Thrawn's Revenge
Ascendancy [SoaSE] => Ascendancy Discussion => Topic started by: tlmiller on December 17, 2012, 09:07:24 PM
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I know not at initial release, but any plans to do the PA in Ascendancy?
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There's about 3 factions we're deciding between for the first added faction, one of which is the Pentastar.
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Sweet. I may end up sucking up my hatred of digital distribution and purchase anyway then.
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Neat, I'll have to get on board this too. It will be interesting to see the PA in Ascendancy if they make the cut.
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Now that I'm playing the game, question. Is the mod going to affect what type of starbases you can build at the varying planets like ICW? IE - at Coruscant, you can ONLY build frigate shipyards, not the cap ship yards? Or is there no way to mod that if you have sufficient...ummmm...whatever spaces (I can't think of what they're called).
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That question is also on my mind.
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Planets are basically coded by type, not by individual planet name. The primary differences between planets are number of slots, so the types of structures you can build won't be limited on a planet by planet basis.
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Oh, I see
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Neat, I'll have to get on board this too. It will be interesting to see the PA in Ascendancy if they make the cut.
Same here. Only because I want a player to load up the mod and actually make a more conscious decision about who he's playing. Imagine (This is just stuff I want to see personally. There's no guarantee anything I'm about to say will actually be in the mod.) loading up and seeing the Three you all know and love (Or two, if you're new to us.). And then, you can select the PA, the Ssi Ruuvi, stuff like that. I get all giddy every time I think about the idea.
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That would be most interesting indeed Kalo
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Same here. Only because I want a player to load up the mod and actually make a more conscious decision about who he's playing. Imagine (This is just stuff I want to see personally. There's no guarantee anything I'm about to say will actually be in the mod.) loading up and seeing the Three you all know and love (Or two, if you're new to us.). And then, you can select the PA, the Ssi Ruuvi, stuff like that. I get all giddy every time I think about the idea.
See, that's the thing that makes me unsure of whether the PA is the best choice for a fourth faction if we're going for more diversity. At least compared to some of the other options. There's a few key differences between them and the IR, and I think it's doable, but at the core they're still pretty similar and would have a lot of overlap, including in their ship roster.
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I agree about the PA, especially when there are more different factions (Ssi Ruuvi [ENTCHMENT] and the Vong in particular). Perhaps the PA and IR could be a Loyalist/Rebel thing, or a Game Altering research development (opening up an entirely different set of techs/ships depending on which path you choose, as well as altering your relations with other factions). The IR could be a more War-Oriented faction, with bigger, stronger ships, the choice of two Titans, but terrible diplomacy. The PA could have more support-oriented ships, only have one type of Titan (perhaps a Vengeance SSD) with a maximum build limit of two at a time, but have better diplomatic abilities.
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If anything, the PA and IR having similar a core would be a good thing; they could be an easy diversification to the mod without having to make a major RAM sacrifice. Further, seeing how the PA was different from the IR in SW proper, the major differences could be in technology/research. Perhaps say, thanks to the Muun influence and other factors, they could have much more economic/diplomatic research than the Imperials. With Sins one of it's strongest points is that ships and structures aren't the only defining parts of a faction; research and technology also play a large role. Plus, thanks to Rebellion itself, Revanchist's idea of locking out a player from one or two tech paths is quite possible thanks to fully functional legacy code from SD's original faction setup idea.
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I've never just been concerned about the ships for it, I just don't think even with that stronger emphasis on economics and such it'd be as interesting as the Ssi-Ruuvi or another group would be.
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As long as you can make Venators and Preators with the IR, I can survive without the PA.
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They won't have either. We don't want to overload on redundant units where they aren't necessary because of memory limitations within the game, and we wanted to reduce the overlap in case we do ever do the PA (which we probably will anyways, eventually). Also the Venator would need a new skin and screw that shit. If we ever add a unit to the Praetor's role for the IR it's probably more likely to be the Allegiance.
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In that case, we definitely need the PA. I much prefer the look of the Praetor to the Allegiance. :D
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It'd be nice to see the Yevetha too, I'm quite fond of the Thrustships.
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I don't think we'll ever do the Yevetha in this. Maybe Thrustships as the indigenous units around N'zoth and such but beyond that there really isn't enough there.
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Very well. it's true they didn't have a lot of variety in the EU but they were interesting. The indigenous ship thing would be a cool idea definitely.
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The way I see it, these are the possibilities for the 4th slot, in order of what I think have the most potential to bring more interesting gameplay:
1. Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium
2. Yuuzhan Vong
3. Pentastar Alignment
4. Hapes Consortium
5. Corporate Sector Authority
6. Duskhan League
7. Imperial Splinter Faction X.
We wouldn't want to do Imperial Splinter Faction X because in general that'd just mean a boring carbon copy of the Remnant proper. Nobody gives a fuck about the Corporate Sector and they're underdeveloped as an independent entity anyways. The Duskhan League and Hapes Consortium simply don't have enough there to be unique or well-developed. The Duskhan stuff would be just enough to be worth using for indigenous forces, and the Hapan stuff would be useful for that as well as a New Republic research branch, although I think the Star Home is the most obvious flagship choices anyone could possibly ask for.
Also, if anyone comes in here and says "omg do mandos or leftover cloan facshun lawl sew kewl" I swear I will lock this topic and drop every hardrive with a copy of the mod (both ICW and Asc) on it off the highest bridge I can find.
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Yes, I'll agree, the Ssi Ruuvi would be the next best choice because their strategy in battle would be completely different, and Entenchment is awesome! While I do not want you to add a Mandalorian faction, I would like to see the planet of Mandalore appear, with maybe some Mandalorian native units.
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Ooh, the Vong would be interesting to crush as the Remnant! I'd love to reenact the battles of Bastion and Borosk!
(Also Borlieas!)
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Also, if anyone comes in here and says "omg do mandos or leftover cloan facshun lawl sew kewl" I swear I will lock this topic and drop every hardrive with a copy of the mod (both ICW and Asc) on it off the highest bridge I can find.
A word of advice; when you get around to releasing the mod, make sure you have a FAQ section where one of the questions is "Can you put in X race/faction/time period?" with an answer of no. It will save you the headache of getting asked that question daily for months on end. I learned this the hard way.
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Yeah, I've already been dealing with it for years with ICW. Over the last few days I've been having a fun email exchange with somebody who's saying I won't implement his suggestions because " You've already set your mind. You only see the work just like some stuck up old game developer" when the suggestion I'm saying we won't do is effectively to just pour in every SSD variant on the grounds that they exist somewhere in canon and to intentionally overpower the Empire because ermagerd ssds er kewl!
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An email exchange? Oh dear, you have my sympathies. I don't think I've ever been caught up in something that bad.
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Yeah, I've already been dealing with it for years with ICW. Over the last few days I've been having a fun email exchange with somebody who's saying I won't implement his suggestions because " You've already set your mind. You only see the work just like some stuck up old game developer" when the suggestion I'm saying we won't do is effectively to just pour in every SSD variant on the grounds that they exist somewhere in canon and to intentionally overpower the Empire because ermagerd ssds er kewl!
How you aren't insane from ridiculous requests of that nature I don't know.
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It's easy to stay sane when dealing with idiots (that's my job description: End User Support), you just need a good weight set. Or large blunt objects and things to hit.
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Or, to make it even more fun, you can mess with the idiot's head, which also makes you feel better. I have to deal with idiots all the time as well. I think we just need to keep these in mind:
1. NO SSD for the EotH!
2. No overload of SSDs for the IR just because they had them at some time.
3. No pointless playable minor factions (i.e. Warlords, Yevetha, Mandos, Zann Consortium).
And we will all have much happier lives.
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but those minor factions are so full of pointless spunk and personality...
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The Zann Consortium should have never been made, in any SW medium.
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So true, I'd have rather played as Xizor and Black Sun
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Yes, but if they did that, Black Sun would be in FoC and be just as overpowered as the ZC, leading us to hate Black Sun instead. At least we can contain our hatred on a character/organization only seen in said game, instead of ruining our respect for a much better faction.
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Perhaps putting in units, from factions that will never appear, as default defense fleets would keep silly requests down.
I'm surprised that the Vong is being considered since it looks like everything would have to be done from scratch (that's a lot of units!). I like the PA and I like the Preator. I'd have a hard time letting go of them! Pardon my illogical bias.
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I agree on the PA. I also agree on the Praetor on the simple grounds that it's one of, if not the best looking capital ships in the game. Which is why I hope they do make it in. I also have a great love for the Venators. Sure, the ship itself isn't that powerful, but nearly 7 TIMES the fighter/bomber capacity in a ship that is still moderately well armed and shielded!!
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I like the PA for Kaine, Jerec and the Warlord aspect.
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Perhaps putting in units, from factions that will never appear, as default defense fleets would keep silly requests down.
Not really. That tends to have the effect of reminding people that they're there and then you get a lot of "well you already have x, so you just need y and z." That isn't our motivation for it, either way. We do intend to do that where it makes sense, such as putting Thrustships on Yevethan worlds and Hapan units on Hapan worlds, although the Hapan units are also most likely being worked into the New Republic as well. We likely won't do more than that though, since these would essentially be flavour units; the player's not using them and they're not doing much to add the the game, so we'd rather use the resources we have (both in game with the 2GB limit, and the development resources) to develop and polish more relevant content.
I'm surprised that the Vong is being considered since it looks like everything would have to be done from scratch (that's a lot of units!). I like the PA and I like the Preator. I'd have a hard time letting go of them! Pardon my illogical bias.
We'd consider what's more interesting ahead of the workload or difficulty for that stuff. I understand the draw for the PA, but the Vong and Ssi-Ruuvi have some pretty unique possibilities. The extent to which worload comes into consideration has more to do with the context we're working on it in. If 1.0 has a decent framework and we get the art assets done for the main 3 factions long before release then we'd be able to focus on the new faction a lot more, and can frontload the art work. If the art stuff for 1.0 matches pretty closely to finishing 1.0 itself as a whole, and we need to focus on fixing stuff in the existing factions for the next version, then the Pentastar would be a better option as the less demanding one. We have a lot of room to play in here.
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In any event it should be awesome to see this mod take shape.
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We'd consider what's more interesting ahead of the workload or difficulty for that stuff. I understand the draw for the PA, but the Vong and Ssi-Ruuvi have some pretty unique possibilities. The extent to which worload comes into consideration has more to do with the context we're working on it in. If 1.0 has a decent framework and we get the art assets done for the main 3 factions long before release then we'd be able to focus on the new faction a lot more, and can frontload the art work. If the art stuff for 1.0 matches pretty closely to finishing 1.0 itself as a whole, and we need to focus on fixing stuff in the existing factions for the next version, then the Pentastar would be a better option as the less demanding one. We have a lot of room to play in here.
Well the models for everything else are great, so it'd be interesting to see what the Vong would become. My only request with the Vong is that I have a hard time knowing what each unit does since the names sound like gook and the ships look like potatoes. I guess that's just me being too lazy.
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That doesn't sound like a request so much as a statement, however we'd do manual and whatnot to explain what everything is beforehand and of course try to work the information ingame as we always have.
Deciding the fourth faction would/could be something we do a poll about as well depending on how the team feels when we get to the point where we need to start making that decision.
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Or requests from number 1 contributor lol?
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That doesn't sound like a request so much as a statement,
Fair point. My request is to please not make all the vong ships look the same if they do become a faction, but then your manuals have been very detailed so this shouldn't be a problem :)
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Or requests from number 1 contributor lol?
Sounds like an extorsion to me...
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I prefer the term aggressive negotiations.
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Sounds like an extorsion to me...
When you're posting and you see that little red line under your text? Yeah, it means it's a typo. The word you're looking for is extortion.
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Would be nice if my computer wouldn't do that with all english words(because it's a spanish one). So I do not pay attention to it, and mistakes are made from time to time.
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Would be nice if my computer wouldn't do that with all english words(because it's a spanish one). So I do not pay attention to it, and mistakes are made from time to time.
I made a bigger mistake by not realizing you're an Argentinian and somewhat young. Apologies.
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It happens. Not that you've insulted me so the apologies aren't necesary, but thanks. Tough I don't know what you mean by "somewhat young".
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I think the general concensus among the team at this point is that we're doing the PA, what with having a unit list and all. Kind of a side effect of finalizing their ICW 2.1 list.
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so is there a chance to get the vong into the game at some point?
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It's not impossible.
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yay vong ! can we just get rid of the specific era all together in ascendancy?
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What do you mean by that? Like general timeframe, or the way the era system works in ICW?
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I think he means the narrow timeframe of Ascendency.
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yay vong ! can we just get rid of the specific era all together in ascendancy?
YEAH, AND THEN WE CAN ADD LIKE THE OLD REPUBLIC AND THE CIS AND TURN INTO THE CLUWN WURS. No, I think we're still staying in the general timeframe of ICW, but I don't think we're going to have ICWs era system.
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YEAH, AND THEN WE CAN ADD LIKE THE OLD REPUBLIC AND THE CIS AND TURN INTO THE CLUWN WURS.
Erhmagerd Clern Wers!
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Don't forget we can add Darth Krayt's Empire and the Galactic Alliance Remnant! :P
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Don't forget we can add Darth Krayt's Empire and the Galactic Alliance Remnant! :/
HIRE THIS MAN. Man? THIS LEGEND.
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It's not impossible.
As long as I can squash them beneath the Imperial boot I'll be pleased beyond words. Though the PA would also be nice
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Perhaps the Hutt Cartel can be considered? I know you tried that in ICW and it didn't work out, but rather you may have looked at the Hutt's the wrong way. They aren't a full-on military force. They work by deception, trikery, and deceipt, which in-game could mean the manipulation of independent warlords, pirate gangs, and private military corporations to achieve their goals. See, the Hutts are not just like the NR, the Empire, or the Chiss, but aren't exactly a carbon copy of the Zann Consortium either.
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With the hutts it would work better with this game instead of eaw with the diplomatic part of this game right?
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Perhaps the Hutt Cartel can be considered? I know you tried that in ICW and it didn't work out, but rather you may have looked at the Hutt's the wrong way. They aren't a full-on military force. They work by deception, trikery, and deceipt, which in-game could mean the manipulation of independent warlords, pirate gangs, and private military corporations to achieve their goals. See, the Hutts are not just like the NR, the Empire, or the Chiss, but aren't exactly a carbon copy of the Zann Consortium either.
The Hutt Cartel would take a lot more time than the Ssi Ruu/Pentastar, since we have a lot more of the resources for those Factions on hand. But I imagine they'd be possible though I'm not sure if it'd be a good idea. The whole "Underdog, win through deception hur hur hur" is a lot harder than you'd think and is hard to convey to most players.
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Perhaps the Hutt Cartel can be considered? I know you tried that in ICW and it didn't work out, but rather you may have looked at the Hutt's the wrong way. They aren't a full-on military force. They work by deception, trikery, and deceipt, which in-game could mean the manipulation of independent warlords, pirate gangs, and private military corporations to achieve their goals. See, the Hutts are not just like the NR, the Empire, or the Chiss, but aren't exactly a carbon copy of the Zann Consortium either.
The reason the Hutts didn't work out in ICW was because we only had so many functional faction slots and needed one for something else, so the least interesting/impactful one got the boot.
As far as Ascendancy, yes a faction less focused on combat and more on other stuff is interesting, but there's onyl so far you can take that in a game like Sins. It's one thing to say less focused on military, it's another to have no military presence to speak of. The Hutts didn't really have any of their own ships, so they'd easily get steamrolled by any faction (or we'd have to invent a whole new roster of ships for them that doesn't actually fit what the Hutt Cartels did).
As for manipulation of private firms or independent groups, that doesn't really translate well ingame. There aren't independent Warlord groups or private firms to manipulate in Sins in that sense, and if there were all it really amounts to would be playing by proxy. You could, say, put a bounty on somebody as your main means of expanding your Empire but all that means is taking away control of the Hutt players ability to influence their own game. You're entirely reliant on outside factors, which can't really exist in the way you're talking about in the game. What groups would you be "manipulating"? Other players? The only way it could really be accomplished is by dressing up a conventional tech tree that allows them to research ships and deals or whatever with different groups, giving them access to an eclectic group of ships. In the end the result there is the same as any other faction except you end up with a less cohesive, less unique roster and a playstyle that's fundamentally the same as the other factions.
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With the hutts it would work better with this game instead of eaw with the diplomatic part of this game right?
Diplomacy in this game is pretty lame at best. It truly is not a game changer, pacts can be interesting as they are research based, but diplomacy is primarily useful for getting a cease fire/peace treaty and possibly ship/planet vision.
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Imperial Diplomacy is my favorite. You submit or die.
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Imperial Diplomacy is my favorite. You submit or die.
That's my preferred diplomacy...
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That's my preferred diplomacy...
Indeed.
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That's my preferred diplomacy...
They will bend the knee or I will destroy them.
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Unsure if this has been asked or answered before, but how will these extra factions operate? Will they just be the neutral factions that control planets before the other factions claim them, will one be made the "Pirate" faction?
They will bend the knee or I will destroy them.
And if we can't destroy them, we'll build something that can.
It's the Imperial way
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This is referring to full factions, not militia.
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Split ICW faction discussion starting with KomissarReb's ppst into its own topic in ICW section:
http://thrawnsrevenge.com/forums/index.php?topic=5163.0
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How about the Restored Empire?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Restored_Empire
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I believe they'd been discussed for inclusion into ICW, but were ultimately rejected. The problem is just that they have so little to call their own. Even in canon, basically all they did was zerg rush a planet with ancient clone wars era ships. I could see a Restored Empire attack making a good random event though. In gameplay they'd probably be pitifully weak and have to rely solely on sheer numbers to overwhelm their opponents, and if we plan to include the Pentastar Alignment, they would basically have all the units the Restored Empire would plus a lot more modern ships to boot.
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I believe they'd been discussed for inclusion into ICW, but were ultimately rejected. The problem is just that they have so little to call their own. Even in canon, basically all they did was zerg rush a planet with ancient clone wars era ships. I could see a Restored Empire attack making a good random event though. In gameplay they'd probably be pitifully weak and have to rely solely on sheer numbers to overwhelm their opponents, and if we plan to include the Pentastar Alignment, they would basically have all the units the Restored Empire would plus a lot more modern ships to boot.
From what I've seen Corey say so far, there are no plans to have any IR factions in Ascendency (PA, Restored, Zsinj, etc) due to the fact that they're simply not unique enough. While in EaW there was the ground aspect so they were able to make the PA feel SIGNIFICANTLY different from the IR due to the difference in ground combat, with only space combat, there simply wouldn't be any massive difference between the IR and the various Imperial splinter factions.
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From what I've seen Corey say so far, there are no plans to have any IR factions in Ascendency (PA, Restored, Zsinj, etc) due to the fact that they're simply not unique enough. While in EaW there was the ground aspect so they were able to make the PA feel SIGNIFICANTLY different from the IR due to the difference in ground combat, with only space combat, there simply wouldn't be any massive difference between the IR and the various Imperial splinter factions.
Which is something of a pity. I'm rather fond of those megolmanical Warlords...
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Which is something of a pity. I'm rather fond of those megolmanical Warlords...
Ascendancy could prove to be a better platform than ICW to channel your inner Warlord though, with the Galaxy Gun and all that.
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Again, the reason the Remnant isn't split into differently coded factions in Ascendancy is because there's no reason to. I've explained this several times, but here it goes again: The Imperial Remnant in Ascendancy represents not only the "main" Imperial Remnant, but also the Pentastar Alignment and other Warlords. They just don't need to be coded as more than one faction.
What do you get out of coding more than one Imperial faction in Empire at War?
1. You get to have more than one instance of the faction on the map.
Sins does this by default. You don't NEED differently coded factions to have multiple instances of something. The Warlords in ICW have effectively the exact same unit list as the Remnant proper does, they're just in a different spot.
2. You get to give them a different name.
Aggain, something Sins does by default. If you're playing as the Imperial Remnant in Ascendancy against 9 other Imperial Remnants, one of you will be called Admiral Daala, another Admiral Isard, another Executor Sedriss, another Warlord Zsinj, another Greater Maldrood, Eriadu Authority, Pentastar Alignment. They're all there.
3. Different units and heroes.
Heroes aren't a thing in Ascendancy (at least not yet, apart from flagship victory mode) so that's irrelevant.
Unit wise, again, the Warlords in ICW are the exact same as the Imperial Remnant unless you want to make the argument that TIE Raptors are important enough to warrant a whole new faction, and that there should be a separate Remnant faction with half the units when you can already get the only important things (the name and location) using another instance of "Imperial Remnant"
Maybe, and it's a tiny maybe, we'd eventually do the Pentastar Alignment as a version of the Empire that removes all the Superweapons and Dark Empire stuff, trades the Lancer out for the IPV, Dreadnaught for Venator, Altor for Lucrehulk, Vindicator for Enforcer, Carrack for Guardian and maybe if we feel generous the World Devastator gets replaced by something obscure, and we change the tech tree to be more economy focus and moderately less oppressive, but then you just end up with this bleh faction sitting in the middle of the Remnant, New Republic and Empire of the Hand. When we were discussing this internally, it sounded infinitely less interesting than the Hapans, Ssi-Ruuvi and Yuuzhan Vong who all have something unique to bring to the table.
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Again, the reason the Remnant isn't split into differently coded factions in Ascendancy is because there's no reason to. I've explained this several times, but here it goes again: The Imperial Remnant in Ascendancy represents not only the "main" Imperial Remnant, but also the Pentastar Alignment and other Warlords. They just don't need to be coded as more than one faction.
Actually, since playing, I do agree that there's no reason.
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Again, the reason the Remnant isn't split into differently coded factions in Ascendancy is because there's no reason to. I've explained this several times, but here it goes again: The Imperial Remnant in Ascendancy represents not only the "main" Imperial Remnant, but also the Pentastar Alignment and other Warlords. They just don't need to be coded as more than one faction.
What do you get out of coding more than one Imperial faction in Empire at War?
1. You get to have more than one instance of the faction on the map.
Sins does this by default. You don't NEED differently coded factions to have multiple instances of something. The Warlords in ICW have effectively the exact same unit list as the Remnant proper does, they're just in a different spot.
2. You get to give them a different name.
Aggain, something Sins does by default. If you're playing as the Imperial Remnant in Ascendancy against 9 other Imperial Remnants, one of you will be called Admiral Daala, another Admiral Isard, another Executor Sedriss, another Warlord Zsinj, another Greater Maldrood, Eriadu Authority, Pentastar Alignment. They're all there.
3. Different units and heroes.
Heroes aren't a thing in Ascendancy (at least not yet, apart from flagship victory mode) so that's irrelevant.
Unit wise, again, the Warlords in ICW are the exact same as the Imperial Remnant unless you want to make the argument that TIE Raptors are important enough to warrant a whole new faction, and that there should be a separate Remnant faction with half the units when you can already get the only important things (the name and location) using another instance of "Imperial Remnant"
Maybe, and it's a tiny maybe, we'd eventually do the Pentastar Alignment as a version of the Empire that removes all the Superweapons and Dark Empire stuff, trades the Lancer out for the IPV, Dreadnaught for Venator, Altor for Lucrehulk, Vindicator for Enforcer, Carrack for Guardian and maybe if we feel generous the World Devastator gets replaced by something obscure, and we change the tech tree to be more economy focus and moderately less oppressive, but then you just end up with this bleh faction sitting in the middle of the Remnant, New Republic and Empire of the Hand. When we were discussing this internally, it sounded infinitely less interesting than the Hapans, Ssi-Ruuvi and Yuuzhan Vong who all have something unique to bring to the table.
I retract my previous statement in light of this enlightenment. My post was one of ignorance now clarified. I look forward to playing this upon my return.
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Well Maybe we could add the Zann Consortium to this game. What do you say? ::)
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I don't think we'll ever do the Yevetha in this. Maybe Thrustships as the indigenous units around N'zoth and such but beyond that there really isn't enough there.
and if they acted like Pirates(launching Victories and trust ships), or, at least, a big planet (on big maps) w/ the execultor-class and other ships...
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and if they acted like Pirates(launching Victories and trust ships), or, at least, a big planet (on big maps) w/ the execultor-class and other ships...
Pirates that wiped out enitre sytems of life in genocides that would make the Nazis uncomfortable at it's ruthlessness. I agree they could have been a lot more fleshed out, but their culture, most of their tech and government style was fleshed out far better than the Ssi Ruuk at least. Shame they got so little EU coverage.