Assualt Gunboat and TIE-Avenger

[DScipio]

While I was falling in love with the mod, somtimes I noticed a terrible hole...

The Xg1 Assualt Gunboat (and the TIE Avenger) was missing  . Is there anyway or any plan to introduce them?

The Gunboat and TIE Avenger could be what the purchase fighters are for the Republic, while beeing a bit more expensive.

Especially the Gunboat is a very iconic ship for the Empire and I think one of the most loved ones.

It could be similiar to the Y-Wing, beeing a bit faster and swaping Torpedos for C.-Missles.



The TIE-Avengers would be the cheaper TIE-Defender and better TIE-Interceptor and would fill the gap between them very well. TIE-Defenders never saw high production numbers, and the TIE-Avenger was more focused on the Interceptor/Superiority Fighter role, that the "Deal with everything" Defender.


even our most beloved Sith Lord found the Avenger "Impressive".

[SentrY]

If i am understanding you question correctly then the gunboats are indeed in the game for both the PA and IR (era 3-5) they are not buyable, but they are able to spawn with certain frigates.
I do not know about the avenger though :/

[kucsidave]

If i am understanding you question correctly then the gunboats are indeed in the game for both the PA and IR (era 3-5) they are not buyable, but they are able to spawn with certain frigates.

Since when?
I think you are mistaking them with the pentastar's V-19 Torrents.
I think he is talking about these Gunboats

While I was falling in love with the mod, somtimes I noticed a terrible hole...
The Xg1 Assualt Gunboat (and the TIE Avenger) was missing  . Is there anyway or any plan to introduce them?
The Gunboat and TIE Avenger could be what the purchase fighters are for the Republic, while beeing a bit more expensive.
Especially the Gunboat is a very iconic ship for the Empire and I think one of the most loved ones.
It could be similiar to the Y-Wing, beeing a bit faster and swaping Torpedos for C.-Missles.

The problem is that the ship would bring nothing new to the table what would not be covered by the TIE Bomber and/or the TIE Scimitar, It would just be a small variation somewhere between the two.

The TIE-Avengers would be the cheaper TIE-Defender and better TIE-Interceptor and would fill the gap between them very well. TIE-Defenders never saw high production numbers, and the TIE-Avenger was more focused on the Interceptor/Superiority Fighter role, that the "Deal with everything" Defender.
even our most beloved Sith Lord found the Avenger "Impressive".

The problem with the Avenger is the same. It brings nothing new to the table other than variation or a placeholder unit between the Defender and Interceptor, therefore nobody would buy them, since Defenders are better and Interceptors come free with the Capitals.
Also they only saw very limited deployment due to their high production cost.
And yes, Vader found them "impressive", but that was well before Endor

And now about both:
There is already some discussion in the forums that the purchasable fighters are ineffective unless it is the Defender which is supposed to be overpowered, since it was in canon. Also there is so much space in the buildbars, which are starting to be overfilled either way, so another unit (which also have no real use) would just make the problem even more prominent.
And there is also the case of program size by this point. I don't know if you noticed, but 2.1 is already larger than the base game.
3.54 GB for EaW + FoC
4.85 GB for ICW 2.1
The team is actually trying to compress the size as much as possible, so it won't take a million years to load ICW 2.2
Maybe if there is a future release we will consider it for that, but for 2.2 they don't really have a place or purpose.

[tlmiller]

The problem is that the ship would bring nothing new to the table what would not be covered by the TIE Bomber and/or the TIE Scimitar, It would just be a small variation somewhere between the two.

It's not the Tie Scimitar.  It's the Scimitar Assault Bomber.  It has only a single ion engine, so cannot be a tie (since the T stands for twin).  Just being pendantic.

[Corey]

And now about both:
There is already some discussion in the forums that the purchasable fighters are ineffective unless it is the Defender which is supposed to be overpowered, since it was in canon. Also there is so much space in the buildbars, which are starting to be overfilled either way, so another unit (which also have no real use) would just make the problem even more prominent.
And there is also the case of program size by this point. I don't know if you noticed, but 2.1 is already larger than the base game.
3.54 GB for EaW + FoC
4.85 GB for ICW 2.1
The team is actually trying to compress the size as much as possible, so it won't take a million years to load ICW 2.2
Maybe if there is a future release we will consider it for that, but for 2.2 they don't really have a place or purpose.

That doesn't really apply with fighters. They take up very small amounts of filespace, and while filespace is a concern, it's more to do with backgrounds, props, etc for ICW. Units are a bit of a concern, but nowhere near as much as Ascendancy. We're trying to give at least one unique fighter per Imperial group, but beyond that we just have more important stuff we have to do with the resources at this point.


The XG-1 was more pre-Endor, though, with all the Zaarin stuff. It never seems to get mentioned by anything after that, and it was supplanted by the Missile Boat, which was itself removed from operation by the time of Endor, since the Emperor recalled them.

The TIE Avenger, aside from Maarek Steele's, was also rarely if ever used after Endor, however it at least isn't specifically mentioned to have been discontinued or supplanted like the other stuff, so it has a higher chance of being used in the future, if we need an additional TIE model.

[Jorritkarwehr]

On the subject of Imperial fighters, has the V38 assault fighter ever been considered for inclusion? Not that it really appeared very much, but it's a medium end TIE with (probably) a hyperdrive, so it might make a nice buildable fighter for some faction. Of course, it might also lead to "bug" reports of TIE Phantoms not being able to cloak, so that's probably not a point in its favor.

[DarthRevansRevenge]

wait... Tie Phantoms are making the cut? how did i miss this? which faction is it for?

[Jorritkarwehr]

That seems unlikely, given that they were basically all destroyed. I'm asking about the basic design that didn't have a cloaking device.

[DScipio]

Since when?
I think you are mistaking them with the pentastar's V-19 Torrents.
I think he is talking about these GunboatsThe problem is that the ship would bring nothing new to the table what would not be covered by the TIE Bomber and/or the TIE Scimitar, It would just be a small variation somewhere between the two.The problem with the Avenger is the same. It brings nothing new to the table other than variation or a placeholder unit between the Defender and Interceptor, therefore nobody would buy them, since Defenders are better and Interceptors come free with the Capitals.
Also they only saw very limited deployment due to their high production cost.
And yes, Vader found them "impressive", but that was well before Endor

And now about both:
There is already some discussion in the forums that the purchasable fighters are ineffective unless it is the Defender which is supposed to be overpowered, since it was in canon. Also there is so much space in the buildbars, which are starting to be overfilled either way, so another unit (which also have no real use) would just make the problem even more prominent.
And there is also the case of program size by this point. I don't know if you noticed, but 2.1 is already larger than the base game.
3.54 GB for EaW + FoC
4.85 GB for ICW 2.1
The team is actually trying to compress the size as much as possible, so it won't take a million years to load ICW 2.2
Maybe if there is a future release we will consider it for that, but for 2.2 they don't really have a place or purpose.

It would bring something new:

The Gunboat would be the only real fighter bomber of the Imperium. Worse bomber than the TIE-Bomber, but also much better at dogfighting. Further its a ship with a hyperdrive and would bring the Empire a Fighter reaction force. Its also much much cheaper than the TIE Defender, that never saw widespread use.

To say the XG1 would bring nothing new (despite beeing one of the most popular craft) is like saying the DP20 brings nothing new beside the CR90, and that while we have a Nebulon B2 beside the Neb-B.

Same for the Avenger. The Defender should be an very expensive elite Fighter,  opening a slot for a more affordable Hyperspace fighter TIE. Even more so as the Avenger is a dedicated fighter like the Interceptor while the Defender is a fighter bomber. What you say is that the Imperium is fine with the Interceptor as the last tier Interceptor/Fighter.

And you cant really say: The Neb-B2 and the most ugliest bomber of Star Wars should be in, but the Xg1 not because it would make the mod too large.

[kucsidave]

It would bring something new:
The Gunboat would be the only real fighter bomber of the Imperium. Worse bomber than the TIE-Bomber, but also much better at dogfighting. Further its a ship with a hyperdrive and would bring the Empire a Fighter reaction force. Its also much much cheaper than the TIE Defender, that never saw widespread use.
To say the XG1 would bring nothing new (despite beeing one of the most popular craft) is like saying the DP20 brings nothing new beside the CR90, and that while we have a Nebulon B2 beside the Neb-B.

How popular a craft is does not factor into game mechanics. If it should be a fighter-bomber as you say, where should we put it? The problem is that the empire is already pretty powerful in the first 3 era, and should be weaker than the opponents in Era 4 and 5.
We are open to suggestions, but please specify what are your intentions it to be, because I can see no place for it.

Same for the Avenger. The Defender should be an very expensive elite Fighter,  opening a slot for a more affordable Hyperspace fighter TIE. Even more so as the Avenger is a dedicated fighter like the Interceptor while the Defender is a fighter bomber. What you say is that the Imperium is fine with the Interceptor as the last tier Interceptor/Fighter.

The Empire is not fine with just them, that's why they have the TIE Droid, A-9 Vigilance, the Preybird and the I-7 Howlrunner next to the already mentioned Scimitar bombers. They are upgrading, just not as much as everyone else does, which is intended.

And you cant really say: The Neb-B2 and the most ugliest bomber of Star Wars should be in, but the Xg1 not because it would make the mod too large.

I can clearly see that you have something against the Neb-B2 and that it should not exist with the Neb-B. But the two actually have different roles in the game. the B2 has better weaponry and survivability in general, but has no fighters, while the B is weaker, but has it's fighter escort. This result in the two having different roles. The B is more of a support ship, while the B2 is more of a front line ship existing to soak up damage.

And all of this said and done, it is still a fact that separately purchased fighters still remain ineffective(something a few topics already cover here) with the added fact that the AI still tend to spam them(something we are trying to fix).

and the most ugliest bomber of Star Wars should be in,

Design an what is ugly and what isn't is a subject of change from people to people. I actually really like the Scimitar's design because it reflects that efficency was placed over aesthetics.

[DScipio]

My suggestion would be:

Make the Defender more expensive and more lethal (not proportional).

The Xg1 gets Y-Wing stats but Missles and is a bit faster/better dogfighter. It should be more expensive than X-Wings and Y-Wings. Only buildable, not included on any ships. I cant find the stats right now, but would be pleased to suggest something once I see them.

It wouldn`t boost the empires strenght (you say this yourself at the end of you comment: inefective) but would make different playstyles possible for AI and humans, and I think that alone is a large benefit. I only mentioned that is so very popular, because I think a lot of people would be happy to see it in the mod.

The TIE Droid, A-9 Vigilance, the Preybird and the I-7 Howlrunner are all fine and nice, but they are all not as iconic and wide loved as the Xg1 and most not even more fitting to the time frame than the Gunboat.

And I love the concept of the Neb-B2 but my point is, that everything you said about the Xg1 (no role) is more true about the B2. My point is: Both have their role, not neither.

btw: There was no more room for Nebulons on the imperial sides I guess? 

Of course it was only meant as a joke to insult the ugly bomber (I meant the K-Wing btw, not the Scimitar).

[Corey]

The reasons I stated in my previous post are the reasons they are not in the mod.

How popular a craft is does not factor into game mechanics.

There are plenty of cases where a ship being common or lore-heavy is counted as a reason for inclusion- that's one of the bigger differences between ICW and Ascendancy.

The TIE Droid, A-9 Vigilance, the Preybird and the I-7 Howlrunner are all fine and nice, but they are all not as iconic and wide loved as the Xg1 and most not even more fitting to the time frame than the Gunboat.

I think in this case the idea of it being iconic or wide-loved is more your personal opinion. As far as their fitting the timeframe, the mod is entirely post-Endor. Like I said, the XG-1 had already been supplanted by the Missile Boat before Endor, and even the Missile Boat had been halted by the Emperor before Endor. So not only was it already not relevant by Endor, its followup was not relevant. There's no Post-Endor source material that mentions it even once, so I'm not sure why you're saying it's more important to the timeframe than those fighters. Most were even developed or only mentioned in the mod's timeframe, which is the exact opposite of the XG-1:

TIE Droid - Was very prominent within Shadow Hand, which is well-within the mod's timeframe.
A-9 - Designed as an answer to A-Wings 6 years ABY. Very much in the mod's timeframe.
Preybirds - The Imperial use of Preybirds in the later pre-peace Remnant was a pretty major plot point for one of the mod's primary sources (Hand of Thrawn Duology)
Howlrunners - As the Empire lost a lot of its TIEs, Howlrunners became a lot more prominent.

[Jorritkarwehr]

It's actually established as being the hands of criminals twice: Booster mentions having a pair in Isard's Revenge and if Wookiepedia is to be believed, the Lumini Pirates had them in 10 ABY during Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith. Which just reinforces the idea that it's not something the Empire is using at this point.

[kucsidave]

There are plenty of cases where a ship being common or lore-heavy is counted as a reason for inclusion- that's one of the bigger differences between ICW and Ascendancy.

I meant that part as the fan-popularity, not how lore heavy it is or how popular it was within imperials.
I thought that was what he was talking about.

The Xg1 gets Y-Wing stats but Missles and is a bit faster/better dogfighter. It should be more expensive than X-Wings and Y-Wings. Only buildable, not included on I cant find the stats right now, but would be pleased to suggest something once I see them.

Though I think Corey was pretty clear, I will give you the data in case you want to make something with it. Submods are always welcomed.

	Assault Gunboat:	Y-wing:
Shield Strength:	100SBD:	75SBD
Shield Recharge:	20%/min	10%/min
Hull Rate:	28RU	40RU
Speed:	90MGLT	90MGLT
Acceleration:	20MGLT/sec	11MGLT/sec
Maneuverability:	76DPF	60DPF