On hard, lots of Assault Frigates(seemed like the best choice) tend to do absolutely nothing and are just cannon fodder at best.Unless you've fixed the NR's turbolasers in the demo, I'd recommend staying away from them as the red turbolasers do 50% less damage than the green ones (this is NOT intentional). With fixed turbolasers, they're only slightly underpowered.
After playing 2.2 more, The NR seems ridiculously underpowered. Their only AA platform on the ground not having shields and 50 hitpoints while their one advantage: strong starfighters being hard countered by IPV spam by the AI the only option you have is ISD-II or MC80b/MC90s paired with dreadnaughts. Only time carriers or starfighters get any use is to take down Zsinj's SSD. If he had IPV's the NR wouldn't stand a chance.
I specifically have a control group set up for all of my bomber squadrons. If I see IPV's, I just take it as a guarantee that at some point I'll push the button for my bomber control group and nothing will happen because all of them have been destroyed.
I propose a buffed Assault Frigate and a build limit on Dreadnaughts, which would be a struggle for the fledgeling NR to supply, and shouldn't be more powerful than its replacement.Here's the firepower comparison;
Unless you've fixed the NR's turbolasers in the demo, I'd recommend staying away from them as the red turbolasers do 50% less damage than the green ones (this is NOT intentional). With fixed turbolasers, they're only slightly underpowered.
Do 2.2 Dreadnaughts deploy one fighter or two?
Here's the firepower comparison;
Assault Frigate
Turbolaser batteries 80 DPV / 20 DPS over 2 hardpoint
Laser batteries 240 DPV / 60 DPS over 4 hardpoints (nevermind that laser cannon receives damage penalties against frigates and bigger)
Dreadnought
Turbolaser batteries 350 DPV / 87.5 DPS over 8 hardpoints
We know that in the fluff for the Assault Frigate it basically retained much of the weapon emplacements and added more but this increased demand on the power system (lower fire rate and shorter range) so that the firepower remain comparable to the Dreadnought.
Well it still has less hardpoints than before does it not? Even in the fluff the assault frigate has:We have this for the Original Configuration possibly;
-16 turbolasers
-16 lascannons
-20 Quad lascannons
Normal dreadnaught
-30 turbolasers
-20 dual turbolasers
For something that was supposed to be modified to be kind of a fast glass cannon it only has 2 more weapon emplacements than the normal Dreadnaught. Considering turbolasers probably consume vastly more energy than a normal laser cannon, it would feel appropriate if the Assault Frigate at least had much more substantial lascannon DPS. As opposed to current implementation where they're only similar in numbers alone. Maybe add 2 more quad lascannons? Then it would fill the role of a kind of Anti-fighter frigate that players could use instead of Corvettes.
When I calculated the damage output of both Carrack and Strike Cruiser... I was floored by how well armed they are actually for their size. Reference Link (http://thrawnsrevenge.com/forums/index.php?topic=6482.0)
Yes, the Assault Frigate is quite underpowered in the turbolaser department. It's only saving grace is 2 pop. The MC40 is even worse at 3 pop with in all honesty only 2 hardpoints that cause damage. Its missiles rarely fire.
DP20 can be destroyed by one squadron of decent bombers.
Both Vics, the Strike Cruiser, even the Carrack remind you how awful the NR frigate lineup is.
When I calculated the damage output of both Carrack and Strike Cruiser... I was floored by how well armed they are actually for their size. Reference Link (http://thrawnsrevenge.com/forums/index.php?topic=6482.0)
As for the MC40, the concussion missile and all other missiles have a reload time of 15 seconds.
Also, I agree Assault Frigate need some tweaks to her turbolaser firepower. I mean the reason the Imperials wanted to capture them can't be because of their reduced crew requirement SOLEY.
Both Vics, the Strike Cruiser, even the Carrack remind you how awful the NR frigate lineup is.Indeed. The NR needs some serious adjustments. I'd also wager that VSDs are better than some of the NR's capital ships (looking at you MC80 Liberty). I ended up changing the Liberty's armament just to make it partially worth building (and sub-sequentially more in-line with canon) and it still gets shredded by VSDs.
Indeed. The NR needs some serious adjustments. I'd also wager that VSDs are better than some of the NR's capital ships (looking at you MC80 Liberty). I ended up changing the Liberty's armament just to make it partially worth building (and sub-sequentially more in-line with canon) and it still gets shredded by VSDs.
I feel with the MC40 there is another issue with the missiles, maybe a small firing arc. They really don't do much on that ship.MC40 fire only 2 missiles at a time. Those are regular concussion missiles that starfighters carry....at least 12 of them in a single squadron. I'm hoping Corey may get to depicting Assault Concussion Missile soon, it would make them more viable as armament on the warships that carried concussion missile tubes.
| Starships Saga | Wookiee |
| 2x turbolaser batteries | Turbolaser batteries (10) |
| 2x light quad turbolaser batteries | Quad turbolaser cannons (20) |
| 2x light turbolasers | Turbolaser cannons (10) |
| Starships Saga | Wookiee |
| 3x light turbolaser batteries | Laser cannons (15) |
| 4x quad turbolaser batteries | Quad laser cannons (20) |
| 3x turbolaser batteries | Turbolaser batteries (15) |
| Starships Saga | Wookiee |
| 2x heavy turbolaser batteries | Heavy turbolasers (10) |
| 4x point-defence light laser cannon batteries | Laser cannons (20) |
| 5x tractor beam batteries | Tractor beam projectors (5) |
| Starships Saga | Wookiee |
| 4x turbolaser batteries | Heavy dual turbolaser batteries (48) |
| 5x heavy ion cannon batteries | Dual ion cannon batteries (20) |
| 1x tractor beam batteries | Tractor beam projectors (6) |
| Starships Saga | Wookiee |
| 2x turbolaser batteries | Turbolaser batteries (10) |
| 4x light turbolaser batteries | Turbolaser cannons (20) |
| 2x ion cannon batteries | Ion cannons (10) |
| 2x tractor beam batteries | Tractor beam projectors (10) |
| Starships Saga | Wookiee |
| 5x heavy turbolaser batteries | Heavy turbolaser batteries (50) |
| 5x turbolaser batteries | Turbolaser batteries (50) |
| 4x heavy ion cannon batteries | Heavy ion cannons (20) |
| 2x tractor beam batteries | Tractor beam projectors (10) |
the maldrood has the bulk cruiser in the demoI was talking about for the NR lineup
I was talking about for the NR lineupIt's the same ship though. You would only have to do some code stuff and it would then be available to both the NR (locked at era 2 or 3) and Maldrood.
The DP20 is best used as a scout (PTE is toggled for them and never runs out) or in groups against heavy fighters and bombers, where its missiles can do the most good.You just made me realized I could use the gunship to run down the erratic transports while I'm occupied with the enemy fleet and shipyard. ;)
I think you're undervaluing the Assault Frigate, or relying on it too heavily. It sucks as a front line ship, but when used as a flanking or second-line vessel it is excellent - it has good speed and an odd profile that makes it somewhat harder to hit, and provides good support for front line MCs and Dreadnaughts by adding a mix of anti-fighter and anti-ship weaponry while also serving as a light carrier (2 pop ship that carries 2 squads). The fighter complement of many NR ships is a huge part of their balance - the MC40 isn't much of a ship, no doubt, but then it is also the only era 1-2 NR ship that isn't a capital ship that can spawn B-wings, which dramatically ups its total firepower. While NR frigates may be weaker ship-to-ship combatants than their Imperial counterparts, damn near every single one of them carries torpedo-equipped fighters, which very few Imperial ships do.
Yes, if you send a single squad of Y-wings at an IPV or other anti-fighter ship they will get shredded - but that is true of any bomber squadron vs anti-fighter ship in the game save perhaps K-wings and Furions. Bombers are to be used en masse, not individually - send five squads of NR fighters at an anti-fighter ship at they'll kill it with minimal losses.
The DP20 is best used as a scout (PTE is toggled for them and never runs out) or in groups against heavy fighters and bombers, where its missiles can do the most good.
I think you're undervaluing the Assault Frigate, or relying on it too heavily. It sucks as a front line ship, but when used as a flanking or second-line vessel it is excellent - it has good speed and an odd profile that makes it somewhat harder to hit, and provides good support for front line MCs and Dreadnaughts by adding a mix of anti-fighter and anti-ship weaponry while also serving as a light carrier (2 pop ship that carries 2 squads). The fighter complement of many NR ships is a huge part of their balance - the MC40 isn't much of a ship, no doubt, but then it is also the only era 1-2 NR ship that isn't a capital ship that can spawn B-wings, which dramatically ups its total firepower. While NR frigates may be weaker ship-to-ship combatants than their Imperial counterparts, damn near every single one of them carries torpedo-equipped fighters, which very few Imperial ships do.
Yes, if you send a single squad of Y-wings at an IPV or other anti-fighter ship they will get shredded - but that is true of any bomber squadron vs anti-fighter ship in the game save perhaps K-wings and Furions. Bombers are to be used en masse, not individually - send five squads of NR fighters at an anti-fighter ship at they'll kill it with minimal losses.
The DP20 is best used as a scout (PTE is toggled for them and never runs out) or in groups against heavy fighters and bombers, where its missiles can do the most good.
Think of Coronas as Quasars, not Nebulons.
The problem with the Assault Frigate is specifically it's mixed armament, and the fact it is rather light armament. I did forget it carried 2 X-Wing squadrons though because the only time I used them was at the beginning of the game where they are large part of your starting fleets. But between Turbolasers and Quad lascannons(the 2 single laser cannon hardpoints are laughable) I don't see them cleaning up any targets. The 2 X-Wings are its only redeeming factor. The MC40 is irrevocably bad, especially since it's concussion missile hard-points are basically nonexistant. The B-Wings are nice, but this is also a ship that gobbles up 3 population. I'd rather take 3 B-Wings over the MC40.
I'm quite aware of the reliance of NR on their starfighters. That would be fine... only anti-fighter ships(especially IPVs) are a blender of long range death for fighters and bombers to the point where even en-masse can't survive long enough to destroy the typical anti-starfighter complement of ships. Versus Greater Maldrood number of IPV's typically range anywhere from 5-14. The gladiator-class also slightly compounds this issue(though it is mixed armament so not by much) with it's lascannon armament. To give you an idea my fleets are usually composed of:
3x ISD-II/MC80b/MC80 Home run
4-5x Hapan Battledragons
4-5x Dreadnaughts
3x Quasars
1x Fleet commander
So I'm not exactly fielding a scant amount of starfighters here. I can fling all of my fighters who have concussion missiles and torps with my bombers at these anti-fighter ships, but by the time the shields of IPV drop, I've lost half of them. And then I run into the problem of not having any fighters to destroy their bombers and have to retreat. I have to play with my starfighters behind the front line of capital ships, only venturing out to kill bombers until the frigates have cleared out the
anti-fighter threats.
And I'm 100% sure a CR90 is going to do a better job at whatever you send a DP20 to do. I've tried.
edit: I just thought it would be neat if the Assault Frigate MkII from the base game made a comeback. They would be quite useful sluggers to use instead of dreadnoughts. They would likely have to be buildable only in limited numbers.
I'm not saying you should fling your fighters and bombers at anti-fighter ships, but I simply do not believe you if you're saying that several squadrons of NR fighters and bombers can't make short work of an IPV - the IPV dies pretty easily to a lot of torpedos, just like every other corvette. If your enemy is throwing 14 IPVs at you, that's a third of it's maximum pop - your big ships then should be enough to slaughter those IPVs as you keep your fighters and bombers away from them. Don't rush your enemy - advance slowly, see how they are deployed, and deploy yourself to counter them.
I forgot the MC40 is 3 pop, was thinking of it as 2 (not in a position to double-check at the moment, so taking your word on it). I agree that at 3 it is very lacking. The Assault Frigate I stand by - you say that aside from the X-wings it is lacking, but part of the ship's balance is that it has the X-wings. The ship isn't meant to kill on its own, it is meant to serve as a part of a larger force as a second liner and to cover the flanks of your formation.
To be perfectly honest, I think that if you're having a problem with that fleet, it's a problem of deployment and tactics, not the ships themselves - that fleet should do just fine against most AI fleets of comparable size, though I've never been a fan of the battledragons - I prefer NR fighters to Hapan, and I'd rather have other NR ships in their place (a pair of Assault Frigates, another Quasar or two, and a mix of CR90s and DP20s for the rest of the pop). Don't underestimate NR anti-fighter ships - they help your fighters gain supremacy, and once you have it, you have the battle. Also, a few DP20s with PTE running can dance along the side of a fight drawing fire that barely hits them - a micro-heavy tactic as you need to constantly have them turn to throw off fire, but not an ineffective one.
I forgot to ask this but I'm baffled why Assault Frigate has a complement of 2 squadrons? She has external umbilical docks, but she doesn't have a hangar (lost in the refit process) and can't take docked ships other than a modified assault shuttle through hyperspace.The fighters can't be carried through hyperspace on the umbilicals, no, but the 2 squadrons are hyperdrive equipped which means they can travel separately alongside the Assault Frigate and still be supported by it (fuel, crew facilities etc).
I think you're undervaluing the Assault Frigate, or relying on it too heavily. It sucks as a front line ship, but when used as a flanking or second-line vessel it is excellent - it has good speed and an odd profile that makes it somewhat harder to hit, and provides good support for front line MCs and Dreadnaughts by adding a mix of anti-fighter and anti-ship weaponry while also serving as a light carrier (2 pop ship that carries 2 squads).Well, the word Assault in the moniker Assault Frigate along with her fluff tend to make one think she is heavy on firepower for her size. But that is kinda diluted by having the majority of her armament be laser cannons.
Well, the word Assault in the moniker Assault Frigate along with her fluff tend to make one think she is heavy on firepower for her size. But that is kinda diluted by having the majority of her armament be laser cannons.
Well, the word Assault in the moniker Assault Frigate along with her fluff tend to make one think she is heavy on firepower for her size.
You implied that I should when you said "Yes, if you send a single squad of Y-wings at an IPV or other anti-fighter ship they will get shredded - but that is true of any bomber squadron vs anti-fighter ship in the game save perhaps K-wings and Furions. Bombers are to be used en masse, not individually - send five squads of NR fighters at an anti-fighter ship at they'll kill it with minimal losses." Regardless...
Well, the word Assault in the moniker Assault Frigate along with her fluff tend to make one think she is heavy on firepower for her size. But that is kinda diluted by having the majority of her armament be laser cannons.
Well, if the Saga loadout fix is possible, you could actually drop the Dreadnought from the NR lineup to bring in another ship.
*cough* bulk cruiser carrier *cough* *cough*has quad laser cannons to compensate for AF losing her laser cannons *cough*
Sorry, that was a long cough racking.
Thirdly I was reading up on Thrawn for an idea for a new mechanic in Ascendancy (Dummy Trading Ships) and noticed that Thrawn considered the Chimera outgunned by four Assault Frigates. While I can't calculate the DPS myself due to a lack of ability to read the mod's code, I can compare the raw number of guns.
Using 2.1 figures and bonuses.
[Stats were here]
So the question is of course then, should a group of double the pop cap of Assault Frigates be able to outgun an ISD2 with leader bonuses?
I don't really see the point of that considering that the NR does have a large list of almost useless frigates (which ships depends on fleet tactics). Depending on ship to ship firepower VS fighters VS shielding. Though last I checked the Dreadnaught was in large supply for the NR...
In addition I apologize for any past rudeness sometimes I get agitated and lash out passive aggressively on forums.
Thirdly I was reading up on Thrawn for an idea for a new mechanic in Ascendancy (Dummy Trading Ships) and noticed that Thrawn considered the Chimera outgunned by four Assault Frigates. While I can't calculate the DPS myself due to a lack of ability to read the mod's code, I can compare the raw number of guns.
So the question is of course then, should a group of double the pop cap of Assault Frigates be able to outgun an ISD2 with leader bonuses? As a side note, I guess Thrawn was really scared of those Proton Torpedoes. As an additional side note, according to Wookiepedia Assault Frigates carried these things on them. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gamma-class_assault_shuttle If the Assault Frigate really does need a buff, how about boarding parties eh? If that's in the base game. As a third side note, despite the umbilical docking cords not working in hyperspace Assault Frigates in 2.1 did carry X-Wings which can hyperspace on their own.
the fact that the assault frigate is *drumroll*-
-bad.
Well let's just kill any unique qualities the ship has then.No. We want Assault Frigate to be changed because of HER lore. I already listed my findings from the ORIGINAL sources that first statted out both ships. see below.
As a side note is the only reason you two want the Assualt Frigate changed is because of the Dreadnaught's lore?
In the Imperial Sourcebook 1st edition, Dreadnaught had 10 laser cannons, 20 quad laser cannons, and 10 turbolaser batteries.
In 2nd edition; 10 turbolaser cannons, 20 quad turbolaser cannons, and 10 turbolaser batteries.
The entry for both editions is same. The issue with the entry is that it does not SAY if the refits affect the type and/or number of the weapons at all.
Now for Rebel Alliance sourcebook 2nd edition: 15 laser cannons, 20 quad laser cannons, 15 turbolaser batteries.
The problem? That entry said the AF is a highly-modified IMPERIAL Dreadnaught. Which both Imperial Sourcebook Dreadnought entries are. So someone dropped the ball for the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook's entry for Assault Frigate when they revised it for 2E, especially as the laser cannons disappeared from the 2E Imperial Dreadnaught, replaced by their turbolaser counterparts.
It doesn't have any uniqueness in that state as it's just a Strike Cruiser with no ion weaponrey.I like the appearance of the 2nd variant of Assault Frigate Mk I (my banner :P).
I prefer the TR / Rebellion model.Heh what was it about the first variant you liked?
No. We want Assault Frigate to be changed because of HER lore. I already listed my findings from the ORIGINAL sources that first statted out both ships. see below.
Now, what makes AF unique? She's faster and more maneuverable because of cut down superstructure and added maneuvering fins. She has stronger shields to make up for loss of her hull durability. And well, apparently deploying (supporting) two squadrons of starfighters (in ICW 2.2). Compared to Imperial Dreadnaught.