Character Study Carnor Jax

[Lord Xizer]

To answer your points:
-I was using warlord as a general term to describe those who wished to break off.

-Where have you seen other sources saying that the empire is FULLY united? Its never mentioned in BF2, but its never stated as well.

-Your facts and opinions sound great to me about Admiral Versio, but his character motivation isn't that bad. I see it as the he's an A+ empire supporter, but ultimently loves his family and will do what he can do best through his Imperial eyes.

-its hard to debunk if the empire shouldve lasted longer. While its true that the empire is much more massive than the NR, i think without palpatine, no leader could truly control the greed, hate, (blah blah dark side). The empire just kind of collapsed  on itself since 99% of its people were incapaple of leading, and the 1% would never be excepted by the power hungry. Althougth the empire was huge, it was made of many that were weak. Still, maybe the war couldv'e lasted a year or two longer, but the sabotage efforts by palps kind of ruined their chances.

Here's the issue with that, the new timeline doesn't understand how this would affect things at all. The Empire can't coordinate it's own self destruction the way it's done in Aftermath for the simple reason stated by Tarkin in ANH-'The REGIONAL Governors will now have complete control of their systems. These individuals would have fleets, forces and resources at their disposal. The more that go rogue as Warlords the longer an internecine conflict would exist- because even if the centralized Empire self destructs itself, the regional Warlords are autonomous-nations within a nation so to speak.  Also Empires don't 'just dissolve' even here on Earth on an infinitely smaller scale than the Galactic Empire, it usually takes at the soonest decades of fighting, look at Japan's Sengoku Period, or ANY of China's history, or the Roman Empire, the Persian, Alexander the Great's the Golden Horde, the Holy Roman Empire etc. To destroy an Empire via conquest you have to seize it's territory, kill, convert or capture it's leadership and almost always seize it's recognized capital. Empires and Dictatorships that fall always lose vast swaths of their territory, are decisively crushed militarily(to the point they HAVE no military) and their ruling leaders caught and killed. Simply killing the leadership of an Empire while leaving the territory(and economy) of it intact would not destroy it, it would hurt it, but leaders can be replaced and if centralized leadership can't then you get lots of tiny Empires(See China's Warlord period of 1904-1945)
You simply could not do to an entity the size and scale of the Galactic Empire in a year what Aftermath tries to set up. Even if Rax's fanatical group had succeeded in driving the main Empire into self destruction on Palp's cult instructions, the vast majority of the Warlords and governors would have ignored him or gone even further in seceding from the Empire proper to evade his control. He wouldn't have had the forces to bring them all to heel to herd them to destruction and he can't manipulate people not following his orders.
This is further a problem in the new timeline as the Disney version of the Empire doesn't discriminate against Aliens and women as the old EU one did, eliminating some of the main issues that helped destabilize the Empire in the Mid and Outer Rims in the old EU. Finally the fact that both sides did not attack each other after Jakku since the New Republic did not push in like in the old EU makes this make even LESS sense as that leaves the Empire and it's Warlords in possession of nearly all the economic and industrial systems ensuring a strong economic core.

[Lord Xizer]

Seems mostly reasonable. Not unlike what has happened in our galaxy countless times.

Not within a years time frame. And certainly not while holding most of their territory, economy and infrastructure. The Empire could well have and should have lasted at least a decade after the Emperor's death for a believable sequence of events. Aftermath pretty much super fast forwards that for no other reason that getting it out of the way.

[Illidan Stormrage]

This is further a problem in the new timeline as the Disney version of the Empire doesn't discriminate against Aliens and women as the old EU one did, eliminating some of the main issues that helped destabilize the Empire in the Mid and Outer Rims in the old EU. Finally the fact that both sides did not attack each other after Jakku since the New Republic did not push in like in the old EU makes this make even LESS sense as that leaves the Empire and it's Warlords in possession of nearly all the economic and industrial systems ensuring a strong economic core.

The Empire still does discriminate against Aliens. In the Marvel Star wars comic the Empire is shown to enslave non-humans and even the Thrawn book touches on this. If I was honest it does not make sense for the EU Empire to discriminate against women. In fact it makes more sense for them just to be a Human High Society. Even then you still can say that most women who join the Empire either defect(Iden Veriso and Sabine Wren) or become top members(Governor Pryce, and Rae Salone). This is because most women dont serve in the military because of things like raising children(unless your mandolarians)

Also the reason they surrender was because the Rebel force Mas Amidda(the new imperial leader) at gunpoint to surrender. The NR then order all Imperial weapons be rounded up and destroy. The IR was allow to exist but the NR gave it no protection or a way protecting itself(which led to pirates and rebels to rape, pillage, and attack IR Planets). The NR then demilitarize which outraged people saying that Pirates, crime familes, and rogue states were more of a threat. It was insane.


But also i agree that the Empire still should have been able to hold. Keep in mind the fleet at Endor was the NR fleet at the time. Also it does not make sense for Imperials to follow Operation: Cinder, what also doesnt make sense is why the Emperor would make such a plan. I know he is a asshole, but he was planning to live forever according to Episode 3 and the Darth Vader comics. So i cant find a reason Palps would believe he could be beaten, that's why he lost Endor he was just soo fucking cocky.

Further more lets look at the galaxy at this point.
1. The Empire still controls 90% of the known Galaxy
2. The Rebellion is still to weak.
3. Luke was off doing his own shit
4. Their are no mention Imperial Warlords.
5. The Remnants of the Empire were still working together.
6. Many worlds were not sympathetic to the rebellion.
7. Rax was just one guy.

given that its physically impossible for the Empire to have lost within a year.


Also what was the relative time in BF2? Did Iden defect within days of the Endor or months? Also why did the sentinels instantly activate and one was already on Garrick Veriso's flagship during Endor? Also how many worlds were targeted and why did the NR who received intel about these attacks wait for them to already damage the planet before interfering? Why did the Empire just no reltalitae and send fleets to attack Mon Cal, and Chandrilla? Also why is it that no one but a handful of people questioned Operation: Cinder? Most people who joined the Empire were not really loyal to the Emperor and most were ethical so why Operation: Cinder? Also why did the NR pardon Iden Versio and Del Meeko from war crimes while excuting loyal level officers for war crimes? Also why did the NR desmilitarize?

[Lord Xizer]

The Empire still does discriminate against Aliens. In the Marvel Star wars comic the Empire is shown to enslave non-humans and even the Thrawn book touches on this. If I was honest it does not make sense for the EU Empire to discriminate against women. In fact it makes more sense for them just to be a Human High Society. Even then you still can say that most women who join the Empire either defect(Iden Veriso and Sabine Wren) or become top members(Governor Pryce, and Rae Salone). This is because most women dont serve in the military because of things like raising children(unless your mandolarians)

Also the reason they surrender was because the Rebel force Mas Amidda(the new imperial leader) at gunpoint to surrender. The NR then order all Imperial weapons be rounded up and destroy. The IR was allow to exist but the NR gave it no protection or a way protecting itself(which led to pirates and rebels to rape, pillage, and attack IR Planets). The NR then demilitarize which outraged people saying that Pirates, crime familes, and rogue states were more of a threat. It was insane.


But also i agree that the Empire still should have been able to hold. Keep in mind the fleet at Endor was the NR fleet at the time. Also it does not make sense for Imperials to follow Operation: Cinder, what also doesnt make sense is why the Emperor would make such a plan. I know he is a asshole, but he was planning to live forever according to Episode 3 and the Darth Vader comics. So i cant find a reason Palps would believe he could be beaten, that's why he lost Endor he was just soo fucking cocky.

Further more lets look at the galaxy at this point.
1. The Empire still controls 90% of the known Galaxy
2. The Rebellion is still to weak.
3. Luke was off doing his own shit
4. Their are no mention Imperial Warlords.
5. The Remnants of the Empire were still working together.
6. Many worlds were not sympathetic to the rebellion.
7. Rax was just one guy.

given that its physically impossible for the Empire to have lost within a year.


Also what was the relative time in BF2? Did Iden defect within days of the Endor or months? Also why did the sentinels instantly activate and one was already on Garrick Veriso's flagship during Endor? Also how many worlds were targeted and why did the NR who received intel about these attacks wait for them to already damage the planet before interfering? Why did the Empire just no reltalitae and send fleets to attack Mon Cal, and Chandrilla? Also why is it that no one but a handful of people questioned Operation: Cinder? Most people who joined the Empire were not really loyal to the Emperor and most were ethical so why Operation: Cinder? Also why did the NR pardon Iden Versio and Del Meeko from war crimes while excuting loyal level officers for war crimes? Also why did the NR desmilitarize?

It's nowhere near the scale of the old EU with MASS slavery, genocides, hunting them for sport and the like. Remember that most societies discriminate against women throughout history so it's not far fetched that a High HuMAN Culture would too.

Again forcing the centralized Empire to surrender by holding Mas Amedda hostage(while most of the Empire's war machine and territory is intact would not result in the Empire surrendering, it would result in Mas Amedda being replaced or usurped. This would also further empower the Warlords who would be the only well armed groups left as many would likely flock to their banners.

I agree with you that few if any Imperials would follow Operation Cinder, however such a plan is EXACTLY like the Emperor. Palpatine was a completely self centered psychopath. If he couldn't have it, no one could. Much as Hitler ordered the systematic annihilation of the German industry, food centers and anything in 1945, Palpatine was of similar mind. In cut content in RotJ he gives Moff Jerrjerrod an order to fire on Endor if the shield is destroyed killing all his men there along with the very few rebels out of nothing but pure spite. Even in the EU he's just as deranged, HE directly helped fuel the Imperial Mutiny, he routinely ruined entire worlds for little to no reason. He was a PLAGUE that NEEDED to be killed, even as an Imperial I firmly believe that. Again it's not that Palpatine would MAKE such a plan, it's that ANYONE would follow through with it.

Further more lets look at the galaxy at this point.
1. The Empire still controls 90% of the known Galaxy/ Yup(which they continue to hold as the NR never pushes in)
2. The Rebellion is still to weak.(Pathetically so considering they demilitarize within a year of Endor)
3. Luke was off doing his own shit(Sigh...yeah)
4. Their are no mention Imperial Warlords.(they are hinted at, but nothing on the scale of the EU)
5. The Remnants of the Empire were still working together.(Cooperating at least minimally)
6. Many worlds were not sympathetic to the rebellion.(Again the Rebels in this timeline are far less noble and the Empire less viciously oppressive)
7. Rax was just one guy.(Exactly and even if he was married to the idea of self genocide, convincing the vast majority of the Imperial Leadership to go along would be laughable)

given that its physically impossible for the Empire to have lost within a year.(this I whole heartedly agree with)

[Recursion]

I might need to pick Crimson Empire again and actually finish it

[Ordo]

Try the audiobook, its pretty great.

[Lord Xizer]

I might need to pick Crimson Empire again and actually finish it

I highly recommend it

[Illidan Stormrage]

I wish the Empire was more like the Space Marines in 40k where they are Nazis, but are a required evil in a world like the 40k world.


Also alot of wired choices in the new canon. Like how Star Wars, Star Trek, Lost, Cloverfield, Frigit, and Super 8 are all in the same muilverse reality shit.

[Daanishmalik]

The Carnor Jax era was always one that will be known but still the collapse was inevitable.

[Lord Xizer]

The Carnor Jax era was always one that will be known but still the collapse was inevitable.

The thing is, if R2D2 and Lando hadn't of hacked the Eclipse II's overly automated navigation systems-sending it on it's fateful collision course with the Galaxy gun destroying both and Byss in the process, it would have probably orbitally bombarded Onderon after the Emperor's final death-likely killing Luke, Han, Leia and the few Jedi in the galaxy as well as the Physician and Royal Guard there.
This would have left Byss, the Eclipse II, the Shadow Hand Fleet and the Galaxy Gun all in the Imperial Ruling Council's hands by default-I.E. Jax's hands. With the power to back up his claim to the Throne the Warlords likely remain at least nominally loyal, the New Republic at this point is on the verge of collapse having lost nearly all it's territory and most of it's military to Thrawn and then palpatine's offensives. In this scenario there is no witness to jax's treachery, so Kanos and the remaining Royal Guard have no reason to declare vendettas against Jax, some might even have SERVED him and with access to Palpatine's Dark Side Compendium Jax could well have become a mini Vader(since he died fairly early in his Force training and Lumiya was not fully trained herself we'll never know just how strong he could have become in the Force.)
In this scenario the Galaxy likely does go back to Imperial Rule under Jax.

[Illidan Stormrage]

The thing is, if R2D2 and Lando hadn't of hacked the Eclipse II's overly automated navigation systems-sending it on it's fateful collision course with the Galaxy gun destroying both and Byss in the process, it would have probably orbitally bombarded Onderon after the Emperor's final death-likely killing Luke, Han, Leia and the few Jedi in the galaxy as well as the Physician and Royal Guard there.
This would have left Byss, the Eclipse II, the Shadow Hand Fleet and the Galaxy Gun all in the Imperial Ruling Council's hands by default-I.E. Jax's hands. With the power to back up his claim to the Throne the Warlords likely remain at least nominally loyal, the New Republic at this point is on the verge of collapse having lost nearly all it's territory and most of it's military to Thrawn and then palpatine's offensives. In this scenario there is no witness to jax's treachery, so Kanos and the remaining Royal Guard have no reason to declare vendettas against Jax, some might even have SERVED him and with access to Palpatine's Dark Side Compendium Jax could well have become a mini Vader(since he died fairly early in his Force training and Lumiya was not fully trained herself we'll never know just how strong he could have become in the Force.)
In this scenario the Galaxy likely does go back to Imperial Rule under Jax.

I think Jax would honestly be assassinated later by someone like Jerec, some random dark jedi, or a group of cunning imperials.

[Lord Xizer]

I think Jax would honestly be assassinated later by someone like Jerec, some random dark jedi, or a group of cunning imperials.

Well it's likely though at this point every Dark Jedi of any power or prestige was either supporting Jax, in hiding with no power base or dead.
By this time Jerec had been dead for five years, Sedriss and all the Dark Side Elite were dead save one(that the NR captured) so Dark Side wise that really just leaves Lumiya without her power base..

[Illidan Stormrage]

Well it's likely though at this point every Dark Jedi of any power or prestige was either supporting Jax, in hiding with no power base or dead.
By this time Jerec had been dead for five years, Sedriss and all the Dark Side Elite were dead save one(that the NR captured) so Dark Side wise that really just leaves Lumiya without her power base..

Well the other thing is Thrawn's clone, the vong, or just some random Imperial commanders would take him out.

[Lord Xizer]

Well the other thing is Thrawn's clone, the vong, or just some random Imperial commanders would take him out.

True, but with Thrawn's clone not due for another 6 years, the Vong not due for another almost 10 that pretty much leaves Black Sun's remnants, the back biting of the Imperial Ruling Council and Nom Anor's manipulations of the Council. I'm not saying he would be utterly triumphant or would have lasted, but he had a shot if they had still kept Byss and it's resources.

[Bucman55]

Do you think that's one of the scenarios you'll explore in the submod you're working on?

[Lord Xizer]

Do you think that's one of the scenarios you'll explore in the submod you're working on?

It could be, only thing is it would have to be different from Shadow Hand in that the Warlords go rogue but Jax has the resources of Byss.

[zealot4160]

I wish the Empire was more like the Space Marines in 40k where they are Nazis, but are a required evil in a world like the 40k world.

Wasn't that how Zahn tried to portray Era 5 Empire, with planets considering re-joining for the centralization and protection?

[Lord Xizer]

Wasn't that how Zahn tried to portray Era 5 Empire, with planets considering re-joining for the centralization and protection?

Yes since for about five years the NR tended to let member worlds handle their own issues without interference. This made the central government look weak and promoted lots of brushfire conflicts. Plus after the Imperial Mutiny and devastation of Shadow Hand much of the galaxy stayed neutral and just longed for a return to stability.

[StarBornMichaelh165]

After read about Jax i think he shouldn't had let Byss get destroyed.

[Lord Xizer]

After read about Jax i think he shouldn't had let Byss get destroyed.

He didn't plan on that part, I don't think anyone could have foreseen that sequence of events happening like it did...and also giving R2D2 technically the highest kill count of the heroes.
Jax just planned the Emperor dying while the power structure remained intact with him and the council in control.