Who prefer the moovie to the extented universe?

[Pali]

One of the best ways to convert a Sith is to make him doubt his connection to the dark side. (This advice comes from KotOR II, when HK advises the Exile on how to take down Sion.) That or appeal to his loved ones, which was Vader's situation. Sidious had no loved ones and the only way to reliably make Sidious doubt himself would be to absolutely mop the floor with him in the most one-sided duel in history, and even Luke would not be able to do that. (We're talking about the guy who nearly beat Yoda.) So Luke would try, but he would find out pretty quickly that wasn't going to fly. What would happen next is another story.

While he was able to overcome it, the doubt you allude to brings to mind Darth Bane's greatest adversary in achieving Sith mastery - once he got over his fear of the dark side, his potential skyrocketed.  However, if we're going by the EU... Siddious didn't nearly beat Yoda, he DID beat Yoda (Stover's RoTS novel quite clearly has Yoda losing the fight but managing to escape), but Luke later on beats Siddious in the Dark Empire series (it sucks, I know, but it's there).  If we're going by movies... Yoda and Siddious pretty much were an equal match, and after a burst of energy throws him out of the immediate fighting area Yoda just decides to give up and run rather than, I don't know, retrieve his lightsaber, attack from a new angle, try to sneak up behind the cackling madman overhead... something?  I prefer to go by the books, else I have to think bad things about Yoda there.

On the other hand, there are other reasons to think bad things about Yoda, so... *shrugs*

[Lord Xizer]

Agreed, i loved the RotS novel save for one part. Where Dooku begs for his life, aside from my love of the character, it just seemed so completely out of character (i relish that sir Christopher Lee thought the same thing when he read the script so it was taken out)
Other than that the book was spot on with personalities and the duels felt more intimate than on screen.

[Revanchist]

While he was able to overcome it, the doubt you allude to brings to mind Darth Bane's greatest adversary in achieving Sith mastery - once he got over his fear of the dark side, his potential skyrocketed.  However, if we're going by the EU... Siddious didn't nearly beat Yoda, he DID beat Yoda (Stover's RoTS novel quite clearly has Yoda losing the fight but managing to escape), but Luke later on beats Siddious in the Dark Empire series (it sucks, I know, but it's there).  If we're going by movies... Yoda and Siddious pretty much were an equal match, and after a burst of energy throws him out of the immediate fighting area Yoda just decides to give up and run rather than, I don't know, retrieve his lightsaber, attack from a new angle, try to sneak up behind the cackling madman overhead... something?  I prefer to go by the books, else I have to think bad things about Yoda there.

On the other hand, there are other reasons to think bad things about Yoda, so... *shrugs*

What I think about the Yoda/Sidious duel is that Yoda was beaten; but not physically. He was a broken man (er, alien) after sensing all those deaths in the Force. Could he have beaten Sidious? I believe he could have, but at what cost? How far would he have gone, might he have embraced the power of the Dark Side to defeat Palpatine, not to defeat an enemy, but simply as a blind act of revenge?

Yoda was beaten because his hands were tied. He couldn't become what was necessary to defeat Sidious without betraying everything he stood for.

[Lord Xizer]

And in that very way Sidious proved a mastery over Yoda in that he held no such scruple.  In the space of a humans llifetime he defeated 874 years of accumulated Jedi knowledge and to that point the pinnacle of Jedi.

Yoda also realized that the Sith were new. Even if he killed Sidious at that point, the Jedi would have been seen as assassins and still hunted. With galaxy divided and pockets of separatists still active the galaxy would have been embroiled in dozens of conflicts with no clear right or wrong. Just chaos.

[jordanthejq12]

Yoda also realized that the Sith were new. Even if he killed Sidious at that point, the Jedi would have been seen as assassins and still hunted. With galaxy divided and pockets of separatists still active the galaxy would have been embroiled in dozens of conflicts with no clear right or wrong. Just chaos.

Let's play what-if for a moment. With Sidious dead, he can't reach Mustafar. Assuming the other duel doesn't turn out differently, Obi-Wan leaves Anakin to die, and with only two (actually two dozen or so) Jedi left, the galaxy is left on the verge of collapse...but wait! We still have a Senate. What happens next?

[CaptainPogo]

I always felt the Senate has a reach a point of complete hopelessness. While some senators aren't drinking the kool-aid Palpatine made, a good majority outright see the man as worthy of being Emperor and cheered at his declaration. At that point, I simply think that after all the deaths, the Republic would indeed cease to exist in short time. It was too corrupted and relied deeply on one man, ironically caused by the same man, and once he kicked the bucket, nobody would really know what the Hell to do since there was no one who had authority as much as Palpatine did and that's all they knew.

[Vulcanus]

Let's play what-if for a moment. With Sidious dead, he can't reach Mustafar. Assuming the other duel doesn't turn out differently, Obi-Wan leaves Anakin to die, and with only two (actually two dozen or so) Jedi left, the galaxy is left on the verge of collapse...but wait! We still have a Senate. What happens next?

I believe the result would be somewhat similar to the original vision for the Empire. A weak puppet Emperor (identity?) with people like Isard, Pestage and Tarkin pulling the strings. And Tarkin holding absolute power over the Galaxy could be even more frightening than what Palpatine did.

[Lord Xizer]

That is a thought there, plus Thrawn wouldn't have been recruited,  the EotH never born, the multitude of threats in unknown regions unleashed, then there's the Vongs eventual arrival into such a galaxy.  Thank the Force Yoda lost that dual.

[CaptainPogo]

I will say the EU also does a great job on expanding Anakin's growth as a hero. Like actually show his heroics and that he is a good person when you really get to know him and vice versa. It really helps make Old Ben's statements to Luke of Anakin of being a great man hold some merit to me personally.

Especially the Clone Wars TV show version...In my opinion since his voice didn't sound so...Filled with some hint of brooding and angst all the damn time, more like a friendly yet snarky guy who you really don't want to piss off unless you want to see his darker moments.

[jordanthejq12]

I don't have a specific idea in mind, but I will reply to a couple of these.

I always felt the Senate has a reach a point of complete hopelessness. While some senators aren't drinking the kool-aid Palpatine made, a good majority outright see the man as worthy of being Emperor and cheered at his declaration. At that point, I simply think that after all the deaths, the Republic would indeed cease to exist in short time. It was too corrupted and relied deeply on one man, ironically caused by the same man, and once he kicked the bucket, nobody would really know what the Hell to do since there was no one who had authority as much as Palpatine did and that's all they knew.

And imagine what would happen to the Senate. All the power in the galaxy up for grabs...which leads us to...

I believe the result would be somewhat similar to the original vision for the Empire. A weak puppet Emperor (identity?) with people like Isard, Pestage and Tarkin pulling the strings. And Tarkin holding absolute power over the Galaxy could be even more frightening than what Palpatine did.

Nah, eventually Tarkin would just out-and-out take it. Assuming the Jedi didn't...ah, the Jedi. There's the rub: per Palpatine's design, there was no mechanism by which Order 66 could be rescinded. Even if a group of pro-Jedi Senators did succeed in seizing control, they would have to either rescind the order (impossible) or disband the GAR (practically impossible and inadvisable given that the CIS was still capable of causing trouble). We can perhaps take the moral high road in which the GAR disbands, the remaining Confederates are allowed to secede in peace, and the Jedi can come out of hiding, albeit very unpopular and minus the Temple. But then...

That is a thought there, plus Thrawn wouldn't have been recruited,  the EotH never born, the multitude of threats in unknown regions unleashed, then there's the Vongs eventual arrival into such a galaxy.  Thank the Force Yoda lost that dual.

I'm not so sure about that. It would take some time for the galaxy to settle down, but whatever successor state might have found Thrawn. That's not something we can say for certain. It could also be possible that Thrawn discovers the threat, finds a sympathetic ear to tell, and the galaxy is not caught entirely by surprise by the Vong. More likely the Vong arrive in this state of chaos and...yeah. So yes, perhaps it did all work out for the best. On the other hand, maybe not.

[Pali]

What I think about the Yoda/Sidious duel is that Yoda was beaten; but not physically. He was a broken man (er, alien) after sensing all those deaths in the Force. Could he have beaten Sidious? I believe he could have, but at what cost? How far would he have gone, might he have embraced the power of the Dark Side to defeat Palpatine, not to defeat an enemy, but simply as a blind act of revenge?

Yoda was beaten because his hands were tied. He couldn't become what was necessary to defeat Sidious without betraying everything he stood for.

I agree that this or something very similar is probably what Lucas wanted people to take away from it, but it's just poorly handled in the movie.  The book recovers the fight's credibility nicely, though.

P.S. Agreed on Dooku's begging for his life being uncharacteristic for him.

[Lord Xizer]

I agree that this or something very similar is probably what Lucas wanted people to take away from it, but it's just poorly handled in the movie.  The book recovers the fight's credibility nicely, though.

P.S. Agreed on Dooku's begging for his life being uncharacteristic for him.

Well said

[jordanthejq12]

OOC for Dooku, maybe, but consider. He's just gotten his butt handed to him by somebody he clearly underestimated. His master has just thrown him to the wolves. It's right about now that he's realizing he means nothing to Palps. Any other man would be praying for Jedi mercy and a trial (though they could easily execute him after parading him across Coruscant, which would be even more embarrassing). Maybe the movie wasn't so clear on that, either, but this is the situation that could rattle even a Sith Lord.

[Pali]

The reason I considered it OOC was because Dooku wasn't just Sith, and I don't think even primarily Sith - he was an aristocrat, full of belief that he was a superior being by his very nature.  A Sith in that situation actually is completely justified in begging for mercy if he's got any reason to think it'll work, since the dead lose any ability to again turn things to their advantage - as Bane said, glory is for the living; dead is dead.  But as an aristocrat?  Begging for mercy just felt... beneath him.

On the flip side, he'd probably never been in a situation before that he honestly expected to die in, and that kind of shock and fear could easily erode one's aristocratic demeanor, so... *shrugs*

[jordanthejq12]

Not really sure if he'd be able to turn this to his advantage. Again, surrender probably results in being marched to Coruscant, tried, convicted, and probably summarily executed over the (possibly half-hearted) objections of the Jedi Council. It might have been him realizing that he's just caught 22. No matter what happened, he was screwed. And that's not a good feeling at all.

[Lord Xizer]

Him begging just glew in the face of every action and manor he had before, from comics, books CWs and movies. When he might have died byYoda he was still cold and aarrogant, when mace snuck up on him and might have stabbed him on geonosis he was surprised but there wasn't any fear, a few times he had glimpses of Anakins power there was shock but truly to the core of him i feel Lee nailed it perfectly.  When he's about to get it he is just SHOCKED, so shocked that despite his own power, influence, loyalty and potential he amounted to nothing more than a placeholder to be tossed aside. Much like he cconsidered those beneath him, i think that and the actual act of being bested by someone he hated and looked down on were foremost in his mind. You can even see a kind of broken acceptance in his eyes right before Anakin kills him, an almost- "I get it fully and know how this ends."

[CaptainPogo]

Given everything the EU has shown about Dooku...Yeah, I say a surprised yet cold acceptance to his death is much more fitting than begging to be spared. I see Dooku as lot of things but spineless coward at the face of death ain't one of them.

[Lord Xizer]

Sidious may have warped his morals, Anakin may have broken his body but there is one thing Dooku always kept, his Pride

[jordanthejq12]

That seems like a rather hollow victory in light of things.

[tlmiller]

That seems like a rather hollow victory in light of things.

Not really, after all, eventually they all died, so at least Dooku died as the man he lived as.