Warlord Faction Development

[Slornie]

it also had massively upgraded hangar capacity, cited in Darksaber as carrying 1,000 TIEs.

Thousands of TIES is standard for an Executor. It just so happens that normally they carry only a fraction of that number.

It was designed to be superior to anything any other warlord possessed so I would imagine that would also logically follow weapon improvements over standard SSDs as well due to Delvardus eventual plan to attack the NR after besting his rivals.  He'd be up against Lusankya so it stands to reason he'd buff the Night Hammer as much as possible. 

By the time Delvardus actually got around to building the thing did any of the other Warlords have anything comparable to an Executor for him to bother trying to one-up them?  Night Hammer was first seen in 12 ABY (and you'd have thought Delvardus would have made use of it if it had been ready much before that); four years after Zsinj was been killed on Iron Fist (8 ABY) and five years after Isard lost Lusankya (7 ABY) - I seem to recall the NR kept the capture secret while they refurbished the ship and it only entered active service in 11 ABY.

The vessel was constructed and modified to need for over seven years and was Delvardus sole ace in the hole.

I thought it took seven years because Delvardus had to siphon millions of credits from the Empire and put all of his resources into it, rather than being to do with pimping his ride?  I'm not saying it shouldn't have something extra to differentiate it from a non-hero SSD (beside the paint job), but I juat don't think it was as special as you're making it out to be.

[tlmiller]

Yeah, I kinda thought the Night Hammer just actually tried to fill it's hangers, not that it actually had larger hangers.

Thousands of TIES is standard for an Executor. It just so happens that normally they carry only a fraction of that number.
By the time Delvardus actually got around to building the thing did any of the other Warlords have anything comparable to an Executor for him to bother trying to one-up them?  Night Hammer was first seen in 12 ABY (and you'd have thought Delvardus would have made use of it if it had been ready much before that); four years after Zsinj was been killed on Iron Fist (8 ABY) and five years after Isard lost Lusankya (7 ABY) - I seem to recall the NR kept the capture secret while they refurbished the ship and it only entered active service in 11 ABY.
I thought it took seven years because Delvardus had to siphon millions of credits from the Empire and put all of his resources into it, rather than being to do with pimping his ride?  I'm not saying it shouldn't have something extra to differentiate it from a non-hero SSD (beside the paint job), but I juat don't think it was as special as you're making it out to be.

Agreed.  All Executors COULD carry thousands of fighters, most simply didn't.  While it might have had slightly superior hull strength due to the stealth armor, I realliy don't see much of a reason to have the Night Hammer be much different than the "generic" Executor, as Corey said, the major differences don't affect the game itself.

[Jorritkarwehr]

It's not like a minor buff would be particularly noticeable anyway: it would still destroy anything that isn't another SSD or gigantic fleet without trouble. Against another SSD, whichever has worse pathfinding is going to have more impact than a bit more armor or shields.

One thing that you could do to differentiate it could be alter the requirements to build it. For instance, make it considerably cheaper than stock executors, but make it take much longer to build. That way, you could start construction fairly early, but it would have the indirect cost of tying up a shipyard for a very long time.


Kind of an off topic thought, but what new models would you need for a Galactic Civil War era? I feel like era one, minus a few Rebel capitals, plus a few heroes recycled from the base game would be pretty close. I'm not trying to push for its inclusion, just curious about the logic.

[kucsidave]

Kind of an off topic thought, but what new models would you need for a Galactic Civil War era? I feel like era one, minus a few Rebel capitals, plus a few heroes recycled from the base game would be pretty close. I'm not trying to push for its inclusion, just curious about the logic.

They are not going to make the Galactic Civil War.
Corey stated it here:
http://thrawnsrevenge.com/forums/index.php?topic=5441.0

[Jorritkarwehr]

I realize that. I was just wondering if they would share more specifically what changed their minds.

[Grimnak]

Death Star II would likely have to get some code tweaking, and it would require a lot of time for one GC not part of the mod's timeframe.

[Lord Xizer]

Lusankya saw limited use during Shadow Hand and was known by this time to be in the NR fleet. Harrsk alsi had commandeered Megador and Dominion at his deep space docks but lacked the crews for them. Reaper was still in the PA, so yes there would have been a demand for Delvardus to One Up other SSDs with Night Hammer. The ship's long construction was only ppartially due to funding. Delvardus constantly would have updated it along the way.

As to SSDs having standard complements of thousands if TIEs that is only if they don't carry all the landing ships and garrison vessels too. Night Hammer apparently did have upgraded hangars over other ssds.

This could be affected in game by being able to launch multiple squadrons at a time rather than singularly like other vessels. Maybe a point defense and upgraded health for hard points. If not then why not a timed ability like the Interdictor to mess up missile guidance as the stealth armor might interfere with sensor lock on.

[Grimnak]

When is an expected release time frame?  Will it be in Auugust or much later?

[kucsidave]

When is an expected release time frame?  Will it be in Auugust or much later?

Corey stated it on moddb that it is still too early to tell.

[Grimnak]

That's not a good sign.  I was hoping for a late summer release so I still had some time to enjoy it before school prevents me from ICW'ing for a long, long time.

[Corey]

We have a policy of not announcing release dates, even giving rough estimates, until whatever it is is already done. Every time I've loosened that policy I've regretted it, so never happening again.

[Lord Xizer]

We have a policy of not announcing release dates, even giving rough estimates, until whatever it is is already done. Every time I've loosened that policy I've regretted it, so never happening again.

Besides it's better to take a long time and do it right than to rush something and have problems in it. The longer the wait, the more refined and satisfying the release.

[kucsidave]

Let me ask quick question what just popped into my mind.
Will this mean that the Hunt for Zsinj will be playable from 3 sides from now on?

[Lord Xizer]

Let me ask quick question what just popped into my mind.
Will this mean that the Hunt for Zsinj will be playable from 3 sides from now on?

You are correct sir!

[KommissarReb]

Not certain if anyone already said this, I just don't want to have to sift through 6 pages of comments, so I'll add my 2 cents.

If a (playable) Warlord faction begins the game at a disadvantage, you could do a number of things to make it more fair for them. Here are my ideas:

1 or few planets: Make it so that they start out with a Star Dreadnought they can defend their planet(s) in case they get overwhelmed by enemy forces containing SSD's

Weak Ground forces: Make their planet or planets so they have the terrain at their advantage, or a lot of civilians that take their side

To differentiate Imperial Splinter factions that all use the Galactic Empire symbol, recolor or stylize the vanilla Imperial symbol by recoloring the blue background to red/brown/pink/green/orange, and maybe if you add the Restored Empire you can use the logo that has a crimson Imperial symbol with the inner dot in the center like here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Restored_Empire

If you add the Restored Empire, you could give them Clone Wars-era Republic ships and make their stormtroopers have red symbols/lines to show the difference and such.

[kucsidave]

Not certain if anyone already said this, I just don't want to have to sift through 6 pages of comments, so I'll add my 2 cents.

If a (playable) Warlord faction begins the game at a disadvantage, you could do a number of things to make it more fair for them. Here are my ideas:

Yes, there will be 3 playable warlord factions. By name Zsinj's empire, the Greater Maldrood and last but not least the Eriadu Authority.

1 or few planets: Make it so that they start out with a Star Dreadnought they can defend their planet(s) in case they get overwhelmed by enemy forces containing SSD's

Weak Ground forces: Make their planet or planets so they have the terrain at their advantage, or a lot of civilians that take their side

1: That wouldn't be good to add star dreadnoughts for them. Teradoc(greater maldrood) for example never associated with them. He didn't really used regular star destroyers too, because he was a frigate man.
2: Possibly a better idea...

To differentiate Imperial Splinter factions that all use the Galactic Empire symbol, recolor or stylize the vanilla Imperial symbol by recoloring the blue background to red/brown/pink/green/orange, and maybe if you add the Restored Empire you can use the logo that has a crimson Imperial symbol with the inner dot in the center like here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Restored_Empire

If you add the Restored Empire, you could give them Clone Wars-era Republic ships and make their stormtroopers have red symbols/lines to show the difference and such.

As I told, there will be only three warlords, and the restored Empire shal not be one of them.
For Zsinj, I am upgrading one of my previous icons, and planning to donate it for the team for logo to Zsinj's empire.

[KommissarReb]

1: That wouldn't be good to add star dreadnoughts for them. Teradoc(greater maldrood) for example never associated with them. He didn't really used regular star destroyers too, because he was a frigate man.

Then give the Greater Maldrood a lot of frigates. You don't want them getting immediately swamped by the IR or NR.

As I told, there will be only three warlords, and the restored Empire shal not be one of them.

Despite how they act similarly to a warlord faction, the Restored Empire isn't one. They were hardliners who wanted to disrupt a peace treaty ending the GCW between the IR and NR. if you are saying they wont be added because it isn't planned yet, fine. However I don't understand why you wouldn't want them to be added if that's what you're saying. They have a great story surrounding them, and it would be interested if there was a mod that manipulated game mechanics so the IR and NR can't attack each other, but they can only fight the RE. Either that or put the RE between the NR and IR and make them fight the RE to get to each other.

[tlmiller]

Because they were a tiny faction that essentially had no real area they controlled as themselves (1 planet), and they were eliminated shortly after they showed themselves.  In addition, they used ancient equipment (already covered between the PA & late-era IR), and bring nothing of interest to the table to make them.  Eriadu Authority has the Night Hammer.  Greater Maldrood has the Crimson Command.  Zsinj has raptor troopers and Tie Raptors.  Restored empire has the same clone wars era ships as the PA, without the heavier ships of the PA.  Given that they were only known of on the Galactic stage for like a week before they were crushed (ok, minor exaggeration), the time it would take the team to code them in simply isn't worth the trouble.  Plus they're up against a wall in terms of how many factions are capable of being playable in the game, and so if the restored empire were to be included, someone else (who does have something interesing to make them worth inclusion and survived longer than a week) would need to be cut.

[KommissarReb]

Because they were a tiny faction that essentially had no real area they controlled as themselves (1 planet), and they were eliminated shortly after they showed themselves.  In addition, they used ancient equipment (already covered between the PA & late-era IR), and bring nothing of interest to the table to make them.  Eriadu Authority has the Night Hammer.  Greater Maldrood has the Crimson Command.  Zsinj has raptor troopers and Tie Raptors.  Restored empire has the same clone wars era ships as the PA, without the heavier ships of the PA.  Given that they were only known of on the Galactic stage for like a week before they were crushed (ok, minor exaggeration), the time it would take the team to code them in simply isn't worth the trouble.  Plus they're up against a wall in terms of how many factions are capable of being playable in the game, and so if the restored empire were to be included, someone else (who does have something interesing to make them worth inclusion and survived longer than a week) would need to be cut.

Maybe. I wasn't aware that there was a limit on how many factions could be playable. In my opinion they would make for an interesting minor power owning Orinda IV or something, with hero units like Ennix Devian and Bernard Vota.

[Corey]

Let me ask quick question what just popped into my mind.
Will this mean that the Hunt for Zsinj will be playable from 3 sides from now on?

No, Hunt for Zsinj is still Zsinj and the "alliance" situation with the NR of Rogriss and Solo.

To differentiate Imperial Splinter factions that all use the Galactic Empire symbol, recolor or stylize the vanilla Imperial symbol by recoloring the blue background to red/brown/pink/green/orange

I'd like to be able to give them their own unique identifiers, but unfortunately the game doesn't care if you do that, the only places that really use it are the pips on the skirmish menu (which they won't be available in) and the pips on the HUD in GC mode, which the game doesn't load beyond the fourth one. They default to the Hutt one (which is, in the mod, now the icon slot taken up by the PA). They also use the hyperlane colours of previous factions regardless of their own colour which is slightly more annoying. Also as a side note, factions that aren't the original three can't use any story scripting which is what makes most new game mechanics work (as was mentioned previously, which is why I suggest reading past posts; saves me time explaining things).

Despite how they act similarly to a warlord faction, the Restored Empire isn't one. They were hardliners who wanted to disrupt a peace treaty ending the GCW between the IR and NR. if you are saying they wont be added because it isn't planned yet, fine. However I don't understand why you wouldn't want them to be added if that's what you're saying. They have a great story surrounding them, and it would be interested if there was a mod that manipulated game mechanics so the IR and NR can't attack each other, but they can only fight the RE. Either that or put the RE between the NR and IR and make them fight the RE to get to each other.

I don't want to add them because gameplay wise and in the broader narrative of the era, they're irrelevant. Hardcoded limits aside, they would never be under any serious consideration. They controlled basically one planet (and not even an important planet). If you compare that to even the weakest of the factions in the game as it is, the Hapans controlled 63 and the Duskhan League at least 13. In any GC not specifically focused on them (where we artifically zoom in and expand their territory) this tends to translate to three planets for the Hapans and one for the Duskhan League. And that's still probably proportionally too high. I'm perfectly fine with factions having a starting point imbalance between factions since this is a narrative sandbox game as opposed to a competitive multiplayer game, but (to give it a Total War-eque, or since you mentioned it in your other thread, Supremacy 1914 frame of reference) if the Hapans or Maldrood are like making Belgium (Luxembourg for the Yevetha) present or playable in a game about World War I/II, the Restored Empire (or Reborn Empire) are like putting Andorra there. Only, proportionally even smaller.

If we were to make a list of all the factions and groups in the galaxy during this period by size, relevance to the galactic political landscape and capability to expand, it's something like this:
1. New Republic (ca. 19 ABY)
2. Imperial Remnant (Moff Council/Palpatine/Isard version)
3. Empire of the Hand (ca. 19 ABY)
4. Pentastar Alignment
5. Warlord Zsinj
6. Greater Maldrood (Federated Teradoc Union)
7. Eriadu Authority
8. Zero Command
9. Hapes Consortium
10. Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium / Duskhan League
12. Hutt Cartels
13. Corporate Sector Authority
14. Prentioch's Dominion /Sarne / Oplovis / Antemeridian / Ciutric / Grunger
20. Bakuran Defense Fleet / Empire Reborn / Restored Empire
23. Second Imperium

If they cared at all to be involved in this period, the Vong Empire probably jumps to first place militarily considering the GFFA had to form to beat them, and the Chiss Ascendancy would be somewhere around Eriaud Authority (the 14-19 range should probably include more random Warlords-of-the-week as well, but meh).

IF you want to take it from the perspective of what a group provides as far as unique playstyles, rosters or game mechanics (leaving aside what's actually possible in EaW):
1. Vong Empire
2. Ssi-Ruuvi
3. New Republic
4. Empire of the Hand
5. Imperial Remnant
6. Hapans
7. Hutts
8. Pentastar Alignment

Literally everyone else is to some extent a clone/mix of the Remnant and PA with perhaps one or two unique units.



So, if we're going to include a group, they have to either represent a significant chunk of the galaxy or have something really unique about them. Their story is pretty irrelevant considering that doesn't come into play . So, having a group that controls only one planet canonically, forget what they'd have when reduced to the planet resolution (for lack of a better term) the game is able to represent is pretty pointless unless they have something else significant to offer. Their backstory isn't terribly relevant since none of it is something that can be represented in an RTS like EaW, and the one thing they did do (the attack on Orinda) failed. As for your idea that you put the RE between the NR and IR and they can't fight each other, that's again just one planet they have to get through (so it's a GC with one chokepoint, through a faction with outdated technology) and again is kind of like having a scenario in a real-world game where Spain and France are at war but can only get to each other through Andorra.