2.2 Balance discussion thread

[Arvenski]

I thought we could use a thread to discuss unit and faction balance in 2.2. Pardon me if there's already a thread for this somewhere.

Some of the things I've noticed:
1.) ISDs feel kinda weak now, especially against Mon Calamari cruisers like the MC80b and MC90. I mean, that makes sense to a point because I imagine the New Republic designed their ships to counter ISDs, but still.
2.) I was expecting Procursators to be a bit tougher. I mean, maybe they are, this is a bit of a first impression of them and I could be wrong, but the one time I've used a couple of them in a large battle, they died quickly to hit-and-run attacks from a few Vindicators. Their shields went down really fast (like, within the first few volleys) but their hulls held out for longer. I wonder if they need a buff to their shields.
3.) Empress platforms are total bullshit; I've made a bug report on them.
4.) Golan Is, formerly of little effectiveness, are now snipers with a couple kilometers more range than ISDs. And to an unshielded ISD, their fire is actually dangerous. I'm not sure if that's because ISDs seem weak or because the Golans' firepower is stronger now, but what the hell?

[Corey]

1.) ISDs feel kinda weak now, especially against Mon Calamari cruisers like the MC80b and MC90. I mean, that makes sense to a point because I imagine the New Republic designed their ships to counter ISDs, but still.

Their health really isn't different from the last version, their firepower got a little bit more compressed than intended with the projectile changes, but they're generally on par with the MC80B (far higher damage, but proportionally lower shields/hull), and somewhat weaker than MC90 (which is definitely intended) and way better than MC80s. The biggest difference is now the space above ISD is a lot more populated than in previous versions (ie Secutor, Allegiance, Bellator, Home One Type).

2.) I was expecting Procursators to be a bit tougher. I mean, maybe they are, this is a bit of a first impression of them and I could be wrong, but the one time I've used a couple of them in a large battle, they died quickly to hit-and-run attacks from a few Vindicators. Their shields went down really fast (like, within the first few volleys) but their hulls held out for longer. I wonder if they need a buff to their shields.

Procursator is likely to get buffed again. We've recently got our spreadsheet for stats back up and running, so there's plenty of stuff we'll be adjusting. They actually come out pretty close to the top of the frigate pile even as they are, but they should likely be a little bit higher.

4.) Golan Is, formerly of little effectiveness, are now snipers with a couple kilometers more range than ISDs. And to an unshielded ISD, their fire is actually dangerous. I'm not sure if that's because ISDs seem weak or because the Golans' firepower is stronger now, but what the hell?

They really aren't that powerful, but because they can't move, defense platforms were given a range buff so that they can actually defend stuff and help in battles without being directly on top of things. Golans used to have some of the shortest ranges in the game, now they don't. Beating an unshielded ISD is pretty reasonable.

3.) Empress platforms are total bullshit; I've made a bug report on them.

They have a collision mesh error- it's being fixed.

[jochen]

Imo Stormtroopers and Army troopers should not have the same price tag, since army troopers are supposed to be much weaker (the units info card confirms it). When both cost 60$ there's no reason for me to build army troopers.
The stormtroopers price needs to be increased significantly.

[Corey]

Army troopers are weaker, but you get more of them in a company. 5 squads instead of four.

[Zardnaar]

Agree with the Procursator  can't really find a use for them and I have tried. I thought they would be a super vic 2 minus the star fighters may as well build a vic 1 or 2 instead (or crimson command).

Tested Eriadu, GM and the Yevetha and the Caamas crisis as the IR. The Allegiance class SD is pants, they are to "wide) and often drive in circles or backwards, cost a lot for a pocket SSD and then fail hard when they get hit by fighters/bombers. Cost more in credits and points than say an Imp II.

 Bellators are OK for a
"cheap" SSD, but all SSD tend to suck (unless you get them for free ie game start).

 The various Imperial factions (excluding the IR) seem to lack something. The super units are a bit meh IMHO, I still resort to Imp II, Vic I/II and strike cruisers especially as Greater Maldrrod as they get Loronar discounts on some planet for 1200 credit strike cruisers. And strike cruisers have the enhance firepower thing and 2 interceptor squadrons.

Secutors are also decent to build a fleet around with carriers and the clopne wars ship. Greater Maldrrod has he most diverse roster IMHO and you can build several fleets (CC based, secutor based, balanced etc).

 Eridadu Authority is the spam Vic I and II factions yevetha are mostly imperials with better fighters (few bombers/carriers) and the thrustships.

 NR got massive buffs for era 1 with the Home One and Dauntless class. No more spam assault frigates+carriers for an X wing spam.

[turtle225]

It is worth noting that if you play on Admiral difficulty that the ai units are 20% stronger overall.

I've spent all of my time in era 1 as NR so far. Can definitely say they feel a lot stronger than they used to.

- Love the changes to the assault frigate. Used to feel pretty useless in prior versions but now they actually pack a punch and the NR finally has a frigate with firepower in the bottom eras.

- Still not sold on MC40 being 3 pop. I would rather have an assault frigate for firepower or three Nebulons for X-Wing spam. I guess the ten missiles makes them more versatile than Assault Frigates and it is your cheapest ship to field B-Wings (other then straight building B-Wings). Idk, maybe it's fine. Maybe not. I don't think I would ever field more than two and even then it would probably be only because I like diversity in spite of practicality.

- Nebulon B-2's are horrible. They are more expensive than B-1's and have a very very tiny amount more firepower. Unlike the B-1 however, they don't give 2 X-Wings making them far worse.

- Corellian Gunships are horrible. I mentioned this in the bug thread, but they have problems actually shooting things. If you fix their shooting problem then they are still inferior to the regular Corvettes but at least would be useable.

- Dauntless might be too bulky. 10900 effective hp is only about 2000 behind an mc80b, 6000 ahead of an Assault Frigate, and 7000 ahead of MC40. Or maybe up the pop cost?

- The rest of NR space lineup in era 1 seems reasonable.

- No more infinite space shipyard spawns is a welcome change, mostly because it was way too easy to abuse as the player. Makes having defensive fleets more important and using Golans as massive stall walls isn't as broken. I like it.

- Empress station is too strong. Been mentioned multiple times already I know. Good that the hitboxes are being looked at but you also might want to either reduce the stations power or instill a global build limit or level 3 station restriction or all of those. Definitely should only be allowed one per planet if not already that way (see my bug report). I haven't gotten a chance to look at the other faction's space stations yet. Looking forward to that.

- Eriadu Authority starting forces could use a buff in era 1. Either that or give them some free Golan III's or something on their only level 3 shipyard planet (Sluis Van? I'm forgetting now). As it is now, it is really easy for a NR player to consolidate the fleets around Endor and just roll over the EA and kill their only level 3 shipyard in the first few days. Or you could nerf the NR starting forces in their Endor sector.

- Random question, does anybody know if when defending in space if you grab the upgrade on your shipyard to increase space station weapon damage, does it affect your Golans/Empress/XQ? Or is it buffing your shipyard's non-existent weapons?

[Arvenski]

Their health really isn't different from the last version, their firepower got a little bit more compressed than intended with the projectile changes, but they're generally on par with the MC80B (far higher damage, but proportionally lower shields/hull), and somewhat weaker than MC90 (which is definitely intended) and way better than MC80s. The biggest difference is now the space above ISD is a lot more populated than in previous versions (ie Secutor, Allegiance, Bellator, Home One Type).

I actually got a chance to test an ISD vs. an MC80 earlier this afternoon. It was mostly a 1v1 fight with almost no fighters involved (one squadron of bombers on each side might've made a run or two, but that's it). The MC80 damaged the ISD's shields a lot faster than the ISD damaged the MC80's shields. Here's the ISD: its shields are not quite two-thirds gone. Tavira's ISD isn't in range to fire on the MC80; this is still 1v1. Here's the MC80: He's still got three quarters of his shield. Now, mind you, I think he just used his shield boost ability, which regenerated a bit of his shields and absorbed a few seconds' worth of damage from the ISD, but it didn't seem to be a drastic boost. Even before the MC80 used its ability, it was still doing considerably more damage to the ISD's shields than it was receiving. Now Tavira's gotten involved and the two ISDs have worked together to kill the MC80. Two against one with no support, the MC80 died fairly quickly. However, the MC80 turned and went after Tavira before he died, and look, he managed to get Tavira's shields two-thirds down, too, even whilst getting double-teamed to death by ISDs. Now, maybe that is as intended. I know the lore says MC80s have stronger shields than ISDs. I thought MC80s kinda sucked against ISDs in 2.1, so maybe you've buffed them to make them more effective. If so, I'm glad you did, that's good for the MC80s, but I was just surprised at how quickly the ISDs took damage.

[Zardnaar]

It is worth noting that if you play on Admiral difficulty that the ai units are 20% stronger overall.

I've spent all of my time in era 1 as NR so far. Can definitely say they feel a lot stronger than they used to.

- Love the changes to the assault frigate. Used to feel pretty useless in prior versions but now they actually pack a punch and the NR finally has a frigate with firepower in the bottom eras.

- Still not sold on MC40 being 3 pop. I would rather have an assault frigate for firepower or three Nebulons for X-Wing spam. I guess the ten missiles makes them more versatile than Assault Frigates and it is your cheapest ship to field B-Wings (other then straight building B-Wings). Idk, maybe it's fine. Maybe not. I don't think I would ever field more than two and even then it would probably be only because I like diversity in spite of practicality.

- Nebulon B-2's are horrible. They are more expensive than B-1's and have a very very tiny amount more firepower. Unlike the B-1 however, they don't give 2 X-Wings making them far worse.

- Corellian Gunships are horrible. I mentioned this in the bug thread, but they have problems actually shooting things. If you fix their shooting problem then they are still inferior to the regular Corvettes but at least would be useable.

- Dauntless might be too bulky. 10900 effective hp is only about 2000 behind an mc80b, 6000 ahead of an Assault Frigate, and 7000 ahead of MC40. Or maybe up the pop cost?

- The rest of NR space lineup in era 1 seems reasonable.

- No more infinite space shipyard spawns is a welcome change, mostly because it was way too easy to abuse as the player. Makes having defensive fleets more important and using Golans as massive stall walls isn't as broken. I like it.

- Empress station is too strong. Been mentioned multiple times already I know. Good that the hitboxes are being looked at but you also might want to either reduce the stations power or instill a global build limit or level 3 station restriction or all of those. Definitely should only be allowed one per planet if not already that way (see my bug report). I haven't gotten a chance to look at the other faction's space stations yet. Looking forward to that.

- Eriadu Authority starting forces could use a buff in era 1. Either that or give them some free Golan III's or something on their only level 3 shipyard planet (Sluis Van? I'm forgetting now). As it is now, it is really easy for a NR player to consolidate the fleets around Endor and just roll over the EA and kill their only level 3 shipyard in the first few days. Or you could nerf the NR starting forces in their Endor sector.

- Random question, does anybody know if when defending in space if you grab the upgrade on your shipyard to increase space station weapon damage, does it affect your Golans/Empress/XQ? Or is it buffing your shipyard's non-existent weapons?

I did not think of going on the offensive as the NR from Endor. I turtled Sullust, Fonder, Endor and pushed out of Mon Cal into the Corporate sector for cash and used mon cal to spam cheap assault frigates and Mon Cals.

 Did not notice the assault frigate buff, I used to use them for the X wing and generally used them vs other frigates or vs Star Destroyers with no shields

 NR overall is a lot more powerful era 1 IMHO. Played EA briefly and they seem the weakest of the factions. Torpedo spheres seem a bit meh.  I pushed an invasion fleet from Mon Cal down to Sullust fighting all the way and lost 0 ships IIRC. The Endor fleet pushed through to Fonder losing various rubbish (Nebulon B's etc) as the fleet composition was what I had vs what I wanted.

 Did anyone else play Rebellion? That is where C 7700s and the Dauntless are from. They were not in earlier EU products like the WEG material or novels.

[RG1701]

I like the Golans and Empress stations as they are. They actually provide a challenge now.

Besides, with appropriate screening, about 8 lancers, about 3 ISDs ,and one Executor I was able to take out three Golan IIIs, an Empress, and the trade trade station at Coruscant. On top of that, I destroyed a fleet of Dauntless and MC80 cruisers plus all the fighters. All on the highest difficulty. I only lost the lancers and a single ISD. My Executor(the Reaper) came out with half health after the invasion.

 The Executor classes are still beasts if you properly protect them and don't just rush in to blasts 3 stations all with a lonely Executor.

The platforms are fine and now function as Golans were intended to in Legends....actual threats and invasion deterrents.

[Arvenski]

Empress stations are still ridiculous. I attacked a planet that had a heavy frigate shipyard, an Empress, and one MC80 defending it. I had Devardus in his Praetor, four ISDs (including one hero), three Victories, and four Tartan cruisers for anti-fighter support. It still took all those big ships a few minutes to take down the Empress, and like one ISD and the Praetor were all that was left at the end. And I took down the shipyard as soon as I could, so it was only able to summon like 3 of those modified Dreadnoughts and a couple CR90s before it got taken down.

[Slyguy3129]

I've noticed that the one weapons that seem to hit the target with my ISDs/2s are the quads and octuplet turrets. Everything else seems to miss, no matter how large the object. Really frustrating to see all those shots just miss. In fact I've noticed that a lot in space battles. 60%+ of your shots miss. Can only speak for the IR equipment, as I have absolutely no desire to play anything else. Glad my fighter/bomber fleet isn't completely garbage anymore. Took out a Praetor with a huge group of Interceptors/Fighters/Bombers from 5 carriers and 7 ISD2s. It was the EA hero who's avatar is being choked. Still heavily damaged 2 of my ISD2s. That has become my go to strategy when assaulting systems with defensive structures.

Dauntless seems pretty stupidly OP. Had one take out two Golems (2/3), or course that might be because 80% of the Golem shots seemed to fly harmlessly past it. Didn't even take it shield down to 2/3s. It definitely needs a shields nerf.

[Magus]

Dauntlesses are quite tough, yeah, especially for being considered frigates and not capital ships.

[Slyguy3129]

I'm guessing since I posted about the weapons missing I hurt my install's feelings. Now the golems seem to work. Atleast the two I have over Kashyyyk. With nothing but a Frigate factory and Golem 2s, I fended off an MC80b, 2 Assault Frigates, 2 Corillian Frigates, and 2 of whatever those weird things are the Rebels love to build. Glad I didn't auto resolve that battle. One less Capital ship for the scum. They have tons of money, but very few places to build anything.

[Arvenski]

I think capital ship guns like to fire at fighter squadrons. If you order them to target a specific ship, they seem more likely to focus their fire on it than if just let them shoot at whatever they like.

[Slyguy3129]

In the GC Empire's End, every Rebel Scum planet has an Empress Station. This has got to be a joke or oversight. Not to mention the Empress itself is a joke. I mean I know the Rebels are weak, but for real. Not trying to come across as raging.

Yea I have noticed Capital Ships fire at Fighters, I usually order them to fire on a unit then order it to stop, as it seems not doing so cause the ship to want to turn away from the target where it can't fire at it. But this is an Empire at War issue and not a mod issue.

[Slyguy3129]

On a hilarious note TIE Defenders are just amazing. X-Wings? HA! No problemo!

[AdmiralCypher]

Surely not every planet has an empress? Please say it's not true...those bastards have been absolutely tearing up my capital ships. Isn't there a build cap like the one for the heavy imperial station?

[Slyguy3129]

Every starting Rebel planet has one in Empire's End. It is why I dropped that GC. I probe droided all of them. After three attempts at taking one planet, I threw in the towel and went back to Art of War.