Better Infantry units for the New Republic

[yutpaeksi]

Yeah, I know, it just rubs me the wrong way when everyone makes fun of them. I think that Stormtroopers should at least be stronger than Rebel soldiers, since they are more heavily armored after all.

Sounds like you're a fan of Allegiance and Choices of One. I agree wholeheartedly.

[Zeron]

Stormtrooper armor helps defend against environmental hazards, physical weaponry, and low-grade blaster fire. Against military-grade blasters it does absolutely nothing. As seen by Han Solo's illegal heavy-grade pistol easily penetrating and killing stormtroopers.

[ArcHeavyGunner]

Arc, I think you're misunderstanding the role and functionality of the E-web units. They're essentially movable anti-infantry turrets. That means they're primarily a defensive unit. This fits the IR war machine, a meticulous and somewhat slow powerhouse. It's not a unit that really fits in with the other armies' style.

Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with that, what you're proposing here for each side, wouldn't serve anywhere near the same purpose except for maybe the flamethrowers. A light repeater, like the SAW, would either end up being too much like the E-web (i.e. slow and including a deployment time) or it would be vastly overpowered for an infantry. The reason why is that all blaster bolts in the game are already very effective against infantry (you don't need to hit 4-5 times to kill each man). A unit running around with a crazy high rate of fire would be TOO effective against opposing infantry. That's why the E-webs have to be balanced by lack of mobility. For a mobile unit, you already have many anti-infantry vehicles already in the game. Now you could say that having infantry that can do that too is good for garrisoning in bunkers, but when in bunkers, regular infantry already fire seemingly nonstop coherent beams of light that wipe out approaching infantry.

A shotgunner, while an interesting idea, would also be very difficult in this game, and as you may or may not have noticed, doesn't really exist in the GFFA. The probable reason why is that blaster rifles already pack a lot of punch against other infantry. It's a LASER, it burns big holes THROUGH people. A shorter range weapon with more killing power would actually be a real disadvantage. They'd be slaughtered before they can close to range. You would have to buff them to be armored so that they can even get close enough. Even then, once they get close enough, what exactly would a laser shotgun DO that a blaster rifle or carbine can't? You could make it a more powerful weapon but in the game that wouldn't be any more useful against other infantry, it might help against vehicles, but that's what plex infantry is for, and they would have much better range. Now a flechette weapon is a better approximation, with an area-of-effect attack, something that can say kill an entire opposing infantry squad in a single blast. Then you'd have balance issues (see flamethrower below).

A flamethrower unit might be the only one that fits. But in the vanilla game, Boba Fett's flamethrower was a powerful area-of-effect wearpon and could slaughter infantry squads sent after one lone hero. If that was a regular mobile infantry weapon it would be overpowered. No other infantry would stand a chance if it was of equal range to a blaster rifle. Now you could make it a deployable infantry unit like the E-web, but I'm not so sure that makes sense and the EotH already has flame tanks. If you haven't noticed the TR team has done a great job of making the EotH a mobile, flexible fighting force (hence the lack of buildable turrets). A fixed defensive unit like that doesn't fit into that philosophy, whereas a Phalanx commando, a highly capable Chiss soldier trained to operate independently, fits much better.

I like these ideas, they're very fun combat ideas and while this sort of infantry-centric type combat would fit in say, Relic's Company of Heroes, it's tougher in a star wars game centered around crazy futuristic weaponry and vehicles. For Christ's sake, they have giant walking armored camels with fricking lasers on their heads!

Do you have any better ideas then BESIDES only the imps should get them. And yes, I am very aware of the camels. My whole idea was to make infantry play a BIGGER role in this mod. I have been getting very mixed reactions to all my ideas. That is where I am coming from. And it appears that infantry will be getting even weaker in 2.0 thanks to the removal of take-cover. That's why I wanted a stronger special forces unit. This is why I want E-Web equivalents. To make up for that deficiency. I want people to use infantry when invading planets, not just defending them. I cant think of anything else to say.

[Slornie]

I want people to use infantry when invading planets, not just defending them. I cant think of anything else to say.

People will need to use infantry. They are necessary to capture reinforcement points (2.0 reverts to the distributed pop. system found in vanilla), abandoned structures (those sensor arrays and turbolasers can come in very handy), as well as bunkers and build pads.

[tlmiller]

People will need to use infantry. They are necessary to capture reinforcement points (2.0 reverts to the distributed pop. system found in vanilla), abandoned structures (those sensor arrays and turbolasers can come in very handy), as well as bunkers and build pads.

Yup, and because of the need for infantry in 2.0, they won't be considered disposable like they were in 1.3 most of the time.

[JC123]

Yup, and because of the need for infantry in 2.0, they won't be considered disposable like they were in 1.3 most of the time.

Which leads me to wonder, since sometimes I consider long ground battles tedious, if the auto-resolve has been altered for 2.0?  Will I lose troops horribly every time or have other factors changed?  In 1.3 I just send 30X infantry and auto resolve.  Floods worked.

Yeah, I know, I'm an evil Imperial who doesn't care for my troops.  I just love space battles.

[tlmiller]

Sadly, autoresolve still blows.  I don't think there's ANYTHING the modding team can do to help that.  Although, I actually enjoy using the PA for ground battles now.  I still don't like them with anyone else.

[JC123]

Sadly, autoresolve still blows.  I don't think there's ANYTHING the modding team can do to help that.  Although, I actually enjoy using the PA for ground battles now.  I still don't like them with anyone else.

That's good to hear, because the PA is looking like my favorite faction for 2.0

I'll also remember to avoid auto-resolving anything that contains hero units.

Just to keep the thread on topic:  Removing the cover option for infantry is going to make expanding the reinforcement points quite a challenge.  Who knows, perhaps that will make land battles more interesting.  Otherwise, I'll bomber spam.

[Corey]

None of the testers have access to this stuff in their builds yet, but I've been playing around with ground stuff a lot in the last week or so. Movement speeds for infantry have doubled (0.8 to 1.6) and vehicles have all increased somewhere between 20% and 50% as well. Line of sight has also been doubled for all units. Garrisons are also not unlimited now (except for infantry), which have been one of the biggest tedium-increasing factors in ground battles, I find. There's nothing worse than making all of this progress in ground battles, then it doesn't fucking matter at all because here comes the exact same units you just killed. Now you get two cycles of them, then it's over.

I don't think there's ANYTHING the modding team can do to help that.

There isn't. We can decide the values the game's using for each unit, but beyond that all of the equations are effectively untouchable.

Do you have any better ideas then BESIDES only the imps should get them.

What's the problem with just the Remnant having them?

My whole idea was to make infantry play a BIGGER role in this mod.

Infantry do play a big role, and not just for capturing RPs. I use them a lot for scouting, they're easily the best way to take out turbolaser towers (which is a big deal), a company of them can still take out a light tank on their own. Infantry are already actually the only unit of any type that are absolutely necessary. They're completely viable.

[tlmiller]

None of the testers have access to this stuff in their builds yet, but I've been playing around with ground stuff a lot in the last week or so. Movement speeds for infantry have doubled (0.8 to 1.6) and vehicles have all increased somewhere between 20% and 50% as well. Line of sight has also been doubled for all units. Garrisons are also not unlimited now (except for infantry), which have been one of the biggest tedium-increasing factors in ground battles, I find. There's nothing worse than making all of this progress in ground battles, then it doesn't fucking matter at all because here comes the exact same units you just killed. Now you get two cycles of them, then it's over.

I dare say that one change will make land battles fun for the factions.

[Revanchist]

Stormtrooper armor helps defend against environmental hazards, physical weaponry, and low-grade blaster fire. Against military-grade blasters it does absolutely nothing. As seen by Han Solo's illegal heavy-grade pistol easily penetrating and killing stormtroopers.

I quote Wookieepedia: The armor significantly reduced damage to the wearer from a blaster bolt.

Enough said.

[Zeron]

I quote Wookieepedia: The armor significantly reduced damage to the wearer from a blaster bolt.

Enough said.

I quote Wookiepedia: Although it could be penetrated by a direct blaster bolt. It disperses the blast enough that low-powered civilian blasters would have little effect. However heavier blasters can easily punch through. Every time a stormtrooper has taken a direct hit they've gone down. It might not necessarily kill them (shown in the X-Wing series where a pilot takes a direct hit in stormie armor and is severely injured but not dead), but they're out of combat regardless.

[ArcHeavyGunner]

So is there any chance, even a remote chance, of adding repeater infiltrators or E-Web equivalents of some form to at least one other faction. I always thought the New Republic was meant to be played defensively so they could get the E-Web variant. Is anyone still reading this thread? I still want an answer to my questions that are mentioned above. (to self)No one is reading this thread anymore Jeremy, just stop trying.

[Corey]

Yutpaeksi covered pretty well why a repeater infiltrator like what you're suggesting wouldn't really work, it'd be way more powerful than the E-Web which fits a pretty niche purpose as it is.

What questions are we not answering, exactly? The only things you've asked about since my 4000 word response on page three was repeatedly asking for us to give the New Republic an E-Web without ever really saying what it is about the E-Web that's so vital for the New Republic to get. Several of us have responded to that as well, multiple times in multiple posts.

Just because you don't like our responses or agree with them doesn't mean we aren't responding. We've given reasons why the possible E-Web "equivalents" you've mentioned for the NR wouldn't fit in very well, but you haven't given any actual reason why they need one in the first place. All you've really said is "why not" and "it would be nice".

1.Problem(kinda)
IR has E-Webs, would be nice if other factions got equivalents

"Would be nice" isn't really an argument for them, especially when people have pointed out why the suggested alternatives for the NR would be imbalanced.

In your next post on the subject:

Do you have any better ideas then BESIDES only the imps should get them.

You have never said why it's such a bad thing that only the Remnant has E-Webs. Should we give the Remnant Jedi and snipers as well? Or maybe an airspeeder? The NR has those things, so why shouldn't the IR? The only reasons you've given that the other factions need these "E-Web equivalents" is that the IR has an E-Web, which isn't sufficient. We don't have the resources or the build bar space to throw in another infantry unit, especially one as complex as the E-Web, just because it would be nice. The other factions are at no disadvantage because the IR has them, not every faction needs to have the same unit. I've said this multiple times.

Do you have any better ideas then BESIDES only the imps should get them. And yes, I am very aware of the camels. My whole idea was to make infantry play a BIGGER role in this mod. I have been getting very mixed reactions to all my ideas. That is where I am coming from. And it appears that infantry will be getting even weaker in 2.0 thanks to the removal of take-cover. That's why I wanted a stronger special forces unit. This is why I want E-Web equivalents. To make up for that deficiency. I want people to use infantry when invading planets, not just defending them. I cant think of anything else to say.

There isn't a deficiency though. And adding more "commando" units does not make infantry better. The units you've been suggesting are entirely anti-infantry. A flamethrower will not be effective against tanks, only against infantry. A light repeater will not be effective against tanks, only against infantry. Adding an infnatry unit which would be used entirely for anti infantry purposes does not make infantry more useful, it makes them easier to kill.

To the specific "equivalents" you suggested (which has already been adequately addressed in the post right after yours, to my mind): As Yutpaeksi said, the difference between E-Webs and repeaters/flamethrowers is in the deployment. If the units are running around with light repeaters like that, it's gonna be overpowered. With E-Webs they have to come to you, with the portable flamethrowers and repeaters like what you're suggesting then they can be used primarily offensively, and in that case infantry would be even less of a factor in combat because these single individual commando units would be able to destroy multiple squads of them. Sure it makes a single-high value infantry unit, but that just means there's even less of a reason to use regular infantry except as damage soaks to stop your commandos (being used as the primary infantry) from getting one-shotted by a turret.

Basically, what's the difference in effectiveness between EotH's flametank and a commando holding the same flamethrower? You can see the problems that would pose.

For a shotgun, you're essentially asking for a short range unit that can still only hit a tiny amounts of targets at a time. Sure one shot kills the enemy, but that's basically already the case. Unless they had huge bumps to their health, these would just get mowed down on their way to a target. If you're asking for new commando type units because the Jedi are too short ranged, then imagine Jedi with less helth, no health regen, and no ability to deflect shots.

Is anyone still reading this thread? I still want an answer to my questions that are mentioned above. (to self)No one is reading this thread anymore Jeremy, just stop trying.

I spent the better part of my thursday night specifically responding to your posts. If you're going to claim you're just being ignored now, that's just disrespectful and dishonest.

If you want to claim the New Republic is at a disadvantage, you need to actually back that up.

If you want the NR to get an E-Web equivalent to the point that you're willing to act like it's that urgent and that important, you need a better reason than just "the IR has one" or "it would be nice". Those aren't sufficient reasons to spend that much time and that many resources on a unit when we have so much other stuff we could be working on. Other than it being actually necessary for balance, if it was just a matter of "it might be cool", then it's something we'll either be able to get to or we won't; something we'll either have the resources to make or we won't.

[ArcHeavyGunner]

I spent the better part of my thursday night specifically responding to your posts. If you're going to claim you're just being ignored now, that's just disrespectful and dishonest.

I'm not claiming, or saying, this thread is being ignored, that was merely meant to be said jokingly. I know that everyone who has posted on this thread has spent valuable parts of their lives trying to respond to each other. I did not mean to be disrespectful in any way, and if it came of that I was disrespectful I am truly sorry as I hate disrespectful people.

And yes, I know have noticed that you have all responded to my ideas, and the other peoples ideas and I thank you all for it. Since all the points in this entire thread have been met I see why no on is posting on it anymore. And btw, when I said light repeaters I was just think  that it would have 1.5x the normal fire rate, not E-Web fire rate and firepower. *sigh* I guess there never was a need to add commandos, as they would not have a roll to fill.

[ArcHeavyGunner]

I just realized why the NR should have some form of anti-infantry unit(like E-Webs). I can not think of one anti infantry unit/crowd control unit that the New Republic fields. The Hand has flame tanks, the Empire has E-Webs, I'm sure the Penstar has something. Artillery units don't count as they can only fire when stationary. I haven't played 2.0 yet, but I don't think they added a crowd control unit. Unless everyone counts T-2B's or if the new Rebel Armored Freerunner(the one with the guns, not the transport always get their names confused) as one. Now I think I have a reason to preach an E-Web equivalent. Maybe an infantry squad with less people but re-skinned/modeled weapons and projectiles. I'd say 60% less people, 45% greater fire rate and maybe 30-45% more damage? Maybe? Or am I just going mental and can't see they clearly have an anti-infantry unit.

[tlmiller]

E-Webs can only fire when stationary.  And there is no better anti-infantry unit than the T2-B tank.

[yutpaeksi]

I just realized why the NR should have some form of anti-infantry unit(like E-Webs). I can not think of one anti infantry unit/crowd control unit that the New Republic fields. The Hand has flame tanks, the Empire has E-Webs, I'm sure the Penstar has something. Artillery units don't count as they can only fire when stationary. I haven't played 2.0 yet, but I don't think they added a crowd control unit. Unless everyone counts T-2B's or if the new Rebel Armored Freerunner(the one with the guns, not the transport always get their names confused) as one. Now I think I have a reason to preach an E-Web equivalent. Maybe an infantry squad with less people but re-skinned/modeled weapons and projectiles. I'd say 60% less people, 45% greater fire rate and maybe 30-45% more damage? Maybe? Or am I just going mental and can't see they clearly have an anti-infantry unit.

As tmiller said, the T2-Bs already are fantastic anti-infantry. But give 2.0 a try, and specifically field some armored freerunners and T1-Bs. They're cheap, fast, and have very good firing rates that wreck infantry.

Note that the IR lacks an equivalent of the T2-B. The closest would be the AT-STs or AT-PTs, both of which are slower and don't run on repulsorlifts (depriving them of some mobility on water-heavy maps). But even then the T2-B is shielded, which lets you use some more hit and run tactics.

[ArcHeavyGunner]

As tmiller said, the T2-Bs already are fantastic anti-infantry. But give 2.0 a try, and specifically field some armored freerunners and T1-Bs. They're cheap, fast, and have very good firing rates that wreck infantry.

Note that the IR lacks an equivalent of the T2-B. The closest would be the AT-STs or AT-PTs, both of which are slower and don't run on repulsorlifts (depriving them of some mobility on water-heavy maps). But even then the T2-B is shielded, which lets you use some more hit and run tactics.

Thanks for the input. Just tryed out 2.0 and it is fun. Now I have to find a reason to add in those repeater infiltrators.

[ArcHeavyGunner]

Alright I still have ideas for infantry units. Now since Corey said they couldn't remodel, these all just involve new weapons models and projectiles which he said they could do. Note: I am not good with cannon so please tell me if these are not cannon. Also these are for the New Republic only. If you want some for a dif faction, go make a thread for it.

1) A new chain-gun trooper. If you've played any battlefront you know what I am talking about. It could be a remodel of the Plex troopers rocket launcher. They would need to be setup to fire(15% less time then E-Webs to keep with the NR hit and run tactics) but they would do less damage to infantry(30% less) but more damage to light vehicles (15%) so that way the can target them, unlike Plex who have a hard time hitting fast moving vehicles. They could also have two per squad and two squads per company for balance.

2)Artillery comes with a basic squad or two of infantry except they only get three members per squad. Artillery can have a hard time hitting infantry at close range so having a squad would help this deficiency.

3) Add an infiltrators with a regular blaster rifle. I'm a HUGE fan of this idea ever since Corey said it was possible. Nit like a guy running around with an E-Web, just an infiltrator who has a blaster rifle, and maybe no thermal det ability to balance it.

4) A commando unit/ Katarn Commandos. Yes I know we have been over this, but I think its a good idea. A four to five man squad with more health and damage but cost, lets say, 650 credits.Now I' not expecting them to win every gun fight, but maybe the ability to take on two infantry squads and win but only have one, very injured man remaining. No need for new models, they could just look like regular infantry. And Katarn Commandos or, Elite Squadron was it, could be they hero form. More people per squad but if they all die, they don't come back. and with all hero, slightly more health/damage/speed. Oh, and the reg commando unit could be two squads of four to five men per company.  Also make them build able at infiltrator academies.

5) Heavily armored juggernauts. They could be very slow, one per company and have a flamethrower or flechett(?) rifle and have more health and cost 950 credits. This is in here because it can be and is just a fun idea.=P

If there are ANY canon issues with these please inform me and I would like to hear your feedback. Also I am hellbent on a new infantry unit for the New Republic if you couldn't tell. =P