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Author Topic: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?  (Read 11359 times)

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May 09, 2017, 04:05:35 PM

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« on: May 09, 2017, 04:05:35 PM »
so, the factions for Ascendancy stand thus:
1.1: Imperial Remnant, New Republic, Empire of the Hand, Pentastar Alignment
1.2: Hapes Consortium
1.3.... who?

now, for the reason i made this.

can the 6th faction be the Hutts?

this would be a faction of pirates, bounty hunters, mercenaries, and crime. this would give you a chance to bring in stuff like the Aggresser Destroyer, Providence Carrier, Kedalbe Battleship, R41, Clutch fighters, Hondo's pirate disk battleships, and other such units.

as of now, there is no hutt faction, and it would be different from the other factions currently in either game. as Corey has said before, while ICW goes Canonical(Legendonical?), Ascendancy is supposed to represent the different faction styles, not actual timeframe. Thus the Hutts would bring something new to the table and fill one of the empty slots
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

May 09, 2017, 04:11:28 PMReply #1

Offline Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2017, 04:11:28 PM »
I thought the 6th faction would be the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium, at least according to the Ascendancy Wiki. Although anything can happen by the time 1.3 comes out.
"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Maybe those nihilist philosophers are right; maybe this is all we can expect of the universe, a relentless crushing of life and spirit, because the equilibrium state of the cosmos is death" - Arthur C. Clarke

"We even ignited the first atomic bomb on the day commemorating the transfiguration of Christ, thus unconsciously signaling that we intended likewise to transform the world, not only after the light but after darkness - with a blast that burned several times hotter than the surface of the sun." - Stanislav Grof, "Human Survival and Consciousness Evolution"


May 09, 2017, 04:22:05 PMReply #2

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2017, 04:22:05 PM »
the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium is the most likely choice.

Unless you throw in other ideas such as:
The Vong/Peace Brigade (GOD NO)
The Duskan League(it be kind of cool since they would have unique culture)
Zsinj's Empire(we should at least have Zsinj as a faction since they could have a more unique set of tech upgrades. I would also argue that Zsinj's Empire is a just like the PA a splinter Faction, Not a warlord state, even though he is called Warlord Zsinj)
A custom Imperial splinter faction with unique tech trees revolving around being independent of the Empire(Unlikely)
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May 09, 2017, 04:31:12 PMReply #3

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2017, 04:31:12 PM »
Corey has said it won't be another imperial. i think he also said that the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium would remain how it is, it would require the same overhaul as Hapes, which they are doing, and EoTH, which they have done. the Hutt faction, by comparison, would just need models, not whole new designs, like for the Ssi-Ruuvi.

as for the Duskhan League, 99% of their stuff is Imperial, so that would have the same problem as the Ssi-Ruuvi, with Corey having to design and make a bunch of stuff for them they never used.

as for Vong/Peace brigade... let's leave that in the trash and Vong mods
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

May 09, 2017, 05:01:12 PMReply #4

Offline Corey

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2017, 05:01:12 PM »
The PA was feasible because within the category of "Imperial" there were (barely) enough options in tech and abilities to make those two function differently. Now that you have the regimes in the regular IR tech tree, that's stretched even more. Sure, Zsinj could have or or two unique things, like trying to gimmick something with nightcloaks, but unless you have concrete examples of what it actually means to express other differences through unique tech, they basically end up as the same thing. Like, do we give them research that gives them 10% more culture repression than the IR/PA? Maybe 10% more damage but fewer of the same ship? Is that really enough, expressed basically through the same ships and abilities, to actually be a different faction? There's only so different you can make fleets of Star Destroyers within the same basic set of game mechanics, and there's other groups that aren't Imperial, and do have far more variance not just in ship roster but in what those factions were actually about or capable of. Especially when you have such strict memory limits and faction slot limitations. This is why there was the choice of Daala or Zsinj for the third Imperial regime- there's some things we can do that would have made him worthy of an Imperial regime tree, like nightcloaks if there were a good mechanic for them, respawning SSD hero, and faster research, but two of those are just fine through Daala and not really something we need in another place as well.
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May 09, 2017, 05:06:17 PMReply #5

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2017, 05:06:17 PM »
you haven't answered my initial question
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

May 09, 2017, 05:16:43 PMReply #6

Offline Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2017, 05:16:43 PM »
Well I wouldn't mind the Hutts as a faction, but it kinda feels wrong having them ahead of other more military-based factions, since the Hutt Cartel were more of an Underworld organization, and mostly applied other methods rather than pure military intervention. They had mercs and pirates fighting for their money, of course, but still it wasn't much of a force, and Hutts would rather bribe someone then engage them in open warfare, and they usually didn't openly oppose strong factions such as the various Imperial splinter groups or the New Republic. Just from a lore point of view, the Hutt Cartel doesn't feel like the right choice, but that's only my opinion. Also, having them use the Kedalbe and the Aggressor would feel to much like the base game Zann Consortium, imo. But I'm up for whatever Corey decides to do, I'm sure it'll be great either way, I have complete trust in him and the TR team.

P.S.: An Underworld group fighting large-scale open wars against the Empire and the Rebel Alliance was my problem with the base FoC, too, btw. It just didn't really make sence, even though all of the corruption mechanics were interesting, and really fit the faction well lorewise, but it only made the Consortium very OP overall.
"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Maybe those nihilist philosophers are right; maybe this is all we can expect of the universe, a relentless crushing of life and spirit, because the equilibrium state of the cosmos is death" - Arthur C. Clarke

"We even ignited the first atomic bomb on the day commemorating the transfiguration of Christ, thus unconsciously signaling that we intended likewise to transform the world, not only after the light but after darkness - with a blast that burned several times hotter than the surface of the sun." - Stanislav Grof, "Human Survival and Consciousness Evolution"


May 09, 2017, 05:54:04 PMReply #7

Offline Corey

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2017, 05:54:04 PM »
Quote
you haven't answered my initial question

We've given hints in the past (to the point of basically giving it away), and people can speculate all they want, but you're not going to get an answer from me in here. I may clarify our positions on some stuff, but when we announce a faction, it'll be in news posts.

Quote
as Corey has said before, while ICW goes Canonical(Legendonical?), Ascendancy is supposed to represent the different faction styles, not actual timeframe.

Not quite. It's more that the timeline is a bit less meaningful, since in ICW we're more recreating specific scenarios, but in Ascendancy we're sort of grabbing from within that timeline and progression is more tech than story. So, for example, if the Vong were hypothetically an Ascendancy faction  or random event or something, you could end up with the PA fighting the Vong because of how Sins works, which wouldn't be a very likely scenario for us to cover in ICW.

Quote
Well I wouldn't mind the Hutts as a faction, but it kinda feels wrong having them ahead of other more military-based factions, since the Hutt Cartel were more of an Underworld organization, and mostly applied other methods rather than pure military intervention. They had mercs and pirates fighting for their money, of course, but still it wasn't much of a force, and Hutts would rather bribe someone then engage them in open warfare, and they usually didn't openly oppose strong factions such as the various Imperial splinter groups or the New Republic. Just from a lore point of view, the Hutt Cartel doesn't feel like the right choice, but that's only my opinion. Also, having them use the Kedalbe and the Aggressor would feel to much like the base game Zann Consortium, imo. But I'm up for whatever Corey decides to do, I'm sure it'll be great either way, I have complete trust in him and the TR team.

This was actually a bit more true a few years ago than it is now. The Legends treatment of the Hutts has evolved a little, from my understanding. It used to be a lot more what you're talking about, but since they joined the Confederacy in Legacy of the Force, they've been presented as having a bit more autonomy, and ability to field a fleet if not always the desire. The Kajidic system did mean they focused far more on economics than warfare, but considering two of the three named ship classes they contributed to the Confederacy (being the Chelandion and the Tarrada, with the third being the Batil) were used in the Hutt-Xim war 25,000 years prior, they seemed to have some understanding that they may need that kind of military presence again. The Vong War basically showed them they couldn't rely on mercenaries in the face of a full-blown invasion. Considering the Republic's crusades against them even after the Kajidic system rejected war, it wouldn't surprise me if they had an emergency reserve fleet the whole time, but that's just my interpretation.

Quote
P.S.: An Underworld group fighting large-scale open wars against the Empire and the Rebel Alliance was my problem with the base FoC, too, btw. It just didn't really make sence, even though all of the corruption mechanics were interesting, and really fit the faction well lorewise, but it only made the Consortium very OP overall.

Used to bother me, too, but I'm actually fine with it now. For the campaign, which is the only events that are to be taken as part of the actual story, you weren't really taking over many planets (and to the extent that you did, it was pretty clearly emphasized that "controlling" a planet for them as pretty lose), the emphasis was on the piracy aspects, and the planets where they had significant presence were backwater worlds with leftover military capabilities but not places the Empire would have been particularly concentrated in power.
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May 09, 2017, 06:20:38 PMReply #8

Offline Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2017, 06:20:38 PM »
This was actually a bit more true a few years ago than it is now. The Legends treatment of the Hutts has evolved a little, from my understanding. It used to be a lot more what you're talking about, but since they joined the Confederacy in Legacy of the Force, they've been presented as having a bit more autonomy, and ability to field a fleet if not always the desire. The Kajidic system did mean they focused far more on economics than warfare, but considering two of the three named ship classes they contributed to the Confederacy (being the Chelandion and the Tarrada, with the third being the Batil) were used in the Hutt-Xim war 25,000 years prior, they seemed to have some understanding that they may need that kind of military presence again. The Vong War basically showed them they couldn't rely on mercenaries in the face of a full-blown invasion. Considering the Republic's crusades against them even after the Kajidic system rejected war, it wouldn't surprise me if they had an emergency reserve fleet the whole time, but that's just my interpretation.

Used to bother me, too, but I'm actually fine with it now. For the campaign, which is the only events that are to be taken as part of the actual story, you weren't really taking over many planets (and to the extent that you did, it was pretty clearly emphasized that "controlling" a planet for them as pretty lose), the emphasis was on the piracy aspects, and the planets where they had significant presence were backwater worlds with leftover military capabilities but not places the Empire would have been particularly concentrated in power.

Yes, of course the Hutts weren't always only relying on their money and various scumbag methods to achieve their goals, I meant mostly in the timeframe of the TR mods. It was a completely different story in the old Republic days. As for Legacy of the Force and stuff, I regret to say I'm not really up to date with most of it  ;D But I'm not opposed to the concept of them having a strong military presense, and even with all of my reservations I still played the hell out of FoC back in the day, and a lot of the time as the ZC. Again, whatever you decide to do, you have my vote in advance. Even though I think I'm pretty sure who the 6th Ascendancy faction will be  :)

P.S.: Writing about Kedalbe and Aggressor earlier in response to DarthRevansRevenge I mixed up ICW and Ascendancy, however my point still stands, it'll be like the Ascendancy version of FoC's ZC then.
"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Maybe those nihilist philosophers are right; maybe this is all we can expect of the universe, a relentless crushing of life and spirit, because the equilibrium state of the cosmos is death" - Arthur C. Clarke

"We even ignited the first atomic bomb on the day commemorating the transfiguration of Christ, thus unconsciously signaling that we intended likewise to transform the world, not only after the light but after darkness - with a blast that burned several times hotter than the surface of the sun." - Stanislav Grof, "Human Survival and Consciousness Evolution"


May 09, 2017, 06:37:19 PMReply #9

Offline Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2017, 06:37:19 PM »
I'm starting to recall the earlier discussions on this topic now, and yeah, I don't think it's the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium after all, but maybe another aggressive extra-galactic faction with a triple name. Anyway, we'll see.

i think he also said that the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium would remain how it is

You're absolutely right. I forgot that Corey already addressed that, and I even forgot that the SR were already in 1.0. I need to get some sleep.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 06:39:45 PM by Major Grodin Tierce »
"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Maybe those nihilist philosophers are right; maybe this is all we can expect of the universe, a relentless crushing of life and spirit, because the equilibrium state of the cosmos is death" - Arthur C. Clarke

"We even ignited the first atomic bomb on the day commemorating the transfiguration of Christ, thus unconsciously signaling that we intended likewise to transform the world, not only after the light but after darkness - with a blast that burned several times hotter than the surface of the sun." - Stanislav Grof, "Human Survival and Consciousness Evolution"


May 09, 2017, 09:47:35 PMReply #10

Offline Revanchist

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2017, 09:47:35 PM »
Nah, the Ssi-Ruuvi will get a full faction status. I will see it done by myself if need be.
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May 09, 2017, 10:27:14 PMReply #11

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2017, 10:27:14 PM »
I was going to post a list of units tech and heroes to challenge Corey on the claim Zsinj has little tech.
But it got deleted by my brother(NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)

but I will make a short summary.

Heroes
Zsinj
Apwar Trigit
Zuel Darillan
Razor's kiss(unlock from tech that allows you to steal one)

Special units:
Neutron star
tie raptors
Executor
allegiance
custom CR90s the ones with tractor beams
Nebulous
quasars
ISD or ISD ll
VSD l and VSD ll
Strike crusiers
Gozanti crusisers(my bro likes those)
Lukerhaulks(We might want to remove those from the PA then and replace them with another one)


Tech( you would decide how they work)
CSA navy
night cloaks
rancor base
CSA
Raptors
His business influence
His recruitment of intelligence officers
Locking down his sector to keep a tight grip
his special projects
his theft of razor's kiss


Their maybe more but I would love to have a conversation with Corey over discord about this and why it would work

« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 10:32:27 PM by AdmrialThrawn2 »
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May 09, 2017, 10:39:23 PMReply #12

Offline Mr.Puerto

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2017, 10:39:23 PM »
I was going to post a list of units tech and heroes to challenge Corey on the claim Zsinj has little tech.
But it got deleted by my brother(NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)

but I will make a short summary.

Heroes
Zsinj
Apwar Trigit
Zuel Darillan

Special units:
Neutron star
tie raptors
Executor
allegiance
custom CR90s the ones with tractor beams

Tech( you would decide how they work
CSA navy
night cloaks
rancor base
CSA
Raptors
His business influence
His recruitment of intelligence officers
Locking down his sector to keep a tight grip

Their maybe more but I would love to have a conversation with Corey over discord about this and why it would work

No offense but all the special units you suggest don't really change game-play up too much. The IR has the Executor and the allegiance, the Neutron Star would seem out of place. Tie Raptors are pretty much a reskinned TIE Defender and would have no uniqueness. If Zsinj was a faction it would just be an awkward combination of both IR and PA which wouldn't be fun at all.

Same thing with the Tech Tree, if you want a navy similar to the CSA that's the PentaStar
Night Cloaks could theoretically work as an in game system but there's already a superweapon faction, so there's no need for a second one.
Rancor base is just a Naval command station with a dry dock
CSA, same thing as Pentastar,
Raptors maybe faster siege damage but that's still IR
Business influence that's still Pentastar,
Intel officers, IR
Locking down sectors IR

The point of having different factions is have a big difference between each faction, even the PA and IR have a huge difference in terms of game play and strategy and their both Imps. Adding Zsinj as a different faction would just be boring.


“In this world, whenever there is light, there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exist, there must also be losers. The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars and hatred is born to protect love.“


May 09, 2017, 11:28:50 PMReply #13

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2017, 11:28:50 PM »
No offense but all the special units you suggest don't really change game-play up too much. The IR has the Executor and the allegiance, the Neutron Star would seem out of place. Tie Raptors are pretty much a reskinned TIE Defender and would have no uniqueness. If Zsinj was a faction it would just be an awkward combination of both IR and PA which wouldn't be fun at all.

Same thing with the Tech Tree, if you want a navy similar to the CSA that's the PentaStar
Night Cloaks could theoretically work as an in game system but there's already a superweapon faction, so there's no need for a second one.
Rancor base is just a Naval command station with a dry dock
CSA, same thing as Pentastar,
Raptors maybe faster siege damage but that's still IR
Business influence that's still Pentastar,
Intel officers, IR
Locking down sectors IR

The point of having different factions is have a big difference between each faction, even the PA and IR have a huge difference in terms of game play and strategy and their both Imps. Adding Zsinj as a different faction would just be boring.

as I said I had a longer version explaining this more for you. I just lost it after my brother deleted it.

Mr. Puerto how about on Saturday we talk on discord and see if we could make a Zsinj faction work?
I already have a few unique techs
 
Raptors: Raptors are the Elite forces of Zsinj capable of helping drastically spread his influence. For Example: if a NR fleet takes a planet on my border the influence of my faction grows because my citizens fear the EVIL NR will hostilely take me over. This could also allow for many neutral systems to join solely because they fear takeover by the NR

(this one has a bad name) Land Grabs: Zisnj used alias to buy up land decreasing population but rather giving more industrial slots on your planets even after you max out the logistics capacity.

(this one you need to read the Zsinj book) Underworld: Zsinj's allies are all over the underworld finding intel. (this allows Zsinj to either A: locate a artifact, or B locate planets controlled by other factions. it would only detect one planet and it will not be their capitol)

Moffs approval: Zsinj's actions seem to impress the moffs who still considered him on their side.(the faction negotiates better with the IR but decreases negotiation with PA)

tie droids(Hear me out) some of the false 181st tie fighters were droids that would blow up. so Zsinj deploys them from his ship and they have the ability ti Kamikaze into ships damaging them.

Second Death: convert razor's kiss into a heavily armor target with no weapons(allows for a fleet to be distracted like the bulwark ability but bigger)

Hire out:
Ships cost less but  fleet up keep goes up do to Zsinj recruiting rogue imperials like Trigit and needing more repairs and crew.

That secret plan trigit and Zsinj had in wraith squadron(research for Mr. Puerto)

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May 09, 2017, 11:43:42 PMReply #14

Offline Helix345

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2017, 11:43:42 PM »
personally, seeing as there is only one slot left, I would really prefer to have a non imperial faction rather than zinji.

May 10, 2017, 12:21:24 AMReply #15

Offline Mr.Puerto

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2017, 12:21:24 AM »

Again Zsinj just seems too similar to the IR and PA. Having more uniqueness would fit the mod better than shoehorning in Zsinj and really stretching the tech tree to make it seem "unique" there's already two factions with triangle ships no need for a third
“In this world, whenever there is light, there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exist, there must also be losers. The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars and hatred is born to protect love.“


May 10, 2017, 12:38:10 AMReply #16

Offline Corey

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2017, 12:38:10 AM »
Units alone don't tend to change up gameplay, especially when the military doctrines are the same between factions and again, the core of those factions' rosters would be the same (two of the ships you've listed there already exist in the Remnant)- what is it those units actually do that makes them different? TIE Raptors may look different, but they're just a couple health and damage adjustments off from being a Scimitar, or an A-Wing. You're not really gonna justify a faction that way. And it has to be that way, because it still has to be an Imperial faction. If you throw in too much other stuff to differentiate them, it ceases to be a good representation of Zsinj or the Empire, and then what's the point anymore? When you think of "iconic" Zsinj stuff, everything except the Raptors is either already in the Remnant, PA, or New Republic.

And for the rest of the tech suggestions, they're different presentations (different text and an icon) to what ultimately becomes the same substance, and even the presentation doesn't end up being substantially different. What I'm asking you isn't a list of things to rename Imperial tech to, it's what the actual substance of that would be. What, as a player, would you actually be doing differently playing Zsinj rather than the Empire or the PA?

Quote
Locking down his sector to keep a tight grip
What difference does a faction calling their focus on culture suppression actually have whether we call it Inquestors for the PA, or something else for the Remnant and Zsinj? The end result is still just a faction full of triangles focusing less on expansion through culture and more on shutting that culture down, and we already have two of them. Nightcloaks at least provide a different expression of that focus, in that you build it as a way to shut down culture getting to or past a planet, but you also kill off your population there. That's an actual difference, but again, not enough to justify a whole faction off of.

Quote
His business influence

The New Republic and the Pentastar Alignment are already heavily economy-focused, with the Pa having a big emphasis on their business or corporate aspects specifically.

Quote
rancor base

Having a name for his base doesn't really tell us anything about him. Doesn't influence playstyle. It's, at best, a name for an as-yet unspecified tech.

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Raptors: Raptors are the Elite forces of Zsinj capable of helping drastically spread his influence. For Example: if a NR fleet takes a planet on my border the influence of my faction grows because my citizens fear the EVIL NR will hostilely take me over. This could also allow for many neutral systems to join solely because they fear takeover by the NR

Can't be a thing in Sins. But really, every faction is always going to border on other factions. What this does is make a faction with really strong cultural suppression also become really strong at spreading their culture, specifically against a faction where that's supposed to be their basis in this example.

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(this one has a bad name) Land Grabs: Zisnj used alias to buy up land decreasing population but rather giving more industrial slots on your planets even after you max out the logistics capacity.

All factions have logistic structure increases, but if you were to give Zsinj more, what that really does is make him stronger economically and culturally, which just reinforces the economic power of the faction (which ultimately means their  individual trade ports have to be weaker, since they shouldn't out-trade the NR and PA) and the power of their broadcast centers has to be reduced, since they shouldn't be more repressive than Palpatine's Dark Empire or be able to spread more easily than the New Republic.

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(this one you need to read the Zsinj book) Underworld: Zsinj's allies are all over the underworld finding intel. (this allows Zsinj to either A: locate a artifact, or B locate planets controlled by other factions. it would only detect one planet and it will not be their capitol)

Artifacts (holocrons) are placed by the game automatically at the start, and the only way to find them is to use that upgrade on the planet. You can't add a mechanic for the game to automatically tell you beyond the ones that already exist, which it already does in a few places. the other doesn't sound too dissimilar from the Imperial probe droids, or other spy abilities that already exist (and don't really differentiate how those factions play, for those that have them).

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Moffs approval: Zsinj's actions seem to impress the moffs who still considered him on their side.(the faction negotiates better with the IR but decreases negotiation with PA)

You can set baseline relations with other factions, and then the modifiers through research are Self and Other- you can't specify a tech to increase with one and decrease another.




I again maintain that while Zsinj has enough to make a different branch of the Remnant, it's not enough to justify a faction slot. Look at it this way. Ignore all the minutiae of specific techs, ignore ship x vs ship y.  You can generally boil a faction's focus down to a few sentences talking about their playstyle.

Empire of the Hand: Fast, fragile ships good for hit and runs. Strong fortifications. Focus on individual ship quality. Somewhat isolated, so weaker trade and economy overall, focus on own resource extraction. Culturally neutral. Benefits little from high-population worlds, a lot from resource rich worlds.

Imperial Remnant: Economy strength comes from exploitation of population, less trade focused. Quantity over quality (ship-focused). Fleets of weaker ships centered around a focal point, usually Executor. Quick ship production. Strong culture oppression/suppression esp. with strong military presence, weak spreading. Benefits most from high population worlds. Capable of strong fortifications. Low upkeep costs
WITH PALPATINE: Scorched earth approach, superweapon focused.

Pentastar Alignment: High trade income, lower taxation income. Weaker resource extraction. Quick ship production, quantity over quality (fighter focused). Carrier-swarm approach, lacks fleet focal point that Remnant has. Culturally oppressive. Strong supply lines, but weaker fortifications.

New Republic: Durable ships, effective but more limited fighters. Quality over quantity, smallest fleets. Diplomacy focused, strongest when fighting in own culture. Very good at spreading culture, establishing trade.

Hapes Consortium: Economically strong, concentrated on capital planet. Middle ground of quantity vs quality for ships leaning towards quantity, stronger output but weaker defenses but combat effectiveness is based primarily on abilities, initial stages of battle. Easy to make diplomatic ties with other factions. Middle ground culturally.

And, for some other examples of what I mean, using things brought up in the thread:

Hutt Cartels: Weak early game ships rely on militia/pirate friendliness. Very strong economy through both trade and taxes, weak resource output. Ship strength primarily comes through upgrades on individual ships, low initial prices but high upkeep for mercenary crews.

Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium: Weak economy, overall. Quantity over quality to the extreme, both ships and fighters. Entechment means benefits from successful engagements being built upon, raiding before engaging. Automatic resupply, upkeep draws energy from planets via entechment instead of credits. Difficult to spread culture, but fighting within culture provides strong bonuses.

Yuuzhan Vong Empire: Weak economy, strong resource output. Basically cannot be penetrated culturally, cannot take over through culture. Very strong individual ships. Lack shields, high regeneration. Dovin Basals mean high chance for enemy weapons to do no damage at all, must be concentrated.

This is basically what I mean. If you were to lay out Zsinj, sure, we could swap out a handful of ships for some more obscure Imperial designs (though there still has to be a similar core, because he's still gotta be Imperial). Yes, there's some specific abilities which could be fairly unique (mostly just nightcloaks, everything else is a variation on an ability that exists elsewhere, but with different stats). Also, being research focused isn't really saying how they wanna play-you can rank these factions by how much they wanna research as well, and Daala and the EotH give some reseach bonuses, but research is always in service of some other thing, which then itself goes into one of the above qualities. Does it increase the quanitity of ships like the PA/IR focus on? Does it bring up the quality like for the NR? Does it introduce or impact a mechanic unique to that faction, which significantly changes the way that faction is played as or against, like Entechment or Dovin Basals?

Sometimes having a unique aesthetic can be a bonus acting for a faction that's less unique otherwise, but here Zsinj still loses out- he's an Imperial with some Rebel stuff.


So, what would a theoretical Zsinj roster look like, anyways?

Titan - Executor (already on Remnant)

Capital - Lucrehulk (through CSA). Won't be on the PA anymore, but brings him in the fighter swarm direction, which is PA territory.
Capital - ISDI (already on Remnant)
Capital - ISDII (already on Remnant)
Capital - Allegiance (already on Remnant)
Capital - ?

Cruiser - VSDI (VSDs were a big part of the CSA, so if we're basing some tech off of that, he should get VSDs)
Cruiser - VSDII (already on Remnant)
Cruiser - Strike Cruiser (already on Remnant)
Cruiser - Dreadnaught (already on Remnant)
Cruiser - Recusant (from CSA)

Frigate - Mu (basic scout)
Frigate - Lambda (basic lander)
Frigate - CR90/Lancer (already on New Rep/Remnant)
Frigate - Nebulon-B (already on Remnant)
Frigate - Carrack (already on Remnant)
Frigate - Neutron Star

Really, the only unique units he can get would be through the CSA connection.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 01:05:06 AM by Corey »
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May 10, 2017, 05:14:08 AMReply #17

Offline kucsidave

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2017, 05:14:08 AM »
Also in the fighter department we might be able to change the Defender to the Raptors, but there is nothing to replace the Scimitarts in the supperiority bomber department, which would not fit Zsinj either anyway. Other than that only TIE fighters, bombers and interceptors which are IR/PA once again.
No matter how we see it Zsinj is a no-good in terms of new factions. And I am not even part of the Ascendancy team, so don't treat this as a mod team member stuff, just another player's oppinion.
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May 10, 2017, 10:11:16 AMReply #18

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2017, 10:11:16 AM »
so, if it were possible to squeeze a fourth tech out of the IR, i would do it for zsinj, but not as a new faction.
Same with the duskhan league, if we look at that, here is what we would find

Titan: Executor(Remnant)

Capital: Impstar I(Remnant)
Capital: Impstar II(Remnant)
Capital: Aramadia(design needed, super heavy capital)
Capital:
Capital:

Frigate: Victory(Remnant)
Frigate:
Frigate:
Frigate:
Frigate:

Corvette: Thrust Ship


and this is just what i can think of off the top of my head. the Duskhan league is a bad choice as well. 99% of their stuff is imperial or rebel, and the playstyle would be close to imperial, but xenophobic

the Vong would not be in their own era, and thus would likely overpower everyone and everything, which would mean they are the only faction anyone plays.
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

May 10, 2017, 10:31:06 AMReply #19

Offline Revanchist

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Re: 4 down, 1 in progress... who's left?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2017, 10:31:06 AM »
The Vong would not be in their own era, and thus would likely overpower everyone and everything, which would mean they are the only faction anyone plays.

Absolutely not true. Disregarding at the moment the fact that Corey and Co. will ensure balance is always maintained when the Vong are added, the ships used in the fight against the Vong were pretty much the same ships we see in the mod: New Class, ISDs, etc.
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