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Author Topic: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)  (Read 19647 times)

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December 30, 2017, 02:49:56 PMReply #80

Offline Mr.Puerto

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2017, 02:49:56 PM »
I'm totally fine with a Rey/Poe relationship, and I'm somewhat expecting something to happen there just from their introduction at the end of TLJ - it reeked of "nice to meet you, sexy awesome person I've only heard good things about" from both sides.  I don't know that such a relationship is really needed for either of their characters, though, and it's always possible that it will be badly handled, so if they're going to do it they need to make sure it feels right - especially if they go the route of having us come into ep. IX with them already together, rather than letting us see the start of the relationship.

edit: And my last word on the Mark Hamill discussion is simply his own words:



Anyone who wants to call Hamill a liar is free to do so, but I'm done arguing the topic.

Pali, you already know that this isn't a good answer for the people who those accusations they'll think whatever they want to think even if its irrational lol. But I'm on your side with it.
“In this world, whenever there is light, there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exist, there must also be losers. The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars and hatred is born to protect love.“


December 30, 2017, 03:06:04 PMReply #81

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2017, 03:06:04 PM »
I'm totally fine with a Rey/Poe relationship, and I'm somewhat expecting something to happen there just from their introduction at the end of TLJ - it reeked of "nice to meet you, sexy awesome person I've only heard good things about" from both sides.  I don't know that such a relationship is really needed for either of their characters, though, and it's always possible that it will be badly handled, so if they're going to do it they need to make sure it feels right - especially if they go the route of having us come into ep. IX with them already together, rather than letting us see the start of the relationship.
See i thought somewhat of the samething. I think just the awkardness of that meeting, and the way it open said it all. i mean even in TFA novelization Rey sees Poe and she describes him as a very handsome man, and that she liked his face. I mean but you are right they could totally ignore it, but also you could argue that if their is a time gap then they could use comics and books to fill in that gap, like with Han and Leia. Personally i would be pissed if JJ does a complete 180 on Poe's character. Their is also alot of things Rey and Poe have in common. You could argue also Rey doesnt have Finn anymore so why not? Poe and Rey are very likeable characters and both have the most character development in TLJ. Poe is also a bit of a Smuggler, lover/fighter guy like Han Solo.
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December 30, 2017, 06:01:10 PMReply #82

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2017, 06:01:10 PM »


Ah seems someone decided to put a Rey Filter over Luke's old role. Perhaps this should visually explain a bit of my basic detesting of Rey as a...I want to say character...but that would imply she was a character and not a demographic check box...kinda similar to the Resistance Vice Admiral Strong Independent woman.
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December 30, 2017, 06:08:20 PMReply #83

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2017, 06:08:20 PM »
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

December 30, 2017, 06:45:42 PMReply #84

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2017, 06:45:42 PM »
I count myself fortunate that I'm never going to understand why some people feel the need to let out these unhinged rants about a movie they didn't like.  I guess Slornie was right - haters gonna hate.

December 30, 2017, 11:51:05 PMReply #85

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2017, 11:51:05 PM »
Ehhh Rey got her ass kicked a bit by the Preatorian Guards(Everytime i say their names i think of Preator 2s) and if she was truly a Mary Sue then she should have been able to resist Snoke and Kill him herself, and not Rely on Emo Ren.
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December 31, 2017, 07:00:28 AMReply #86

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2017, 07:00:28 AM »
Ehhh Rey got her ass kicked a bit by the Preatorian Guards(Everytime i say their names i think of Preator 2s) and if she was truly a Mary Sue then she should have been able to resist Snoke and Kill him herself, and not Rely on Emo Ren.

I've been coming to the conclusion lately that this is another one of those arguments that almost never goes anywhere - either someone thinks she's too perfect, or they don't, and it's a very rare thing in my experience to actually change someone's mind on the topic.  I'd never even heard the term before the reaction to Rey after TFA came out.  Personally, I honestly don't really care; if her journey is enjoyable and her growth handled well, her skill-set isn't likely to bother me.  For me, it's the emotions the journey brings out in me that matter for Star Wars far more than how cohesive or realistic a universe I'm getting.  If I want hard sci-fi, I'll watch The Expanse.  If I want soft sci-fi, I'll watch Star Trek.  If I want space fantasy, I watch Star Wars, and space fantasy is allowed to play a bit loose with the rules.

December 31, 2017, 01:21:54 PMReply #87

Offline GreyStar

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2017, 01:21:54 PM »
I've been coming to the conclusion lately that this is another one of those arguments that almost never goes anywhere - either someone thinks she's too perfect, or they don't, and it's a very rare thing in my experience to actually change someone's mind on the topic.  I'd never even heard the term before the reaction to Rey after TFA came out.  Personally, I honestly don't really care; if her journey is enjoyable and her growth handled well, her skill-set isn't likely to bother me.  For me, it's the emotions the journey brings out in me that matter for Star Wars far more than how cohesive or realistic a universe I'm getting.  If I want hard sci-fi, I'll watch The Expanse.  If I want soft sci-fi, I'll watch Star Trek.  If I want space fantasy, I watch Star Wars, and space fantasy is allowed to play a bit loose with the rules.

The arguement on Rey being a Mary Sue doeem’t help if one decides to differentiate her character from TFA and TLJ. From my perspective, there’s no way to argue that in TFA she’s not a Mary Sue. But in TLJ, I argue that she isn’t one. Character overall? Stupidly powerful Mary Sue due to TFA.

December 31, 2017, 01:56:14 PMReply #88

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2017, 01:56:14 PM »
well once again JJ's fault for incompetence
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December 31, 2017, 03:54:34 PMReply #89

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2017, 03:54:34 PM »
I count myself fortunate that I'm never going to understand why some people feel the need to let out these unhinged rants about a movie they didn't like.  I guess Slornie was right - haters gonna hate.

As I personally count myself fortunate that I don't eagerly accept a film handed out simply due to it's title and trying to appease every demographic. The new film series suffers from late GoT syndrome. It's all about the spectacle, jingle the keys in front of people and slap a title on it they are familiar with and ride that cash cow into the sunset. Why put any actual effort into it? People will watch and praise it because the majority of people have attention spans and depth on par with the average goldfish. If it's flashy and has the attractive people making quips what else do we need?

Hey women, watch the film we have strong independent women in main roles...sure one donesn't seem qualified, another spends 90% of her time unconscious and the last is about a compelling as a rock since she never works for anything and starts at near max level but look we have WOMEN! Hey African Americans and Asians, we got your demographic here too, sure we don't develop either character's motivation well and one of you is utterly pointless and contradicts your own words but you're in the film, see we get it! Want new SW without having to think? We got you bro! No more politics, no more explanations, zero world building! Just that good ole Empire vs Rebels with new effects complete with token nostalgia because look we have Han, Chewie, Luke and Leia! I mean sure they don't even remotely resemble their former selves with their actions but it's okay, they're in the film see we checked that box too! just ignore the vast idiotic character actions, the contradictory motivations and jarring transitions while we pretend to go dark but instead saturate the movie with discount Marvel quips! Look Look! Shiny! New SW! Two to three films a year until your sick of the mediocre cash grabs and we move on to get your money with the next mass produced gig!

So I'm sorry, am i supposed to love something poorly written, poorly directed and that is clearly not trying to be anything other than a 'check box for everyone' Star Wars? If I am paying for something, if it bills itself as new and creatively original while supposedly building on the mythos already established then I'm going to fucking hold them to that.

But then I guess it's called opium for the masses for a reason, the masses tend to just go with things that distract them easily enough.

"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

December 31, 2017, 04:30:39 PMReply #90

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2017, 04:30:39 PM »
My post was directed more at whoever made the second video you posted, Xizer, than you specifically.

My point is that in the end it is just a movie - why get so worked up about it?  Worst case is that you've wasted fifteen bucks.  I loathed AotC and STID, but I don't feel the need to give long rants about how terrible I thought they were, or how stupid or simple-minded people who liked them must be.  I just accept that different strokes please different folks and move on.

December 31, 2017, 10:28:36 PMReply #91

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #91 on: December 31, 2017, 10:28:36 PM »
So... lets talk about what we think this movie means for episode 9
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January 01, 2018, 12:44:31 AMReply #92

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #92 on: January 01, 2018, 12:44:31 AM »
My post was directed more at whoever made the second video you posted, Xizer, than you specifically.

My point is that in the end it is just a movie - why get so worked up about it?  Worst case is that you've wasted fifteen bucks.  I loathed AotC and STID, but I don't feel the need to give long rants about how terrible I thought they were, or how stupid or simple-minded people who liked them must be.  I just accept that different strokes please different folks and move on.

That's alright, I was out of line. Of course people are different and have different ideals on what constitutes good entertainment. I have to admit I can be condescending more than I would like.
Too much similarity to Saruman when it comes to too much faith in my own knowledge over others and that bleeds over into contempt when it seems others don't see what I see as obvious. It is elitism and uncalled for. My apologies.
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

January 01, 2018, 12:53:33 AMReply #93

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #93 on: January 01, 2018, 12:53:33 AM »
That's alright, I was out of line. Of course people are different and have different ideals on what constitutes good entertainment. I have to admit I can be condescending more than I would like.
Too much similarity to Saruman when it comes to too much faith in my own knowledge over others and that bleeds over into contempt when it seems others don't see what I see as obvious. It is elitism and uncalled for. My apologies.

There is more self-awareness shown in this single post than I generally see in a week's worth of browsing the Internet.  We're good. :)

January 01, 2018, 02:37:15 AMReply #94

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #94 on: January 01, 2018, 02:37:15 AM »
There is more self-awareness shown in this single post than I generally see in a week's worth of browsing the Internet.  We're good. :)

Right back at ya buddy. I do have a couple thoughts on how the film might have been improved, in my opinion, and it is partially these expectations that caused some of my issue with the film.

With the film as a whole it's mainly it's execution and the reasons behind the actions I just personally feel could have been better executed. Which could be easily fixed with some world building.
Establish that the New Republic has not done much since the collapse of Imperial Rule with a lot of anarchy and brush wars flaring up with central authority gone, this would help explain resentment to their cause and the relatively small number of Resistance fighters and the draw of the First Order initially, set up Snoke playing on Ben's fascination with Vader and how he should be viewed as a hero rather than villain, how Luke's new Jedi aren't doing enough for the Galaxy. This can set up ben's conflict with his morals growing up as opposed to what seems a quick and logical solution to current events. It would also fit more with his character arc of trying to force himself to be something new and killing his past.
Luke being worried at Ben's Dark Side potential is in character, the attempted murder consideration I felt was not. The same result could have been achieved with Luke doubting his Jedi teaching as possibly having a flaw that could create another Vader and after an argument that boils over with the other students some side with Ben and some with Luke on how to handle things, leading to the schism and violence when Ben threatens to leave and Luke says he can't allow that so ben draws his saber and the ensuring battle leads to the Academy's destruction. Luke at this point will feel even more self doubt and seek out the ancient Jedi temple to attempt to locate lost Jedi Lore to fix the situation, his guilt still drives him into an exile but it is due to him feeling there is an answer in the lost lore not just him feeling bad and leaving. This still allows things to progress with Kylo and the Fo up to TFA and TLJ.
With Finn, really deepening his character's motives on not wanting to fight but being given no choice as a Trooper would have made vast improvements to his arc as well as his interactions with Phasma and the other troopers. have him conflicted about the troopers he's killed, have him starting to feel like he's forced by circumstance to fight against his will for the Rebs. Then you can work in the love/friend interest to show it's about choice, not obligation, highlighting the fundamental difference between the FO and the Resistance. Have this choice have weight, instead of just touring the casino world, have them help create an actual uprising that overthrows the local government liberating those oppressed. You can work this into the code slicer aspect by having the slicer refuse to help them initially since they won't help his people while having Finn and co grow to care for the slaves they meet. in short have a pay off for Finn that leads him to decide to try and get the concept of choice to his former Stormtrooper comrades who then have to choose between him and Phasma. Make these confrontations mean something deeper.
With Leia, actually have her die when she's blown out to space, this could have had so much impact on Kylo's character development and world view. his guilt, his being forced into this position all leading to his decision that he needs to double down and go deeper by ultimately usurping Snoke.
In relation to Poe and the Vice Admiral, actually give a reason why Poe and the crew are not told the plan, maybe there is a traitor, possibly make that how the base was found int he first place thus making her decision to withhold that information on intended self sacrifice make sense.
With Rey, you can make her far more compelling while still making her a Force God. If she is so strong, have some side effects of her losing control with consequences, have her fear her own potential, but work to overcome that. The fact she's never been trained could be used to such effect in that her raw power could have badly killed or injured someone she cared about so she shies away from the Force and would make her on a psychological level opposed to kylo's assertion that more power is the answer to her problems.
With luke and Rey, focus more on the character building between them, you can have Luke refuse to teach her, and refuse the lightsaber, not by casually throwing it away but by pushing it away with far more emotional weight. have him say he can't give up on finding this 'answer' that he missed before in the old lore and he can't go back til he finds that to bring Ben back and fix things though he agrees to train her after hearing about Han's death(and no cut away from that! that scene of Luke's reaction needs to be seen and felt!). have Rey point out things have gotten this bad from his self doubt that led him to seek some ancient answer rather than try and create a new one, that maybe the old lore is forgotten because it's time for something new from THEM. This should make him think about what she said but not admit his focus is wrong(I.E play to Luke's stubbornness and absolute focus on what he thinks is right path) and while initially going back to the temple have the yoda scene after Rey heads out to help her frinds. This way luke goes back to help but arrives after Rey and Snoke thing.(also cut the Luke milking that...thing...scene)
Take out a lot of the tone shifts and don't be afraid to go darker.
Having Snoke take Rey's lightsaber was good, but then bonking her on the head made the scene comical and undercut it. Also...no hugh heffner robe for Snoke...that was just silly. Make it red or scarlett or something somber to contrast/match with his guard. Have Kylo blame Snoke for his mother's death, and remind Snoke of his own philosophy of killing the past to make the future tht HE is part of the past now too before betraying him with Rey. Again give the scene weight, have the guards actually wound Rey seriously, since she left before finishing training thus giving a cost to her actions, taking her out of events for the ground battle she planned to intervene in.
With the Finn and sidekick(I forget her name) on the battle have her die because she steals his ship, making the CHOICE to do so, highlighting that arc. Again give weight to it with the earlier buildup and don't contradict like the base film did with counter motivations. The dreadnought crash scene...eh leave as is. With Phasma and Finn's confrontation have Finn sow the seeds of doubt in his fellow troopers minds with his tale of experiences and highlighting how Phasma doesn't care for any of them. Phasma still dies but again this should come about as a result of her actions/path rather than randomness.
Luke's battle and death i would have done differently only slightly, ahev him projecting himself in the battle but also being there.(illusions as fighting basically) but ultimately sacrificing himself to allow the Rebs and wounded Rey to escape.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 02:45:05 AM by Lord Xizer »
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

January 01, 2018, 05:06:03 AMReply #95

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #95 on: January 01, 2018, 05:06:03 AM »
I’m not going to go into detail here, as in all truth I’m a bit tired of debating the film’s strengths and weaknesses at this point, and I’d have enjoyed many of your proposed changes (edit: though not as much as I'd have enjoyed Belated Media's rewriting of the prequels...).  I think the main differences in our reactions to the movie are twofold: first, I don’t at all mind coming into a story in the middle and having to guess at some of the background or fudge a few details to maintain continuity or, well, logic - possibly because I grew up on Star Trek’s episodic style and constant cycling of writers, where a lot of things don’t make sense if you try too hard to reconcile them (watch any Star Trek “courtroom” episode and compare it to any actual legal system - yet at minimum at least one of these episodes is in Trek’s top ten, despite the legal proceedings within making almost no sense).

The second is that I think you came in with much stronger - or perhaps just more defined - expectations, as you also alluded to.  In essence, I had no checklist of objectives for the movie; I had a few hopes, but they were a lot more general in nature and entirely based on hoping to see what I view as continued growth for the characters.  I know we don’t agree on this, but I don’t feel let down in this regard.  I certainly think Finn’s and Rose’s arcs could have been significantly better, but I don’t think they were a total waste either, and I was very happy with how Luke, Rey, and Kylo (late edit: and Poe!) were handled - each had a lesson to learn (or fail to), and all (even Finn’s and Rose’s) fit into the overall theme of examining the role and limitations of legends and the stories we tell ourselves, and that is the aspect of the movie I found most rewarding.

Well, that and Luke’s “that all you got?” brushing the dirt off his shoulder after the walker laser barrage. ;) Seriously, that is my favorite single moment in the movie, and I will never be able to give a rational explanation for why, and I couldn’t care less. :D

P.S. A couple minor edits were made over the night for clarity, as I'm on a fun cocktail of intoxicants that leave me wide awake and somewhat pedantic in reviewing my own words ;) Happy New Year!
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 07:43:15 AM by Pali »

January 01, 2018, 09:22:10 AMReply #96

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #96 on: January 01, 2018, 09:22:10 AM »
Fair enough lol and I'm recovering from my own late night celebrations as well
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

January 01, 2018, 10:02:02 AMReply #97

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #97 on: January 01, 2018, 10:02:02 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgICnbC2-_Y

That's the first rewrite, titled "What if Star Wars: Episode 1 was good?"  2 and 3 are easily found from there. :)

Edit: Also, for a comedic take, I HIGHLY recommend the Jedi Party series by Auralnauts if you haven't seen it - it's a masterfully done lip-sync parody series using footage from the movies.  First video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSCm8yAxBr8&t=77s
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 10:07:43 AM by Pali »

January 01, 2018, 12:51:52 PMReply #98

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #98 on: January 01, 2018, 12:51:52 PM »
Thanks, these should prove interesting.
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

January 01, 2018, 06:36:57 PMReply #99

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #99 on: January 01, 2018, 06:36:57 PM »
So guys do you think Rey and Poe will be a thing, or do you think it will be Rey and Kylo(if he is redeemed?)?
"The Empire did nothing wrong obviously" :)
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"YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!"

 

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