NR's Multi-purpose ships

[HobbesHurlbut]

For Assault Frigate there's no reason to take it when you have Dreadnought. I would upgrade some of her laser cannons into Turbolaser to be closer to Dreadnaught firepower level and then move Dreadnaught out of the roster when you have Dauntless/Bulk Cruiser developed. Personally, if they get around to developing Bulk Cruiser, I would go for the carrier variant that the Rebels/NR used. It would compensate for the loss of laser cannon firepower by the Assault Frigate tweak by bringing its own complement of quad laser cannons in addition to her starfighter complement.

[Helix345]

the maldrood has the bulk cruiser in the demo

[HobbesHurlbut]

the maldrood has the bulk cruiser in the demo

I was talking about for the NR lineup

[Bucman55]

I was talking about for the NR lineup

It's the same ship though. You would only have to do some code stuff and it would then be available to both the NR (locked at era 2 or 3) and Maldrood.

[Pali]

I think you're undervaluing the Assault Frigate, or relying on it too heavily.  It sucks as a front line ship, but when used as a flanking or second-line vessel it is excellent - it has good speed and an odd profile that makes it somewhat harder to hit, and provides good support for front line MCs and Dreadnaughts by adding a mix of anti-fighter and anti-ship weaponry while also serving as a light carrier (2 pop ship that carries 2 squads).  The fighter complement of many NR ships is a huge part of their balance - the MC40 isn't much of a ship, no doubt, but then it is also the only era 1-2 NR ship that isn't a capital ship that can spawn B-wings, which dramatically ups its total firepower.  While NR frigates may be weaker ship-to-ship combatants than their Imperial counterparts, damn near every single one of them carries torpedo-equipped fighters, which very few Imperial ships do.

Yes, if you send a single squad of Y-wings at an IPV or other anti-fighter ship they will get shredded - but that is true of any bomber squadron vs anti-fighter ship in the game save perhaps K-wings and Furions.  Bombers are to be used en masse, not individually - send five squads of NR fighters at an anti-fighter ship at they'll kill it with minimal losses.

The DP20 is best used as a scout (PTE is toggled for them and never runs out) or in groups against heavy fighters and bombers, where its missiles can do the most good.

[HobbesHurlbut]

The DP20 is best used as a scout (PTE is toggled for them and never runs out) or in groups against heavy fighters and bombers, where its missiles can do the most good.

You just made me realized I could use the gunship to run down the erratic transports while I'm occupied with the enemy fleet and shipyard. 

[briG]

I think you're undervaluing the Assault Frigate, or relying on it too heavily.  It sucks as a front line ship, but when used as a flanking or second-line vessel it is excellent - it has good speed and an odd profile that makes it somewhat harder to hit, and provides good support for front line MCs and Dreadnaughts by adding a mix of anti-fighter and anti-ship weaponry while also serving as a light carrier (2 pop ship that carries 2 squads).  The fighter complement of many NR ships is a huge part of their balance - the MC40 isn't much of a ship, no doubt, but then it is also the only era 1-2 NR ship that isn't a capital ship that can spawn B-wings, which dramatically ups its total firepower.  While NR frigates may be weaker ship-to-ship combatants than their Imperial counterparts, damn near every single one of them carries torpedo-equipped fighters, which very few Imperial ships do.

Yes, if you send a single squad of Y-wings at an IPV or other anti-fighter ship they will get shredded - but that is true of any bomber squadron vs anti-fighter ship in the game save perhaps K-wings and Furions.  Bombers are to be used en masse, not individually - send five squads of NR fighters at an anti-fighter ship at they'll kill it with minimal losses.

The DP20 is best used as a scout (PTE is toggled for them and never runs out) or in groups against heavy fighters and bombers, where its missiles can do the most good.

The problem with the Assault Frigate is specifically it's mixed armament, and the fact it is rather light armament. I did forget it carried 2 X-Wing squadrons though because the only time I used them was at the beginning of the game where they are large part of your starting fleets. But between Turbolasers and Quad lascannons(the 2 single laser cannon hardpoints are laughable) I don't see them cleaning up any targets. The 2 X-Wings are its only redeeming factor. The MC40 is irrevocably bad, especially since it's concussion missile hard-points are basically nonexistant. The B-Wings are nice, but this is also a ship that gobbles up 3 population. I'd rather take 3 B-Wings over the MC40.

I'm quite aware of the reliance of NR on their starfighters. That would be fine... only anti-fighter ships(especially IPVs) are a blender of long range death for fighters and bombers to the point where even en-masse can't survive long enough to destroy the typical anti-starfighter complement of ships. Versus Greater Maldrood number of IPV's typically range anywhere from 5-14. The gladiator-class also slightly compounds this issue(though it is mixed armament so not by much) with it's lascannon armament. To give you an idea my fleets are usually composed of:
3x ISD-II/MC80b/MC80 Home run
4-5x Hapan Battledragons
4-5x Dreadnaughts
3x Quasars
1x Fleet commander

So I'm not exactly fielding a scant amount of starfighters here. I can fling all of my fighters who have concussion missiles and torps with my bombers at these anti-fighter ships, but  by the time the shields of IPV drop, I've lost half of them. And then I run into the problem of not having any fighters to destroy their bombers and have to retreat. I have to play with my starfighters behind the front line of capital ships, only venturing out to kill bombers until the frigates have cleared out the
anti-fighter threats.

And I'm 100% sure a CR90 is going to do a better job at whatever you send a DP20 to do. I've tried.

edit: I just thought it would be neat if the Assault Frigate MkII from the base game made a comeback. They would be quite useful sluggers to use instead of dreadnoughts. They would likely have to be buildable only in limited numbers.

[the_trots]

I think you're undervaluing the Assault Frigate, or relying on it too heavily.  It sucks as a front line ship, but when used as a flanking or second-line vessel it is excellent - it has good speed and an odd profile that makes it somewhat harder to hit, and provides good support for front line MCs and Dreadnaughts by adding a mix of anti-fighter and anti-ship weaponry while also serving as a light carrier (2 pop ship that carries 2 squads).  The fighter complement of many NR ships is a huge part of their balance - the MC40 isn't much of a ship, no doubt, but then it is also the only era 1-2 NR ship that isn't a capital ship that can spawn B-wings, which dramatically ups its total firepower.  While NR frigates may be weaker ship-to-ship combatants than their Imperial counterparts, damn near every single one of them carries torpedo-equipped fighters, which very few Imperial ships do.

Yes, if you send a single squad of Y-wings at an IPV or other anti-fighter ship they will get shredded - but that is true of any bomber squadron vs anti-fighter ship in the game save perhaps K-wings and Furions.  Bombers are to be used en masse, not individually - send five squads of NR fighters at an anti-fighter ship at they'll kill it with minimal losses.

The DP20 is best used as a scout (PTE is toggled for them and never runs out) or in groups against heavy fighters and bombers, where its missiles can do the most good.

To play this game in a somewhat realistic manner, the NR player has to rely on the Assault Frigate.  The NR would not spam Dreadnaughts due to massive crew requirements, but in the game you pretty much have to because the Assault Frigate and MC40 are so bad.

The MC40 is not an option because honestly it is a terrible ship.  Yes it carries good fighters, but when your fighters are depleted you are left with the most over costed ship pop wise.

The Corona is another ship outclassed by it's predecessors.  At least the Nebulons, weak as they are, fire their weapons.

[Revanchist]

Think of Coronas as Quasars, not Nebulons.

[the_trots]

Think of Coronas as Quasars, not Nebulons.

So, for all purposes, the NR lacks a light frigate in Era 4 & 5.

Edit:  at least the Quasar is effective at killing fighters.  The Corona fails at this as well.

[Pali]

The problem with the Assault Frigate is specifically it's mixed armament, and the fact it is rather light armament. I did forget it carried 2 X-Wing squadrons though because the only time I used them was at the beginning of the game where they are large part of your starting fleets. But between Turbolasers and Quad lascannons(the 2 single laser cannon hardpoints are laughable) I don't see them cleaning up any targets. The 2 X-Wings are its only redeeming factor. The MC40 is irrevocably bad, especially since it's concussion missile hard-points are basically nonexistant. The B-Wings are nice, but this is also a ship that gobbles up 3 population. I'd rather take 3 B-Wings over the MC40.

I'm quite aware of the reliance of NR on their starfighters. That would be fine... only anti-fighter ships(especially IPVs) are a blender of long range death for fighters and bombers to the point where even en-masse can't survive long enough to destroy the typical anti-starfighter complement of ships. Versus Greater Maldrood number of IPV's typically range anywhere from 5-14. The gladiator-class also slightly compounds this issue(though it is mixed armament so not by much) with it's lascannon armament. To give you an idea my fleets are usually composed of:
3x ISD-II/MC80b/MC80 Home run
4-5x Hapan Battledragons
4-5x Dreadnaughts
3x Quasars
1x Fleet commander

So I'm not exactly fielding a scant amount of starfighters here. I can fling all of my fighters who have concussion missiles and torps with my bombers at these anti-fighter ships, but  by the time the shields of IPV drop, I've lost half of them. And then I run into the problem of not having any fighters to destroy their bombers and have to retreat. I have to play with my starfighters behind the front line of capital ships, only venturing out to kill bombers until the frigates have cleared out the
anti-fighter threats.

And I'm 100% sure a CR90 is going to do a better job at whatever you send a DP20 to do. I've tried.

edit: I just thought it would be neat if the Assault Frigate MkII from the base game made a comeback. They would be quite useful sluggers to use instead of dreadnoughts. They would likely have to be buildable only in limited numbers.

I'm not saying you should fling your fighters and bombers at anti-fighter ships, but I simply do not believe you if you're saying that several squadrons of NR fighters and bombers can't make short work of an IPV - the IPV dies pretty easily to a lot of torpedos, just like every other corvette.  If your enemy is throwing 14 IPVs at you, that's a third of it's maximum pop - your big ships then should be enough to slaughter those IPVs as you keep your fighters and bombers away from them.  Don't rush your enemy - advance slowly, see how they are deployed, and deploy yourself to counter them.

I forgot the MC40 is 3 pop, was thinking of it as 2 (not in a position to double-check at the moment, so taking your word on it).  I agree that at 3 it is very lacking.  The Assault Frigate I stand by - you say that aside from the X-wings it is lacking, but part of the ship's balance is that it has the X-wings.  The ship isn't meant to kill on its own, it is meant to serve as a part of a larger force as a second liner and to cover the flanks of your formation.

To be perfectly honest, I think that if you're having a problem with that fleet, it's a problem of deployment and tactics, not the ships themselves - that fleet should do just fine against most AI fleets of comparable size, though I've never been a fan of the battledragons - I prefer NR fighters to Hapan, and I'd rather have other NR ships in their place (a pair of Assault Frigates, another Quasar or two, and a mix of CR90s and DP20s for the rest of the pop).  Don't underestimate NR anti-fighter ships - they help your fighters gain supremacy, and once you have it, you have the battle.  Also, a few DP20s with PTE running can dance along the side of a fight drawing fire that barely hits them - a micro-heavy tactic as you need to constantly have them turn to throw off fire, but not an ineffective one.

[HobbesHurlbut]

I forgot to ask this but I'm baffled why Assault Frigate has a complement of 2 squadrons? She has external umbilical docks, but she doesn't have a hangar (lost in the refit process) and can't take docked ships other than a modified assault shuttle through hyperspace.

[briG]

I'm not saying you should fling your fighters and bombers at anti-fighter ships, but I simply do not believe you if you're saying that several squadrons of NR fighters and bombers can't make short work of an IPV - the IPV dies pretty easily to a lot of torpedos, just like every other corvette.  If your enemy is throwing 14 IPVs at you, that's a third of it's maximum pop - your big ships then should be enough to slaughter those IPVs as you keep your fighters and bombers away from them.  Don't rush your enemy - advance slowly, see how they are deployed, and deploy yourself to counter them.

I forgot the MC40 is 3 pop, was thinking of it as 2 (not in a position to double-check at the moment, so taking your word on it).  I agree that at 3 it is very lacking.  The Assault Frigate I stand by - you say that aside from the X-wings it is lacking, but part of the ship's balance is that it has the X-wings.  The ship isn't meant to kill on its own, it is meant to serve as a part of a larger force as a second liner and to cover the flanks of your formation.

To be perfectly honest, I think that if you're having a problem with that fleet, it's a problem of deployment and tactics, not the ships themselves - that fleet should do just fine against most AI fleets of comparable size, though I've never been a fan of the battledragons - I prefer NR fighters to Hapan, and I'd rather have other NR ships in their place (a pair of Assault Frigates, another Quasar or two, and a mix of CR90s and DP20s for the rest of the pop).  Don't underestimate NR anti-fighter ships - they help your fighters gain supremacy, and once you have it, you have the battle.  Also, a few DP20s with PTE running can dance along the side of a fight drawing fire that barely hits them - a micro-heavy tactic as you need to constantly have them turn to throw off fire, but not an ineffective one.

You implied that I should when you said "Yes, if you send a single squad of Y-wings at an IPV or other anti-fighter ship they will get shredded - but that is true of any bomber squadron vs anti-fighter ship in the game save perhaps K-wings and Furions.  Bombers are to be used en masse, not individually - send five squads of NR fighters at an anti-fighter ship at they'll kill it with minimal losses." Regardless...

I don't have trouble dealing with enemy fleets generally with that composition if I hide my starfighers until anti-fighter threats are dealt with. That fleet specifically is the only way I know of that NR can fight ship-to-ship effectively and therefore not be hamstrung by anti-fighter corvette spam. I do end up losing some ships to gladiator spam with IPV spam because 20+ Skiprays are hard to counter even with a blob of concussion missile and torpedo equipped fighter bombers making rounds. Sometimes I think I should ditch some Quasars and just place CR90s in their stead to cover this weakness. Which again goes against the NR military doctrine.

[Slornie]

I forgot to ask this but I'm baffled why Assault Frigate has a complement of 2 squadrons? She has external umbilical docks, but she doesn't have a hangar (lost in the refit process) and can't take docked ships other than a modified assault shuttle through hyperspace.

The fighters can't be carried through hyperspace on the umbilicals, no, but the 2 squadrons are hyperdrive equipped which means they can travel separately alongside the Assault Frigate and still be supported by it (fuel, crew facilities etc).

[HobbesHurlbut]

I think you're undervaluing the Assault Frigate, or relying on it too heavily.  It sucks as a front line ship, but when used as a flanking or second-line vessel it is excellent - it has good speed and an odd profile that makes it somewhat harder to hit, and provides good support for front line MCs and Dreadnaughts by adding a mix of anti-fighter and anti-ship weaponry while also serving as a light carrier (2 pop ship that carries 2 squads).

Well, the word Assault in the moniker Assault Frigate along with her fluff tend to make one think she is heavy on firepower for her size. But that is kinda diluted by having the majority of her armament be laser cannons.

[the_trots]

Well, the word Assault in the moniker Assault Frigate along with her fluff tend to make one think she is heavy on firepower for her size. But that is kinda diluted by having the majority of her armament be laser cannons.

Yes.  This is it.

[briG]

Deadly wet noodle assault craft

[Pali]

Well, the word Assault in the moniker Assault Frigate along with her fluff tend to make one think she is heavy on firepower for her size.

I will freely grant that the name is misleading.

You implied that I should when you said "Yes, if you send a single squad of Y-wings at an IPV or other anti-fighter ship they will get shredded - but that is true of any bomber squadron vs anti-fighter ship in the game save perhaps K-wings and Furions.  Bombers are to be used en masse, not individually - send five squads of NR fighters at an anti-fighter ship at they'll kill it with minimal losses." Regardless...

I meant individually.  Massed squads of missile-equipped fighters start to lose effectiveness the more targets that you have, because every missile that is fired at a target that dies before it arrives is wasted, and you'll have a lot of your fighters end up wasting their missiles by concentrating too much on one target while ignoring the others.  A single IPV will die to a group of NR squadrons with the NR taking almost no losses - five IPVs will take more with them even if the NR fighters are upped proportionally because more NR weapons fire will be wasted.

[Corey]

Well, the word Assault in the moniker Assault Frigate along with her fluff tend to make one think she is heavy on firepower for her size. But that is kinda diluted by having the majority of her armament be laser cannons.

This is part of the problem- in a lot of cases how a unit is described as being used in Legends is entirely inconsistent with what its armament makes it look like it can do. So, no matter how accurate we try to make the armament, that doesn't mean it's necessarily going to do all the things the lore says it did, because most of that was made up by people who were looking for a ship name in a rough size category and made it do whatever plot purpose they needed at the moment, which varies not just between ships but within that class. If we try to balance around the stats too much (though to be fair, EaW doesn't provide all the necessary mechanisms to balance around that), you get a lot of cases people will say "well shouldn't it also be able to do x?" If we try to balance too much around the lore roles and capabilities, a lot of those stats have to go out the window. You also end up with a lot of obvious edge cases, like Mon Remonda standing up to Iron Fist.

Do keep in mind just how much of the NR's power comes from the fighters (a lot of people discount that for whatever reason), but there are also a few places where the NR's likely getting some changes. For one thing, saying fuck representing the weapon numbers with pulses when it comes to laser cannons, which the NR uses more frequently, and just giving them whatever it takes to make them more effective at actually taking out fighters. For the Assault Frigate, we'll probably move to the Saga armament. In some places, there's just some stuff that we just clearly need to fix (MC40a pop cap value being too high, much like the VSDs costing 6 for the longest time).

[HobbesHurlbut]

Well, if the Saga loadout fix is possible, you could actually drop the Dreadnought from the NR lineup to bring in another ship.
*cough* bulk cruiser carrier *cough* *cough*has quad laser cannons to compensate for AF losing her laser cannons *cough*
Sorry, that was a long cough racking.