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Author Topic: Better Infantry units for the New Republic  (Read 37175 times)

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August 14, 2012, 10:47:35 PMReply #20

Offline ArcHeavyGunner

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2012, 10:47:35 PM »
But should the Infiltrators get some squad mates so they are not lonely?
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August 15, 2012, 12:25:15 AMReply #21

Offline yutpaeksi

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2012, 12:25:15 AM »
I still think that A) Every faction should get an E-Web equivalent and B) the Infiltrators should get a squad of slightly weaker Commandos that are armed with fully automatic blasters. Does anyone agree with me or is my point completely ridiculous and stupid?

I'm going to have to disagree. The IR's army diversity is nice and makes sense, since they had ridiculous resources before the NR rose. The IR's army philosophy is Shock and Awe, hence the AT-ATs and pure overwhelming firepower. This makes them slow, and a force you have to keep cohesive, which makes sense. The IR is also, incidentally probably the best forces when deployed on defense, and this is enhanced by the E-webs. The IR has no infiltrator or commando in the game, and this is great. Although the Noghri are fantasticc...if a bit OP.

The NR is your typical hit and run type of army (see T2-Bs with good speed and regenerating shields), and strategic precision (Infiltrators). You're not meant to play the two armies in the same way. For instance, deploying two companies of T4-Bs and two companies of NR troopers against, say, an AT-AT, an AT-ST company, and two companies of stormtroopers might seem like sort of a fair fight, but it's not. Instead you should probably consider swapping out one company of T4-Bs for T2-Bs that you can run around the AT-AT and use to flank the IR forces.

Giving every side the same sort of forces or equivalents would make this one horrendously boring game. And why should Infiltrators be changed? If you want a squad of troops with automatic weapons, just deploy a damn company of troopers.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 12:45:10 AM by yutpaeksi »
"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
―Han Solo, to Vana Dorja

August 15, 2012, 01:09:20 AMReply #22

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2012, 01:09:20 AM »
Well I meant an equivalent. Not necessarily give them ALL E Webs, but something like mine layers for the NR, sappers for the PA, Mobile build pads for the EotH
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August 15, 2012, 07:12:15 AMReply #23

Offline ArcHeavyGunner

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2012, 07:12:15 AM »
I'm going to have to disagree. The IR's army diversity is nice and makes sense, since they had ridiculous resources before the NR rose. The IR's army philosophy is Shock and Awe, hence the AT-ATs and pure overwhelming firepower. This makes them slow, and a force you have to keep cohesive, which makes sense. The IR is also, incidentally probably the best forces when deployed on defense, and this is enhanced by the E-webs. The IR has no infiltrator or commando in the game, and this is great. Although the Noghri are fantasticc...if a bit OP.

The NR is your typical hit and run type of army (see T2-Bs with good speed and regenerating shields), and strategic precision (Infiltrators). You're not meant to play the two armies in the same way. For instance, deploying two companies of T4-Bs and two companies of NR troopers against, say, an AT-AT, an AT-ST company, and two companies of stormtroopers might seem like sort of a fair fight, but it's not. Instead you should probably consider swapping out one company of T4-Bs for T2-Bs that you can run around the AT-AT and use to flank the IR forces.

Giving every side the same sort of forces or equivalents would make this one horrendously boring game. And why should Infiltrators be changed? If you want a squad of troops with automatic weapons, just deploy a damn company of troopers.
You make a very good point and like Lord Xizer said the should get and equivalent, not all E-Webs, I think I just worded my comment wrong that's all. I also just think that two Infiltrators per company is a little weak. Maybe the addition of two to three more would make them MUCH more effective because right now If your commanding, lets say, your T4-Bs and you have already ordered your infiltrators to flank they could run into ONE anti-infantry turret and get almost completely wiped out. Having two to three more per company would give them better odds and if  you  wanted eight infiltrators with four per company there is no need to waste unit space by landing four infiltrator units instead of two. and if I wanted to land some infantry I would but I would be knowing all to well that they will be instantly killed if I ask 5 squads of Infantry and 3 squads of Plex troopers to take out an AT-ST or 2 that happen to be flanking. The whole idea around the original post was due to the Absolute Corruption Mod. If you've played it, would would know that on certain planets you can build Alliance SpecForce that are better infantry because ALL the infantry in that mod are cannon fodder. I just thought that it would be nice if every faction got some sort of squad of commandos not just the Imperials. And in my opinion, no, two little snipers who know how to use grenades don't count as commandos even if they have learned to sprint unlike a;most every other infantry unit. That was my though and I still think it is a good one.
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August 15, 2012, 09:50:00 AMReply #24

Offline StarWarsSupremeCommander

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2012, 09:50:00 AM »
IMO, the NR is already OP with infantry. Jedi, inflitrators, and they have tons of ground heroes. Getting something long-ranged will make IR lose out, and make the EoTH commandos look weaker, when they are supposed to be the ace infantry(and no, they are not to be countered do easily. NR lack the brains to do so, not to mention that EoTH is not much of a threat as long as it stays in its Unknown reigons)

August 15, 2012, 01:27:32 PMReply #25

Offline Willhelm

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2012, 01:27:32 PM »
Personally i do think the infantry are already diverse from the others as is, The Chiss have rocket Bikes, empire has e-webs and the NR has Jedi. and well for the commandos adding units too their squads would make them tougher... I.E harder to kill, that could unbalance some things.. and possibly make them OP, as commandos are kinda ment to be powerful but fragile units are they not?


As for infantry being able to garrison walls and towers, Its seems very able to fit into the game mechanics... towers already look like bunkers so simply make the tower into a bunker, just elevated, and for walls you could possibly do about the same or something very similar, also grenade launchers in squads would be nice to simply show how infantry arnt entirely useless against any vehicle like they are in real life?


Im also kinda surprised Corey or someone hasn't anything to say on the topic yet....

August 15, 2012, 02:09:45 PMReply #26

Offline ArcHeavyGunner

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2012, 02:09:45 PM »
IMO, the NR is already OP with infantry. Jedi, infiltrators, and they have tons of ground heroes. Getting something long-ranged will make IR lose out, and make the EoTH commandos look weaker, when they are supposed to be the ace infantry(and no, they are not to be countered do easily. NR lack the brains to do so, not to mention that EoTH is not much of a threat as long as it stays in its Unknown regions)
While you make a good point I have two problems with that. 1)I mean who really uses heroes all that much anyway as we are all afraid of the being killed. 2) Like I said in a much earlier post I was taking about a long range equivalent to jedi. And besides aren't jedi only available in era 5

Personally i do think the infantry are already diverse from the others as is, The Chiss have rocket Bikes, empire has e-webs and the NR has Jedi. and well for the commandos adding units too their squads would make them tougher... I.E harder to kill, that could unbalance some things.. and possibly make them OP, as commandos are kinda meant to be powerful but fragile units are they not?
In an earlier post I mentioned ALL of the factions(well the playable ones anyway) getting an upgrade to Infantry past Era 3 to make the commandos, and well that isn't A) canon for the New Republic as their ground force was decimated and B) probably wouldn't happen in any life just replacing your standard infantry with commandos, I still think it should happen because it would show the commanders (you and me) realizing that with all these new tanks and what not, standard infantry isn't cutting it. So now we have a reason for the commandos units. On top of it, when I was ground battling the IR, they called in a bunch (like 9 or 10) minor ground heroes who were just very powerful stormies. So, I ask, why can only the imperials only have the ability to call in what appeared to be commandos. Every faction should be able to so the IR isn't IMO more overpowered, since they have some, if not the best, Army and almost certainly the best Navy. And yes, squads of infantry should have grenade launchers just like how there were some in the vanilla game.
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August 15, 2012, 02:56:48 PMReply #27

Offline Corey

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2012, 02:56:48 PM »
Quote
Im also kinda surprised Corey or someone hasn't anything to say on the topic yet....
I've been reading. I do have stuff to say, just haven't said it yet.
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August 15, 2012, 04:11:26 PMReply #28

Offline Slornie

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2012, 04:11:26 PM »
And besides aren't jedi only available in era 5
Eras 4 and 5.  The Yavin Praxeum was established shortly before Daala emerged from the Maw.

In an earlier post I mentioned ALL of the factions(well the playable ones anyway) getting an upgrade to Infantry past Era 3 to make the commandos ... I still think it should happen because it would show the commanders (you and me) realizing that with all these new tanks and what not, standard infantry isn't cutting it. So now we have a reason for the commandos units.
I'm not entirely convinced of the logic behind this.  Since we have an era-based system there isn't really any difference between the tanks available in Era 1 and those available in Era 5. Sure there are a few changes in line up, but it isn't like vanilla where you suddenly ended up fighting against AT-AT's after ages with just AT-ST's.  Commando units should provide a slightly different advantage to regular infantry, not serve as a more powerful replacement.

On top of it, when I was ground battling the IR, they called in a bunch (like 9 or 10) minor ground heroes who were just very powerful stormies. So, I ask, why can only the imperials only have the ability to call in what appeared to be commandos.
I assume you're actually talking about the Empire of the Hand here, with their Hand of Judgement and Aurek Seven squads.  These are actually major hero units, not purchasable commando minor heroes.

As for infantry being able to garrison walls and towers, Its seems very able to fit into the game mechanics... towers already look like bunkers so simply make the tower into a bunker, just elevated, and for walls you could possibly do about the same or something very similar
I've always liked the idea of garrisoning the turbolaser towers, particularly the capturable ones (so the infantry you leave behind don't just stand around outside and maybe accidentally get sent elsewhere and lose you the turret).

Im also kinda surprised Corey or someone hasn't anything to say on the topic yet....
We don't want to spoil your fun debating this sort of thing. ;)
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August 15, 2012, 05:34:51 PMReply #29

Offline ArcHeavyGunner

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2012, 05:34:51 PM »
I assume you're actually talking about the Empire of the Hand here, with their Hand of Judgement and Aurek Seven squads.  These are actually major hero units, not purchasable commando minor heroes.
No I'm almost positive it was the empire as it was at the beginning of Art of War on Yavin and there are no EotH planets even remotely close to that.

I'm not entirely convinced of the logic behind this.  Since we have an era-based system there isn't really any difference between the tanks available in Era 1 and those available in Era 5. Sure there are a few changes in line up, but it isn't like vanilla where you suddenly ended up fighting against AT-AT's after ages with just AT-ST's.  Commando units should provide a slightly different advantage to regular infantry, not serve as a more powerful replacement.
My logic is very good IMO. I was thinking of how after Era 3 or 4 the Nebulon-B in replaced with the Corona. And while it doesn't have to be commandos it could be up armored infantry suggesting that the factions are replacing older weapons and armor with new and improved variants. I don't actually remember why I said replace the with commandos. But I still think Infiltrators should get so squad mates and every faction should have an equivalent to the E-Web, not just them all getting E-Webs. Some suggested mortar teams and flamethrowers but I was think more along the lines of light repeaters, mortars or flamethrowers depending on faction. Maybe a light repeater team for the NR, a mortar team for the Penstar, and since the EotH loves fire they can have the flamethrowers. My opinion will not change about this or the Infiltrators getting buddies until a very good point comes up. Although I never thought this thread would get this much attention and since there is so much attention, I'm surprised no one suggested this before me.
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August 15, 2012, 06:34:39 PMReply #30

Offline yutpaeksi

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2012, 06:34:39 PM »
My logic is very good IMO. I was thinking of how after Era 3 or 4 the Nebulon-B in replaced with the Corona. And while it doesn't have to be commandos it could be up armored infantry suggesting that the factions are replacing older weapons and armor with new and improved variants.

The difference is that the team has a canonical reason to replace the Nebulon series with the Corona, that was part of the NR becoming a REAL governing body and realizing it needed modern ships of the line.

What you're talking about, upgrading the role of basic infantry, doesn't make sense for several reasons. In terms of military doctrine, modern infantry today, serves pretty much the SAME purpose it did in WWI. They hold ground, protect the flanks of armor on the front lines, and are used for flanking maneuvers on a battlefield. Progression across eras shouldn't change the role of basic infantry.

Asking for upgrades is another matter, you're talking about overall upgrades to infantry with better armor and weaponry. Well then I'd ask why doesn't the military also upgrade its tanks, walkers, and all other land units to ALSO have better armor and infantry to balance this?

I'm not opposed to getting some better infantry for the NR, I've stated elsewhere that their land forces are the least interesting. But I also very much agree that Jedi is a nice equalizer (yes later eras only, so what? The factions aren't supposed to be perfectly balanced in each era), and the key is the NR's heroes. I don't know why you're not using your heroes more, that's one of the NR's KEY advantages in this mod.

As to your point about infiltrators, why do you want them to get extra members? Deploying a commando unit is supposed to be a tactical choice, sacrificing front line power for a unique tactical precision unit. That's why there's a unit deployment limit, to force you to make tougher choices. Giving you more fighting power per pop doesn't enhance gameplay, what it really does is devalue the player's choices.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 06:49:32 PM by yutpaeksi »
"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
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August 15, 2012, 06:44:11 PMReply #31

Offline Slornie

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2012, 06:44:11 PM »
As to your point about infiltrators, why do you want them to get extra members? Deploying a commando unit is supposed to be a tactical choice, sacrificing front line power for a unique tactical precision unit. That's why there's a unit deployment limit, to force you to make tougher choices. Giving you more fighting power per pop doesn't enhance gameplay, what it really does it devalue the player's choices.
On the other hand with all infantry units being considerably weaker than vanilla (i think this applies to the infiltrator/commando types too), and the standard infantry squads having being made considerably larger than in vanilla, it is possibly a reasonable suggestion that the infiltrator/commando squads should also have a similar increase in number.  Especially since, as Xizer pointed out, a standard commando squad would normally contain between five and eight members.
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August 15, 2012, 06:48:13 PMReply #32

Offline yutpaeksi

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2012, 06:48:13 PM »
On the other hand with all infantry units being considerably weaker than vanilla (i think this applies to the infiltrator/commando types too), and the standard infantry squads having being made considerably larger than in vanilla, it is possibly a reasonable suggestion that the infiltrator/commando squads should also have a similar increase in number.  Especially since, as Xizer pointed out, a standard commando squad would normally contain between five and eight members.

Then buff the health of each infiltrator, giving you more of them doesn't enhance the value of each one. Having five separate infiltrators, in a single company, for me to use to run around the map separately means you don't have to be careful enough with each one. This devalues the unit, makes you take less care when using an elite asset. Also, I really don't want to face 50 infiltrators defending an NR planet. I really really don't...

Also I don't think he's talking about adding extra infiltrators, but rather giving them like...accompanying regular squads of troopers or something else.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 06:51:22 PM by yutpaeksi »
"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
―Han Solo, to Vana Dorja

August 15, 2012, 07:00:15 PMReply #33

Offline Corey

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2012, 07:00:15 PM »
I'm working on a post to respond to the thread as a whole, but just a quick sidenote on the Era 3 infantry upgrade you're suggesting:

If your reasoning for wanting us to implement that change is you feel infantry on the whole are generally useless, why would you do it via an era change thing? Like Slornie said, the era system is not a traditional tech system, and as such those changes and upgrades would not have a single effect on around half of the mod, maybe more. Especially when you're then rationalizing it as a revolution in infantry combat which never happened, and as Xizer said goes explicitly against the canon. If your basic premise for needing these changes is true, and let's grant for the sake of argument that it is, then I would think the solution should be implemented into the whole mod, not just into half of the mod in a way that not only leaves what you perceive to be the problem in any GC that takes place in era 1 or 2, but also at worst contradicts canon and at best creates an unnecessary event in SW history and also adds a massive amount of work to the mod?

I don't think the analogy with the Corona and Nebulon-B situation works here. In that situation, the in-universe Nebulon-B was replaced with the Corona by the New Republic, so we did the same in the proper place in the timeline in the mod. What you're suggesting here would be more like if the Nebulon-B used to be in the whole mod with no alternative canon ships, and then we decided the ship was malfunctioning or not doing its job and instead of addressing that, left the ship in half the mod, and then invented our own ship to replace it then tried to make an in-universe justification for it rather than fixing the root issue.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 07:03:55 PM by Corey »
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August 15, 2012, 07:34:11 PMReply #34

Offline ArcHeavyGunner

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2012, 07:34:11 PM »
Wow...I' overwhelmed with all the good points people have made. It's a good thing that you guys all have good ideas and I like that about this community. Thank you all for your feedback as I can now tell my original idea was quite foolish of me, but as the ideas progressed we have made them better as a whole. But I think we should all agree on at least one or two things. 1) Every faction should have an E-Web equivalent. I have NOT read single reason, game play wise or canon wise as to why ONLY the Empire gets some form of defensive infantry. If you can give me a good reason I sure will appreciate it. 2)The original idea for commando units was foolish idea but a good one. I always forget this mod doesn't use tech systems but Eras instead, and, its in a area of Star Wars history that I'm iffy on so I'm sorry for the canon issues with my posts.

Personally I think infantry should be buffed so that on AT-ST can wipe out an entire company, which we know from the movies and the books is rare If Ewoks can take out several AT-STs shouldn't infantry be able to. The answer in no, and I know why. Balance is the answer , and I understand that, that is why I wanted units to represent the New Republic SpecForce and the other factions equivalent so we can get that idea that not all infantry is hopeless. I'm also pretty sure that, even if the NR Army was decimated, they tried to keep a special forces unit going for special missions. Also, if there was better body armor and Blasters would the Super powers invest in them, similar to how, at the birth of assault rifles, all the super powers dropped their bolt action rifle and picked up assault rifles? So I think the Nebulon to Corona analogy works fine for the reason I just mentioned. I know the Galactic Republic did this for the Clone troopers going from Phase 1 to Phase 2 armor. I know something similar happened in the universe at the time, all we have to do is find it. All I want is infantry that, in all truthfulness, doesn't suck like the Stormtroopers on Endor. And nobody, no matter what faction your on, EotH or Penstar, NR or IR, wants that. As a whole, I think we all want at least have decent infantry that can hold its own hand in a fight. But thank you for all your support and changes of the idea. Oh yeah, tat grenade launcher thing, could that be done?
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August 16, 2012, 01:06:18 AMReply #35

Offline Willhelm

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2012, 01:06:18 AM »
But thank you for all your support and changes of the idea. Oh yeah, tat grenade launcher thing, could that be done?

And the garrisoning walls and towers just to make a little more things that infantry can do than no one else can :D

August 16, 2012, 01:15:13 AMReply #36

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2012, 01:15:13 AM »
And the garrisoning walls and towers just to make a little more things that infantry can do than no one else can :D

This would be most enjoyable, also if walls could offer SOME protection instead of missiles and Turbos most of the time firing through them.
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August 16, 2012, 03:57:35 AMReply #37

Offline StarWarsSupremeCommander

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2012, 03:57:35 AM »
While you make a good point I have two problems with that. 1)I mean who really uses heroes all that much anyway as we are all afraid of the being killed. 2) Like I said in a much earlier post I was taking about a long range equivalent to jedi. And besides aren't jedi only available in era 5
In an earlier post I mentioned ALL of the factions(well the playable ones anyway) getting an upgrade to Infantry past Era 3 to make the commandos, and well that isn't A) canon for the New Republic as their ground force was decimated and B) probably wouldn't happen in any life just replacing your standard infantry with commandos, I still think it should happen because it would show the commanders (you and me) realizing that with all these new tanks and what not, standard infantry isn't cutting it. So now we have a reason for the commandos units. On top of it, when I was ground battling the IR, they called in a bunch (like 9 or 10) minor ground heroes who were just very powerful stormies. So, I ask, why can only the imperials only have the ability to call in what appeared to be commandos. Every faction should be able to so the IR isn't IMO more overpowered, since they have some, if not the best, Army and almost certainly the best Navy. And yes, squads of infantry should have grenade launchers just like how there were some in the vanilla game.

I dsiagree, I use my ground heroes all the time, the fact is that I don't mind losing Kyle, Clighal, Lando, and even luke. The only ones I'm afraid of losing is Han and Chewie, thanks to the fact that they can go to warlord planets and thrash the ground forces while waiting for my larger space fleet to arrive. Imperials have a vehicle emphasis, much like the old republic(see any massive AT-AT like thing that the New Republics have? No, New Republic started as Rebel alliance, whose greatest resource was manpower, not building materials) No, 1st, 'grenades' doesn't exist in Star Wars except for FOC, which goes to show how impratical it was(A pirate faction owns a third of the galaxy and goes around spreading corruption in a control-by-fear empire, yeah, like to see that happen in real life). IF Grenadiers did exist, normal infantry would long have been phased out. And commando units for the IR? As heroes, please, IR has too much machines, it barely needs the infantry.(Let's not forget that IR has the tendacy to flatten infantry)

August 16, 2012, 04:39:49 AMReply #38

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2012, 04:39:49 AM »
The NRs ground heroes can be a devastating force in any invasion.
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

August 16, 2012, 06:21:21 AMReply #39

Offline Newrepublic-woodie

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Re: Better Infantry units for the New Republic
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2012, 06:21:21 AM »
The NRs ground heroes can be a devastating force in any invasion.

Towers and walls would be amazing, like in Command and Conquer.

I also agree mate, solo and chewie are devastating against infantry and up to two squads of light vehicles.

Luke is also brilliant at taking out Noghri warriors and scouts. (Using the invisibility as cover, then throwing his lightsaber).

Overall, standard infantry are quite effective.... they are cheap... and easy to recruit.. and can provide valuable diversions.. or support :)
s.p.wood :D :D

 

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