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Author Topic: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?  (Read 17357 times)

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September 17, 2012, 06:01:40 PMReply #20

Offline Slornie

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2012, 06:01:40 PM »
Throughout the mod there's factions fighting each other that weren't fighting in canon, but that's because there's no way to do cross-faction diplomacy in Empire at War. So were the Hapans and New Republic directly in conflict? No. Neither were the Pentastar, Remnant, New Republic and Empire of the Hand for long periods during the mod's timeline, however there's no way to represent that within the mod.
And if it were possible to make the factions not fight each other, it would make for a mighty boring game!
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September 17, 2012, 07:35:57 PMReply #21

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2012, 07:35:57 PM »
Honestly there are several parts of this post I'm not sure I read properly, but I'll try to address it as I understand it:

The other thing about the Vengeance, which I'm assuming is the SSD you're referring to, is that it was canonically Jerec's, and therefore canonically would be associated with the Pentastar Alignment.

The Dark Jedi? You mean Jerec? Jerec's one of the most popular expanded universe dark jedi, he was a major figure on the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight game story line with Kyle Katarn. And as far as being "overpowered" that's definitely not true either. They start off with two SSDs, however they have virtually no other starting forces which everyone seems to completely overlook when complaining about how "overpowered" the Pentastar Alignment is. If they get shut down early, which is really easy to do, they're out of the game. If you let them snowball, they're going to become powerful just like any other faction.
Where in the mod is Garm Bel-Iblis available in Era 1? He isn't in any of the era 1 GCs that I can remember, and in Art of War he doesn't spawn until era 2. I just double checked the code to make sure in case there was some kind of a mistake.

As far as why Garm's faction isn't in the mod as a faction, it's because Peregrine's Nest is insignificant. It's the exact same reason the Reborn Empire isn't in the mod. We only have so many faction slots, so we're using them for major powers. The Pentastar Alignment was't just some small faction insignificant to the galaxy, it was one of the top three largest and most powerful factions to come out of the collapse of the Empire although it was "technically" neutral at  its creation. The majority of the Reborn Emperor's forces outside of the core were likely from the Pentastar Alignment, and the core of the final Remnant emerging from Daala and Pellaeon was the Pentastar Alignment after reorganization.

Bel-Iblis, on the other hand controlled basically one planet and had a navy of 6 dreadnaughts. That faction would end in the first week of gameplay. Comparing Bel-Iblis' movement to the Pentastar Alignment as far as how to represent major military and political powers in the timeperiod would be kind of like if you were to make a list of similar factions for WWII and bump out the United States or Soviet Union for Luxembourg (no offense to Luxembourg).


If you're going to criticize us for how we implement the material, please at least look up the material before doing so.

Well said indeed.
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September 18, 2012, 06:49:24 PMReply #22

Offline rumiks

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2012, 06:49:24 PM »
Honestly there are several parts of this post I'm not sure I read properly, but I'll try to address it as I understand it:

For one thing, I don't know how many times I've had to say this but Super Star Destroyers absolutely do not fit the EotH modus operandi. Thrawn hated superweapons and thought superships like the Executor were a waste of resources, so making an SSD for that faction would be the last thing we'd do. Also, the Pentastar Alignment existing didn't take a single thing away from the Empire of the Hand, and if we put all the development time that went into the PA into the Empire of the Hand we'd have a grand total of 0 new units for the Empire of the Hand out of it. I either have a suitable idea for an EotH unit, or I don't. It's that simple. And by suitable idea I don't mean "let's just throw more weapons onto another ship!", I mean there has to be some new utility to it, somewhere it can fit within their roster and era progression, and more importantly from the backend creation of it, a design, which tend to be really hard to think of.

The other thing about the Vengeance, which I'm assuming is the SSD you're referring to, is that it was canonically Jerec's, and therefore canonically would be associated with the Pentastar Alignment.

Art-wise, the only new assets we made specifically for the PA in this release was the TIE Hunter, and even that was made out of the basic mesh and skin I was using to make the TIE Fighter for Ascendancy anyways. The Praetor was already being done for the Remnant, the Escort Carrier, IFTX, LAAT, Munificent, Venator, etc were all pre-existing assets we had made ages ago for other purposes but which dovetailed with the PA.

I'm not sure if you're talking about Thrawn or Kaine, but either way Empires at War is set in Era 1 so nobody is fighting Palpatine in that. Throughout the mod there's factions fighting each other that weren't fighting in canon, but that's because there's no way to do cross-faction diplomacy in Empire at War. So were the Hapans and New Republic directly in conflict? No. Neither were the Pentastar, Remnant, New Republic and Empire of the Hand for long periods during the mod's timeline, however there's no way to represent that within the mod.

The Dark Jedi? You mean Jerec? Jerec's one of the most popular expanded universe dark jedi, he was a major figure on the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight game story line with Kyle Katarn. And as far as being "overpowered" that's definitely not true either. They start off with two SSDs, however they have virtually no other starting forces which everyone seems to completely overlook when complaining about how "overpowered" the Pentastar Alignment is. If they get shut down early, which is really easy to do, they're out of the game. If you let them snowball, they're going to become powerful just like any other faction.
Where in the mod is Garm Bel-Iblis available in Era 1? He isn't in any of the era 1 GCs that I can remember, and in Art of War he doesn't spawn until era 2. I just double checked the code to make sure in case there was some kind of a mistake.

As far as why Garm's faction isn't in the mod as a faction, it's because Peregrine's Nest is insignificant. It's the exact same reason the Reborn Empire isn't in the mod. We only have so many faction slots, so we're using them for major powers. The Pentastar Alignment was't just some small faction insignificant to the galaxy, it was one of the top three largest and most powerful factions to come out of the collapse of the Empire although it was "technically" neutral at  its creation. The majority of the Reborn Emperor's forces outside of the core were likely from the Pentastar Alignment, and the core of the final Remnant emerging from Daala and Pellaeon was the Pentastar Alignment after reorganization.

Bel-Iblis, on the other hand controlled basically one planet and had a navy of 6 dreadnaughts. That faction would end in the first week of gameplay. Comparing Bel-Iblis' movement to the Pentastar Alignment as far as how to represent major military and political powers in the timeperiod would be kind of like if you were to make a list of similar factions for WWII and bump out the United States or Soviet Union for Luxembourg (no offense to Luxembourg).


If you're going to criticize us for how we implement the material, please at least look up the material before doing so.

i must say my apologies i had never heard of him or the penstar alliance at all but i do still think they are over powered...and thrawn thought death sars where a waste of time and money i dont belive he thought a ssd was a waste i just think you should have done more for eoth like a ground based wepon would be nice since or maybe some golans to put in the air would be great to you have one type of air but i think eoth is still lacking in capital ships all others have them (one again i could be wrong) and he starts off with more than just 2 ssds but for the rest i was wrong i just dont like them plain and simple and as for jerec i have been a fan of sw for years read most not all the books and never thought him to be not even  popular  but once again differences of thoughts i think
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 07:01:14 PM by rumiks »
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September 18, 2012, 07:55:10 PMReply #23

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2012, 07:55:10 PM »
Quote
i must say my apologies i had never heard of him or the penstar alliance at all but i do still think they are over powered..

How exactly are they overpowered?

and thrawn thought death sars where a waste of time and money i dont belive he thought a ssd was a waste

I'm pretty sure the Executor was explicitly mentioned in the projects Thrawn thought to be wastes of resources on pointlessly large projects. Moreover, each faction has its own explicit themes and military styles. For the Empire of the Hand, this includes having no superships. They already have the most powerful non-SSD in the game anyways. We don't have to or want to go around throwing in an SSD in every possible place. The team in general hates superweapons, and they don't even work well in EaW. The pathfinding and targetting systems in EaW are terrible, and we're not going to out of our way to work a flawed ship class into a faction that is specifically designed around not having an SSD to begin with. There's literally no reason to give the EotH an SSD and every reason not to.

i just think you should have done more for eoth like a ground based wepon would be nice since or maybe some golans to put in the air would be great to you have one type of air
If you read any news post or watch any video or even read half of my responses to posts since the beta began, we've been working on another space defense platform for the Empire of the Hand for quite some time now. The original plan was to do both the Brask and the Visvia. The Brask is ingame, the Visvia we couldn't finish in time for several reasons I won't get into again.

but i think eoth is still lacking in capital ships all others have them

Empire of the Hand has 3 capital ships, with 2-3 available at any era. Remnant has 5, but IIRC it's only 3 available at any time. New Republic has 6, usually with 3 or 4 available, however this is counting the Majestic and MC80 as capital ships, so in terms of actual utility the Chaf would be in the same range as well (something I considered doing for a long time anyways), bringing the EotH up to 4. We want to do one more for Ascendancy which, depending on functionality, will probably make it to ICW but leaving designs for ships which I already mentioned the difficulties of aside, we have to find ways to make them distinct and worth having. Among the IR's capital ships is the Dominator which is an interdictor, something the EotH covers pretty well with the Massias. The NR has the Endurance carrier but the last thing the EotH needs is another fighter-heavy ship. With the IR and NR we're forced essentially to put in all of these ships because of having to match the SW narrative to a certain extent and follow a progressing timeline, but with the limited resources we have to put into the EotH stuff (an EotH ship takes considerably longer to make than that of another faction), we try to make them as diverse as possible without oversaturating it. We've tried to work in the time progression stuff while keeping that design philosophy with stuff like the Syndic, but while the Syndic's probably become my favourite EotH ship I know it hasn't been received as well by the public. For new ship designs, they're way more needed in the low to mid range of ships to fill some gaps and so we can work out the issues with some like the Kariek, which became by neccessity a lore and gameplay nightmare, and as its another design I really liked that's something I want to fix.

(one again i could be wrong) and he starts off with more than just 2 ssds
The Pentastar Alignment starts off with 2 SSDs as half of their heroes, and can't replace them, nor do they get any other heroes if those are lost as the game progresses. The rest of their starting forces are overwhelmingly skeleton forces of IPVs and Munificents (3 and 3) with the occaisional Venator or Acclamator thrown in, and if they're *Really* lucky, they get a Praetor. That's it. I don't have the exact numbers, but in terms of actual absolute power, they're pretty close to the bottom in every GC, as well as having the smallest starting planet pool. What they do have is a relatively secure astrographic position, with a few easy planets they can take in the rim if you let them. In general their unit pool is multipurposed but rarely the best or worst at any job.

Quote
as for jerec i have been a fan of sw for years read most not all the books and never thought him to be not even  popular  but once again differences of thoughts i think

I wasn't using "popular" as a subjective judgment. I was using popular in the sense that he's the main villain in a game that was exceedingly popular, got a ton of rewards and was part of one of the highest selling series' in the 90's/early 2000's. Whether or not you like him isn't really the point, he's a really well known SW character.
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September 18, 2012, 10:07:56 PMReply #24

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2012, 10:07:56 PM »
I don't see how anyone could think the PA is OPed, try playing as them in AoW on Admiral difficulty, if you can survive the first 20 weeks you have a chance but until that time if one of the larger faction pay attention to you you're in trouble(not to mention if the Warlord's AI ever gets turned on they'll come knocking too)
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September 19, 2012, 02:41:57 PMReply #25

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2012, 02:41:57 PM »
Agreed.  PA has a few powerful ships, but they're so financially lacking early on, they're INSANELY difficult.  Makes them a lot of fun, unfortunately it also means I have the WORST time actually COMPLETING any GC's with them before the freeze.
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September 19, 2012, 09:51:14 PMReply #26

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2012, 09:51:14 PM »
Indeed. Plus I find Kaine, Jerec and the Alignment as a whole fascinating.
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September 21, 2012, 08:34:59 AMReply #27

Offline StarWarsSupremeCommander

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 08:34:59 AM »
The PA has new ships, but they are insignificant as they are not capital ships. Why would Thrawn spend tons Of resources to build a floating blob of super-sized triangles when he can destroy one with minamal effort? Ysane Isard was he stupid one, she thought launching a virus on a planet would help, but at the end she failed, and was not able to keep her prisoners both after and before. Wedge remarked in the Bacta War that Corran made it out so easily that it made Kessel look like a resort. Isard wasted so much resources that could have been used by Thrawn to utterly destroy the NR's floating blobs of wired shapes. Palpatine failed dearly, right start from killing Darth Plageuis too early. Daala used brute force-Again a wage of resources. Palleon worked fine with diplomacy. You realise how majority of the IR leaders thought that by simply enlarging their triangles, they would win? Thrawn was the only one capable of waging war, tactically and economically. Apparently most of them thought that the resources were as infinite as from 19BBY-4ABY.The EoTH were largely based on Chiss tech, which showed no evidence of gigantic ships, but rather much superior tech and strategy.

September 21, 2012, 10:14:43 AMReply #28

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 10:14:43 AM »
The PA has new ships, but they are insignificant as they are not capital ships. Why would Thrawn spend tons Of resources to build a floating blob of super-sized triangles when he can destroy one with minamal effort? Ysane Isard was he stupid one, she thought launching a virus on a planet would help, but at the end she failed, and was not able to keep her prisoners both after and before. Wedge remarked in the Bacta War that Corran made it out so easily that it made Kessel look like a resort. Isard wasted so much resources that could have been used by Thrawn to utterly destroy the NR's floating blobs of wired shapes. Palpatine failed dearly, right start from killing Darth Plageuis too early. Daala used brute force-Again a wage of resources. Palleon worked fine with diplomacy. You realise how majority of the IR leaders thought that by simply enlarging their triangles, they would win? Thrawn was the only one capable of waging war, tactically and economically. Apparently most of them thought that the resources were as infinite as from 19BBY-4ABY.The EoTH were largely based on Chiss tech, which showed no evidence of gigantic ships, but rather much superior tech and strategy.

To be fair, Thrawn was not the only master of Warfare the IR had that was effective. Both Warlord Zsinj and Grand Moff Ardus Kaine were very effective Militarily and economically. Zsinj was beaten through treachery and VERY VERY bad luck. Kaine was assassinated while being forced to follow orders from the Reborn Emperor that left him vulnerable. Both waged very effective campaigns against the NR with Kaine actually being undefeated(having won 12 major battles against the NR in the Outer and Mid Rim before pushing into the Core.

Both founded Empires that were self sufficient and powerful enough to challenge both the IR and NR while Holding their own. Both were killed before their time more by circumstance and plot rather than due to their enemies tactical abilities. I think that next to Thrawn, Kaine was one of the best tacticians with Pellaeon and Zsinj rounding out the top 4. Grand Moff was after all a military title more than a governor one and both Zsinj and Kaine were Grand Moffs AND Admirals too.
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October 06, 2012, 10:21:58 PMReply #29

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2012, 10:21:58 PM »
I must say that the Pentastar Allignamente IS NOT OVERPOWERED. They are actually, as Corey said, the weakest faction in space. In ground they are ok. And about the capital ships and all that, I'm a fan of star wars and I would say that I know a lot but this guys (Corey, and all the other people that made the mod) are definitely experts on star wars. Before playing this mod I had no idea of who was Jerec, Ardus Kaine, Empire of the Hand and all that stuff wich shows a lot of star wars story and also an unknown story
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November 22, 2012, 01:29:54 AMReply #30

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2012, 01:29:54 AM »
And now you know and knowing is half the battle!
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November 22, 2012, 04:49:46 AMReply #31

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2012, 04:49:46 AM »
Quote
it also means I have the WORST time actually COMPLETING any GC's with them before the freeze.

Pox and I have actually discussed this a bit. I may have posted this elsewhere, however for the Art of War GCs we're thinking of narrowing down the victory conditions, so you don't necessarily have to conquer everything. I might also redesign the PA versions of these GCs to fit them better (more focus on the CSA territory paths for some stuff we're adding, less in the galactic south and focus conflicts along different chokepoints since the existing ones are more conducive to completing the game as the other 3 factions) and cut down the chance of the freeze that way.

Hopefully some of the additions we're making to them will solidify their themes a bit more, as well.
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November 22, 2012, 09:52:39 PMReply #32

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2012, 09:52:39 PM »
That might work
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

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December 22, 2012, 09:11:24 PMReply #33

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2012, 09:11:24 PM »
Wait you said that the IR has 5 capital ships? what is the 5th, I know the ISD I and II, the Dominator, and the Tector, but whats the fifth one? is it the praetor or one of the victories.

December 22, 2012, 09:30:23 PMReply #34

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2012, 09:30:23 PM »
IR has Praetors in at least 1 era.
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December 22, 2012, 09:53:55 PMReply #35

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2012, 09:53:55 PM »
Yeah but im pretty sure that they are classing the Praetor as a super ship, so I dont think thats it. Its either one of the Victories or the Venator, or maybe the ModTask.

December 22, 2012, 10:07:20 PMReply #36

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2012, 10:07:20 PM »
Venators and Victories are heavy frigates in this game.  MTC is a heavy frigate also.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 10:10:30 PM by tlmiller »
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December 22, 2012, 11:25:54 PMReply #37

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2012, 11:25:54 PM »
I was referring to the Praetor. I usually include it as a supership, but included it there because I know some people classify it as a capital ship, and he was making the argument that the Empire of the Hand has too few capital ships, so I wanted to debunk that using the more generous definition for the other factions.
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December 23, 2012, 10:38:13 AMReply #38

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2012, 10:38:13 AM »
Preators are capital, not super class, right?
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December 23, 2012, 12:34:18 PMReply #39

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Re: Pentastar Alignment: What's your opinion?
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2012, 12:34:18 PM »
They're tweeners.  They're the largest capital class in the game, bordering on being a super.  But they're (comparative) lack of weapons and still having destructible shields and engines will always have me classify them as caps and not supers.
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