Empire of the Hand improvement

[Corey]

Hey people,

We recently put a poll on our Facebook group (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Thrawns-Revenge/20781119569) asking people which faction was their favourite to play as, and the results (thus far) put it at about 50% Remnant, 30% New Republic and 20% EotH, so we wanted to ask what exactly it is people think they're lacking in comparison to the other two factions. Now that we're done redoing the EotH ships, we're able to focus on general improvement so we'd like to hear everyone's idea.

[Sith of Steel]

I think the first thing we should take into consideration is the poll itself.  Borrowing from statistical theory here, the poll on Facebook was based on voluntary response, meaning that any results we get from it are by no means statistically valid.  It's completely possible that the actual distribution of preferred factions is much more even.

Not to mention that even if most people do prefer the Remnant, which I suspect to be the case, there may not be a whole lot you can do.  I mean, they're the Empire, one of the most iconic organizations in modern science fiction.  I feel like more people might play Remnant for that reason regardless of factional unit status or other factors.

(I'll admit that I'm an EotH fan for more or less the reason that they're different; however, I've tried to approach this post from a neutral perspective)

Alright, so more of the post clicked and I realized you guys were talking more about the EotH than the EotH and NR...I'll edit my other post. (ugh, this is what I get for trying to be helpful on low amounts of sleep...)

[Popemaster]

But saying that any poll is voluntary.
And I think for immersions sake it might be worth finding audio files for the extended characters where possible or recording volunteers (or the teams) voices. Nothings worse then when Hans voice speeks when selecting Leia.

[Sith of Steel]

Popemaster, yes, any poll is voluntary and has fault to some degree.  I was merely suggesting the idea that the factions might be perfectly fine.  I play EotH and Remnant almost out of personal preference more than faction design.  I think that, above all else, the EotH would suffer most from lack of recognition (the Empire's a walking icon, and the NR's filled with walking icons like Luke Skywalker, Han, etc.)

I also support your idea, if even I don't care much for the New Republic :p

[Corey]

Sample size may be relevant in that it's hard to get a proper indication from 30 votes, however the voluntary nature of the poll is not unless there would be a statistically significant connection between people liking EotH and a tendency to avoid polls. If this were the only indication of it, I wouldn't have asked, however they have always been the focus of this kind of attention (we always get feedback about how people like them but they need to be further developed in a certain way without giving too much detail on that point) and they seem to always be in the back of people's minds as a novelty within the mod taking the backseat to the other factions. As far as iconic status goes, that can be discounted as the only major factor when there's such a huge gap between the NR and IR as well.

[Sith of Steel]

Fair enough, and a good point.

As far as iconic status goes, that can be discounted as the only major factor when there's such a huge gap between the NR and IR as well.

I feel like iconic status still plays a role though given that the Imperial status symbols seem to be much more profound then New Republic symbols.  Even then though, we could go back and forth there without making a concrete point or solving any issues.
To me, the best way to improve the Empire of the Hand would be to give them a unique strategical development of some sort.  Overall, the three factions in Thrawn's Revenge function much more similarly to each other than the three factions in Forces of Corruption which is why I was so quick to bring up aesthetics as a significant factor.
(Speaking of which, Empire was the easiest faction to play in FoC, so that may have simply transferred over in having a ton of Empire fans already primed for Imperial play in TR.  Not to mention the Empire can mass SSDs?  Your guess is as good as mine here).

(Hm, adding on to this post...the EotH doesn't have any real type of Star Dreadnought available.  I'm sure giving them one could boost their popularity)

[Corey]

(Hm, adding on to this post...the EotH doesn't have any real type of Star Dreadnought available.  I'm sure giving them one could boost their popularity)

http://www.moddb.com/mods/thrawns-revenge/images/phalanx-approaching#imagebox

[Sith of Steel]

http://www.moddb.com/mods/thrawns-revenge/images/phalanx-approaching#imagebox

How powerful is the Phalanx compared to an Executor class SSD?
Still, at the end of the day we could debate if even that matters.
I feel like, to a good degree, the EotH especially lacks a feeling of identity on land.  The New Republic has years worth of RTS tanks, the Empire has its signature walkers.  What does the EotH have?  To me, a few units with unoriginal names and relatively mundane unit functions.  I think some more...interesting, unorthodox ground units would help the EotH garner more attention.  (the Megamaser Tank, for example, I believe is a step in the right direction.  But the "Kirov" tank, which you're talking of removing anyway, and the "Rapid Fire Tank?")

[yutpaeksi]

I for one love the EtoH for its space superiority. Their ships, on a per population basis, are simply some of the best up and down, including their fighters. The reason why I imagine the EtoH not being so popular is because they and the Chiss overall play a fairly small role in the expanded universe. While the NR/Rebel Alliance/Galactic Alliance (maybe?) and the Empire/Remnant are the main factions, the secrecy of the Chiss has led to them being kept out of most novels or downplayed. I guess my point here is that its lack of popularity is not in any way the fault of the mod team. I think you've done an excellent job fleshing out their space fleets and provided very interesting land units (megamaser and flame tanks). They are simply a faction that most people probably don't identify with or like.

Now perhaps one thing that might help is to give them a GC centered around them. Unfortunately, there isn't much canonic material to work from in the eras currently present in the mod as their forces weren't brought in really until the Swarm War.

Someone mentioned that they seem to lack an identity. Now I felt that back in 1.1, when they still had cloaking abilities on a couple of their ships, that helped to distinguish them. Is that a possibility? That was one of the things that help separate the Zann Consortium in FoC.

Also, I know that with the Hand of Thrawn, the EtoH get a lot of intel across the galaxy that the IR and NR don't get. I actually find that really interesting, so how about expanding upon that? The IR has to use probe droids to see everything on a planet, the NR need cracken or some stealth units to even get an inkling of what's going on while the EtoH always get to track fleet movements and fleet pop counts, heroes, and the largest ships of a fleet. How about letting them see the full compositions of enemy fleets?

And lastly, since I don't use Facebook, I'd like to add a vote for the EtoH here. Great work guys, always love how communicative you guys are too.

[Sith of Steel]

Basically, yutpaeski, I agree with what you've said, long live EotH I'm just not that great at explaining things right now...

[Lord Xizer]

Well for myself I do favor the Imperial Remnant primarily because I'm an old Imperial fan(I also have a soft spot for the Warlords even though they are not playable) Mainly for me it's because I admire the characters of Grand Admiral Thrawn and Pellaeon as well as the Imperial fighting forces. They have far more interesting units to me than the NR. My second favorite is the Empire of the Hand(Close second by the way) because of their Imperial background as well.
I normally go IR because of the few glitches with EotH ground defenses and stations(which I hear are being fixed so as not to be invisible)
I almost never play as the NR because I always saw them as sort of the reason for most of the chaos in the SWEU and feel that the Empire would have been much more beneficial to the Galaxy than the NR. I know that sounds odd but I've always identified with the Empire(not palpatine, isard and the tyrants per se so much as the Imperial Military itself) After years of reading about characters you get kind of attached and root for them. For me that's always been the Empire. So that's my reason. You guys have done a great job of bringing the EotH to life in a wonderful way. This mod is a fantastic opportunity to explore that mysterious faction which is often only hinted at in the EU. I do confess I would like to see more of the Hand Of Thrawn itself as more major to the EotHs military might and usefulness.   

[Corey]

How powerful is the Phalanx compared to an Executor class SSD?
Still, at the end of the day we could debate if even that matters.

Probaby 5 to one Executor, though I've never liked Superships like that myself.

I feel like, to a good degree, the EotH especially lacks a feeling of identity on land.  The New Republic has years worth of RTS tanks, the Empire has its signature walkers.  What does the EotH have?  To me, a few units with unoriginal names and relatively mundane unit functions.  I think some more...interesting, unorthodox ground units would help the EotH garner more attention.  (the Megamaser Tank, for example, I believe is a step in the right direction.  But the "Kirov" tank, which you're talking of removing anyway, and the "Rapid Fire Tank?")

The only thing that I think can be called a "novelty" among the NR and IR land units is that the IR has walkers, nothing else is particularly special about them, especially compared to the EotH stuff. EotH probably has more diversity in its few units, regardless; a tank that shoots a high powered blast that, if it doesn't miss, will destroy anything in one or two shots, a tank that shoots fire, a speeder bike with a rocket guy on it, etc. The RFT is the only one that's more mundane. I agree the names aren't that great, but it's the exact same as the IR in that respect. They do what they say on the tin (in fact the Imperial roots of the.

Someone mentioned that they seem to lack an identity. Now I felt that back in 1.1, when they still had cloaking abilities on a couple of their ships, that helped to distinguish them. Is that a possibility? That was one of the things that help separate the Zann Consortium in FoC.

Well, the reason for that is the meshes didn't actually work properly. If we're building a faction with an identity centered around something, we'd like to have it functioning properly.

Also, I know that with the Hand of Thrawn, the EtoH get a lot of intel across the galaxy that the IR and NR don't get. I actually find that really interesting, so how about expanding upon that? The IR has to use probe droids to see everything on a planet, the NR need cracken or some stealth units to even get an inkling of what's going on while the EtoH always get to track fleet movements and fleet pop counts, heroes, and the largest ships of a fleet. How about letting them see the full compositions of enemy fleets?

We've tried, it's not possible.

Since we're more or less done the EotH restoration project (the Ascendancy being almost finished), we'll be able to expand on them more, so we'll be taking this feedback into account. I agree that there's something to be said for their lack of presence in the expanded universe and therefore the lack of player identification to a certain extent, though there's not much we can do about that. Really, this is their strength too. We're able to play around with them in ways we can't with the others.