Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => The Lounge => Topic started by: Meyer on January 22, 2008, 02:01:06 AM
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What would you propose as the solution for problems in Africa? Those are many (civil wars, famine, etc) and heard very often. I would like some comments and/or propositions from people from other countries.
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well, stimulation of trade with them, and fair trade, at that. also, any aid should be donsations which do not have to be repaid. that is why africa re still in the current state. also though, the person in power is, to an extent, inhibiting. mufabe has run zimbabwe into the ground, for example, while others are more prosperous. none are hwat i classify as well off though.
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I personally think that all aid to Africa should be stopped. Countries in Africa are staying like they are now because it is more profitable to them than to do work and develop themselves. But if we stop all aid they'd be forced to do something themselves.
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that is a risky tactic. theproblem with aid is they are dependent on it, especially countries like malawi. we are in stalemate.
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One option would be natural selection. Stop all aid and do nothing for them. Naturer will find it's way. Will we like it or not that's a different matter.
I believe that there would be two ways that the natural selection could go. Either people in Africa start doing something themselves to survive and not just sit on their asses and wait help from other countries. Or they would continue all those wars and propably start new ones. In that case in few decades there wouldn't be anyone who needs aid or help in any form. Problem solved.
And cutting aid would help countries that stop giving it. Those two are my main solutions for problems in Africa. Not pretty but they get the job done I believe. Does anyone have any other ideas? Ideas that may be more human and doesn't end up killing all of population in Africa.
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What we (we meaning UN and NATO etc.) should do is take over all of Africa (if force is necessary than maybe not). Install leaders, allow businesses to go in and make headquarters, factories, warehouses, and the likes. Pay them with food! They will do anything for food like ours. All the companies have to do is pay McDonald's or something to come in and they get free workers. Also, we can make a deal where the companies must pay a fee to be there. The money will go to building schools and homes for children and to feeding the children. If donations stay steady than its covered.
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One thing i know about big business, they dont't like taxes/fees on their properties, if you charge them for being there they won't do it
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yeah. but if everybody in Africa would die then it could be used by big corporations that could buy/rent land from there. And the entire area of Sahara could be big solar power plant to calm the hippies.
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beyond neo-fascism and elitism, there is nothing we really can do.
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can you explain neo-fascism and elitism? some simple way so I don't have to read it on wikipedia and try to decide what is the point.
And if those are only options, then let's do nothing. It's no our fault they're having problems.
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It's no our fault they're having problems.
Actually, it probably is almost entirely our fault. (By we i mean the western world). We enslaved their people and bought the slaves, we sell them guns, we buy their diamonds, we caused ethnic tension by randomly creating borders back in the 1800's, and used up alot of their natural resources without repayment.
Lets look at Rwanda and the genocide there for example. Back when the Dutch had control, they created a system of racial classification, the Hutus and Tutsis. Now, before the Dutch did this, there was no such thing, everyone was the same. The Dutch put a minority they created in power and gave the minority more respect and such (Tutsis i think). When the Hutus took control of the government, they got pissed and then decided to arm the Hutu civilians with guns and machetes bought from us. Then they ran around killing Tutsis and troublesome Hutus (those that were against the killings). In the end almost 1 million died in 100 days. Not only is it our fault, we also chose to do nothing about it while it was going on and even pull out the UN troops already there, leaving less than a hundred i believe.
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yes mistakes were done back in the 1800's. But it isn't our fault. you should blame those whp actually did those things. And they're dead. And I can list a number of western countries that had no part in those things done in Africa. And are we saying to them that kill? Do we encourage them to have civil wars? Thta's their failure. And furthermore name one African highculture other than Egypt, which got lot of influence from mesopotamia.
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And I can list a number of western countries that had no part in those things done in Africa.
A list? Really? Show me this list.
And are we saying to them that kill? Do we encourage them to have civil wars? Thta's their failure.
Its their failure that we buy their rubber, gold and diamonds and sell them guns for it? It's their failure that diamonds are so valuable to us its worth fighting over?
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We have influenced Africa alot through history. Starting in the colonial/imperialism Af rica was a land grab for the imperial powers(Spain, France, Britain, Germany, etc.). We made borders that completly split up ethnic populations. In Rwanda the dutch and and other imperial powers that took over afterwards(Germany I believe) caused a great deal of seperation between the Tutsie and the Hutu tribe which eventually resulted in the mass genocide. In Sierra Leone, the western world's thirst for diamonds created a civil war that caused many deaths and the enslavement of people to mine diamonds. Oil is becoming a resource fought over in Africa too. The ability to make money fast has created corruption in many African countries. they never industrialized and modernized by themselves and therefore this has resulted in quite a few problems. Even now the conflicts in Afghanistan and iraq have pushed many extremists to move to the Horn Of Africa causing more civil war. The genocide in Darfur can be related back to us. Kenya is a mess now because of corruption and segregation between different religions. there's even a conflict most likely to result between Etritea and Ethiopia. Even less reported than Darfur this is. Thousands of troops have been mobilized to the Ethiopian/Etritean border. This results from the displacement of extremists from the Middle East caused by us. Most of these problems can be related back to us. So no Meyer it isn't JUST their failure. The whole world screwed up in that region. Foreign investment will keep causing corruption and the greed for money. After all most of the civil wars are about money which can be gained from resources by selling them to transnational corporations.
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it was the dextruction of the british empire in the 50s that left many african countries in trouble. the countries had new, weak national governments in place. many were taken by coup, such as libya, with gadaffi, but on the whole, it could all have been avoided by not having a slave trade and not building up an empire.
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Are we the people who did most of those things? The only thing that we can be held accountable for is some of the weapons and we try not to do that. One thing I know we are not responsible for is AIDS or any of their diseases. It is not our fault they marry so many times, spreading AIDES further. The greed and selfishness of past generations, who we differ greatly from, is not our fault.
By the way, big buisiness will do anything for cheap labor. For example, illegal immigration.
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And I can list a number of western countries that had no part in those things done in Africa.
A list? Really? Show me this list.
And are we saying to them that kill? Do we encourage them to have civil wars? Thta's their failure.
Its their failure that we buy their rubber, gold and diamonds and sell them guns for it? It's their failure that diamonds are so valuable to us its worth fighting over?
Well the list contains only European nations. Such as Ireland, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Baltic states. But if you now that some of those countries had colonies in Africa or colonies at all for that matter, please correct me. Only country of those that I know had a colony is Sweden who owned part of North-America.
And for the gun dispute. the biggest gun seller in the world is USA. So I fail to see how it is someones fault if he lives in Europe for example. But of course most of the guns wereshipped to Africa during the cold war. and as USSR no longer excist, the blame falls on USA.
USA should invade Africa. there's lot's of natural resources there. oil for example. And I doubt it would bug anyone as you would bring order and democracy to there.
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The blame does not fall on the U.S. for the weapons in Africa just because Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik does not exist any more. In fact most alot of the weapons currently in use in these areas are AK-47's due to proxy wars being fought during the Cold War. Besides the U.S. sells to governments not rebels. And yes it is all of our fault . The situation in Africa is being held up by our lifestyles. Lot's of the clothes you wear or products you buy had raw materials harvested in Africa. Alot of oil is also produced in Africa. Foreign investment will keep causing corruption and the greed for money. This in turn causes many battles and problems. So that list you provided is false because of the way the global economy works. The country leaders might not make direct decisions on the issue(even though indecision still affects Africa) every citizen in those countries has some how contributed to these problems. Also a full scale invasion would do Sh*t all. It would be exactly the same as Iraq's failure and would cause even more segregation between the people's of Africa. Democracy doesn't happen in the blink of an eye and If you pressure it upon a group they will naturally resist. Besides democracy is in alot of those countries but they suffer from corruption within the democratic system. So invading Africa would be as unsucessful as the president being Hillar....nvm. Anyways I think you get the point.
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And I can list a number of western countries that had no part in those things done in Africa.
A list? Really? Show me this list.
And are we saying to them that kill? Do we encourage them to have civil wars? Thta's their failure.
Its their failure that we buy their rubber, gold and diamonds and sell them guns for it? It's their failure that diamonds are so valuable to us its worth fighting over?
Well the list contains only European nations. Such as Ireland, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Baltic states. But if you now that some of those countries had colonies in Africa or colonies at all for that matter, please correct me. Only country of those that I know had a colony is Sweden who owned part of North-America.
And for the gun dispute. the biggest gun seller in the world is USA. So I fail to see how it is someones fault if he lives in Europe for example. But of course most of the guns wereshipped to Africa during the cold war. and as USSR no longer excist, the blame falls on USA.
USA should invade Africa. there's lot's of natural resources there. oil for example. And I doubt it would bug anyone as you would bring order and democracy to there.
I'm fining you 3000000 Internets for posting while incredibly fucking dumb.
Stop talking about shit your News fucks up for you, You stereotyping son of a bitch.
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USA should invade Africa. there's lot's of natural resources there. oil for example. And I doubt it would bug anyone as you would bring order and democracy to there.
No. Just no.
I mean, look how well that turned out in Iraq...
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can't really understand what you try to say, kalo.
And yes USA sells guns to government but still they end up in the hands of guergillas. And personally I don't care if every last man in Africa dies. I'm just sick of the news feeding bullshit to us. It's always said it's our fault. Why don't they do something themselves. All I have ever seen is some refugees just sitting on their asses while they receive foreign aid. Which also ends up to guergillas. And corruption is easily removed. People just have to say no. If it doesn't work use force. Don't just accept all shit what the "upper" class people throw on you.
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1. Please spell guerrilla right.
2. Stop stereotyping.
3. They can't f*cking do anything in a f*cking refugee camp. They are under armed guard and are kept there to protect them from the dangers of their country. They can't do anything in te camp because there is the danger of rebels and other dangerous people geting in.
4. You can't discern who recieves the aid, they all live together and for most rebels it is a side life to be fighting. They work and then if it is needed they fight.
5.Corruption is not easily removed, it never will be removed. Greed is part of the human nature and we can try but we will never fix that problem.
6. Force does sh*t all. It screwed up in Iraq against guerrilla warfare, it sure as hell will fail in Africa.
7. You realize you just said that you don't give a flying f*ck if 832,000,000 people die. That is just despicable
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you think so? Would you rather have them all to brought to western world where they will be safe from guerrillas? Would you rather have us send them aid every year so they can waste it to something useless? You say I'm despicable. I say I'm realist. I realize that it doesn't matter how much aid we send, they always want more. As I said before they benefit more when they receive aid than trying to do something themselves. Besides, human being is, as you said, greedy and always looks out for the number one: himself. I don't want that problems in Africa spread to other continents as well. Which they I believe if this goes on long enough. If it means that everyone in Africa has to die to ensure that Europe survives, so be it.
And I still say they brought it on themselves. Everything started to go downhill after they received independence. And now they scream our help to solve it.
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I don't remember at all saying I wanted all of them brought to the Western world. Could you please point that out in my post? Being a realist is not letting millions die. That's a lazy ass that doesn't even try to acomplish something in this world. There are logical ways to solve this but it will take time.
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I didn't say you said that bring to western world. but that's what is happening all the time. Or do you plan to keep them on the refuge camps forever? They seek shelter from, for example, Europe. If we turn them away we are the montsters. If we take them they get fax free living. And I should like them because they messed things too bad in their own country that they come to live in mine, while working population pays their living by paying taxes? I think not. Prize of independence is that you have to solve your own problems.
And why should I try to accomplish something to make world a better place? the global warning is going to destroy Earth in few decades they say. Not that I believe but it's a good excuse. :'(
And now that I have proven I can write guerrilla correctly, I think I start writing it wrongly again just to annoy you Enceladus. Because that's the kind of a guy I am: pain in the ass.
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I didn't say you said that bring to western world. but that's what is happening all the time. Or do you plan to keep them on the refuge camps forever? They seek shelter from, for example, Europe. If we turn them away we are the montsters. If we take them they get fax free living. And I should like them because they messed things too bad in their own country that they come to live in mine, while working population pays their living by paying taxes? I think not. Prize of independence is that you have to solve your own problems.
And why should I try to accomplish something to make world a better place? the global warning is going to destroy Earth in few decades they say. Not that I believe but it's a good excuse. :'(
And now that I have proven I can write guerrilla correctly, I think I start writing it wrongly again just to annoy you Enceladus. Because that's the kind of a guy I am: pain in the ass.
does it not even disturb you that you have a humanitarian record similar to josef stalin? killing innocent people means shit to you. if i were you, i would want to be locked up for fascist, borderline-nazi views. and america taking over africa? you are a misguided idiot, politicaly.
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All you do Meyer is blame every world problem on the US
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Global Warming hasn't even been prooved to be so dangerous, More like it's been proved but it's not doing shit.
And i'm saying shut up because you really don't know what you're talking about.
And Scarecrow nailed it, That's what every Foreign Country likes to do i've noticed. (Most of them)
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Well, seeing as the USA is supposedly the most powerful nation in the world, with the largest economy.. Who better to blame? :P
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usa are guilty of a lot, but they are not responsible for africa' problem. my opinion, it is mainly british fault (empire) but also french (also empire) and netherlands (also empire). my point? empires are bad.
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I'd say it is mainly the fault of those who attended the Berlin Conference in 1884, thats where they decided how they were going to divide up Africa between themselves
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All I do is talk. That's my way of getting attention. I don't care what USA does as long as they leave me alone.
And you Scarecrow are wrong. I don't blame everything on USA. I also blame jews, muslims, russians, immigrants and most importantly EU. Although I mostly blame EU on their doings in Europe because that's the place where it operates. But as Slornie said, USA is supposedly the most powerful country. And why don't I blame someone else than USA in these forums? Which one of you cares what happens in EU?
Kalo, you are absolutely right. The effects of Global Warming are exaggerated. And why do you think most countries blame usa on most things? Look in a mirror and you find your answers.
And vadereclipse. first you call me equal to stalin for some unknown reason and then you say I'm a nazi. A bit weird if you ask me. And if I were to cause the death of everyone in Africa at least I would be remembered in history books. Maybe with some added name like "The Butcher of Africa".
And to all three of you, I have one question. If you had to choose wheter you cause the death of everybody in Africa or USA, which one would you choose?
And if you don't like my idea of what to do about Africa, please tell me your suggestions. Should we all send them money?Should we allow them to slave us to "repay" for what was done to them? I'm all ears.
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Which one of you cares what happens in EU?
I care what happens in the EU, since it directly affects me here in the UK.
If you had to choose wheter you cause the death of everybody in Africa or USA, which one would you choose?
I would choose neither. There is no reason for causing the death of anyone anywhere. Killing does not solve anything.
And if you don't like my idea of what to do about Africa, please tell me your suggestions. Should we all send them money?Should we allow them to slave us to "repay" for what was done to them? I'm all ears.
We should continue providing aid to those in need (which isnt exclusively those in Africa); food, water, education, healthcare, infrastructure development, etc. Without such aid they will be locked into poverty, unable to develop in the modern, globalised world.
We should write off their international debts, since the odds are we wont get the money back anyhow, and at the moment, any money they do make tends to be barely sufficient to cover the interest on those loans.
We should encourage economic, cultural and political development; promoting free trade (without any strings or provisos attached), encouraging local customs (rather than pressing "western" ideas onto them), supporting democracy (and the human rights those people deserve).
Sure, this costs money, but the developed world has far more wealth than it needs - It isnt the people in the poorer nations who are greedy as you suggest, it is those in the affluent developed countries, who consume and dispose without a care for others, or the environment.
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Which one of you cares what happens in EU?
I care what happens in the EU, since it directly affects me here in the UK.
If you had to choose wheter you cause the death of everybody in Africa or USA, which one would you choose?
I would choose neither. There is no reason for causing the death of anyone anywhere. Killing does not solve anything.
But in here don't live in EU area and that question was pointed to them. but good to know there is someone who cares for things done in EU. And for the other the whole point of the question is you have to choose one.
And you just said the most important reason why aid send to Africa doesn't affet so greatly as it could. Those who have money, living mostly in Europe and USA, don't want to give it up. So the burden is on the tax payers who can barely make a living themselves. And that's my point. People have enough problem in Europe and USA to care about Africa.
I fixed the quoting Meyer. ;)
~Enceladus~
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you just quoted his post quoting your post?
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And for the other the whole point of the question is you have to choose one.
Perhaps, but my point is that, apart from the inconceivable possibility of causing the death of all those in the USA or Africa, deliberately causing the death of even one person, be it through accident or design, is something i consider to be morally wrong. And that killing anyone does not actually solve anything, and is just a pointless waste of life.
So the burden is on the tax payers who can barely make a living themselves.
Yet, the "barely make a living" as you call it, is a considerably improved state of existence to that of many people in less developed countries. Those who "barely make a living" in developed countries dont starve, and have access to education, healthcare, fresh and clean water supplies, which is the norm in many less developed countries.
People have enough problem in Europe and USA to care about Africa.
Yet people do care. All the numerous charities raising money to help people in Africa, the appeals after major disasters, the broad news coverage. Then there is the high position afforded to Africa, international development, and aid in both national and international politics.
EDIT:
you just quoted his post quoting your post?
No, he is replying to my post, but has accidentally put the quote formatting in the wrong place. I would fix it, but Beta Testers dont have mod powers.
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No, he is replying to my post, but has accidentally put the quote formatting in the wrong place. I would fix it, but Beta Testers dont have mod powers.
Neither do bad kittys :'(
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And vadereclipse. first you call me equal to stalin for some unknown reason and then you say I'm a nazi. A bit weird if you ask me. And if I were to cause the death of everyone in Africa at least I would be remembered in history books. Maybe with some added name like "The Butcher of Africa".
no, i said you are as about as humanitarian as stalin, and have political views not far away from hitler at all. it disgusts me. EU has only had major power since late 60s. there were famines then, genius. amnd what about christian missionaries? have they not stirred up trouble?
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Im so sorry I missed the debate. :'(
Vadereclipse could you rewrite your post. I mean no offense, you were probably in a hurry.
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done.
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Are you saying that Christian organizations have made things worse in Africa?
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I also thought that christian organizations were doing goos things in Africa. setting up schools and hospitals. And maybe I like Hitler's political views. He had many great plans which helped Germany from the economic collapse of the 30s.
And only reason why people in the western world today think that killing other people is wrong is thanks to christianity.
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So many accomplishments.
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I also thought that christian organizations were doing goos things in Africa. setting up schools and hospitals. And maybe I like Hitler's political views. He had many great plans which helped Germany from the economic collapse of the 30s.
And only reason why people in the western world today think that killing other people is wrong is thanks to christianity.
no. you are hideously misguided. so you tihnk if someone murders an innocent person,there should be no justice?
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I don't say that. but the fact that killing someone, even if he/she has done some horrible crime, is something we don't like is the result of Christian ethic. In the ancient times, before Christianity, killing someone wasn't so bad thing.
Of course if someone kills someone else for some reason he/she should be sentenced and preferably to death so that tax paying won't have to pay his/hers living.
But then again judgment should be done by God alone and no one else.
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you know you just implied the holocaust was justified in the post before your last.
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No I didn't. I didn't even mention the bloody holocaust.
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you implied it was justified, though. you know what implied means?
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He never said or implied the holocaust was justified. Hitler did a lot more than just kill jews and start wars.
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sorry. i get worked up by far right views.
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. And maybe I like Hitler's political views. He had many great plans which helped Germany from the economic collapse of the 30s.
His "great plans" were simply just set-up of a war
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actually he gambled that he could get what he wants without war, believing that GB and France wouldn't want another big war. but this is out of topic.
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. And maybe I like Hitler's political views. He had many great plans which helped Germany from the economic collapse of the 30s.
His "great plans" were simply just set-up of a war
i'll break it down for you. it started in 1935 when hitler marced troops into the rhineland (demilitarised zone which acted as a corridor between france and germany) thinking britain and france would do nothing. they did nothing.
in 1937, the nazis effectively rigged a vote in austria to join with nazi getmany (in the treaty of versailles of 1918-1919, an anschluss or alliance was forbidden. nothing was done. next, hitler asked for the sudetenland of czechoslovakia, which had over 2 million german people. again, britain's PM neville chamberlain (lousy conservative) let him. later, he took over the whole of czechoslovakia. nothing was done. he even bombed the spanish city of Guernica to test his weapons on the communists involved in civil war. nothing was done. In 1939, he made an alliance with the soviet union and took over half of poland. Britain and france honoured an alliance treaty, and declared war.
ok, sorry meyer. hitler did have great economic ideas, but think about it, they can't be put into use in a way any way different to how africans are being treated on the whole right now. plus, germany wasn't ravaged by diseases with no cure at all (no, killing is not a cure. tens of millions have it. it's inefficient. if faced with death, will they really submit themselves?) anyways, hitler turned germany around, arguably due to manipulation. however, a lot was done in the weimar republic, with stresemann as well. hitler's name has been disgraced as pure eil, IMO, quite rightfully.
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This thread is not about Hitler.
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There should be. We can call him names and post funny pictures.
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I also thought that christian organizations were doing goos things in Africa. setting up schools and hospitals. And maybe I like Hitler's political views. He had many great plans which helped Germany from the economic collapse of the 30s.
And only reason why people in the western world today think that killing other people is wrong is thanks to christianity.
no. you are hideously misguided. so you tihnk if someone murders an innocent person,there should be no justice?
He's somewhat right, Hitler was doing something that should have been done (TO AN EXTENT, I do not support Nazi!) But he went way too far, Shoving personal beliefs into it and such.