Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Razgriz on March 06, 2008, 06:57:34 AM
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And Revan is nothing compared to Luke Skywalker, you cant argue that
Lol yes he is. If you toss Revan a "Modern" lightsaber he could take down Luke Skywalker easily. All the Ancient Sithlords could
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there is sort of a deterioation of the lightsaber skill with time in the galaxy. look at what kreia said in kotor 2 regarding ajunta pall.
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there is sort of a deterioation of the lightsaber skill with time in the galaxy. look at what kreia said in kotor 2 regarding ajunta pall.
Exactly thats the quote i was looking for. It was like "We would pale in comparrison with the masters of the lightsabers arts millenia ago" or something. And that was 4000 years before Luke Skywalker.
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Too bad Luke is pretty much the most powerful jedi, so i dont give a crap what any game says, Luke is far better than Revan
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there is sort of a deterioation of the lightsaber skill with time in the galaxy. look at what kreia said in kotor 2 regarding ajunta pall.
Exactly thats the quote i was looking for. It was like "We would pale in comparrison with the masters of the lightsabers arts millenia ago" or something. And that was 4000 years before Luke Skywalker.
Just because the Jedi/Sith of c4000 BBY were weaker than the Jedi/Sith millenia prior to them, doesnt mean that the trend continued for the next 4000 years.
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but it is very likely, with the exception of a few eg. mace windu w/vapaad.
yeah, an luke is... well... ok, but i think he is best credited as restoring the jedi order, not as a opponent.
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Are you kidding me? He's constantly referred to as the most powerful jedi.
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Besides, the reason battle skills are lost would be because they would not have needed them for peace. They would have been taught sloppy techniques, while Luke had to learn pretty much from scratch, without these preconceived notions on what is "proper". He would have pushed himself to greater and greater standards.
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i'll stick to what i know. i am not an expert post-4 ABY, so i am in terms of this community, a b it of a sw idiot.
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there is sort of a deterioation of the lightsaber skill with time in the galaxy. look at what kreia said in kotor 2 regarding ajunta pall.
Exactly thats the quote i was looking for. It was like "We would pale in comparrison with the masters of the lightsabers arts millenia ago" or something. And that was 4000 years before Luke Skywalker.
Just because the Jedi/Sith of c4000 BBY were weaker than the Jedi/Sith millenia prior to them, doesnt mean that the trend continued for the next 4000 years.
yes it does
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And you're basing this on...?
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You'd have to be a complete idiot to believe nothing ever changes....
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And you're basing this on...?
the fact that the trend has already been continueing for thousands of years. besides scarecrow. things are changing for the worse
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Yoda had been around for a thousand years, and he got beaten by Palpatine, who had been around for (I assume) 100, who then got beat by Luke who had been around for about 30. (Dark Empire)
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yea but thats a prophecy being fullfilled so there was really no option of luke or the emperor losing
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Ah, but that doesn't make them any less powerful. It just means that their power was predicted.
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Luke killing Palpatine in Dark Empire wasn't part of a prophecy, neither was Palpatine beating Yoda..... Eitherwho, it is ALL predicted. Star Wars isn't exactly real.
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That too. And, we have ignored the other faction the Sith would have to fight: the Rebellion.
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I fyou try and deny that Luke Skywalker is the most powerful, you obviously aren't allowed to be a Star Wars fan
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but luke isn't the most powerful he has had his ass handed to him multiple times
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By people he later went back and beat the shit out of.
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yea but thats a prophecy being fullfilled so there was really no option of luke or the emperor losing
Luke has no part on the prophecy. He only acts as an catalyst for Anakin to redeem himself and kill Emperor. the prophecy refers to Anakin Skywalker. Who, in my mind, is more powerful than Luke. And if someone wants to argue about wheter the prophecy is about Anakin or Luke, it's said by George Lucas himself that it is about Anakin.
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luke is what the jedi thought anakin skywalker was. he brought balance back to the light after vader turned it to the dark.
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Luke wasn't even near that strong in the force as Anakin was before he was forced in the suit. Anakin lost much of his power in Mustafar.
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No, Luke and Leia have exactly the same amount of Force potential as Anakin had, as his direct descendants (this is why Palpatine was so scared when he found out about Luke, because he knew how much of a threat he was). And, as the canon has progressed, Luke has fulfilled much of that potential, he is far more knowledgeable of the Force, has more skill with a lightsaber, and has control over more complex and powerful Force powers.
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But Anakin was created by using the force. Luke and Leia weren't. So they won't as powerful as Anakin could have been. But still Leia and Luke have massive amount of force powers. but not as much as Anakin.
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Luke also studied for a longer period of time than Anakin, since Luke spent his entire adult life learning new techniques, while Anakin, by your own statement, lost most of his power at Mustafar.
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yes. but before that he was much more powerful than Luke.
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If he was so much more powerful, howd he get his ass whooped by Kenobi?
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because kenobi had expierence that vader didn't have.
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he didn't focus. he was so vengeful because he though that all had betrayed him. therefore he didn't fight his best. and yes Kenobi had experience and was one of the finest swordsman in the order.
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Did you watch the duel? That was the most fast-past, grueling duel in the movies. They fought better in that duel than any other fight-scene they had. And, as I said, Anakin had only been studying combat for about 10 years, Luke has been for the past 40.
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he didn't focus. he was so vengeful because he though that all had betrayed him. therefore he didn't fight his best. and yes Kenobi had experience and was one of the finest swordsman in the order.
I thought all the hate and such was supposed to make a Sith stronger (and thats what he was by that stage)?
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if i remember right, anakin got cocky. at the time when obi wan beat anakin, anakin was doing that leap to defy the jedi council, who said that the advantage was in the higher ground or something. in the end, the higher ground is what defeated him.
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exactly my point.
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vader had the dark side kenobi had expierence.
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I just want to say Luke Skywalker is definatly not the most powerful Jedi of All time it may not be Darth Revan but there were more Sith and Jedi alot More Powerful then him.
I mean we can just look at the use of the explosive force powers back then in ancient times. Compare Force Storm to Force Lighting, Force Plague, Drain Life. These powers were never used in the current era
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Force storm IS force lightning in a larger radius. For all we know, Palpatine could have been taking the power required for storm and concentrating it into a smaller radius, making it even more damaging.
In which case, Luke should be applauded for withstanding such an extended attack.
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I mean we can just look at the use of the explosive force powers back then in ancient times. Compare Force Storm to Force Lighting, Force Plague, Drain Life. These powers were never used in the current era
Just because certain Force powers werent used in more recent times doesnt mean that the Force users are weaker - It could be that the knowledge of those techniques have been lost, or that the Force user chooses not to use them. I mean, i cant see Luke using Force Storm, Force Plague or Drain Life..
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yeah. and how about that force "bring back from death" used in the legacy era? that much require much force power and there is no mention of it in the age of old republic. at least as far as I know.
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losing knowledge of power is what makes the jedi and sith of the current era weaker than that of the old republic.
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Not knowing how to do something doesnt make you weak.
And I don't care what your opinion is, Luke IS the most powerful jedi, otherwise you find me someplace that says otherwise.
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isamu, lost knowledge can be rediscovered and throughout star wars, it can. take rare abilities. some jedi would have to learn from themselves, not to mention the people who originally discovered abilities. if it happened then, it can happen later.
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he didn't focus. he was so vengeful because he though that all had betrayed him. therefore he didn't fight his best. and yes Kenobi had experience and was one of the finest swordsman in the order.
I thought all the hate and such was supposed to make a Sith stronger (and thats what he was by that stage)?
this is all true
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So, you say that by being vengeful and hating, Anakin was more powerful and stronger, but was blinded by this hatred, negating it's affect?
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pure rage can do amazing things kiet. you would be surprised.
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Kiet isn't refuting that, Kiet is referring to your post claiming two opposite things are both true.
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Exactly, and you didn't answer my question.
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I always miss all the good arguments!
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okay here is how it works. and i take martial arts so i have expierence to back me up. in fact my black belt test is this saturday. okay. anger makes you powerful however, anger. can make you stupid at the same time. while your speed and agility increase, your ability to think through complex movies diminishes. do you see where i am going? anakin lacked the amount of training to stay focused under intense conditions such as that. with the force since you can see things coming, obi-wan was able to block everything anakin was throwing at him. if you noticed obi-wan was fighting defensivly and anakin was very aggressive.
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And Luke has even more experience than Obi-wan at the time, and possibly ever, considering the threats Luke faced that neither Anakin or Obi-wan did....
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yes and luke is more powerful than the 2 because of expierence.
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That was my point, Anakin had raw power, but Luke was far better trained and had learned a lot more.....
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So, ultimately, Luke is the most powerful Jedi. Im glad we're all in agreement about this!
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Amen
No.
So say we all.
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I agree-Luke was TECHNICALLY the most powerful Jedi considering his experience, but Anakin had raw power, and if he actually possessed as much experience as Obi-Wan, he would have killed poor old Obi. The only reason Darth Vader lost to Luke in Ep 6 was because he had all thiose injuries from Ep 3, and plus that massive steel suit he was in would seriously hinder him, so he was exceedingly slow, much like a turtle.
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Amen
No.
So say we all.
that made my day a little better after wasl! ;D
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Actually Vader lost because Luke used his anger to overcome Vader. But still I say Anakin is the most powerful Jedi in the history. He was far stronger than Luke ever before the incidnet at Mustafar. there he lost a great deal of his powers. but posessed enough to keep himself alive until the emperor came. Not something you can do if you are weak. Luke can never get even near as powerful than Anakin was before going to the suit. Not even if Luke trains and pratices 100 years. Which he can't.
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i'm still going to stick with revan
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Not even if Luke trains and pratices 100 years. Which he can't.
Eh, you can't be too sure of that. There isn't any mention of a life expectancy for human jedi who have not had the happy little problem of running into a lightsaber.
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Lol I know that Luke won because he implemented his rage, but still, Darth Vader would have won if he wasn't in that suit. Which would imply that he defeated Obi-Wan, which would also imply he didn't save Padme before she gave birth, which would then imply there is no Luke to confront him. But I think actually, it's either Anakin or Revan that were the dominant Jedi/Sith.
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Not even if Luke trains and pratices 100 years. Which he can't.
Eh, you can't be too sure of that. There isn't any mention of a life expectancy for human jedi who have not had the happy little problem of running into a lightsaber.
what? be sure he can't practice a 100 years? yes I can. He is dead by 130 ABY. and just to clarify I meant that even if he practices 100 forward from 40 ABY. That's my belief.
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i think some human jedi have been known to live for up to 200 years. but yes, luke is dead by 130ABY.
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or then he is the first one to be able to come in force ghost form while alive.
And for that earlier comment few days back that Sith from 4000 BBY were stronger those in clone wars and galactic civil war era, Darth Sidious A.K.A. emperor Palpatine was the strongest Sith Lord in the history. And he personally said that Darth Vader A.K.A. Anakin would be even stronger.
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Not knowing how to do something doesnt make you weak.
And I don't care what your opinion is, Luke IS the most powerful jedi, otherwise you find me someplace that says otherwise.
Actually not knowing how to do something that you're opponet can greatly weaken you (Especially when we are talking about force powers here)
And you just pretty much bashed yourself because 1. I don't have an opinion there are/were sith/jedi more powerful then Luke Skywalker. No where does George Lucas state that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi of all time, he was just the last of the jedi
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Apparently, in one of the DVD releases of The Empire Strikes Back, Lucas stated in a Directors commentary that Luke has the same Force potential as his father, which is why both Darth Vader and the Emperor were willing to turn on each other to gain Luke as their apprentice. Luke is said to represent Anakin's full potential, if Anakin had lived to achieve it rather than suffer the horrible fate that made him more machine than man. Lucas further measures that Luke's Force potential was twice as powerful as Emperor Palpatine.
I'll see if i can get a direct quote from the commentary later.
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or then he is the first one to be able to come in force ghost form while alive.
He WAS dead by 130 ABY, but he was born in about 20 bby, and started practicing at 0 BBY. Its highly unlikely, but there is still a possibility that he practiced for 100 years (0-100 ABY).
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Actually not knowing how to do something that you're opponet can greatly weaken you (Especially when we are talking about force powers here)
And you just pretty much bashed yourself because 1. I don't have an opinion there are/were sith/jedi more powerful then Luke Skywalker. No where does George Lucas state that Luke is the most powerfull Jedi of all time, he was just the last of the jedi
Not knowing something doesn't make you weaker, just less experienced perhaps.
And no, they were not jedi/sith more powerful than him, thats the whole point of a prophecy and such
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what is the longest a human jedi has lived naturally? all i see is them getting themselves killed.
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That's because we never hear from times of peace. Who wants to play/read/watch a Jedi gardening?
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yea but still... in terms of life expectancy it would be nice to know.
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Considering a "normal" human like Pellaeon can reach his mid 90's, i suspect Jedi could live a fair bit longer.
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One character, a non force user at that, lived to be 120.
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im pretty sure that is the maximum amount of time a human being can sustain its own life too.
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A'sharad Hett (Darth Krayt) is about 190, and he's still going.
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Yeah, but didnt he put himself in stasis periodically in order to reach that?
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Indeed he did, but all that going in and out of stasis did not help him, by this I mean going in and out effected him negatively, not that his time in stasis did not matter because of it. Just that this took away from it.
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he's sith though so he can probably stay alive through hate alone like darth sion
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I don't think it matters whether you're a jedi or not, the life expectancy is the same.
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its possible with how advanced their medical science is.
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ok. sion wasn't really alive in the same way. he was a twisted personification of the dark side of the force. as was nihilus.
i think a jedi could reach 200 years old at max. however, i know of no documented cases of this i only know from wookieepedia. krayt lived for 190, in part from stasis, in part from vord'unn crab armour, and in part from the dark side.
oh, and genetically, boba fett was 140 years old in 40 ABY.
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oh, and genetically, boba fett was 140 years old in 40 ABY.
What? :-\
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boba fett wasn't that old.
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he was 70 in 40ABY, but as a clone, aged twice as fast. therefore, he was 140, genetically.
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he was 70 in 40ABY, but as a clone, aged twice as fast. therefore, he was 140, genetically.
Nope, Boba was genetically identical to Jango - No alterations, and no age enhancement.
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Apart from his pay, which is considerable, Fett demanded only one thing. An unaltered clone for himself
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A'sharad Hett (Darth Krayt) is about 190, and he's still going.
Wait A'sharad Hett is Darth Krayt? I havent Been keeping up with the legacy series (Only the first one is at the Barnes and Noble near me.) I think he fought alongside Anakin Skywalker in the Clone Wars i read a comic about it.
Not knowing something doesn't make you weaker, just less experienced perhaps.
And no, they were not jedi/sith more powerful than him, thats the whole point of a prophecy and such
The prophecy just stated he would bring balance to the force, not that he would be the most powerfull jedi of all time.
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He had the highest ever recorded Midi-Chlorian count of any Jedi - And the Midi-Chlorian's dictated strength in the Force.
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Which is BS made up by Lucas after the fact to get whiners to shut up. And, here's another point; How do we know Anakin was at his full potential? After all, he had only been training for 13 years!!!
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Hmmmmm....this is a really tough one, considering alll the arguments you guys have stated. Yes, Anakin was not necessarily the most powerful Jedi ever due to him being the subject of the PRophecy, and that Midi-Chlorian fiction was invented by George Lucas to silence any objections or questions regarding the true power of each Jedi-naturally people would think that Yoda was more powerful due to his limitless experience, or even Palpatine and Obi-Wan because they were his masters.
Luke was slightly weaker than Anakin, I would imagine, though I dont think this has been proven. As I said, Luke probably only defeated Vader because Vader was in that suit, but that suit is central to half the story, and of course, if Anakin had not been stopped, there would be no Luke. It's similar to the General Grievous and Obi-Wan duel-Grievous had killed many Jedi single-handedly with little to no difficulty, but when he kidnapped Palpatine, his throat was crushed, which explains his racking cough. It also explains why Obi-Wan beat him, because I do not think Grievous would have lost if he wasn't injured. Come to think of it, Grievous was not a force user, but he still managed to kill hundreds of Jedi, which kinda leads me to believe that if Grievous HAD been a force-user, he would have easily been the most powerful,at least with a light-saber, and he would be nigh unkillable.
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throat crushed? Grievous had no throat that could have been crushed. His internal organs were damaged, that's the reason of his cough. And Grievous killed jedi because he has a part droid. that gave him un-naturally good reflexes. And to be fair Grievous would have won Obi-Wan had Obi not been able to use force to take the blaster. So more of a luck than skill.
And yes. A'Sharad Hett was a jedi during the Clone Wars but after it he fell to the dark side while plotting revenge to the sith. so he became one and found the new sith order.
And about those midi-chlorians. they're not BS. If Lucas says or does something that is related to SW it's real in that universe. Lucas created it. He is the God of SW. His word is the law. Midi-Chlorians were made up by Lucas, therefore they aren't BS just because you don't think they're good/right explanation to how much strength in force one has.
And yes Anakin wasn't up to his full potential at the time of Order 66. Palpatine said it: "Lord Vader will BEcome more powerful than either of us." referring to himself and Yoda. doesn't become mean like will be in the future.
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i disagree, if grievous had been a force user, he wouldn't have been mostly robot.
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well he got his injuries from a shuttle crash and when he seemed to survive with minor damage which could have been repaired, Dooku ordered that Grievous' body had to be damaged more so that he would be made a cyborg. and to keep him alive he used the force-rich blood of Sifo-Dyas. And I don't see how Grievous being force sensitive had made any difference.
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he wouldn't have been killed so easily by kenobi if at all if he were a force user. i dont think he would be super power ful. the most powerful sith and jedi have relied on the force more than a lightsaber.
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I wouldn't say that it was easy for Kenobi to kill Grievous.
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Even if Grievous had been a Force user, it wouldnt have made any difference after he became Cyborg - Remember how much Force power Vader lost after the Mustafar incident? He had the highest Midi-Chlorian count of any Jedi (which being in the films, is 100% canonical) and still became so much weaker. Also Grievous was much more Cyborg than Vader, so would have been even weaker in the Force.
Oh, and aNaRcHiSt, Lucas has apparently stated that Luke had exactly the same Force potential as Anakin before Mustafar.
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where did he state that? if someone wants to go and check.
And I also like to point that the idea of midi-chlorians is not a new one. It was first mentioned by Lucas in 1977!
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Apparently, in one of the DVD releases of The Empire Strikes Back, Lucas stated in a Directors commentary that Luke has the same Force potential as his father, which is why both Darth Vader and the Emperor were willing to turn on each other to gain Luke as their apprentice. Luke is said to represent Anakin's full potential, if Anakin had lived to achieve it rather than suffer the horrible fate that made him more machine than man. Lucas further measures that Luke's Force potential was twice as powerful as Emperor Palpatine.
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I never said it wasn't canon, but it was the cheap way out. Why did he need to explain the force? It existed, get over it. It was like Jar Jar. Annoying.
And, here's another point. Could Anakin immerse himself in the force as far as his potential will allow? Doesn't it work like stretching, the more you do it, the further you go.
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get your words right. i hate that chewbacca died in the YV war, but i accept it as canon. same principle with jar-jar. midi-cholirans were force potential, not dirextly force power. anakin was not fully trained. had he been fully reained, he would be an incredibly powerful jedi. luke, as the son., also gotincredible force potential. and there seems to be something about twins which make jedi more powerful. i.e. jacen&jaina, luke&leia. soluke was very powerful.
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Here's another thing, name one ability Anakin could do that Luke can't.
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He had the supreme ability of being able to kill 6 year olds.
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you can say that abut virtually any jedi. name me one thing anakin could do that revan couldn't.
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that is a really hard one to do.
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it is an example. you can't really answer easily.
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most jedi and sith were capable of things they werent aware of as well.
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i meant as in what they are documented as doing.
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luke was definately the most powerful jedi of his time but his training was mostly just him teaching himself after yoda and obi-wan died. Some jedi from before the empire were more powerful than he was because they had studied under learned masters for a long time.
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i think strike has just put this in perfect perspective. of his time. this applies to pretty much all we have talked about. and possibly just ended this.
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Not really. Luke was as powerful as Anakin could have been (had Mustafar not happened) and twice as powerful as Palpatine, who had previously defeated the best of the Old Republic Jedi (Yoda, Mace Windu, etc). And Yoda was one of the most powerful Jedi in history. So if Luke > Palpatine > Yoda that means that Luke has to be one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful Jedi ever.
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i give up in this argument. too many people solidly convinced their side is correct. the force capabilities of old pwn what is known today.
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the force capabilities of old pwn what is known today.
Which Force capabilities?
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force storm, force master speed, force scream, force drain life, force drain force, force cripple, battle meditation (just recently rediscovered by jacen) any more you want i can get.
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force storm
Isnt that the same as Force Lightning?
force master speed
Using the Force for a speed boost is a common power!
force scream
That tends to be Dark Jedi/Sith just before they die - Palpatine, Joruus C'boath..
force drain life, force drain force
These two are essentially the same, but i'll concede it. Although, it was lost, and isnt something that someone like Luke would use in any case.
force cripple
I cant find any reference to this one at all.
battle meditation (just recently rediscovered by jacen)
Used by Yoda in the Clone Wars, so not that old - I also believe that Luke has studied it.
How about some of the achievements Luke achieved?
- Single handedly piloted the Millennium Falcon using the Force, to an extent greater than that of a normal crew.
- Used the White Current illusion to hide Jade's Shadow, and create a Force illusion simultaneously. And create a Force Illusion visible only to Jacen (a powerful Sith Lord), that completely fooled him.
- Use of Force Enlightenment in the battle of Yuuzhan'tar.
- Use of Electric Judgment against a Vong Slayer.
- Use of Force Stasis on Jacen during the battle of Kuat.
- Use of Force Concealment to the extent of blocking everyone except for Ben during the battle of Kashyyyk.
- Greatest lightsaber swordsman (various forms, single/dual lightsaber), certainly since the Clone Wars.
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- Single handedly piloted the Millennium Falcon using the Force, to an extent greater than that of a normal crew.
scion did this with a hammerhead cruiser.
and i cant think of the name of it but it is a super force push. and force storm affects all enemies, not just one concetrated one.
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But Force Storm is still pretty much the same as Force Lightning, its just not concentrated. Nothing special.
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it gets a massive damage boost.
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<Sigh>
It seems to have degraded to a side of Luke supporters, and a side of KotOR Sith Lord supporters.
Luke may have been one of the best with the lightsaber, but that doesnt necessarily mean strength in the force does that for him. Look at Grievous; he is part droid and was extremely good with lightsabers, and I think he would have been even if he wasnt a cyborg, though of coruse not AS good. I might just revive an old point here; Grievous was incessantly skilled. And I am pretty sure on Wiki that it said that his throat was crushed in a duel with Windu, which explains the cough. This is why I think Grievous would have been possibly the most unstoppable Jedi in the CLone Wars: if he had force powers when he fought Dooku, he would have resisted the grip and used his own force powers to aid him. And think about it; without that crushed throat hindering him, he would have easily beaten Obi Wan, and Obi Wan won by luck nonetheless. If Grievous was a force user, even if only a mildly powerful one, he would have become the best warrior with the lightsaber in history.
For my first few sentences, dont call me an idiot because I am referencing Grievous on force power isnt determined by lightsaber skill, because one can be extremeley agile without force help, or extremely intelligent and good with tactical decisions. I also believe that KotOR Sith/Jedi would pawn the Sith/Jedi of recent times, because that was a time when force powers were stronger and more was known.
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You realize you absolutely no evidence towards your argument?
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I have the evidence of the KotOR games, the canon, the people here (what they post), so that is more than enough evidence. And concerning Gievous, it is information drawn from Wikipedia AND common sense.
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No, what people post is not evidence, nothing in the games suggest jedi/sith were so much better back then and I have no idea what "canon" you are talking about
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Look at Grievous; he is part droid and was extremely good with lightsabers, and I think he would have been even if he wasnt a cyborg, though of coruse not AS good. I might just revive an old point here; Grievous was incessantly skilled. And I am pretty sure on Wiki that it said that his throat was crushed in a duel with Windu, which explains the cough. This is why I think Grievous would have been possibly the most unstoppable Jedi in the CLone Wars: if he had force powers when he fought Dooku, he would have resisted the grip and used his own force powers to aid him. And think about it; without that crushed throat hindering him, he would have easily beaten Obi Wan, and Obi Wan won by luck nonetheless. If Grievous was a force user, even if only a mildly powerful one, he would have become the best warrior with the lightsaber in history.
If Grievous hadnt been a Cyborg he would have been useless with a lightsaber. Although an exceptionally skilled warrior, he wasnt Force sensitive, and the great strength/agility he exhibited during the Clone Wars was purely down to his Cybernetic body.
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What people say IS evidence, because it supports my point, therefore it's evidence. And plus, I doubt that a lot of people with the same general idea are wrong. You obviously dont pay attention to the games do you? Ehem;
Jedi Academy-The Scepter of Ragnos (and Ragnos is actually canon-look him up, and it has alot of infor on him that does not base from the game), and that probably means that the Scepter is too, and even if it isnt, there were most likely other ones.
KotOR-Some of the Force powers in the KotOR games were much more powerful than their modern counterparts, and much knowledge of the KotOR era was lost when the SIth disappeared, and so-on. The Jedi and Sith forgot much of their abilities, and that is ALSO stated on the Wiki's.
Btw SLornie-I know that much of his skill was drawn from his cybernetix body-such as the ability to judge the movements and style of his enemies. He would have still been a very good lightsaber wielder, just not as 'intelligent' in that area. I know he wasnt force sensitive, I was saying that if he was, he would ahve been exceptionally dominant. How many Jedi did he kill during the CLone Wars? Quite a few, wasnt it? ANd that wasnt with force powers, so imagine what he would be like WITH force powers.
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What people say IS evidence, because it supports my point, therefore it's evidence. And plus, I doubt that a lot of people with the same general idea are wrong. You obviously dont pay attention to the games do you? Ehem;
What parts of my evidence support your point?
Jedi Academy-The Scepter of Ragnos (and Ragnos is actually canon-look him up, and it has alot of infor on him that does not base from the game), and that probably means that the Scepter is too, and even if it isnt, there were most likely other ones.
KotOR-Some of the Force powers in the KotOR games were much more powerful than their modern counterparts, and much knowledge of the KotOR era was lost when the SIth disappeared, and so-on. The Jedi and Sith forgot much of their abilities, and that is ALSO stated on the Wiki's.
Force powers in games are always exaggerated, so that point is null. When Force Unleashed is released, and you play with the Force powers of its main character, i fully expect him to have totally OP Force powers, in order to make a good game.
Btw SLornie-I know that much of his skill was drawn from his cybernetix body-such as the ability to judge the movements and style of his enemies. He would have still been a very good lightsaber wielder, just not as 'intelligent' in that area. I know he wasnt force sensitive, I was saying that if he was, he would ahve been exceptionally dominant. How many Jedi did he kill during the CLone Wars? Quite a few, wasnt it? ANd that wasnt with force powers, so imagine what he would be like WITH force powers.
Right, Anakin, with the greatest Force potential of the age, lost most of his potential after Mustafar. If Grievous had been Force sensitive, he would obviously have been weaker in the Force than Anakin, and he became far more Cyborg than Anakin, so would have lost even more of his Force potential - He was pretty much just brain, eyes and internal organs stuffed inside a robot. So really, he wouldnt have any Force powers worth mentioning.
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When I say a person's points are evidence, I dont mean yours, obviously I mean the people who have the smae idea as I do. I know they are generally exaggerated, but the fact of the matter is that there are many force powers that are forgotten in modern times, adn many of the powers lost were some of the more potent ones. ANd I know that he would ahve been a weak force user no matter what, but what I am saying is that even with some degree of force power, he would have been so much better than he was when he died, and even then he was still nearly unbeatable.
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there are several proofs that show how the sith and jedi from longer ago are more powerful than the sith and jedi of the current day. all of it canon.
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See? Isamu pots information that also supports mine, hence it is also evidence. Thanks Isamu.
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your welcome, however it will take more than just the 2 of us.
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Yeah, but there is a whole group of people who have supported us in the past, and there are a few on this thread that do as well. We are not alone.
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aNaRcHiSt44 and Isamu
Only you claim that sith and jedi of old are more powerful than those of today. and then you use your own and each others posts to back it up. that you say it doesn't make it real. I agree with Slornie force are always exaggerated in games. and not all that happens in game it canon. In Ep III video game Anakin must first to kill the CIS council guards and then even destroy Gunrays shuttle. none of that happened in the movie. I think that that is the best example to show that games aren't always accurate.
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there are several proofs that show how the sith and jedi from longer ago are more powerful than the sith and jedi of the current day. all of it canon.
What proofs?
See? Isamu pots information that also supports mine, hence it is also evidence. Thanks Isamu.
He says there is proof, but doesnt give a source for this information, so it cant really be called evidence.
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I would really like to see these "proofs" of yours.
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So if Luke > Palpatine > Yoda that means that Luke has to be one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful Jedi ever.
if thats true then windu beat palpatine in ep.3 then palpatine beat yoda so windu > palpatine > Yoda then windu is more powerful then yoda (not really true at all). There really is no way of deciding who is best jedi its just your opinion. Luke is still one of the greatest jedi of all time.
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So, you think that Palpatine, who could easily have sensed Anakin and defeated Yoda, didn't let Mace win? And, i have seen no evidence that says Anakin, who has (as everyone agrees) tremendous force potential, can preform feats that Luke can't, while the opposite IS true. Luke can stealth. Name one book/movie/comc/game where Anakin can. I believe that, if Anakin had not fallen and the Jedi Order had remained intact, with Palpatine dying at aces hand (expecting Anakin to help him), then Anakin would have gotten more powerful than Luke is. But this isn't about "what if" , this is about what is.
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it's kinda hard to go stealth when you're mostly made of metal and electronic parts. And I haven't heard Luke can stealth. He can make some think that they don't see him but all jedi and sith can do that. And what Anakin did but Luke didn't? Did Luke ever liberate a planet all by himself? Did Luke kill the Emperor?
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luke did help a planet to rise up against the empire.
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I don't think that's the same as liberating almost by yourself only.
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On the topic of Force Storm/Lightning....
Revan used it to kill everyone in a room. Very powerful, yes.
Palpatine used it with the intent of destroying an entire New Republic fleet. If Luke and Leia had not stepped in, he would have succeeded. As it is, the Storm was sent back against the Eclipse and Palpatine, both of which got completely fried.
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revan did a lot of things that palpatine also did.
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Example?
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This might take a while...
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So, you think that Palpatine, who could easily have sensed Anakin and defeated Yoda, didn't let Mace win? And, i have seen no evidence that says Anakin, who has (as everyone agrees) tremendous force potential, can preform feats that Luke can't, while the opposite IS true. Luke can stealth. Name one book/movie/comc/game where Anakin can. I believe that, if Anakin had not fallen and the Jedi Order had remained intact, with Palpatine dying at aces hand (expecting Anakin to help him), then Anakin would have gotten more powerful than Luke is. But this isn't about "what if" , this is about what is.
no, im saying that while palpatine could do those things he wasnt as skilled with a lightsaber as mace is with vapaad... its showing that your logic is flawed... there is no good way to say 1 jedi is better than all others...
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It was the Duskan league stuff where Luke could stealth. I believe (shifty eyes). And I never said Luke was better, just more powerful. Better would indicate who did the most good for the galaxy (that isn't as clear-cut). And, Mace was a test for Anakin. Palpatine had been preparing for the conflict, he just wasn't expecting it so soon.
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I really need to do research on these topics....
Anyway, evidence is shown through words or images, so technically, I was showing evidence, even if it hasnt been proven. The proof? Look it up on Wookiepedia. Is it proven that force powers in games are exaggerated? For example; it seems in JA that you cant jump anywhere near as high as Jedi in the movies, which seems to undermine evidence from the movies. Just because lightning and grip and all that are so uber powerful, doesnt mean that they werent like that in actual canon.
Now back on topic; strike is actually correct-there isnt a good way to judge whether a Jedi is better than all others, unless you pit them against all other Jedi in a massive death match, but that would most definitely end up being degraded to chance. I think Luke did so much for the galaxy, and he is seen as one of the most heroic figures ever. Even though he fell to the dark side at one point (or so I have seen), he emerged as a pure person, uncorrupted by power.
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This topic isn't about better, just more powerful! And the movies are the most canon sources there are, so the games are always undermined first, not the other way around.
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I know, but people shouldnt rush to conclusions over it. It was merely an example.
The most powerful Jedi-that really is a tough one still, but like before, I go with Luke.
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Well Slornie has said it several times that Lucas keeps Anakin and Luke equally powerful. And what Lucas says is right. So that should end this discussion.
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He said they were equally powerful? Well that does undermine any further arguments if it is true.
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Im with Meyer. If Lucas said their potential is equal then they would have always been equal if Anakin didn't turn into Darth Vader. But if were talking about 'what is' then Luke. Vader never defeated Palpatine. But Luke defeated him (his clone, who was supposedly more powerful then before(Dark Empire)). Luke displayed so much power through out his life, did Anakin even come close to his feats at any point?
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EHEM
vader did defeat old man palpy
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Anakin also did great things during the clone wars. and he killed numerous jedi between 19 and 1 BBY. And it isn't sure that the clone dude was really Palpatine. that is mentioned in many sources. And there is always this talk about Luke doing many great things. but he hasn't really done anything very extraordinary. He has faced similar problems like many other jedi before him.
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luke killed shimraa! is tha not enough proof?
not to mention defeating lumiya and vader among other dark jedi.
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defeating lumiya, vader and other dark jedi and sith is no different from what others have done. and shimmra was mad. he was controlled by onimi and when he fled he couldn
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luke used the force on the yv when you couldn't even sense them in the force.
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they had the force. they were just confined to a subsector of the force not felt by jedi. qas shown by omini controlling shimraa using the force ( he could do this because he insertede yammosk tissue into his brain. (yammosks could use force on vong, as they effectively controlled them in battle.)
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well at least you knew what i meant.
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Anakin did things Luke never did-Anakin participated in a full blown war as a General-Luke was more of a Commando, and he didnt even fight that much during the GCW.
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Instead, he fought as a powerful leader against the Vong, who were far more deadly opponents.
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Are you kidding me? Luke has fought more wars than Anakin has, and was a more than a 'commando'
GCW
Thrawn Crisis
Correllian Insurrection
YV War
Dark Nest Crisis
Swarm War
Confederation-GA War
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Woops I forgot about those. :-\
I cant believe I forgot all of that stuff, my memory must be really failing, and I am only 13!!
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vader did fight more than luke. its a tough decision but if lucas said they are equal thats good enough for me.
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Right, ive split off the Galactic Civil War discussion, which you can now read here (http://gutr.swrebellion.com/forums/index.php/topic,760.0.html).