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Author Topic: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)  (Read 27269 times)

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December 25, 2017, 06:23:33 AMReply #40

Offline Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2017, 06:23:33 AM »
I don't like JJ and I thought TFA was crap too. However, I had the belief that if TLJ built off of TFA than it would improve TFA. But instead nothing builds at all really and a lot of stuff is just outright ignored.

We know JJ is bad, which is also why we know IX will be bad (protip: don't pay to see it). My point was though that 8 (Rian) had stuff to work with whereas 9 (JJ) has a total mess to work with.

And I'm also trying to figure out why so many people are adamantly defending Johnson, as if he is somehow blameless here. I haven't seen Looper or Breaking Bad but you're telling me because he made one good movie and 3 episodes (of like a six season show?) that he is somehow infallible?

Just because Bioware made Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Origins doesn't mean we didn't call out their bs for ME3 and DA2.

No, of course he's not infallible, but he's been involved in better projects than JJ ever was. If you're not a JJ fan, then just ignore my previous comment, you were just the only one here defending Abrams, so I made the wrong conclusion that you actually admire his work. Look, I was hating on TLJ too, initially, but time went by and I thought things through and realized that it's not that bad. I, for one, don't have the energy or desire to be hating on it to the winning end. These kind of lazily written Star Wars films are all we're ever going to get. At least with the sequel trilogy, since Rogue One was actually really good. So I'm still remaining hopeful for at least anthology films. I know that it's not good that the main episode films are getting dumbed down for us, and we're not really getting the Star Wars we deserve there, but again, it's not a fight that we, EU fans, can win, by protesting everything. I agree with most of what you are saying about TLJ, but I'm incredibly tired of being negative about it, I've accepted that film for what it is, and I'm trying to appreciate the good things in it. I'm not telling you what to do, and I'm pretty much on your side of the argument, but if I could advise you something, I'd say try to let it go. This is Star Wars now. Damn, this message turned out to be more depressing than I thought, lol.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 06:26:06 AM by Major Grodin Tierce »
"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Maybe those nihilist philosophers are right; maybe this is all we can expect of the universe, a relentless crushing of life and spirit, because the equilibrium state of the cosmos is death" - Arthur C. Clarke

"We even ignited the first atomic bomb on the day commemorating the transfiguration of Christ, thus unconsciously signaling that we intended likewise to transform the world, not only after the light but after darkness - with a blast that burned several times hotter than the surface of the sun." - Stanislav Grof, "Human Survival and Consciousness Evolution"


December 25, 2017, 08:59:36 AMReply #41

Offline turtle225

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2017, 08:59:36 AM »
These kind of lazily written Star Wars films are all we're ever going to get. At least with the sequel trilogy.

Well if enough people stop paying to see these movies than maybe Disney might pay enough attention to give it more effort. I don't really see it happening though because everybody and their brother goes to see these movies just because everybody else and their brothers are seeing these movies. Slap Star Wars on the title and do the usual misleading/hype trailer shtick and you bag an easy 200 million.

Even though most of my family and friends disliked the movie, most of them are still going to see IX when it comes out. That's probably true for at least 75% of people who didn't like it.

As for letting it go, yea I get it. I'm getting tired of arguing too. But rather than letting it go by accepting it, I'll just plain let it go. I'll stick to the good ol EU.

December 25, 2017, 12:52:11 PMReply #42

Offline Meyer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2017, 12:52:11 PM »

You mean the previous EU Star Wars stories that Disney categorically wrote off in 2014?  None of that matters in these movies because they never happened.  Specifically with regards to Luke, we've really no idea what his character has been through in this timeline since RotJ.  For all we know he suffered PTSD after the events with Vader and the Emperor!

For me the event at the new Jedi Temple with Kylo shown in the flashback, from multiple perspectives, doesn't seem that far removed from how Luke reacted in the throne room when he realised Vader was considering going after and trying to turn Leia.  Suddenly scared, he lashed out.  Only this time it's a perception of deep darkness from his nephew, whose training he was already concerned about, and possibly a Force vision or premonition, which led to a momentary loss of balance.


No, I don't mean the previous EU stories but the OT. Where the Empire was defeated and freedom restored to the Galaxy. Jump ahead 30 years and the New Republic is destroyed when the FO destroys a single star system after which the FO conquers the Galaxy basically overnight.

As for Luke, it's possible he suffered from PTSD but I don't think it likely. Now I'm not a psychiatrist and there isn't a lot of information to go on but before Luke's encounter with Ben he seems to be doing fine. He's training the future jedi, including his nephew. He only seems to suffer a breakdown after his order is destroyed. I also don't think you can compare the situations that Luke faced with Ben and the one in the Emperor's thorne room. They are completely different in severals aspects.
1. During the battle of Endor Luke is only 23 years old, something I think is often ignored when people discuss about his character.
2. Palpatine has just revealed that Luke and his friends have been played all along and his friends are being killed while Luke watches.
3. Vader threatens to make Leia a servant of evil.
It's very easy to get angry and wanting to stop Vader and Palpatine by any means necessary during that kind of an situation, in my opinion.
As for the Luke/Ben situation:
1. No one is in immediate danger.
2. Luke is far more experienced Jedi.
3. Ben hasn't actually done anything by that point. He hasn't even turned to the dark side yet.

For Luke to take out his lightsaber and ignite it is very much out of character, based on the information we have so far.
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December 25, 2017, 02:09:05 PMReply #43

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2017, 02:09:05 PM »
He got a lot of stick earlier when he made Star Trek: Into Darkness, which was a blatant rip-off/much shittier remake of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. And then did the same thing with The Force Awakens, just rehashing A New Hope. This guy just cannot write an original story to save his life, which is why the majority of both the Star Wars and Star Trek communities can't stand him.
Honestly, I think JJ is treated rather unfairly by a lot of the Star Trek "community".  He was hired to refresh Star Trek for a new generation (recasting TOS was probably Paramount's idea which he had to follow through on), and he did so quite successfully in ST '09.  It just so happens that each generation of Trek fans seems to view their show/movies as the one true Trek and are unwilling to accept other interpretations.  That happened when TNG first turned up, distressing huge numbers of TOS followers, and then again with ENT, and now twice in the last decade first with the JJverse and latterly with Discovery.

Star Trek Into Darkness mirrored (not copied) elements from earlier Star Trek works, but personally I thought that was done tastefully and generally quite well.  Certainly most of the issues I have with the film are of the nitpick variety rather than against the whole.  And despite everyone's hate STID still has to be considered infinitely better than at least four out of the original 10 movies, and probably edges out one or two others as well.


No, I don't mean the previous EU stories but the OT. Where the Empire was defeated and freedom restored to the Galaxy. Jump ahead 30 years and the New Republic is destroyed when the FO destroys a single star system after which the FO conquers the Galaxy basically overnight.
But as Illidan said, we don't know exactly what state the galaxy is in at the start of TFA.  How much of the galaxy does the New Republic control?  I doubt it's as much as we might think, and the First Order must already have been quite a significant power.  Sure the end of the OT had the Emperor and Vader dead, but that's hardly a defeated Empire and a free galaxy.  Even in Legends that was never the end of the Empire.


As for the Luke/Ben situation:
1. No one is in immediate danger.
2. Luke is far more experienced Jedi.
3. Ben hasn't actually done anything by that point. He hasn't even turned to the dark side yet.

For Luke to take out his lightsaber and ignite it is very much out of character, based on the information we have so far.
I think it's quite reasonable to believe that the Force premonition emanating from Ben had a great sense of immediacy to Luke and triggered an involuntary reaction, which then served to fulfil the premonition and push a hurt, scared and confused Kylo towards the darkness Luke sensed.  Hell, if Snoke is as powerful a manipulator of the Force as we're led to believe maybe that premonition was planted in Luke's mind to deliver that very outcome.
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December 25, 2017, 05:40:47 PMReply #44

Offline Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2017, 05:40:47 PM »
Well if enough people stop paying to see these movies than maybe Disney might pay enough attention to give it more effort. I don't really see it happening though because everybody and their brother goes to see these movies just because everybody else and their brothers are seeing these movies. Slap Star Wars on the title and do the usual misleading/hype trailer shtick and you bag an easy 200 million.

Even though most of my family and friends disliked the movie, most of them are still going to see IX when it comes out. That's probably true for at least 75% of people who didn't like it.

As for letting it go, yea I get it. I'm getting tired of arguing too. But rather than letting it go by accepting it, I'll just plain let it go. I'll stick to the good ol EU.

Well, I agree with every word you said. EU is the real Star Wars to me, always was, always will be. And no one will ever take it away from us, and that's the best thing about it. I might go and see Episode IX when it comes out, even though I know that the likelyhood of me enjoying it is extremely low, but the one thing that I AM excited about the most without a doubt, is Thrawn's Revenge: Imperial Civil War 2.2! That'll keep my spirits up, regardless of what happens with the film franchise, and whatever Disney puts out as Star Wars. :)

Have a good one, and good luck with whatever you're doing, and don't allow all of this to make you sad. You're right, we will always have OUR Star Wars. And here on this forum, this community will never let it fade away into obscurity. This may be a cheesy phrase, and I've said it before, but the spirit of Star Wars lives in all of us here, and it'll never die. Merry Christmas to you, Turtle225!
"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Maybe those nihilist philosophers are right; maybe this is all we can expect of the universe, a relentless crushing of life and spirit, because the equilibrium state of the cosmos is death" - Arthur C. Clarke

"We even ignited the first atomic bomb on the day commemorating the transfiguration of Christ, thus unconsciously signaling that we intended likewise to transform the world, not only after the light but after darkness - with a blast that burned several times hotter than the surface of the sun." - Stanislav Grof, "Human Survival and Consciousness Evolution"


December 25, 2017, 06:16:02 PMReply #45

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2017, 06:16:02 PM »



I think it's quite reasonable to believe that the Force premonition emanating from Ben had a great sense of immediacy to Luke and triggered an involuntary reaction, which then served to fulfil the premonition and push a hurt, scared and confused Kylo towards the darkness Luke sensed.  Hell, if Snoke is as powerful a manipulator of the Force as we're led to believe maybe that premonition was planted in Luke's mind to deliver that very outcome.

This is not a logical conclusion to draw based on the data we have. Luke does what he does in this film not because his character would, but because bad writing and plot led him to this point. This movie did to Luke Skywalker what GoT show writers did with Stannis, Baelish, Doran and others. Warp a character to suit a poorly written and lacking plot to make room for a new fan favorite so they don't clutter the stage or steal any of their wonder character's shine.

In short Luke doesn't almost kill Ben then run away and hide because Luke would do that, he does it because of beyond shoddy writing that ignores everything his character had done up to that point and his development just to make the new character seem more palatable compared to his 'foul up'
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

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December 25, 2017, 09:42:30 PMReply #46

Offline turtle225

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2017, 09:42:30 PM »
Well, I agree with every word you said. EU is the real Star Wars to me, always was, always will be. And no one will ever take it away from us, and that's the best thing about it. I might go and see Episode IX when it comes out, even though I know that the likelyhood of me enjoying it is extremely low, but the one thing that I AM excited about the most without a doubt, is Thrawn's Revenge: Imperial Civil War 2.2! That'll keep my spirits up, regardless of what happens with the film franchise, and whatever Disney puts out as Star Wars. :)

Have a good one, and good luck with whatever you're doing, and don't allow all of this to make you sad. You're right, we will always have OUR Star Wars. And here on this forum, this community will never let it fade away into obscurity. This may be a cheesy phrase, and I've said it before, but the spirit of Star Wars lives in all of us here, and it'll never die. Merry Christmas to you, Turtle225!

Merry Christmas to you as well, and everyone. I'm not a grouchy goober all of the time, I promise.

#NotMyLuke

December 26, 2017, 02:45:45 AMReply #47

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2017, 02:45:45 AM »
But as Illidan said, we don't know exactly what state the galaxy is in at the start of TFA.  How much of the galaxy does the New Republic control?  I doubt it's as much as we might think, and the First Order must already have been quite a significant power.  Sure the end of the OT had the Emperor and Vader dead, but that's hardly a defeated Empire and a free galaxy.  Even in Legends that was never the end of the Empire.
Actually my brother and i read the Last Jedi book guide. I can give officially a responsible answer on how the FO amassed such a large force.
So i will break it down for you:
1. The Emperor had apparently(like in legends) had sent imperials to build weapons labs, establish shipyards, and test weapons in the Unkown Regions. This gives the FO already resources to start off.
2. They took techincal documents for Imperial Black projects. This may explain how they built a weapon like StarKiller Base
3. The FO has been starting "Uprisings" in planets in Wild Space, who find that the NR is being oppressive to them.
4. The FO has been kidnapping children, and also seeking out great warriors, and ex-Imperials to join their cause.
5. They had access to the achieves of the Empire.
6. They had the Eclipse.
7. They had been treating the people they conquer or ruled over rather fairly
8. They were infitrating the NR weaking it from the inside.
9. The NR was disnfracising people at a alariming rate.
10. Arms dealers.

I now think that the NR must have been full of morons and FO spies this entire time.

As for what i think on Luke:
I think Luke would totally freak out if he saw the deaths of all these innoncent people. I mean come one people who wouldnt? How would you feel if you founf out that someone was going to destroy all you worked hard for and kill so many innocent people? Luke is human, he makes mistakes, but this time he fucked up hard. Judging by how he reacted to Vader saying he would corrupt Leia, yeah i could totally see him contemplating killing Kylo Ren. Luke keep in mind is always afraid of losing the things he cares for. Deep down Luke is just a man who is trying to do the right thing but deep down fears creating a monster. It is not bad writing, it is Luke's personal conflict. He knew what happen the last time the jedi council poorly trained a Jedi, that led to DARTH MOTHERFUCKING VADER! Luke fears that returning and he doesnt want to be the one responisble.

BTW if anyone asks
I dont support Rey/Kylo love story. I say i support more of a Rey/Poe love story.
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December 26, 2017, 09:08:49 AMReply #48

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2017, 09:08:49 AM »
Hm... it seems that Hamill actually does like what was done with Luke in TLJ, for those who care about his take.



Quote
For Luke—the most optimistic character from the original trilogy—to be so cynical now is really stunning. But it’s so much more interesting than being a recycled Obi-Wan.

From an essay Hamill wrote available here: https://parade.com/624594/parade/mark-hamill-on-the-true-meaning-of-the-legacy-of-star-wars/

December 26, 2017, 12:50:42 PMReply #49

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2017, 12:50:42 PM »
Hm... it seems that Hamill actually does like what was done with Luke in TLJ, for those who care about his take.



From an essay Hamill wrote available here: https://parade.com/624594/parade/mark-hamill-on-the-true-meaning-of-the-legacy-of-star-wars/

No, Hamill is not happy with the direction the character took, he has said so in an interview before, funny how he now praises the film but once again says the character direction was not good for him. This was insanely out of character for Luke, which he acknowledges in the interview. He says that he eventually agreed with the new direction the plot NEEDED for the new luke to work(though funny enough I've yet to see any actual creativity and originality out of the 'new' films)

This is not a character developing logically over time or events, this is a character doing a complete 180 to everything he was and developed. Which is not realistic, I've had some major shit go down in my life on three occasions, I've watched other people go through similar crisis on greater and lesser levels. Know what I find? The core of who they are remains consistent. Who and what they are fundamentally adapt ultimately or they die quickly. In short good or bad, the results last about a year to two at the most...not TWO DECADES with ZERO development other than moping. Dramatic shifts in long term behavior do not occur past a few years. These are relatively normal people too without resilience training or having great shocks commonly to them. Luke's actions would be like Churchill abandoning the fight against the Nazis because he felt bad about France. It would be like the FDR just forgetting Pearl harbor and writhing in self pity while a lot of the world suffered Fascism. It simply doesn't make sense. This is an instance of a new and inconsistent plot driving a character and not a character driving the plot by their actions, which again comes to poor writing.
A plot doesn't have to be predictable but it does have to be sensical. Character actions, world building and progression are all interlinked. The past forms the present, the present form the future. I.E what you build off of should directly affect your current state to influence your future. For instance, the OT would be the foundation that this new trilogy is based off of, the set up, motivations and character arcs ultimately have their root in those films. Yet the new films continually insist on building half their plot house not over the OT foundation while still trying desperately to use as much of that foundation for the other half of the plot. This is how you get glaring inconsistencies in characters like Luke(considered murdering nephew for what he hadn't even done), Han(abandoned Leia and his son for at least a decade), Chewie(is totally cool with Han ditching everyone when he was one of the main reasons Han came back in the OT, ignoring Leia after Han died) and even Leia(never tried to bring Han back, let Luke just go, never used the Force to seek him out, ignored her son now being evil until plot required she say something) that directly undermine previous actions and development solely because the present plot requires it to be so. This destabilization is further reflected in the new characters, Fenn is against killing and doesn't want to fight(helps kill tons of his fellow troopers in his escape in TFA, seems to have zero fucks to give about killing his former comrades in this film either) Poe(abandoned BB8 on Jakku in TFA, disobeys orders directly resulting in massive losses for his own forces yet is supposed to be both caring for his own side and a good tactician) Rey(supposed to be naive and inexperienced yet routinely defeats people who should be leagues ahead of her with ease, knows the mind trick, did not have prior training according to this film now. You can't do fish out of water story when said fish is better then every friggen land creature)
This is simply escalating due to bad writing and nonsensical character development coupled with a plot that forces such out of character decisions. That's what bothers me, it's beyond badly written and it shows up constantly detracting from what should have been a great film with good actors, sets, soundtrack and effects.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 12:58:09 PM by Lord Xizer »
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

December 26, 2017, 03:23:00 PMReply #50

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2017, 03:23:00 PM »
Fenn is against killing and doesn't want to fight(helps kill tons of his fellow troopers in his escape in TFA, seems to have zero fucks to give about killing his former comrades in this film either) Poe(abandoned BB8 on Jakku in TFA, disobeys orders directly resulting in massive losses for his own forces yet is supposed to be both caring for his own side and a good tactician) Rey(supposed to be naive and inexperienced yet routinely defeats people who should be leagues ahead of her with ease, knows the mind trick, did not have prior training according to this film now. You can't do fish out of water story when said fish is better then every friggen land creature)
This is simply escalating due to bad writing and nonsensical character development coupled with a plot that forces such out of character decisions. That's what bothers me, it's beyond badly written and it shows up constantly detracting from what should have been a great film with good actors, sets, soundtrack and effects.
1. Actually as said in journey to the force awakens book and in Aftermath: The FO stormtoopers are use to killing their own comrades. This is a affect of brainwashing which makes the willing to follow orders to the extreme, however Finn did resist that to be fair. I would also like to point out in those scenarios it is life or death for, so he has to kill or he will be killed. Also in a deleted TLJ scene after Finn beats Phasma he tries to convince his former comrades to leave with him saying that Phasma was the one who lowered Starkiller Base's shields which killed their own supporters. While the troopers contemplate whether they should leave with Finn and Rose, Phasma guns them all down before she falls to her "death" (she is probably somehow still alive). Finn's story arc is about him being okay with killing stormtroopers and his former comrades. Finn's story arc is about how he needs to man the fuck up and learn to take one his problems head on, and its about him finding a cause worth fighting for.

2. Poe did not abandon BB8. Poe sacrifice himself so BB8 could escape which resulted in his capture. After he crashes with Finn he escapesand cannot find BB8. He had to leave and find his ship so he could also find BB8, since he left his black X-wing at his home on Yavin 4, and by then he heard from ressitance intelligence that a group had reported thta the FO was looking for the droid which was on the Falcon, then the ressitance was alerted that if was on Takodona which is why Poe went there. Also only about 50 people died in his planned attack on the FO Dreadnaught, compare that to how many people would have died had the cannons on that Dreadnuaght had fired on the ressitance fleet. Keep in mind also that POE WENT IN BY HIMSELF aganist the Dreadnaughts tie fighters, and guns and the resistance fighters only showed up when he said that the guns were disabaled. He risked his life so that the bombers had a fighting chance. Also Vice Admiral Holdo's plan was doom to fail even if DJ had not told the FO that the ressitance was going to use the transports to flee to crait. The reason it would still fail is that the FO would detect that their is no one aboard the *Raddus* then realize the ressitance was using small ships to flee then fired. They also still would have attacked Crait and crushed Ressitance forces. Poe's plan wasnt any better, but at least he was looking out for his people. If Holdo really cared then she would have told him the plan so Finn and Rose could stay aboard and help save as many lives as they could.

3. Rey has lived on a dersert planet full or wreaked rebel, and Imperial starships. She had to fend for herself for the longest time and as we can tell by how long she has been there. She knows how to defend herself, she knows her way around starships. As for her using the Jedi Mind trick:
1. She knows the stories about how Jedi can use the force to influence people.
2. She is not the only charcter who has been able to use the force despite a lack of training. Ezra(season 1-2 Ezra), Del Meeko(he used the force to ressit the powers of Kylo Ren for a bit), Poe Dameron(He unkowingly use the force, his parents had planted one of those anicent force trees that Luke has given Poe's mother, which explain why is he such a incredibly talented pilot) and even Leia(In the shattered Empire comic she reaches out with the force and feels Darht Mauls cold presense in the old Nabbo Hanger) are all examples of charcters who can use the force despite a lack of training.
3. Anyone can tap into the force, it is just that some are better at it then others.
Now as for the Kylo Ren fight thing.
1. Kylo Ren was shot by a wookie crossbow that almost killed him. (He was punching where he was shot at boost his adrenline.)
2. He had been stab by Finn during their fight.
3. My brother mentions that he was literally using the force to slow the bleeding of his wounds(and in a more gross way, keeping his guts from falling out.
4. The Light is in herently stronger than the Darkside. Rey let it flow through her so she could muster the strength to beat EMO REN.
5. she knows how to use various mele weapons.


Aso for why Han and Leia were apart Lord Xizer. Its simpliy that Leia was being a senator then the leader of the ressitance while Han is not really the kind of person who lives a life where he sits in boring meetings or leads militaries. Han is the kind of guy who just loves flying around the galaxy not giving a fuck. And after Ben Solo fell, it crushed Han and Leia's realtionship. Also they are both just simply terrible parents. Ben Solo was also being seeked out by Snoke through the force since he was a child, who was slowly corrupting him.

and as for Luke well as i said eariler.
Actually my brother and i read the Last Jedi book guide. I can give officially a responsible answer on how the FO amassed such a large force.
So i will break it down for you:
1. The Emperor had apparently(like in legends) had sent imperials to build weapons labs, establish shipyards, and test weapons in the Unkown Regions. This gives the FO already resources to start off.
2. They took techincal documents for Imperial Black projects. This may explain how they built a weapon like StarKiller Base
3. The FO has been starting "Uprisings" in planets in Wild Space, who find that the NR is being oppressive to them.
4. The FO has been kidnapping children, and also seeking out great warriors, and ex-Imperials to join their cause.
5. They had access to the achieves of the Empire.
6. They had the Eclipse.
7. They had been treating the people they conquer or ruled over rather fairly
8. They were infitrating the NR weaking it from the inside.
9. The NR was disnfracising people at a alariming rate.
10. Arms dealers.

I now think that the NR must have been full of morons and FO spies this entire time.

As for what i think on Luke:
I think Luke would totally freak out if he saw the deaths of all these innoncent people. I mean come one people who wouldnt? How would you feel if you founf out that someone was going to destroy all you worked hard for and kill so many innocent people? Luke is human, he makes mistakes, but this time he fucked up hard. Judging by how he reacted to Vader saying he would corrupt Leia, yeah i could totally see him contemplating killing Kylo Ren. Luke keep in mind is always afraid of losing the things he cares for. Deep down Luke is just a man who is trying to do the right thing but deep down fears creating a monster. It is not bad writing, it is Luke's personal conflict. He knew what happen the last time the jedi council poorly trained a Jedi, that led to DARTH MOTHERFUCKING VADER! Luke fears that returning and he doesnt want to be the one responisble.

BTW if anyone asks
I dont support Rey/Kylo love story. I say i support more of a Rey/Poe love story.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 03:24:59 PM by Illidan Stormrage »
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December 26, 2017, 04:50:30 PMReply #51

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2017, 04:50:30 PM »
1. Actually as said in journey to the force awakens book and in Aftermath: The FO stormtoopers are use to killing their own comrades. This is a affect of brainwashing which makes the willing to follow orders to the extreme, however Finn did resist that to be fair. I would also like to point out in those scenarios it is life or death for, so he has to kill or he will be killed. Also in a deleted TLJ scene after Finn beats Phasma he tries to convince his former comrades to leave with him saying that Phasma was the one who lowered Starkiller Base's shields which killed their own supporters. While the troopers contemplate whether they should leave with Finn and Rose, Phasma guns them all down before she falls to her "death" (she is probably somehow still alive). Finn's story arc is about him being okay with killing stormtroopers and his former comrades. Finn's story arc is about how he needs to man the fuck up and learn to take one his problems head on, and its about him finding a cause worth fighting for.

2. Poe did not abandon BB8. Poe sacrifice himself so BB8 could escape which resulted in his capture. After he crashes with Finn he escapesand cannot find BB8. He had to leave and find his ship so he could also find BB8, since he left his black X-wing at his home on Yavin 4, and by then he heard from ressitance intelligence that a group had reported thta the FO was looking for the droid which was on the Falcon, then the ressitance was alerted that if was on Takodona which is why Poe went there. Also only about 50 people died in his planned attack on the FO Dreadnaught, compare that to how many people would have died had the cannons on that Dreadnuaght had fired on the ressitance fleet. Keep in mind also that POE WENT IN BY HIMSELF aganist the Dreadnaughts tie fighters, and guns and the resistance fighters only showed up when he said that the guns were disabaled. He risked his life so that the bombers had a fighting chance. Also Vice Admiral Holdo's plan was doom to fail even if DJ had not told the FO that the ressitance was going to use the transports to flee to crait. The reason it would still fail is that the FO would detect that their is no one aboard the *Raddus* then realize the ressitance was using small ships to flee then fired. They also still would have attacked Crait and crushed Ressitance forces. Poe's plan wasnt any better, but at least he was looking out for his people. If Holdo really cared then she would have told him the plan so Finn and Rose could stay aboard and help save as many lives as they could.

3. Rey has lived on a dersert planet full or wreaked rebel, and Imperial starships. She had to fend for herself for the longest time and as we can tell by how long she has been there. She knows how to defend herself, she knows her way around starships. As for her using the Jedi Mind trick:
1. She knows the stories about how Jedi can use the force to influence people.
2. She is not the only charcter who has been able to use the force despite a lack of training. Ezra(season 1-2 Ezra), Del Meeko(he used the force to ressit the powers of Kylo Ren for a bit), Poe Dameron(He unkowingly use the force, his parents had planted one of those anicent force trees that Luke has given Poe's mother, which explain why is he such a incredibly talented pilot) and even Leia(In the shattered Empire comic she reaches out with the force and feels Darht Mauls cold presense in the old Nabbo Hanger) are all examples of charcters who can use the force despite a lack of training.
3. Anyone can tap into the force, it is just that some are better at it then others.
Now as for the Kylo Ren fight thing.
1. Kylo Ren was shot by a wookie crossbow that almost killed him. (He was punching where he was shot at boost his adrenline.)
2. He had been stab by Finn during their fight.
3. My brother mentions that he was literally using the force to slow the bleeding of his wounds(and in a more gross way, keeping his guts from falling out.
4. The Light is in herently stronger than the Darkside. Rey let it flow through her so she could muster the strength to beat EMO REN.
5. she knows how to use various mele weapons.


Aso for why Han and Leia were apart Lord Xizer. Its simpliy that Leia was being a senator then the leader of the ressitance while Han is not really the kind of person who lives a life where he sits in boring meetings or leads militaries. Han is the kind of guy who just loves flying around the galaxy not giving a fuck. And after Ben Solo fell, it crushed Han and Leia's realtionship. Also they are both just simply terrible parents. Ben Solo was also being seeked out by Snoke through the force since he was a child, who was slowly corrupting him.

and as for Luke well as i said eariler.

Okay, to quote a certain Wraith, "You're wrong on so many points it may take days to straighten you out."

your first point:
Finn's story is meant to be a take on the failed brainwashing, someone wanting out and not wanting to fight. That is his MO. There is no scene at all in either TFA or in TLJ as deleted ones don't count since they didn't make said cut where Finn shows even minute amounts of remorse for murdering his fellow troopers, shows zero interest in trying to convince them to desert or cherish their lives. His story isn't about manning the fuck up, it's meant to be a story about him yes finding a cause to fight for, but more importantly how his personal aversion to violence/killing fits into this new cause, which the film blatantly ignores in favor of comedy/action for his character.

Your second point:
 Poe does indeed abandon BB8 on Jakku in TFA, he specifically says that they have to go back to jakku while escaping with Finn(leading to their crash) he then completely abandons both Finn and BB8 on the planet(granted he didn't know Finn lived) with full knowledge BB8 was still somewhere on Jakku. He literally just leaves and goes back to base completely abandoning the ORIGINAL reason for him being there in the first place. As you point out the Resistance got intel AFTER this time, which means Poe went back to base after insisting they go back to Jakku instead of jump to said base and subsequently crashing on jakku where he was SUPPOSED to be.
The entire space battle makes very little sense and honestly the Dreadnought didn't seem remotely threatening considering the level of ease it was dealt with. Poe's plan exposed the fleet with lack of star fighter cover.

Your third point:
Passively using the force is nowhere near the same thing as ACTIVELY using it. getting a hunch or a vague feel is nowhere near the level of COMPLETELY dominating someone's mind the very first time you try it solely based off of, "I heard someone did this once." That's like me saying, I heard someone built a nuclear bomb, there fore on my first try I CAN build one. Nowhere does it say the Light is stronger than the Dark, or that the Dark is stronger than the Light. It's two sides of the same coin, with different aspects about it. Funny how a bowcaster bolt kills Stormtroopers in armor hurling them several feet but barely phases an unarmored teen with no knowledge it was about to hit him. That entire scene can be summed up in shitty plot armor, so don't go on about kylo's wound taking a toll on him when he's just apparently not very good at what he does next to mary sue. Rey is somehow a better fighter than both kylo and Luke in spit eof having far less experience in lightsaber combat, is magically stronger than both of them with far more control than either at that age or stage of training. Again there's tapping into the Force and then using the force like a lvl 20 Wizard in D7D with zero negatives.

your last point is just ridiculous, so Han just got bored and drifted off, his son went bad and he and leia never even tried to find out why. never thought, hey let's figure this out, again even if Han decided to take off, Chewie would have done everything to get him to come back as he had done twice before. Leia, Han, Luke and Chewie didn't give up, if they were the type to just kind of not give a shit and quit the Emperor would still be in power, Darth vader would still be evil, Jabba would still have Han and Leia wouldn't have been anything other than an administrator.
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

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December 26, 2017, 05:56:21 PMReply #52

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2017, 05:56:21 PM »
No, Hamill is not happy with the direction the character took, he has said so in an interview before, funny how he now praises the film but once again says the character direction was not good for him.

And yet he liked the tweet, showing he at minimum supports the general sentiment within.  It wouldn't be the first time I've seen an actor unhappy with the screenplay who changes his mind after seeing the final product.

I'm not going to get back into another argument regarding our personal takes on the character (or the others, which I also disagree with you on).  You think it unrealistic and a betrayal of the character, I disagree completely, and I've given my reasons in previous posts.  We're each allowed our opinions.  This just seemed like news, so I shared it.

December 26, 2017, 06:26:41 PMReply #53

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2017, 06:26:41 PM »
And yet he liked the tweet, showing he at minimum supports the general sentiment within.  It wouldn't be the first time I've seen an actor unhappy with the screenplay who changes his mind after seeing the final product.

I'm not going to get back into another argument regarding our personal takes on the character (or the others, which I also disagree with you on).  You think it unrealistic and a betrayal of the character, I disagree completely, and I've given my reasons in previous posts.  We're each allowed our opinions.  This just seemed like news, so I shared it.

Fair enough, you're also entitled to your opinions on the matter and while I strongly disagree with them, I respect them and can at least understand how you would have them. We're both civilized, we simply have different points of view. I've given my reasons and you yours.
I shared the quote pic from Hamill for the same reasons more or less you put up your link.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 06:29:29 PM by Lord Xizer »
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

December 26, 2017, 06:48:42 PMReply #54

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2017, 06:48:42 PM »
Okay, to quote a certain Wraith, "You're wrong on so many points it may take days to straighten you out."

your first point:
Finn's story is meant to be a take on the failed brainwashing, someone wanting out and not wanting to fight. That is his MO. There is no scene at all in either TFA or in TLJ as deleted ones don't count since they didn't make said cut where Finn shows even minute amounts of remorse for murdering his fellow troopers, shows zero interest in trying to convince them to desert or cherish their lives. His story isn't about manning the fuck up, it's meant to be a story about him yes finding a cause to fight for, but more importantly how his personal aversion to violence/killing fits into this new cause, which the film blatantly ignores in favor of comedy/action for his character.

Your second point:
 Poe does indeed abandon BB8 on Jakku in TFA, he specifically says that they have to go back to jakku while escaping with Finn(leading to their crash) he then completely abandons both Finn and BB8 on the planet(granted he didn't know Finn lived) with full knowledge BB8 was still somewhere on Jakku. He literally just leaves and goes back to base completely abandoning the ORIGINAL reason for him being there in the first place. As you point out the Resistance got intel AFTER this time, which means Poe went back to base after insisting they go back to Jakku instead of jump to said base and subsequently crashing on jakku where he was SUPPOSED to be.
The entire space battle makes very little sense and honestly the Dreadnought didn't seem remotely threatening considering the level of ease it was dealt with. Poe's plan exposed the fleet with lack of star fighter cover.

Your third point:
Passively using the force is nowhere near the same thing as ACTIVELY using it. getting a hunch or a vague feel is nowhere near the level of COMPLETELY dominating someone's mind the very first time you try it solely based off of, "I heard someone did this once." That's like me saying, I heard someone built a nuclear bomb, there fore on my first try I CAN build one. Nowhere does it say the Light is stronger than the Dark, or that the Dark is stronger than the Light. It's two sides of the same coin, with different aspects about it. Funny how a bowcaster bolt kills Stormtroopers in armor hurling them several feet but barely phases an unarmored teen with no knowledge it was about to hit him. That entire scene can be summed up in shitty plot armor, so don't go on about kylo's wound taking a toll on him when he's just apparently not very good at what he does next to mary sue. Rey is somehow a better fighter than both kylo and Luke in spit eof having far less experience in lightsaber combat, is magically stronger than both of them with far more control than either at that age or stage of training. Again there's tapping into the Force and then using the force like a lvl 20 Wizard in D7D with zero negatives.

your last point is just ridiculous, so Han just got bored and drifted off, his son went bad and he and leia never even tried to find out why. never thought, hey let's figure this out, again even if Han decided to take off, Chewie would have done everything to get him to come back as he had done twice before. Leia, Han, Luke and Chewie didn't give up, if they were the type to just kind of not give a shit and quit the Emperor would still be in power, Darth vader would still be evil, Jabba would still have Han and Leia wouldn't have been anything other than an administrator.
First off Lord Xizer nice to see someone quoting a certain Wraith. The Wraiths IMO are underrated compared to the rouges
Second off you are completely entitled to your own opinion. I agree that i can find it hard to believe some of the things about certain characters, but i also accept that i need to keep a open mind. Which is why i am okay with certain choices they make. I do also try to build a intrest in this universe, like how I am invested in Poe and Rey getting together and not Rey and EMO REN. i respect your opinion  because you are a person like me entitled to your own thoughts, and also because you have been really nice to me in past conversations.
*Realizes he is just being a kiss ass now*

okay on to countering your counter-points(Counter-Counter-points?)

1st point: Finn's story is about a soldier who due to the experiences of war wants to run and coward from the fight. He was on the wrong side and no longer has a worthy cause worth fighting for, until he joins the Resistance. Their he finds a cause worth fighting for, his friends. Finn's story is about him excepting that he can't run from this fight anymore. That is what Maz Kanata told him when they were in her castle. Finn also didn't have any friends in the FO except for the guy we see get shot dead at the beginning of TFA and Finn also does not want to kill innocent people. I mean this guy generally wants to do the right thing. He has to accept that he has to kill people he once worked with because they are brainwashed physcotic killers who seem him as a traitor.

2nd point: Poe did not abandon BB8. Poe's X-wing was destroyed and if the FO found BB8, game over. Poe sent BB8 out into Jakku making sure the map stays out of the hand of the FO. He stayed behind so BB8 could make his escape, which led to Poe being capture, torture, and mind-fucked by Kylo Ren. Poe then was rescue by Finn who helped. When they crashed on the planet, Poe had no way of tracking BB8 so he needed to return to the resistance.
He was alive on the surface of Jakku. Alive and alone. There was no way of telling if Finn had been as fortunate. More important, where was BB-8?
The droid could take care of himself, he felt. Poe knew if he could just get offworld and reconnect with the Resistance, a way could be found to recover the droid. All he needed was a ship. He’d already stolen one. Could he steal another?
Poe needed a way to contact the ressitance so they could then help him recover BB8 however they got Intel that the droid was on the Falcon then they found out it was on Takodana which is how they found BB8. Also Poe's plan only failed because Finn and Rose fucked it up. They got somone who was piad off by the FO and therefore was given there information. Holdo's plan would have still failed because they would have detected a massive drop in life forms aboard the Raddus then realized what had happened.

3rd point: Ezra wasnt passively using the force. As seen in the short intro video on Ezra he used the force to dodge a tie fighters weponry in a increible display of the use of the force, Leia we dont need to explain, Del literally used the force to ressit Kylo Ren's mind-fucking which is a pretty increible display of power. Rey isnt a Mary Sue, becuase she still screws up, she is still capture by Kylo Ren, and she only one that fight becuase she let the force be her guide while Kylo was attacking like a crazy lunatic. In addition it is also implyied that Snoke may have a hand in that fight, becuase in the novelization it does say she could hear Snoke and that Snoke might be helping her in order forher to replace Kylo as his apprentice. Also Kylo was shot in the lower right abodomin, hile Chewbaca shot stormtoopers eitherin the face or in the upper chest, and also Kylo is a force user and we have seen People in other movies like Luke LOSER THEIR HAND and still be able to walk around a bit.

My Last point: But isnt it true in legends as well that Han and Leia were often apart from each other for various reasons. Hell in legends their is more redciolus things like how Leia was still willing to marry Han after he kidnapped her and took her to a planet under the control of a Imperial warlord, and fucking nightsisters? It is also fiar to believe that Han is not someone who likes poltics or military service, and the same goes for Chewbaca. Over the time of Kylo's birth Han and Leia's marriage was being strand do to leia's commitments to the Senate and the ressitance. Han even blames himself for not being around Ben enough, but also that Ben was with Luke and since Luke traveled around with his Jedi trannies Han and Leia had little contact with him. Also it just makes sense, becuase this is something that happens in real life. To people fall in love, get married, but are separate due to their commitments, and this can effect Children. It isnt out of the ordinary for something like that to happen.
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December 26, 2017, 07:00:19 PMReply #55

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2017, 07:00:19 PM »
What I suspect is likely to be Hamill's last word on the subject...

« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 07:16:55 PM by Pali »

December 26, 2017, 08:38:55 PMReply #56

Offline Mr.Puerto

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2017, 08:38:55 PM »
Fun fact Mark Hamill had creative differences with Lucas as well. Its a very common thing. My opinion OT Luke is the best, then Sequel Luke, then Legends Luke. Legends Luke is just really not true to the character.
“In this world, whenever there is light, there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exist, there must also be losers. The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars and hatred is born to protect love.“


December 26, 2017, 11:52:40 PMReply #57

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2017, 11:52:40 PM »
SO i have a question and i all want to know your thoughts.
Will Rey have a love intrest? If you think so then who will it be?
I am asking this because TLJ has many subtle hints about Rey possibly having a love intrest.

I believe Rey and Poe will fall in love for a few reasons.
1. Finn is out of the picture for both of them.
2. Poe wears his mothers wedding ring around his neck in the movie.
3. What the novelization of TFA said on Rey's "thoughts" on how Poe looks.
4. That meeting they had in TLJ was really awkward.
5. It makes sense.
6. They both have alot in common.


Also THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION!

Why did they hide Adam Drivers abbs? I mean i not saying i want to see them, but he just looked really goofy(also a girl i knew said for her it felt disapointing :) ) I mean Adam Driver is a former Marine and he must be rip as shit based on all the training he did for that amazing fight secene.
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December 27, 2017, 12:34:35 AMReply #58

Offline Pali

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2017, 12:34:35 AM »
Why did they hide Adam Drivers abbs? I mean i not saying i want to see them, but he just looked really goofy(also a girl i knew said for her it felt disapointing :) )

Hey, if Rey and Kylo want to have a naked Force chat, I'm all for it. ;) I'd guess it was to avoid any charges of over-sexualizing a character - consider the backlash the film would've received had a Force chat begun while Rey was topless, whether the audience can see anything taboo or not, for treating her as a sex object.  There's a bit more leeway with sexualizing male characters these days, and the "this is uncomfortable, can you put on a shirt?" joke wouldn't have worked as well in reverse.

Or maybe I'm overthinking it - it could be something as simple as the makeup team not being sure how to properly show the scar from the bowcaster bolt, so they decided to just have something covering that area for now.  Or maybe he was judged to look more intimidating with the lower torso still covered?

December 27, 2017, 02:38:59 AMReply #59

Offline turtle225

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Re: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2017, 02:38:59 AM »
Forever the cynic, I would like to point out that Hamill is probably only changing his tune because Disney is probably up his arse for his original denouncement of his character.

Oh and Poe is subconsciously using the force to be a good pilot? Now I dislike him even more, nice. Wedge was a great pilot (not that OT gives him any screen time) and he had no force.

I know I've kind of dropped out of the debate, but I agree with most of Xizer's latest points. This movie is so badly written.

So far the best thing to come out of the new trilogy is Saturday Night Live's Undercover Boss with Kylo Ren.

 

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