Empire vs Yuuzhan Vong

[Meyer]

Empire I speak of is the Empire that never faced rebel alliance. so without civil war, what would have happened in Yuuzhan Vong War?

[Slornie]

Aside the fact that if the Empire couldnt hold down an "insignificant rebellion", they have zero chance against a major opponent

The amount of destruction and loss would be about the same i think.

The Empire would have been just as surprised by the invasion as the NR was (only the Emperor and a select few knew of the impending invasion), and would have been thrown into equal disarray.

The available technology would have been about the same, wholly unsuited against the Vong - In fact their starfighters would be even worse off since they wouldnt have the slight protection of shields.

While the Imperial force would have been much stronger than the NR one, the absence of the Jedi to distract the Vong would make the invasion campaign considerably more concentrated and powerful.

The Imperial's love of superweapons would lead them to design and build a vongkiller of some description, which would presumably have some sort of major flaw for the Vong to exploit (maybe forgetting that Vong ships have Dovin Basals that create those micro black-holes)..

The only possible redeeming factor would be Thrawn, but only being one commander, and the well known anti-alien bias of the Empire, i feel his ability to influence the situation would be severely restricted.

This leaves with me a difficulty for voting in the poll. If by defeat the Vong you mean more successfully than the NR did (removing them as a threat counts as defeating) then i choose no, but if you just mean defeat them, id say yes.

[Meyer]

but empire would have had death star to use against YV. and no dovin basal can take that much energy. and more than 25 000 ISDs to use. and you must also remember that rebellion won through guergilla tactics. YV used same sort of tactics as empire: superior numbers and firepower. And Empire wouldn't have had any chaos and delays to act. there would be nobody to argue about that if they are a threat or not as in NR. Emperor would have been able to send his fleets to meet YV as soon as he got the info. so I have to say that Empire would have most likely done much better than NR and that they would have been able to defeat YV.

[Slornie]

The Death Star that could only hit things the size of a planet and could only fire once every 24hrs, yes - such a useful tool..

I dispute the 25000 ISD figure.

The Vong were far more ruthless than the Empire, and their superior numbers and firepower were far in excess of what the Empire could field.

There would have been plenty of chaos and disruption, the first sightings would get fed back through intelligence channels, and slowly filter up the command chains, everyone would start panicking.  Sure, there would be no senate to debate the issue, but there was still plenty of bureaucracy to complicate and delay matters.

You have to remember that the vast majority of Imperial forces were deployed to keep the peace (even without the Rebel Alliance stirring things up), if they were withdrawn to confront the Vong, internal security would collapse, especially if information about this threat leaked out.  Therefore only a fraction of Palpatine's forces could safely be mobilised against the Vong.

[Meyer]

I think people would be more happy under emperors rule than YV enslavement. And Yuuzhan Vong had many large ships, including worldships. and emperor might have built more and improved death stars, like the mkII. And why do you dispute the 25000 ISD figure? It's mentioned in many book.

[Slornie]

Maybe the citizens would be happier under the Empire than the Vong, but in times of galactic unrest (and a panicky, confused society is such) there are many people who attempt to profit from it, from the small fringe groups like pirates, up to planets or systems wanting to use the unrest to mask actions they take against their "enemies" (such as happened during the Caamas Crisis).

Yes, the Vong did have large ships, but only the Worldships would be large enough to be target able by the first Death Star.  And the Empire only designed/built the second Death Star because the first one was spectacularly obliterated, so it is unlikely that they would have created more in this theoretical timeline (where there was no Rebel Alliance).  And once the conflict started, there would not be enough resources or time to build another DS.

Yes, the 25000 figure is mentioned in many books, but i think it is misrepresented.  Personally i think it is meant to be 25000 ships of all classes (not just ISDs).  Especially when you consider that each ImpI took ~46000 crewers, and a ImpII took ~37000 (lets say 40500 for an average) - that would be ~1012500000 humans, not including any of the other ship classes (of which there would presumably more ships), supporting services, supply ships, etc.  And in EpVI, Palpatine says X [proportion] (half?) of his starfleet is behind Endor waiting for the Rebel fleet - and there was nowhere near 12500 ISDs there.

[Meyer]

didn't both ISD classes have a crew of 37000?

And the Galaxy is large and there is cloning technology. And you think emperor would only build one succesful DS?

But also that number could mean eventually built, including those destroyed in war.

But what about if rebellion was destroyed in Endor. how about then?

[vadereclipse]

other than crew and armament, what was the difference between mk1 and 2?

[Slornie]

didn't both ISD classes have a crew of 37000?

Not according to Wookieepedia, the ISDII had a smaller crew complement (presumably due to system improvements).

And the Galaxy is large and there is cloning technology. And you think emperor would only build one succesful DS?

I think in another thread we discussed whether cloning was continued post clone war, and largely decided that only half of Imperial personnel were clones by the time of Yavin.  The Death Stars were enormously expensive in time, resources and personnel, and were designed primarily as a deterrent.  I think that if the first DS hadnt been destroyed at Yavin, the Emperor would not have ordered the design/construction of the second DS.

But also that number could mean eventually built, including those destroyed in war.

Ahh, but if it does mean that, then there wouldnt be 25000 available to combat the Vong..

But what about if rebellion was destroyed in Endor. how about then?

You said in the first post assuming no Rebel Alliance or civil war.

other than crew and armament, what was the difference between mk1 and 2?

I dont know, look it up on Wookieepedia maybe?

[Daft_Vader]

Right,

The Imperial Star Destroyer MK2 had significant differences to the MK1 and these Differences allowed for Less crew, Some had multiple jobs however, so if you got rid of these multi jobs then the numbers would be very similar.

No, the Emporor would not have designed a second Death Star if the first had not been destroyed, But, knowing the Empire, there is a high chance that he would have still designed the Eclipse, or some other powerful Superweapon.

The Empire constructed many Star Destroyers, and i am sure there would have been a Huge amound. Even if they were not at war then they would still have built large quantites just to instil fear, quite possibly the number would exceed 25000.


My personal opinion to the main topic question would be that the Empire would be able to sucseffuly repel the Vong. My reasons are;

The Empire was well organised, the New republic was not. The new republic was destroying itself with political problems and there was a sort of war going on within the NR itself. The imperials would 'not descend to this level' as they would say. They would not have succumbed to this and would be Much more organised, anyone going against the reigem would have been excecuted.

They would have immence firepower, and even though their fighters would be at a disadvantage against Coralskippers, they would have used Imperial knoledge to construct New fighters to combat this new threat. In fact, they would probably have used X-Wings as they were the origional people who the fighters were designed for. There were also some Imperial fighters that were equipped with shields.

I will save my other opinions for later 

DV

[Slornie]

No, the Emporor would not have designed a second Death Star if the first had not been destroyed, But, knowing the Empire, there is a high chance that he would have still designed the Eclipse, or some other powerful Superweapon.

Quite possibly, but they would have been designed to counter "conventional" enemy forces, whereas the Vong ships were completely different.  This would limit the effectiveness of any such superweapon (although i admit that a superlaser is going to do pretty much the same thing no matter what it goes through).

The Empire was well organised, the New republic was not. The new republic was destroying itself with political problems and there was a sort of war going on within the NR itself. The imperials would 'not descend to this level' as they would say. They would not have succumbed to this and would be Much more organised, anyone going against the reigem would have been excecuted.

Sure, the Empire wouldnt have all the major political problems (all political opponents having been eliminated), but on the other hand there were considerable minor issues, between different factions in Palpatine's court, over ambitious/corrupt senior officers in the forces, and the lack of unity between species (the anti-alien bias causing internal unrest).

They would have immence firepower, and even though their fighters would be at a disadvantage against Coralskippers, they would have used Imperial knoledge to construct New fighters to combat this new threat. In fact, they would probably have used X-Wings as they were the origional people who the fighters were designed for. There were also some Imperial fighters that were equipped with shields.

Yes, they would have immense firepower, but the Vong had unconventional weapons that were clearly superior to anything the Empire or NR had.  I doubt that Imperial knowledge was any better than NR knowledge (since they would have been the same scientists and designers), so new tech to fight the Vong wouldnt have been developed any quicker.  The X-Wing fighter design was against Imperial design philosophy (and was cast out prior to the Alliance getting it), so the chances of the Empire having them available for use is very small, and to redesign them up to current spec and tool up factories to produce them would be time consuming.  The Imperial fighters equipped with shields were uncommon, and usually produced in limited numbers, thus would also not be available in sufficient numbers to equip the fleet.

[Corey]

Just a comment on the 25,000 ISD figure here:

Also, the 25,000 ISDs seems like it may be too small, Slornie, you say it would take 1,012,500,000 people to crew all of the Imperial ISDs? Well, concidering the Earth has a population of 6 billion, I don't see that as a very large number, especially since the Empire spanned several thousand star systems, was pro-conscription and Coruscant alone has a population of just under 1 trillion....

[Slornie]

Just a comment on the 25,000 ISD figure here:
Also, the 25,000 ISDs seems like it may be too small, Slornie, you say it would take 1,012,500,000 people to crew all of the Imperial ISDs? Well, concidering the Earth has a population of 6 billion, I don't see that as a very large number, especially since the Empire spanned several thousand star systems, was pro-conscription and Coruscant alone has a population of just under 1 trillion....

Earth has 6bn people of both genders, the majority of Imperial forces were male.

Several thousand star systems with several thousand species, the Imperial forces were almost exclusively human (due to the Emperor's anti-alien bias).

Coruscant had such a large population, yes, but that population is made up of a diverse number of species (and like i said, the Imperial forces were predominately human), and the fact that those people are there means that they cant be in the Imperial forces

And if that is just ISDs, that means that means there have to be billions more people crewing all the smaller military ships, crewing civilian ships, working in shipyards building ships.. And every other job, military and civilian.

[Daft_Vader]

Earth has 6bn people of both genders, the majority of Imperial forces were male.

Several thousand star systems with several thousand species, the Imperial forces were almost exclusively human (due to the Emperor's anti-alien bias).

Coruscant had such a large population, yes, but that population is made up of a diverse number of species (and like i said, the Imperial forces were predominately human), and the fact that those people are there means that they cant be in the Imperial forces

And if that is just ISDs, that means that means there have to be billions more people crewing all the smaller military ships, crewing civilian ships, working in shipyards building ships.. And every other job, military and civilian.

Now, that is not entirely true.

There were Lots of Non-humans that served in the empire, but they had the background jobs. Such as, many worked in the shipyards, and as minor jobs on the large ships.

Prodominantly male yes, BUT there were lots of females involved in the empire. They may not have gone off to war and killed enemies(No evidence to say they didn't At all) But they did have those background jobs too.

And, A majority of the planetary populations were actually Human and there were Billions of planets under Imperial control. They would have had No problem with lack of workers and they would probably have had many slaves working un shipyards and building superweapons.

[Slornie]

Okay, point conceded, maybe there were 25000 ISDs.. But they still wouldnt have all been available to combat the Vong - The majority would be involved with peace keeping and routine operations across the galaxy, if they left their patrols to fight the vong civil order would break down (pirates, smugglers, slavers, inter-planetary wars, malcontents, etc).

[vadereclipse]

byw, a third death star under construction was destroyed after battle of endoe
was unoperartional though

[Slornie]

You mean the prototype from the Maw Installation? That doesnt count.. It was only built to prove the concept.

[vadereclipse]

no
i read something on wookiepedia
its not there or i cant find it

[Daft_Vader]

The one at the maw installation was actually the First Death star, Built before the others, to prove that it worked, and then it means the one at endor was actually the Third.

I think you mean that they were trying to complete this one and make it a proper DS, which they were Not

[vadereclipse]

no
maaybe it was noncanon or bullcrap
would of used a stronger word but dont know how swearing is thought of in this forum