR is overpowered, the IR is underpowered, or the EotH is over/underpowered.
ArcHeavyGunner: I still think that A) Every faction should get an E-Web equivalent
Lord Xizer: I agree each should get some sort of E Web equiv
As Yutpaeksi said, the goal here isn't to give every faction all the same kinds of units. The Nova Troopers were added because they had a specific hole and the performance was decidely suffering from it, but "Empire had x so New Republic should get x as well" isn't really a reason to do things, or else there's a lot of other things we'd be doing as well.
1. New Republic has V-Wings and Snowspeeders, EotH has AirStraeker. Therefore, Remnant and PA should get an Airspeeder.
2. New Republic has Gallofree HTT, therefore every faction should get a flying transport with a lot of unit slots.
3. Remnant and PA have the IDT and LAAT, therefore every faction should get a gunship.
4. Remnant, NR, PA all have superships/heroes in superships, therefore EotH should get superships.
5. EotH has MMT and IR has AT-AT, therefore the NR should get an individual powerhouse unit instead of T4's.
There are situations where a faction is suffering from a unit or class not being there, such as the EotH not having the A-Rack, or missing some space defense platforms, but this is more because things take time to do/lacking designs than because we don't want to do them.
I could go on, but again, this post is taking five hours and I'm almost out of music.
That being said about factional differences, an NR/EotH E-Web like the thing on Hoth for the NR is something I'd like, but it's really not feasible for us to make. Kitbashes/new weapon models and the occaisonal animation tweak to accomodate those are things I'm capable of doing, but entirely new infantry models and animation sets and that kind of thing are beyond my ability; the majority of the new infantry units in the mod were done by Dr. Knickers, and he's too busy with other things to work on that kind of major undertaking, not to mention that he's really out of practice with it. Character/organic modeling and skinning is totally different from vehicle/ship/prop/hard surface modelling and skinning, and there's the added skillset of animation needed. The character models and animations for the hologram things are the limit of my abilities, and even at his best the complexity of the E-Web wasn't something even Knickers was able to do. I made a model for one years ago, we only got it in this year because we decided to use Bailknight's. It's the difference between giving the existing infiltrator model a repeater and completely changing all its movements, deployment animation, etc.
This would be most enjoyable, also if walls could offer SOME protection instead of missiles and Turbos most of the time firing through them.
There are ways to make objects give their surrounding areas give certain bonuses to infantry, like the sandbag circles in vanilla, however the thing about that if you did that on a single object facing multiple directions, aka walls, is that you'd get it regardless of which side you were on or facing. So you could be standing on the same side of the wall as your enemy and you'd get the bonus, which makes no sense.
So, in summation (and screw everyone who just jumps here, I spent a long time writing this post, also screw anyone who reads the above and not this):
1. Renegade Squadron:
No, disbanded.
2. Add SpecForce:
SpecForce refers to just the nationally-controlled branch of the Army. The infantry in the mod are already SpecForce. So already done.
3. Katarn Commandos:
Possible, but I don't see the point.
4. Grenades:
I'm all for making the Sergeants throw a grenade every once in a while, but not RPGs since that would be stepping on the toes of the Plex soldiers too much.
5. Switch all infantry out at era 3 for better ones:
Definitely not; if changes are necessary to make infantry better, they shouldn't just be randomly applied to one timeframe.
6. Sniper Infiltrators come with repeater infiltrator squad, or more per squad:
I'd definitely be willing to attempt to put different weapon types on them and making 3 per company with different weapons, but not for 2.0. If we delay it any longer I'm probably gonna get more hatemail. I also wouldn't want to go past 3 per squad for the reasons Yutpaeksi mentioned. For technical reasons can't make a squad come with the individual things though.
7. Garrison troopers in turrets:
I guess I'm open to it if the rest of the team wanted it, but I think it would draw battles on even longer and is more of a buff to the already-OP turbolasers, not to infantry.
8. Garrison troopers in walls:
Still not sure what walls this refers to, so our thoughts on the matter probably depend on that. The other thing about garrisoning is the infantry wouldn't show up so they'd be literally inside the wall, and the wall would be shooting.
9. E-Webs for EotH/NR:
Not opposed to this, but also not capable of doing most forms of it that I can think of. If people have specific suggestions for what they could be, feel free to post them but we're somewhat limited in this field. Xizer made some but I'm not sure it was the kind of thing the rest of you were referring to.
10. Faction X is OP:
I can easily find 5 other people saying the other two factions are OP, unless you're able to give actual reasons why you think they're OP.
11. The Empire has Commando Stormtrooper minor heroes:
Except not really.
12. Corey, nobody's reading this anymore.
Yeah, I know.
All of that being said, thanks for the suggestions and keep the discussion going. I'll try to be shorter/reply earlier next time. Even if we disagree with a suggestion sometimes it can make us think of other ways to do something or a different idea.
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Okay, I don't want to quote Corey's entire post, so I'll refer to the numbers bit(and read his post!)
6) That's all I wanted to hear. And, just as a morale victory, could you just rename the Infiltrators as New Republic Commandos? Also I'm glad too know it is possible, yet very hard, to add a repeater infiltrators too the mix and even if you don't do it, it was still a morale victory.
9) Well you said you could make new weapon models and projectiles so just remodel the basic infantry weapons and projectiles( I know its not perfect but you don't want to take three years now do you) Specific ideas: New Republic gets Light Repeaters, EotH gets Flamethrowers since they love fire(apparently), and Penstar gets Shotguns or something else. Was gonna say grenade launchers but I remember you saying that would be OP so no.
1) Yeah, I know =(
2)Please!!!! (yeah there is no reason but please!)
also thank you for pointing out everything that was wrong with my ideas and my canon inconsistencies. Not being sarcastic, I promise. No, I'm seriously grateful for that. =)
Also
1.Problem(kinda)
IR has E-Webs, would be nice if other factions got equivalents
2.Suggest
Other factions get equivalents ie Flamethrowers, Light Repeater and Shotguns
3.Logistics
Make three(ish) new weapon models(which you said was possible) and new projectiles plus some coding/scripting stuff which I don't understand.
4.But is it Canon
Yeah, We know that there were flamethrowers, light repeaters, and shotguns in use by the Super powers at the time of the mod, so, yeah, it seems canon
5.Yes, it does(probably)
Here, new and improved(again), are my ideas. What do you think? (Is ANY of this possible?)(Please say yes)
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2)Please!!!! (yeah there is no reason but please!)
Please read the relevant section of my post again. Like I said, the infantry in the mod are already SpecForce. SpecForce just refers to the nationally trained and controlled bits of the army. They aren't commandos or anything special like that. The only thing left to add are SecForce (Sector Forces), which would have to vary by system and would be worse than the existing infantry.
Think of it this way.
Stormtroopers = SpecForce
Army Troopers = SecForce
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I thought the Katarn Commandos were number two? Damn it, I meant three. Note too self, learn how to read.
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Arc, a commando unit, like Page's Katarn Commandos or Wraith Squadron, what exactly are you looking for in terms of capability? You're not going to get something like from the fiction, which is a unit that apparently can't get killed ever and has 12 different abilities, ranging from explosives to sniping, to even maybe having an X-wing or 9 for air cover.
At best you're going to get something like 2 squads of 6 men each that have better health/damage than normal troopers, with maybe a a sapper ability or something. If that's added, for one thing, that should NOT be a buildable unit. It's fun to read about those super-capable commandos because they are elite, very unique, canonical characters. You shouldn't be able to build 50 of those units because that would be a) not in keeping with the idea that they're people who are very hard to find and train, b) ridiculously unbalanced in terms of gameplay.
But the real reason I would argue against adding this type of unit, is that it's simply not needed, The NR's forces already have all the usual tenets of strategy game forces, with two basic types of very useful infantry, along with a special infantry unit in the infiltrators (sniping and sapping abilities), and a healer. If you're losing a lot of infantry, don't be surprised, they're sort of meant to be cannon fodder outside of bunkers. That's why they're so inexpensive. Even infiltrators, I'd argue, are too cheap. You can win enter land battles with just a single infiltrator, even against heavy defenses, if you have a fleet in orbit.
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Arc, a commando unit, like Page's Katarn Commandos or Wraith Squadron, what exactly are you looking for in terms of capability? You're not going to get something like from the fiction, which is a unit that apparently can't get killed ever and has 12 different abilities, ranging from explosives to sniping, to even maybe having an X-wing or 9 for air cover.
At best you're going to get something like 2 squads of 6 men each that have better health/damage than normal troopers, with maybe a a sapper ability or something. If that's added, for one thing, that should NOT be a buildable unit. It's fun to read about those super-capable commandos because they are elite, very unique, canonical characters. You shouldn't be able to build 50 of those units because that would be a) not in keeping with the idea that they're people who are very hard to find and train, b) ridiculously unbalanced in terms of gameplay.
But the real reason I would argue against adding this type of unit, is that it's simply not needed, The NR's forces already have all the usual tenets of strategy game forces, with two basic types of very useful infantry, along with a special infantry unit in the infiltrators (sniping and sapping abilities), and a healer. If you're losing a lot of infantry, don't be surprised, they're sort of meant to be cannon fodder outside of bunkers. That's why they're so inexpensive. Even infiltrators, I'd argue, are too cheap. You can win enter land battles with just a single infiltrator, even against heavy defenses, if you have a fleet in orbit.
Read my earlier posts.
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I saw this and I just... grenades do exist in the star wars universe, heard of thermal detonators? im sure there are other kinds of grenades but infantry like storm troopers defiantly had grenades. I am just choosing to represent those grenades with a grenade launcher because the thermal detonator ability in this game in more like a mini nuke and its kinda hard to use, infantry had explosives but not the kind the commandos and saboteurs likely had, they'd be too expensive
You realise thermal detonators are time-based bombs. They must be on a fixed area, whereas Grenaiders used Grenade launchers(impact based) You cannot just simply hurl so many thermal detonators when one is enough to destroy T-2B tanks(or heavily damage it). And the kind stormtroopers use are self defence, besides having solid grenades being consnatly launched doesn't sound practical for infantry, rather than energy lasers
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Just because the community is less focused on them doesn't mean the team is. Most of the content and development in 2.0 was actually centered around the New Republic, leaving aside the basic infrastructure needed to get the PA functioning. 75% of the art for 2.0 was new NR units.
Apologies, I did not mean it to sound as though the team was unconcerned. I meant that there were not as many suggestions from the community about the NR as the other factions.
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4. Grenades:
I'm all for making the Sergeants throw a grenade every once in a while, but not RPGs since that would be stepping on the toes of the Plex soldiers too much.
7. Garrison troopers in turrets:
I guess I'm open to it if the rest of the team wanted it, but I think it would draw battles on even longer and is more of a buff to the already-OP turbolasers, not to infantry.
8. Garrison troopers in walls:
Still not sure what walls this refers to, so our thoughts on the matter probably depend on that. The other thing about garrisoning is the infantry wouldn't show up so they'd be literally inside the wall, and the wall would be shooting.
4. YES, I am officially happy now XD
7/8. Corey I was more referring to things like prop towers and prop walls as garrisoning turbo laser towers I agree would be OP. I simply want towers and/or walls to be garrison-able because while things like bunkers are nice and all they are usually located in locations that are kind of silly... like in the middle of fields or along so random path, this makes them impractical, indefensible and usually only worth using if all your fighting is infiltrators, walls and towers on the other hand are in more practical and useful in the locations they are in on maps making them much more ideal to garrison, also towers could give infantry a range bonus (if possible) to make them more desirable than bunkers. walls on the other hand i only want to be garrison-able because well things like walls done do much else, they dont block attacks or vision, just movement frustratingly :P
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How are Turbo towers OPed?
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They're already able to 1v1 an AT-AT and they usually come in pairs pretty close together, and there's usually 5 of them. If you put infantry in them that just makes it even worse.
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They're already able to 1v1 an AT-AT and they usually come in pairs pretty close together, and there's usually 5 of them. If you put infantry in them that just makes it even worse.
Well Turbos were meant to deal with CAP Ships so it makes sense they'd be able to cut open an ATAT with relative ease. Also they are not good at dealing with infantry. I use Raptor troopers or Novas and can cut down Turbos with ease as long as there isn't a anti infantry turret to guard it.
(Also kudos, I'm a Grand Admiral!)
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The walls would have to be edited to be bigger and look as though they could have people contained within. Sort of like a medieval castle.
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The walls would have to be edited to be bigger and look as though they could have people contained within. Sort of like a medieval castle.
So the walls are the same, tactically, as a ring of bunkers or sandbags except more visually impressive?
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So the walls are the same, tactically, as a ring of bunkers or sandbags except more visually impressive?
is that not what walls are in reality? :P
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My apartment is full of walls but I've never managed to sit inside of them and shoot at people.
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My apartment is full of walls but I've never managed to sit inside of them and shoot at people.
Thats... a good point!
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My apartment is full of walls but I've never managed to sit inside of them and shoot at people.
Have you actually tried?
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All right, I've been watching this post, and I will thus give you my opinion. First, in the Thrawn trilogy, it is mentioned that Stormtroopers were very rare and not used often. Therefore, I suggest that the IR be given basic troops as the cheapest unit. Stormtroopers should be the most expensive infantry, due to the training required for them. They should have more health, have the take cover ability (they were trained to take cover in basic training, I'm sure) and should be given a thermal detonator ability, as each Stormtrooper carries one thermal det. It could have a long recharge time, and would be an area effect, as if each Stormtrooper threw his thermal det. This would help counter those pesky PLEX troopers, and give Stormtroopers more of the place they deserve: as elite infantry units. I also agree that the other factions should have a counter to the E-web trooper.
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All right, I've been watching this post, and I will thus give you my opinion. First, in the Thrawn trilogy, it is mentioned that Stormtroopers were very rare and not used often. Therefore, I suggest that the IR be given basic troops as the cheapest unit. Stormtroopers should be the most expensive infantry, due to the training required for them. They should have more health, have the take cover ability (they were trained to take cover in basic training, I'm sure) and should be given a thermal detonator ability, as each Stormtrooper carries one thermal det. It could have a long recharge time, and would be an area effect, as if each Stormtrooper threw his thermal det. This would help counter those pesky PLEX troopers, and give Stormtroopers more of the place they deserve: as elite infantry units. I also agree that the other factions should have a counter to the E-web trooper.
If my stormtroopers start hitting everything that moves, I'm going to have to pick my jaw up off the floor. I have to agree with you, though, all that training just doesn't seem to prove out like I want. All the supplies, armor, training, and money should do something meaningful right? Rebel troopers didn't have a 50% fatality course.
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My apartment is full of walls but I've never managed to sit inside of them and shoot at people.
lol you know i didnt mean those kinda walls :P
All right, I've been watching this post, and I will thus give you my opinion. First, in the Thrawn trilogy, it is mentioned that Stormtroopers were very rare and not used often. Therefore, I suggest that the IR be given basic troops as the cheapest unit. Stormtroopers should be the most expensive infantry, due to the training required for them. They should have more health, have the take cover ability (they were trained to take cover in basic training, I'm sure) and should be given a thermal detonator ability, as each Stormtrooper carries one thermal det. It could have a long recharge time, and would be an area effect, as if each Stormtrooper threw his thermal det. This would help counter those pesky PLEX troopers, and give Stormtroopers more of the place they deserve: as elite infantry units. I also agree that the other factions should have a counter to the E-web trooper.
All I will say is nova commandos :P
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If my stormtroopers start hitting everything that moves, I'm going to have to pick my jaw up off the floor. I have to agree with you, though, all that training just doesn't seem to prove out like I want. All the supplies, armor, training, and money should do something meaningful right? Rebel troopers didn't have a 50% fatality course.
You see, that is where Lucas really messed everything up. Do you remember on ANH, when the Tantive IV was boarded? Remember how like six Stormtroopers were able to rush through the door they created and clear the ship of Rebels, all of whom were in positions of cover. Remember saying, wow those Stormtroopers are really cool? And then, each successive time they appear, they get dumber and dumber, until a band of primitives were able to wipe out an entire legion of the Emporers own elite troops. In my opinion, this battle was the worst thing to happen to Star Wars, even worse than Jar Jar. With Jar Jar, he was an idiot from the beginning. Stormtroopers, on the other hand, started as these elite soldiers (remember Obi Wan: And these blast points, too accurate to be Sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers could be so precise) and became the laughingstock of Star Wars. The same thing with TIE Fighters. And this is all because people like seeing the almighty good guys get off unscathed. Well wake up, idiots. This is war, and war is never fair, no one goes unscathed; the only people that survive are either the best, lucky, or cowards who never went to the front lines and got their hands dirty. Thank you for listening to my rant, and I'm sorry if I offended someone, but I am tired of seeing people that think Stormtroopers are anything but elite soldiers, the best of the Empire.
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They may be the elite forces of the Empire, but that doesn't say anything for how they compare to the forces of any of the other factions. Making a dual-tiered infantry system like that in the mod would be pointless because there'd be no real way to make a difference without making the lower tier just not worth the credits, since infantry are already so cheap. The infantry we have in the mod are already those "Elite" forces for everyone. There's just no reason for us to waste time and resources trying to make an infantry level below the PA Enforcers, IR Stormtroopers, NR SpecForce and EotH Phalanx Troopers. Them being the "best of the Empire" doesn't mean they're better than SpecForce, doesn't mean they're better than the Phalanx soldiers, and doesn't mean they're better than the Enforcers.
The reason we're not giving them all the Thermal Det ability is because it /would/ be overpowered and it would mean infantry could beat everything. The reason we're not leaving the take cover ability on them is because we can't give it to the NR soldiers, which means there'd be a huge disparity there.
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Also
1.Problem(kinda)
IR has E-Webs, would be nice if other factions got equivalents
2.Suggest
Other factions get equivalents ie Flamethrowers, Light Repeater and Shotguns
3.Logistics
Make three(ish) new weapon models(which you said was possible) and new projectiles plus some coding/scripting stuff which I don't understand.
4.But is it Canon
Yeah, We know that there were flamethrowers, light repeaters, and shotguns in use by the Super powers at the time of the mod, so, yeah, it seems canon
5.Yes, it does(probably)
Here, new and improved(again), are my ideas. What do you think? (Is ANY of this possible?)(Please say yes)
Yes, this was posted earlier in the thread, but I feel like it is being over looked and is a good point. Sorry if I broke some rules, as I was never alerted to not being able to do this.
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First off, you don't need to post everything in that format. I was posting the rough thought process you should put ideas through to make sure they make sense, like I said we don't sit there and map out those exact steps, you don't have to openly go through them like that. Also, I wrote like 3 paragraphs on this in my long post there, so it's hard to say it was getting overlooked.
As for the specifics, how are shotguns, light repeaters and flamethrowers the equivalents of an E-Web exactly? Especially a shogun, that seems like the exact opposite of what an E-Web is doing.
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First off, you don't need to post everything in that format. I was posting the rough thought process you should put ideas through to make sure they make sense, like I said we don't sit there and map out those exact steps, you don't have to openly go through them like that. Also, I wrote like 3 paragraphs on this in my long post there, so it's hard to say it was getting overlooked.
As for the specifics, how are shotguns, light repeaters and flamethrowers the equivalents of an E-Web exactly? Especially a shogun, that seems like the exact opposite of what an E-Web is doing.
Light Repeaters are a more portable, squad based variation of Mounted repeater(ie E-web). For a real life example, the E-Web is similar to the M2 Browning 50cal. Big, Heavy, not very portable but able to lay down massive amounts of firepower. The light repeaters are similar the the M249 SAW or the M60. Smaller, more portable, but able to put down less firepower but still more effective than the M2 on a squad level.
Flamethrowers are used in close combat as anti-infantry weapons (close meaning 50ish meters) to "burn out" the enemy infantry from bunkers and hard positions, like where E-webs and other heavy repeaters are stationed. Maybe the could do more damage to bunkers.
Shotguns are used in very close combat(10ish meters) and are very, very devastating. Also I didn't want to repeat myself and they are the only other anti infantry weapons I can think of, as snipers are already in the mod. If you or anyone else can think of a better alternative that would be great.
I hope this helps as I want this to be desperately implemented in the mod since my Special Forces idea got shot down in a fire ball of reasons.
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Arc, I think you're misunderstanding the role and functionality of the E-web units. They're essentially movable anti-infantry turrets. That means they're primarily a defensive unit. This fits the IR war machine, a meticulous and somewhat slow powerhouse. It's not a unit that really fits in with the other armies' style.
Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with that, what you're proposing here for each side, wouldn't serve anywhere near the same purpose except for maybe the flamethrowers. A light repeater, like the SAW, would either end up being too much like the E-web (i.e. slow and including a deployment time) or it would be vastly overpowered for an infantry. The reason why is that all blaster bolts in the game are already very effective against infantry (you don't need to hit 4-5 times to kill each man). A unit running around with a crazy high rate of fire would be TOO effective against opposing infantry. That's why the E-webs have to be balanced by lack of mobility. For a mobile unit, you already have many anti-infantry vehicles already in the game. Now you could say that having infantry that can do that too is good for garrisoning in bunkers, but when in bunkers, regular infantry already fire seemingly nonstop coherent beams of light that wipe out approaching infantry.
A shotgunner, while an interesting idea, would also be very difficult in this game, and as you may or may not have noticed, doesn't really exist in the GFFA. The probable reason why is that blaster rifles already pack a lot of punch against other infantry. It's a LASER, it burns big holes THROUGH people. A shorter range weapon with more killing power would actually be a real disadvantage. They'd be slaughtered before they can close to range. You would have to buff them to be armored so that they can even get close enough. Even then, once they get close enough, what exactly would a laser shotgun DO that a blaster rifle or carbine can't? You could make it a more powerful weapon but in the game that wouldn't be any more useful against other infantry, it might help against vehicles, but that's what plex infantry is for, and they would have much better range. Now a flechette weapon is a better approximation, with an area-of-effect attack, something that can say kill an entire opposing infantry squad in a single blast. Then you'd have balance issues (see flamethrower below).
A flamethrower unit might be the only one that fits. But in the vanilla game, Boba Fett's flamethrower was a powerful area-of-effect wearpon and could slaughter infantry squads sent after one lone hero. If that was a regular mobile infantry weapon it would be overpowered. No other infantry would stand a chance if it was of equal range to a blaster rifle. Now you could make it a deployable infantry unit like the E-web, but I'm not so sure that makes sense and the EotH already has flame tanks. If you haven't noticed the TR team has done a great job of making the EotH a mobile, flexible fighting force (hence the lack of buildable turrets). A fixed defensive unit like that doesn't fit into that philosophy, whereas a Phalanx commando, a highly capable Chiss soldier trained to operate independently, fits much better.
I like these ideas, they're very fun combat ideas and while this sort of infantry-centric type combat would fit in say, Relic's Company of Heroes, it's tougher in a star wars game centered around crazy futuristic weaponry and vehicles. For Christ's sake, they have giant walking armored camels with fricking lasers on their heads!
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They may be the elite forces of the Empire, but that doesn't say anything for how they compare to the forces of any of the other factions. Making a dual-tiered infantry system like that in the mod would be pointless because there'd be no real way to make a difference without making the lower tier just not worth the credits, since infantry are already so cheap. The infantry we have in the mod are already those "Elite" forces for everyone. There's just no reason for us to waste time and resources trying to make an infantry level below the PA Enforcers, IR Stormtroopers, NR SpecForce and EotH Phalanx Troopers. Them being the "best of the Empire" doesn't mean they're better than SpecForce, doesn't mean they're better than the Phalanx soldiers, and doesn't mean they're better than the Enforcers.
The reason we're not giving them all the Thermal Det ability is because it /would/ be overpowered and it would mean infantry could beat everything. The reason we're not leaving the take cover ability on them is because we can't give it to the NR soldiers, which means there'd be a huge disparity there.
Yeah, I know, it just rubs me the wrong way when everyone makes fun of them. I think that Stormtroopers should at least be stronger than Rebel soldiers, since they are more heavily armored after all.
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Yeah, I know, it just rubs me the wrong way when everyone makes fun of them. I think that Stormtroopers should at least be stronger than Rebel soldiers, since they are more heavily armored after all.
That's definitely not happening.
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Yeah, I know, it just rubs me the wrong way when everyone makes fun of them. I think that Stormtroopers should at least be stronger than Rebel soldiers, since they are more heavily armored after all.
Sounds like you're a fan of Allegiance and Choices of One. I agree wholeheartedly.
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Stormtrooper armor helps defend against environmental hazards, physical weaponry, and low-grade blaster fire. Against military-grade blasters it does absolutely nothing. As seen by Han Solo's illegal heavy-grade pistol easily penetrating and killing stormtroopers.
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Arc, I think you're misunderstanding the role and functionality of the E-web units. They're essentially movable anti-infantry turrets. That means they're primarily a defensive unit. This fits the IR war machine, a meticulous and somewhat slow powerhouse. It's not a unit that really fits in with the other armies' style.
Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with that, what you're proposing here for each side, wouldn't serve anywhere near the same purpose except for maybe the flamethrowers. A light repeater, like the SAW, would either end up being too much like the E-web (i.e. slow and including a deployment time) or it would be vastly overpowered for an infantry. The reason why is that all blaster bolts in the game are already very effective against infantry (you don't need to hit 4-5 times to kill each man). A unit running around with a crazy high rate of fire would be TOO effective against opposing infantry. That's why the E-webs have to be balanced by lack of mobility. For a mobile unit, you already have many anti-infantry vehicles already in the game. Now you could say that having infantry that can do that too is good for garrisoning in bunkers, but when in bunkers, regular infantry already fire seemingly nonstop coherent beams of light that wipe out approaching infantry.
A shotgunner, while an interesting idea, would also be very difficult in this game, and as you may or may not have noticed, doesn't really exist in the GFFA. The probable reason why is that blaster rifles already pack a lot of punch against other infantry. It's a LASER, it burns big holes THROUGH people. A shorter range weapon with more killing power would actually be a real disadvantage. They'd be slaughtered before they can close to range. You would have to buff them to be armored so that they can even get close enough. Even then, once they get close enough, what exactly would a laser shotgun DO that a blaster rifle or carbine can't? You could make it a more powerful weapon but in the game that wouldn't be any more useful against other infantry, it might help against vehicles, but that's what plex infantry is for, and they would have much better range. Now a flechette weapon is a better approximation, with an area-of-effect attack, something that can say kill an entire opposing infantry squad in a single blast. Then you'd have balance issues (see flamethrower below).
A flamethrower unit might be the only one that fits. But in the vanilla game, Boba Fett's flamethrower was a powerful area-of-effect wearpon and could slaughter infantry squads sent after one lone hero. If that was a regular mobile infantry weapon it would be overpowered. No other infantry would stand a chance if it was of equal range to a blaster rifle. Now you could make it a deployable infantry unit like the E-web, but I'm not so sure that makes sense and the EotH already has flame tanks. If you haven't noticed the TR team has done a great job of making the EotH a mobile, flexible fighting force (hence the lack of buildable turrets). A fixed defensive unit like that doesn't fit into that philosophy, whereas a Phalanx commando, a highly capable Chiss soldier trained to operate independently, fits much better.
I like these ideas, they're very fun combat ideas and while this sort of infantry-centric type combat would fit in say, Relic's Company of Heroes, it's tougher in a star wars game centered around crazy futuristic weaponry and vehicles. For Christ's sake, they have giant walking armored camels with fricking lasers on their heads!
Do you have any better ideas then BESIDES only the imps should get them. And yes, I am very aware of the camels. My whole idea was to make infantry play a BIGGER role in this mod. I have been getting very mixed reactions to all my ideas. That is where I am coming from. And it appears that infantry will be getting even weaker in 2.0 thanks to the removal of take-cover. That's why I wanted a stronger special forces unit. This is why I want E-Web equivalents. To make up for that deficiency. I want people to use infantry when invading planets, not just defending them. I cant think of anything else to say.
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I want people to use infantry when invading planets, not just defending them. I cant think of anything else to say.
People will need to use infantry. They are necessary to capture reinforcement points (2.0 reverts to the distributed pop. system found in vanilla), abandoned structures (those sensor arrays and turbolasers can come in very handy), as well as bunkers and build pads.
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People will need to use infantry. They are necessary to capture reinforcement points (2.0 reverts to the distributed pop. system found in vanilla), abandoned structures (those sensor arrays and turbolasers can come in very handy), as well as bunkers and build pads.
Yup, and because of the need for infantry in 2.0, they won't be considered disposable like they were in 1.3 most of the time.
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Yup, and because of the need for infantry in 2.0, they won't be considered disposable like they were in 1.3 most of the time.
Which leads me to wonder, since sometimes I consider long ground battles tedious, if the auto-resolve has been altered for 2.0? Will I lose troops horribly every time or have other factors changed? In 1.3 I just send 30X infantry and auto resolve. Floods worked.
Yeah, I know, I'm an evil Imperial who doesn't care for my troops. I just love space battles.
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Sadly, autoresolve still blows. I don't think there's ANYTHING the modding team can do to help that. Although, I actually enjoy using the PA for ground battles now. I still don't like them with anyone else.
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Sadly, autoresolve still blows. I don't think there's ANYTHING the modding team can do to help that. Although, I actually enjoy using the PA for ground battles now. I still don't like them with anyone else.
That's good to hear, because the PA is looking like my favorite faction for 2.0
I'll also remember to avoid auto-resolving anything that contains hero units.
Just to keep the thread on topic: Removing the cover option for infantry is going to make expanding the reinforcement points quite a challenge. Who knows, perhaps that will make land battles more interesting. Otherwise, I'll bomber spam.
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None of the testers have access to this stuff in their builds yet, but I've been playing around with ground stuff a lot in the last week or so. Movement speeds for infantry have doubled (0.8 to 1.6) and vehicles have all increased somewhere between 20% and 50% as well. Line of sight has also been doubled for all units. Garrisons are also not unlimited now (except for infantry), which have been one of the biggest tedium-increasing factors in ground battles, I find. There's nothing worse than making all of this progress in ground battles, then it doesn't fucking matter at all because here comes the exact same units you just killed. Now you get two cycles of them, then it's over.
I don't think there's ANYTHING the modding team can do to help that.
There isn't. We can decide the values the game's using for each unit, but beyond that all of the equations are effectively untouchable.
Do you have any better ideas then BESIDES only the imps should get them.
What's the problem with just the Remnant having them?
My whole idea was to make infantry play a BIGGER role in this mod.
Infantry do play a big role, and not just for capturing RPs. I use them a lot for scouting, they're easily the best way to take out turbolaser towers (which is a big deal), a company of them can still take out a light tank on their own. Infantry are already actually the only unit of any type that are absolutely necessary. They're completely viable.
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None of the testers have access to this stuff in their builds yet, but I've been playing around with ground stuff a lot in the last week or so. Movement speeds for infantry have doubled (0.8 to 1.6) and vehicles have all increased somewhere between 20% and 50% as well. Line of sight has also been doubled for all units. Garrisons are also not unlimited now (except for infantry), which have been one of the biggest tedium-increasing factors in ground battles, I find. There's nothing worse than making all of this progress in ground battles, then it doesn't fucking matter at all because here comes the exact same units you just killed. Now you get two cycles of them, then it's over.
I dare say that one change will make land battles fun for the factions.
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Stormtrooper armor helps defend against environmental hazards, physical weaponry, and low-grade blaster fire. Against military-grade blasters it does absolutely nothing. As seen by Han Solo's illegal heavy-grade pistol easily penetrating and killing stormtroopers.
I quote Wookieepedia: The armor significantly reduced damage to the wearer from a blaster bolt.
Enough said.
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I quote Wookieepedia: The armor significantly reduced damage to the wearer from a blaster bolt.
Enough said.
I quote Wookiepedia: Although it could be penetrated by a direct blaster bolt. It disperses the blast enough that low-powered civilian blasters would have little effect. However heavier blasters can easily punch through. Every time a stormtrooper has taken a direct hit they've gone down. It might not necessarily kill them (shown in the X-Wing series where a pilot takes a direct hit in stormie armor and is severely injured but not dead), but they're out of combat regardless.
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So is there any chance, even a remote chance, of adding repeater infiltrators or E-Web equivalents of some form to at least one other faction. I always thought the New Republic was meant to be played defensively so they could get the E-Web variant. Is anyone still reading this thread? I still want an answer to my questions that are mentioned above. (to self)No one is reading this thread anymore Jeremy, just stop trying.
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Yutpaeksi covered pretty well why a repeater infiltrator like what you're suggesting wouldn't really work, it'd be way more powerful than the E-Web which fits a pretty niche purpose as it is.
What questions are we not answering, exactly? The only things you've asked about since my 4000 word response on page three was repeatedly asking for us to give the New Republic an E-Web without ever really saying what it is about the E-Web that's so vital for the New Republic to get. Several of us have responded to that as well, multiple times in multiple posts.
Just because you don't like our responses or agree with them doesn't mean we aren't responding. We've given reasons why the possible E-Web "equivalents" you've mentioned for the NR wouldn't fit in very well, but you haven't given any actual reason why they need one in the first place. All you've really said is "why not" and "it would be nice".
1.Problem(kinda)
IR has E-Webs, would be nice if other factions got equivalents
"Would be nice" isn't really an argument for them, especially when people have pointed out why the suggested alternatives for the NR would be imbalanced.
In your next post on the subject:
Do you have any better ideas then BESIDES only the imps should get them.
You have never said why it's such a bad thing that only the Remnant has E-Webs. Should we give the Remnant Jedi and snipers as well? Or maybe an airspeeder? The NR has those things, so why shouldn't the IR? The only reasons you've given that the other factions need these "E-Web equivalents" is that the IR has an E-Web, which isn't sufficient. We don't have the resources or the build bar space to throw in another infantry unit, especially one as complex as the E-Web, just because it would be nice. The other factions are at no disadvantage because the IR has them, not every faction needs to have the same unit. I've said this multiple times.
Do you have any better ideas then BESIDES only the imps should get them. And yes, I am very aware of the camels. My whole idea was to make infantry play a BIGGER role in this mod. I have been getting very mixed reactions to all my ideas. That is where I am coming from. And it appears that infantry will be getting even weaker in 2.0 thanks to the removal of take-cover. That's why I wanted a stronger special forces unit. This is why I want E-Web equivalents. To make up for that deficiency. I want people to use infantry when invading planets, not just defending them. I cant think of anything else to say.
There isn't a deficiency though. And adding more "commando" units does not make infantry better. The units you've been suggesting are entirely anti-infantry. A flamethrower will not be effective against tanks, only against infantry. A light repeater will not be effective against tanks, only against infantry. Adding an infnatry unit which would be used entirely for anti infantry purposes does not make infantry more useful, it makes them easier to kill.
To the specific "equivalents" you suggested (which has already been adequately addressed in the post right after yours, to my mind): As Yutpaeksi said, the difference between E-Webs and repeaters/flamethrowers is in the deployment. If the units are running around with light repeaters like that, it's gonna be overpowered. With E-Webs they have to come to you, with the portable flamethrowers and repeaters like what you're suggesting then they can be used primarily offensively, and in that case infantry would be even less of a factor in combat because these single individual commando units would be able to destroy multiple squads of them. Sure it makes a single-high value infantry unit, but that just means there's even less of a reason to use regular infantry except as damage soaks to stop your commandos (being used as the primary infantry) from getting one-shotted by a turret.
Basically, what's the difference in effectiveness between EotH's flametank and a commando holding the same flamethrower? You can see the problems that would pose.
For a shotgun, you're essentially asking for a short range unit that can still only hit a tiny amounts of targets at a time. Sure one shot kills the enemy, but that's basically already the case. Unless they had huge bumps to their health, these would just get mowed down on their way to a target. If you're asking for new commando type units because the Jedi are too short ranged, then imagine Jedi with less helth, no health regen, and no ability to deflect shots.
Is anyone still reading this thread? I still want an answer to my questions that are mentioned above. (to self)No one is reading this thread anymore Jeremy, just stop trying.
I spent the better part of my thursday night specifically responding to your posts. If you're going to claim you're just being ignored now, that's just disrespectful and dishonest.
If you want to claim the New Republic is at a disadvantage, you need to actually back that up.
If you want the NR to get an E-Web equivalent to the point that you're willing to act like it's that urgent and that important, you need a better reason than just "the IR has one" or "it would be nice". Those aren't sufficient reasons to spend that much time and that many resources on a unit when we have so much other stuff we could be working on. Other than it being actually necessary for balance, if it was just a matter of "it might be cool", then it's something we'll either be able to get to or we won't; something we'll either have the resources to make or we won't.
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I spent the better part of my thursday night specifically responding to your posts. If you're going to claim you're just being ignored now, that's just disrespectful and dishonest.
I'm not claiming, or saying, this thread is being ignored, that was merely meant to be said jokingly. I know that everyone who has posted on this thread has spent valuable parts of their lives trying to respond to each other. I did not mean to be disrespectful in any way, and if it came of that I was disrespectful I am truly sorry as I hate disrespectful people.
And yes, I know have noticed that you have all responded to my ideas, and the other peoples ideas and I thank you all for it. Since all the points in this entire thread have been met I see why no on is posting on it anymore. And btw, when I said light repeaters I was just think that it would have 1.5x the normal fire rate, not E-Web fire rate and firepower. *sigh* I guess there never was a need to add commandos, as they would not have a roll to fill.
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I just realized why the NR should have some form of anti-infantry unit(like E-Webs). I can not think of one anti infantry unit/crowd control unit that the New Republic fields. The Hand has flame tanks, the Empire has E-Webs, I'm sure the Penstar has something. Artillery units don't count as they can only fire when stationary. I haven't played 2.0 yet, but I don't think they added a crowd control unit. Unless everyone counts T-2B's or if the new Rebel Armored Freerunner(the one with the guns, not the transport always get their names confused) as one. Now I think I have a reason to preach an E-Web equivalent. Maybe an infantry squad with less people but re-skinned/modeled weapons and projectiles. I'd say 60% less people, 45% greater fire rate and maybe 30-45% more damage? Maybe? Or am I just going mental and can't see they clearly have an anti-infantry unit.
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E-Webs can only fire when stationary. And there is no better anti-infantry unit than the T2-B tank.
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I just realized why the NR should have some form of anti-infantry unit(like E-Webs). I can not think of one anti infantry unit/crowd control unit that the New Republic fields. The Hand has flame tanks, the Empire has E-Webs, I'm sure the Penstar has something. Artillery units don't count as they can only fire when stationary. I haven't played 2.0 yet, but I don't think they added a crowd control unit. Unless everyone counts T-2B's or if the new Rebel Armored Freerunner(the one with the guns, not the transport always get their names confused) as one. Now I think I have a reason to preach an E-Web equivalent. Maybe an infantry squad with less people but re-skinned/modeled weapons and projectiles. I'd say 60% less people, 45% greater fire rate and maybe 30-45% more damage? Maybe? Or am I just going mental and can't see they clearly have an anti-infantry unit.
As tmiller said, the T2-Bs already are fantastic anti-infantry. But give 2.0 a try, and specifically field some armored freerunners and T1-Bs. They're cheap, fast, and have very good firing rates that wreck infantry.
Note that the IR lacks an equivalent of the T2-B. The closest would be the AT-STs or AT-PTs, both of which are slower and don't run on repulsorlifts (depriving them of some mobility on water-heavy maps). But even then the T2-B is shielded, which lets you use some more hit and run tactics.
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As tmiller said, the T2-Bs already are fantastic anti-infantry. But give 2.0 a try, and specifically field some armored freerunners and T1-Bs. They're cheap, fast, and have very good firing rates that wreck infantry.
Note that the IR lacks an equivalent of the T2-B. The closest would be the AT-STs or AT-PTs, both of which are slower and don't run on repulsorlifts (depriving them of some mobility on water-heavy maps). But even then the T2-B is shielded, which lets you use some more hit and run tactics.
Thanks for the input. Just tryed out 2.0 and it is fun. Now I have to find a reason to add in those repeater infiltrators.
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Alright I still have ideas for infantry units. Now since Corey said they couldn't remodel, these all just involve new weapons models and projectiles which he said they could do. Note: I am not good with cannon so please tell me if these are not cannon. Also these are for the New Republic only. If you want some for a dif faction, go make a thread for it.
1) A new chain-gun trooper. If you've played any battlefront you know what I am talking about. It could be a remodel of the Plex troopers rocket launcher. They would need to be setup to fire(15% less time then E-Webs to keep with the NR hit and run tactics) but they would do less damage to infantry(30% less) but more damage to light vehicles (15%) so that way the can target them, unlike Plex who have a hard time hitting fast moving vehicles. They could also have two per squad and two squads per company for balance.
2)Artillery comes with a basic squad or two of infantry except they only get three members per squad. Artillery can have a hard time hitting infantry at close range so having a squad would help this deficiency.
3) Add an infiltrators with a regular blaster rifle. I'm a HUGE fan of this idea ever since Corey said it was possible. Nit like a guy running around with an E-Web, just an infiltrator who has a blaster rifle, and maybe no thermal det ability to balance it.
4) A commando unit/ Katarn Commandos. Yes I know we have been over this, but I think its a good idea. A four to five man squad with more health and damage but cost, lets say, 650 credits.Now I' not expecting them to win every gun fight, but maybe the ability to take on two infantry squads and win but only have one, very injured man remaining. No need for new models, they could just look like regular infantry. And Katarn Commandos or, Elite Squadron was it, could be they hero form. More people per squad but if they all die, they don't come back. and with all hero, slightly more health/damage/speed. Oh, and the reg commando unit could be two squads of four to five men per company. Also make them build able at infiltrator academies.
5) Heavily armored juggernauts. They could be very slow, one per company and have a flamethrower or flechett(?) rifle and have more health and cost 950 credits. This is in here because it can be and is just a fun idea.=P
If there are ANY canon issues with these please inform me and I would like to hear your feedback. Also I am hellbent on a new infantry unit for the New Republic if you couldn't tell. =P
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Does anyone like these ideas?
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2)Artillery comes with a basic squad or two of infantry except they only get three members per squad. Artillery can have a hard time hitting infantry at close range so having a squad would help this deficiency.
This seems rather pointless. If you want to guard your artillery with infantry, bring along an infantry squad.
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1) A new chain-gun trooper. If you've played any battlefront you know what I am talking about. It could be a remodel of the Plex troopers rocket launcher. They would need to be setup to fire(15% less time then E-Webs to keep with the NR hit and run tactics) but they would do less damage to infantry(30% less) but more damage to light vehicles (15%) so that way the can target them, unlike Plex who have a hard time hitting fast moving vehicles. They could also have two per squad and two squads per company for balance.
I don't really get why a chaingun would need deployment, or really what the difference would be in practice between this and the repeater.
2)Artillery comes with a basic squad or two of infantry except they only get three members per squad. Artillery can have a hard time hitting infantry at close range so having a squad would help this deficiency.
That kind of misses the point of Artillery. They're meant to be long range, and that deficiency is what balances them, along with their deployment.
3) Add an infiltrators with a regular blaster rifle. I'm a HUGE fan of this idea ever since Corey said it was possible. Nit like a guy running around with an E-Web, just an infiltrator who has a blaster rifle, and maybe no thermal det ability to balance it.
So, practically just a regular NR soldier bt with more health, really.
4) A commando unit/ Katarn Commandos. Yes I know we have been over this, but I think its a good idea. A four to five man squad with more health and damage but cost, lets say, 650 credits.Now I' not expecting them to win every gun fight, but maybe the ability to take on two infantry squads and win but only have one, very injured man remaining. No need for new models, they could just look like regular infantry. And Katarn Commandos or, Elite Squadron was it, could be they hero form. More people per squad but if they all die, they don't come back. and with all hero, slightly more health/damage/speed. Oh, and the reg commando unit could be two squads of four to five men per company. Also make them build able at infiltrator academies.
The Katarn Commandos were a specific group of people, they weren't multiple units so building them would be kind of like making a building unit called "Rogue Squadron" with multiple of them available. As for generic commandos in general, we've already covered this. That's what the infiltrators are. The NR doesn't need a stronger version of regular infantry squads. They also don't need more infantry heroes, or heroes in general. There isn't even room for them on the hero bar as it is.
5) Heavily armored juggernauts. They could be very slow, one per company and have a flamethrower or flechett(?) rifle and have more health and cost 950 credits. This is in here because it can be and is just a fun idea.=P
Nothing like this exists.
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I don't really get why a chaingun would need deployment, or really what the difference would be in practice between this and the repeater.
That kind of misses the point of Artillery. They're meant to be long range, and that deficiency is what balances them, along with their deployment.
So, practically just a regular NR soldier bt with more health, really.
The Katarn Commandos were a specific group of people, they weren't multiple units so building them would be kind of like making a building unit called "Rogue Squadron" with multiple of them available. As for generic commandos in general, we've already covered this. That's what the infiltrators are. The NR doesn't need a stronger version of regular infantry squads. They also don't need more infantry heroes, or heroes in general. There isn't even room for them on the hero bar as it is.
Nothing like this exists.
Good news every, Corey is right. Still it fun trying to think of new units. I cant even think of anymore. Why, well I've been playing 2.0 and it feels like infantry have been buffed. If they haven't, please don't tell me as it would stop the placebo effect. BTW, specialist feel like they have little health and I know why, it's because they are medics and NOT front line troops. That is all.