Balance & Flavor submod for Imperial Civil War 2.1

[Lord Xizer]

Oh, I definitely consider Zsinj a villain, not an antihero.  He forcibly brainwashed people into committing acts of murder and terrorism, was willing to kill his people over breaches of discipline (such as playing a game while on duty), was happy to destroy non-military targets like bacta convoys... he's solidly in villain camp as far as I'm concerned.  But he's the best kind of villain, one that still has a code of sorts, one whose great successes came from brilliance rather than raw strength, one who is ruthless rather than sadistic, one who makes you wonder "in his shoes, would I truly do all that differently?"

As much as I enjoy the Marvel series of movies, they tend to present pretty crappy cardboard cut-out villains, with the exceptions of Loki and Magneto (Magneto especially).  They could learn a lot from a character like Zsinj.

Couldn't agree more in this respect. As mentioned, he felt his ends justify his means so as long as it was for hie 'greater good' any action was justified. As to executing personel for derilection of duty, well considering the things Vader and other Warlords executed their men for Zsinj seems rather urbane by comparison and he did balance this with greatly rewarding soldiers who did excel in their work.

As it goes if I were an Imperial in post Endor main Galaxy, I'd have placed my flag in the camp of Zsinj due to his aggression against the NR, then Kaine due to his Imperial Ideals and stability, Thrawn for taking the fight to the NR again and Pellaeon for the same reasons respectively in that order.

[kucsidave]

As it goes if I were an Imperial in post Endor main Galaxy, I'd have placed my flag in the camp of Zsinj due to his aggression against the NR, then Kaine due to his Imperial Ideals and stability, Thrawn for taking the fight to the NR again and Pellaeon for the same reasons respectively in that order.

Almost exactly the same. I can only wonder what would have happened if Kaine and Zsinj would make an alliance, and cooperate. I think the whole galaxy would have lied at their feet.

[Lord Xizer]

Almost exactly the same. I can only wonder what would have happened if Kaine and Zsinj would make an alliance, and cooperate. I think the whole galaxy would have lied at their feet.

Well they did somewhat cooperate in that there were only small skirmishes along their border and Kaine did trade with Zsinj as well as the D'Asta Clan(Which were inside the PA's borders loaned vessels to one of Zsinj's Admirals(Banjeer I think it was) so to an extent they cooexisted in relative cooperation, but they could never have been allies, they both wanted different things.Zsinj wanted Galactic domination with himself at the top, Kaine wanted to be create a new future for the New Order in the New Territories and though he was not Emperor of this in name, he was in fact. Any coalition with these two dominant personalities would have eventually come to a head.(Much as Shu Han and Wu did during the Three Kingdoms era of China) They were both former servants of an Emperor and suddenly after Endor they WERE Emperors in fact if not name. They never would have surrendered that authority again.

[Pali]

Couldn't agree more in this respect. As mentioned, he felt his ends justify his means so as long as it was for hie 'greater good' any action was justified. As to executing personel for derilection of duty, well considering the things Vader and other Warlords executed their men for Zsinj seems rather urbane by comparison and he did balance this with greatly rewarding soldiers who did excel in their work.

Oh, very true.  Even Thrawn, arguably the moral high ground of Imperial warlords, executed a man for incompetence.

[Lord Xizer]

Oh, very true.  Even Thrawn, arguably the moral high ground of Imperial warlords, executed a man for incompetence.

And both knowingly and willingly kept the Noghri in permanent indentured servitude.

[Pali]

And both knowingly and willingly kept the Noghri in permanent indentured servitude.

Yeah, but that was so artistically done...

[Lord Xizer]

Yeah, but that was so artistically done...

Ah! I see what you did there...

[kucsidave]

I don't want to be impatient, but... WHEN WILL THAT RELEASE COME?
I can't wait...

[Vulcanus]

I don't want to be impatient, but... WHEN WILL THAT RELEASE COME?
I can't wait...

Sorry to say, but real life has taken over 100%, so I have no time to work on the submod here, for now.

[Pali]

We forgive you.  The current iteration is plenty of work that I wouldn't have done myself, so I thank you for it.

[kucsidave]

i found something really interesting.
If you play the Post-Zsinj campaign with Greater Maldrood, there are Hutts with two planets, Ylesia and Nal Hutta.The interesting part is that, if it is played with IR, PA or NR those planets nowhere to be found...

[Lord Xizer]

Oh, I definitely consider Zsinj a villain, not an antihero.  He forcibly brainwashed people into committing acts of murder and terrorism, was willing to kill his people over breaches of discipline (such as playing a game while on duty), was happy to destroy non-military targets like bacta convoys... he's solidly in villain camp as far as I'm concerned.  But he's the best kind of villain, one that still has a code of sorts, one whose great successes came from brilliance rather than raw strength, one who is ruthless rather than sadistic, one who makes you wonder "in his shoes, would I truly do all that differently?"

As much as I enjoy the Marvel series of movies, they tend to present pretty crappy cardboard cut-out villains, with the exceptions of Loki and Magneto (Magneto especially).  They could learn a lot from a character like Zsinj.

Oh I completely agree. I love how while some of the Imperial's are sadistic tyrants worthy of the SS or Gestapo in ruthlessness and cruelty, there are others who are mediums, some who are genuinely good and other that are in a grey area. It gives you a feeling that these are indeed people and believable.Thrawn, Rogriss, Pellaeon were devoted to Order and lasting Peace, Zsinj and Kaine to their own vision of that Order and stability, Isard and Daala for all their wanton destruction truly loved the Empire that died at Endor and sought to recreate it, Krennal sought only to rule his own little Empire with an Iron fist, while Delvardus, Teradoc Harrsk wanted Galactic Domination to feed their egos. Each had their own motives and reasons but they were each believable. Marvel does a poor job with a lot of it's villains in that they are, Mwahahaha I'm evil and for some poorly defined(If at all defined) reason that makes no sense. Some of these Imps and Warlords pursued what they genuinely thought was the best course of action for not only themselves but for the Galaxy as a whole.
Zsinj had moments where as a character he was genuinely likeable, the Dinner scene, those little parts where he offers passes, promotions and pay raises for those who are loyal and do well. Even when he is being evil you get a sense of the man as not doing these things because he's a psycho like Sidious but that to him the end justifies these extreme actions. Think about it from his view, the central government has collapsed, as a human male in the military you would have been taught humans were the true acme of greatness and that other species were like animals(Lara Notsil even thought this way before she turned to the Wraiths) and you use animals. You have a massive fleet under your command but now some poloticians who are incompetent are telling you to abandon your OverSector and all you've built there and run to protect them. Or you can lock down you territory, do what you've always wanted to do and rule accordingly. You KNOW you are better than most if not all of the other contenders and ONLY you can bring back order to this chaos. All that stands before you is a fragmented and poorly led Empire, an obese egocentric Warlord who can't even pacify the Hutts and the hodgepodge of Rebels. What would YOU do in his boots?

[Pali]

I'd say that Zsinj's greatest mistake was not using diplomacy enough with the major govts that were left.  He had a great carrot+stick approach with individual planets, but I don't know that he tried at all to seek even temporary peace with the IR or the NR, and what undid him was those two govts working together to defeat him.  Had he held back from attacking the NR, tossed the Provisional Council an offer of peace (or even alliance against the IR), he would have had more time to expand and secure his borders while focusing his military might against one enemy at a time.  Instead he got stuck in a two-front war.

[Lord Xizer]

I'd say that Zsinj's greatest mistake was not using diplomacy enough with the major govts that were left.  He had a great carrot+stick approach with individual planets, but I don't know that he tried at all to seek even temporary peace with the IR or the NR, and what undid him was those two govts working together to defeat him.  Had he held back from attacking the NR, tossed the Provisional Council an offer of peace (or even alliance against the IR), he would have had more time to expand and secure his borders while focusing his military might against one enemy at a time.  Instead he got stuck in a two-front war.

Well he did use diplomacy right after Endor. He feigned nominal allegiance to the IR, coexisted at least largely peacefully with the PA and he did not attack the NR so in turn other than two battles they left Zsinj alone. This allowed him to solidify his power base unlike some of the other Warlords who blitzed right away and imploded(Delvardus, Grunger, Drommel and Pitta come to mind) Once that was set and Isard with her SSD were killed(Or at least believed to be) and Kaine being completely Isolationist Zsinj had to act. The legitamate government was destroyed and the IR was governed by squabbling Moffs, it's capital had fallen so he saw it as no threat, even better by striking at the NR he could show himself as the Empire's savior and successor(Which attracted large amounts of disgruntled and disillusioned former Imperial Forces to his banner. If he had made peace of alliance with the NR that would have sent a lot of his supporters and governors scurrying AWAY from him as many of them WERE Imperials. Don't forget Teradoc and Kaine were both right next door and Zsinj couldn't afford to have them both absorb new forces and become stronger.
His tactical reasoning and strategic goals were sound-until he attacked the IR at Kuat. I know WHY he did this, the IR didn't recognize him as a legal government, for all intents and purposes to the Moffs he was the same as the rebels. He needed to deprive a potential enemy of a flagship that could challenge Iron Fist, and if he could GAIN said vessel too that would drastically increase his power, prestige and even sway more systems that he was the new power and would be the last one standing.
Had it not been for the Wraiths sabatoge he would have gotten away with it and with his consistant growth and the fact that until he was both sabatoged and betrayed by Lara Notsil he really hadn't been dealt crippling blows and was more or less holding his own. His expansion had been stopped by Rogriss and Solo's efforts but his economy was still self sustaining, his shipyards hidden and his power base secure.
Honestly even with the two front war he was more or less holding his own-though barely. Had it not been for the incredibly unlucky sequence of events that led to his death at Dathomir he might have remained a Galactic power for another Decade.

[Pali]

Good points all there.  I retract my objection.

[Lord Xizer]

Good points all there.  I retract my objection.

Zsinj was destroyed by a combination of betrayal, bad intel fed to him by said betrayal and incredibly bad luck.

Incidentally have there been any updates for the sub mod? I've been out of things for a bit.

[Vulcanus]

Incidentally have there been any updates for the sub mod? I've been out of things for a bit.

No new updates. I've been too busy with other stuff to do anything here. I'll try to get things started for Eriadu Authority and the second Post-Endor GC once my Christmas break starts rather than releasing the Zsinj-Kaine-Teradoc GC alone (which is like 95% finished) since those two are a connected.

[NeoSigma]

No idea if this is a vanilla bug (probably) but I've been playing the Art of War GC as Empire of the Hand. At a certain point on week 101 the game hangs and freezes, forcing me to CTR+ALT+DEL to exit the game. Is there any solution or is this game lost?

[Lord Xizer]

No new updates. I've been too busy with other stuff to do anything here. I'll try to get things started for Eriadu Authority and the second Post-Endor GC once my Christmas break starts rather than releasing the Zsinj-Kaine-Teradoc GC alone (which is like 95% finished) since those two are a connected.

Much appreciation Vulcanus. I finally got a laptop and some wifi up and running for my deployment, your submob has been a great way to close out the days over here. Can't wait to get my hands on the Eriadu Authority.

[Vulcanus]

No idea if this is a vanilla bug (probably) but I've been playing the Art of War GC as Empire of the Hand. At a certain point on week 101 the game hangs and freezes, forcing me to CTR+ALT+DEL to exit the game. Is there any solution or is this game lost?

This is most likely the dreaded freeze, which is a vanilla bug. Use the Defreezer http://www.moddb.com/mods/thrawns-revenge/downloads/unit-selection-freeze-fixer-utility to fix it.

Incidentally I'm playing the very same campaign, at week 97.