NR's Multi-purpose ships

[briG]

I've been playing some NR in the 2.2 demo and 2.1, in both they're much less satisfying to play and a bit more difficult because many of their ships have this running theme of jack-of-all trades, wheras IR/Pentastar and EoTH for the most part have purpose-built ships nearly throughout their whole lineup. Restricting me to a handful of ships that do one job pretty well.

The Assault Frigate is probably the best example of this. When I first saw it I thought it might be pretty neat, since I already used some of the normal dreadnoughts to good effect. What I got was a ship that kind of wanted to be a carrier, kind of want to do damage to bigger ships, and kind of wanted to destroy fighters/bombers. I couldn't find a home for it in any of my fleets, and really raked my brain for any possible usage for it.

If I wanted to destroy fighters/bombers, I'd get Corvettes. If I wanted a carrier, I'd get a Quasar, if I wanted ship-to-ship slugging ability, I'd get a normal Dreadnaught. There are plenty of others: the Nebulons, Sacheen, Corellian Gunboat, and then the Corona who all have this problem.

When these ships with turbolasers and laser cannons attack a target, whichever one that isn't meant for handling that type of target is wasted due to how different shield/armor types handle different types of damage. Laser cannons do 25% of their listed damage to frigate and capital ship shields, and 50% to hull. Compare that to a turbolaser which gets a 2x damage bonus versus frigate shields and 3x to hull.

If you look at something like the VSD-I, they have turbolasers and concussion missiles. The generous turbo-laser armament can deal with other ships quite nicely, while the concussion missiles can assist with fighter/bomber threats. However, concussion missiles are just as effective vesus ships as they are starfighters, which means they can at least fight ship to ship at maximum efficiency, and still do OK versus starfighters. This make them quite amazing and a staple for all of my fleets when I'm playing a faction that can field them. If only the NR ships were similar.

Anyway, has anyone found a good usage for these swiss-army knife ships?

[HobbesHurlbut]

The Imperial Navy is mostly about specialized designs, it's their thing. Much later they start making general purpose designs like Modular Taskforce Cruiser(assigned to low/no combat tasks (such as survey or subordinate populaces) so better combat ships are freed up for more important things), Strike Class Cruiser, and such.

The Rebels/New Republic, on the other hand, get whatever they could get and their naval doctrine always been centered around Starfighters so much that by the time of Thrawn's Campaign many of the New Republic planetary defense forces were mostly starfighters.

[Helix345]

using large numbers of jack of all trade ships allows the nr to have a varied sort of task force, so while mon cals are tanking, you can have them go around and overpower enemy ships with numbers and there won't really be a counter to you.

[briG]

On hard, lots of Assault Frigates(seemed like the best choice) tend to do absolutely nothing and are just cannon fodder at best.

After playing 2.2 more, The NR seems ridiculously underpowered. Their only AA platform on the ground not having shields and 50 hitpoints while their one advantage: strong starfighters being hard countered by IPV spam by the AI the only option you have is ISD-II or MC80b/MC90s paired with dreadnaughts. Only time carriers or starfighters get any use is to take down Zsinj's SSD. If he had IPV's the NR wouldn't stand a chance.

I specifically have a control group set up for all of my bomber squadrons. If I see IPV's, I just take it as a guarantee that at some point I'll push the button for my bomber control group and nothing will happen because all of them have been destroyed.

[Bucman55]

On hard, lots of Assault Frigates(seemed like the best choice) tend to do absolutely nothing and are just cannon fodder at best.

After playing 2.2 more, The NR seems ridiculously underpowered. Their only AA platform on the ground not having shields and 50 hitpoints while their one advantage: strong starfighters being hard countered by IPV spam by the AI the only option you have is ISD-II or MC80b/MC90s paired with dreadnaughts. Only time carriers or starfighters get any use is to take down Zsinj's SSD. If he had IPV's the NR wouldn't stand a chance.

I specifically have a control group set up for all of my bomber squadrons. If I see IPV's, I just take it as a guarantee that at some point I'll push the button for my bomber control group and nothing will happen because all of them have been destroyed.

Unless you've fixed the NR's turbolasers in the demo, I'd recommend staying away from them as the red turbolasers do 50% less damage than the green ones (this is NOT intentional). With fixed turbolasers, they're only slightly underpowered.

[the_trots]

On ground the AAC is great at anti aircraft.  Cheap and has shields too.

I propose a buffed Assault Frigate and a build limit on Dreadnaughts, which would be a struggle for the fledgeling NR to supply, and shouldn't be more powerful than its replacement.

The DP20 needs help as well.  It is outgunned by a squadron of Preybirds.

I myself have stopped building Nebulon B2s.  One of these cannot bring down the shields of a light frigate space station.  I have found the regular Nebulon more useful because of their X Wing squadron.  After the fighters are launched use them to draw fire away from your MC80b's/MC90's.

[GreyStar]

Do 2.2 Dreadnaughts deploy one fighter or two?

[HobbesHurlbut]

I propose a buffed Assault Frigate and a build limit on Dreadnaughts, which would be a struggle for the fledgeling NR to supply, and shouldn't be more powerful than its replacement.

Here's the firepower comparison;
Assault Frigate
Turbolaser batteries 80 DPV / 20 DPS over 2 hardpoint
Laser batteries 240 DPV / 60 DPS over 4 hardpoints (nevermind that laser cannon receives damage penalties against frigates and bigger)

Dreadnought
Turbolaser batteries 350 DPV / 87.5 DPS over 8 hardpoints

We know that in the fluff for the Assault Frigate it basically retained much of the weapon emplacements and added more but this increased demand on the power system (lower fire rate and shorter range) so that the firepower remain comparable to the Dreadnought.

[briG]

Unless you've fixed the NR's turbolasers in the demo, I'd recommend staying away from them as the red turbolasers do 50% less damage than the green ones (this is NOT intentional). With fixed turbolasers, they're only slightly underpowered.

Oh wow I had no idea. Thanks!

I always thought even though the Mon Cal ships single heavy turbolasers wouldn't be very damaging it seemed like they were doing even less damage to targets than a Dreadnought would.

Do 2.2 Dreadnaughts deploy one fighter or two?

Just one. For both types. So me saying it is 'kind of trying to be a carrier' isn't entirely accurate. Just the other two parts which make it feel like a glorified wet-noodle.

Here's the firepower comparison;
Assault Frigate
Turbolaser batteries 80 DPV / 20 DPS over 2 hardpoint
Laser batteries 240 DPV / 60 DPS over 4 hardpoints (nevermind that laser cannon receives damage penalties against frigates and bigger)

Dreadnought
Turbolaser batteries 350 DPV / 87.5 DPS over 8 hardpoints

We know that in the fluff for the Assault Frigate it basically retained much of the weapon emplacements and added more but this increased demand on the power system (lower fire rate and shorter range) so that the firepower remain comparable to the Dreadnought.

Well it still has less hardpoints than before does it not? Even in the fluff the assault frigate has:
-16 turbolasers
-16 lascannons
-20 Quad lascannons

Normal dreadnaught
-30 turbolasers
-20 dual turbolasers

For something that was supposed to be modified to be kind of a fast glass cannon it only has 2 more weapon emplacements than the normal Dreadnaught. Considering turbolasers probably consume vastly more energy than a normal laser cannon, it would feel appropriate if the Assault Frigate at least had much more substantial lascannon DPS. As opposed to current implementation where they're only similar in numbers alone. Maybe add 2 more quad lascannons? Then it would fill the role of a kind of Anti-fighter frigate that players could use instead of Corvettes.

Edit: Oh god and the DP20 needs an upgrade as well. I kind of forgot it even existed it's so horrid. I don't think I'd use it if it cost only 500 in GC. I tried it one time in skirmish and wondered if it was bugged because it was doing so little damage.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Well it still has less hardpoints than before does it not? Even in the fluff the assault frigate has:
-16 turbolasers
-16 lascannons
-20 Quad lascannons

Normal dreadnaught
-30 turbolasers
-20 dual turbolasers

For something that was supposed to be modified to be kind of a fast glass cannon it only has 2 more weapon emplacements than the normal Dreadnaught. Considering turbolasers probably consume vastly more energy than a normal laser cannon, it would feel appropriate if the Assault Frigate at least had much more substantial lascannon DPS. As opposed to current implementation where they're only similar in numbers alone. Maybe add 2 more quad lascannons? Then it would fill the role of a kind of Anti-fighter frigate that players could use instead of Corvettes.

We have this for the Original Configuration possibly;
20 x Quad Laser Cannons
10 x Turbolaser cannons
10 x Laser Cannons
? x Ion Cannons (Katana)

For Imperial Refit we have;
10 x Turbolaser cannons
20 x Quad Turbolaser cannons
10 x Turbolaser *batteries* (suggesting multiple guns in *each* battery, multiply by 10)

For Assault Frigate Mk 1 we have;
15 x Laser Cannons
20 x Quad laser Cannons
15 x Turbolaser *batteries*

This is what we have for the armaments of these ships. I would surmise that Assault Frigate in the mod is short on the turbolaser firepower. Especially considering she has batteries of them, not 15 or 16 single turbolaser cannons.

Also, her shield was supposed to be strengthened to try to compensate for the loss in her hull durability.

Edited: Well Saga Edition's Starships of Galaxy at least show a clear link between the Dreadnaught and Rebel Assault Frigate Mk 1 both have same type of armament; light turbolaser, turbolaser batteries, and quad turbolaser batteries (Quad Turbolaser is light in Dreadnaught, normal/medium in Assault Frigate).

[the_trots]

Yes, the Assault Frigate is quite underpowered in the turbolaser department.  It's only saving grace is 2 pop.  The MC40 is even worse at 3 pop with in all honesty only 2 hardpoints that cause damage.  Its missiles rarely fire.

DP20 can be destroyed by one squadron of decent bombers. 

Both Vics, the Strike Cruiser, even the Carrack remind you how awful the NR frigate lineup is.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Yes, the Assault Frigate is quite underpowered in the turbolaser department.  It's only saving grace is 2 pop.  The MC40 is even worse at 3 pop with in all honesty only 2 hardpoints that cause damage.  Its missiles rarely fire.

DP20 can be destroyed by one squadron of decent bombers. 

Both Vics, the Strike Cruiser, even the Carrack remind you how awful the NR frigate lineup is.

When I calculated the damage output of both Carrack and Strike Cruiser... I was floored by how well armed they are actually for their size. Reference Link
As for the MC40, the concussion missile and all other missiles have a reload time of 15 seconds.

Also, I agree Assault Frigate need some tweaks to her turbolaser firepower. I mean the reason the Imperials wanted to capture them can't be because of their reduced crew requirement SOLEY.

[the_trots]

When I calculated the damage output of both Carrack and Strike Cruiser... I was floored by how well armed they are actually for their size. Reference Link
As for the MC40, the concussion missile and all other missiles have a reload time of 15 seconds.

Also, I agree Assault Frigate need some tweaks to her turbolaser firepower. I mean the reason the Imperials wanted to capture them can't be because of their reduced crew requirement SOLEY.

That is an interesting chart.  Thank you.

I am aware of the missile reload time.  The Vic1 is my favorite ship.  I feel with the MC40 there is another issue with the missiles, maybe a small firing arc.  They really don't do much on that ship.

[Bucman55]

Both Vics, the Strike Cruiser, even the Carrack remind you how awful the NR frigate lineup is.

Indeed. The NR needs some serious adjustments. I'd also wager that VSDs are better than some of the NR's capital ships (looking at you MC80 Liberty). I ended up changing the Liberty's armament just to make it partially worth building (and sub-sequentially more in-line with canon) and it still gets shredded by VSDs.

[the_trots]

Indeed. The NR needs some serious adjustments. I'd also wager that VSDs are better than some of the NR's capital ships (looking at you MC80 Liberty). I ended up changing the Liberty's armament just to make it partially worth building (and sub-sequentially more in-line with canon) and it still gets shredded by VSDs.

The Vic's are heavily armed but not very robust.  The Mon Cals are far more durable.  Yes the Liberty sucks but the MC80b does well against Vic's.

[briG]

I forgot the MC40's existed as well. They fill no role whatsoever. I thought they would have power to shields at least and they don't even have that. For something that is 3 population you would think it might have more firepower than a Carrack.

Really it's easier to count the NR ships that actually are actually good at something than to count the ones that aren't.

[HobbesHurlbut]

I feel with the MC40 there is another issue with the missiles, maybe a small firing arc.  They really don't do much on that ship.

MC40 fire only 2 missiles at a time. Those are regular concussion missiles that starfighters carry....at least 12 of them in a single squadron. I'm hoping Corey may get to depicting Assault Concussion Missile soon, it would make them more viable as armament on the warships that carried concussion missile tubes.

[Slornie]

A lot of it comes down to the availability and quality of sources, not all of which are consistent in terms of armament or terminology.  This is particularly true of things like "batteries" which seem to be casually thrown about in some sources and not mentioned in others.

However, seeing as Hobbes has mentioned Starships Saga edition.  For vessels which have been discussed in this thread I have mapped below the relevant Saga armament against that present on Wookieepedia (whether that be from the same or other sources):

Dreadnaught-class
*Here I'm working under the assumption Saga has the Imperial refit armament.

Starships Saga	Wookiee
2x turbolaser batteries	Turbolaser batteries (10)
2x light quad turbolaser batteries	Quad turbolaser cannons (20)
2x light turbolasers	Turbolaser cannons (10)

Assault Frigate Mark I
*The Wookiee armament (supposedly from Rebel Alliance Source book) is considerably lighter than Saga.

Starships Saga	Wookiee
3x light turbolaser batteries	Laser cannons (15)
4x quad turbolaser batteries	Quad laser cannons (20)
3x turbolaser batteries	Turbolaser batteries (15)

Carrack-class
*Here I'm working under the assumption Saga has the anti-fighter armament.

Starships Saga	Wookiee
2x heavy turbolaser batteries	Heavy turbolasers (10)
4x point-defence light laser cannon batteries	Laser cannons (20)
5x tractor beam batteries	Tractor beam projectors (5)

MC80 Liberty-type
*Interestingly Saga describes a much lower armament for this class than shown on Wookiee.

Starships Saga	Wookiee
4x turbolaser batteries	Heavy dual turbolaser batteries (48)
5x heavy ion cannon batteries	Dual ion cannon batteries (20)
1x tractor beam batteries	Tractor beam projectors (6)

MC80 Strike-class

Starships Saga	Wookiee
2x turbolaser batteries	Turbolaser batteries (10)
4x light turbolaser batteries	Turbolaser cannons (20)
2x ion cannon batteries	Ion cannons (10)
2x tractor beam batteries	Tractor beam projectors (10)

Imperial II Star Destroyer
*Wookiee also includes additional turbolaser batteries of unspecified numbers as well as the 8 octuple cannons.

Starships Saga	Wookiee
5x heavy turbolaser batteries	Heavy turbolaser batteries (50)
5x turbolaser batteries	Turbolaser batteries (50)
4x heavy ion cannon batteries	Heavy ion cannons (20)
2x tractor beam batteries	Tractor beam projectors (10)

As you can see from the above, what Saga describes as a single battery can - for the most part - be interpreted as five guns of type (10 in the case of the ISD turbos) as recorded on Wookieepedia/cross-referenced from other sources.  Obviously there are exceptions to the rule even within this one source (and some significant differences when compared with other sources) which really just helps to emphasise how much of this comes down to judgement calls in the end, which we have to make when settling armaments in the mod.

[HobbesHurlbut]

I mentioned the Saga Edition only because it at least shows a good link between Dreadnaught and Assault Frigate Mk. 1's armament. Not their most accurate loadout.

[briG]

Well, if it is a judgement call, are there any plans to make the worst offenders in the NR frigate lineup any better?