Author Topic: Pentastar Alignment OP? (Read 9587 times)

Zardnaar · « **on:** March 27, 2018, 09:42:22 PM »

I am kind of new here but I have played several games on the Art of War grand campaign and out of all the factions I think the Pentastar Alignment is OP.

Now you may be wondeinrg how and I bet you are thinking its because they start the game with 2 SSD. They are a contributing factor. Tactically I am probably not that good at this game, I use auto resolve a lot and I usually rely on my economy etc to carry the day. Basically I do not care if I lose 10 star destroyers to win a battle if I can build 15 more. Currently playing on Admiral difficulty. I know the PA has some disadvantage but for the most part they do not matter that much.

1. Weak vs airpower. Translation on the ground aerial units are annoying. This is true but aerial units in the hands of a human are good under the AI they are usually a distraction.

2. Can't build fighter units (E-wings, defenders, B wings, furions) etc. This is true but you can win without them.

3. No new units. Once again it mostly doesn't matter. Mostly because once era 3+ rolls around you have already won the game and you more or less start with era 3 units anyway.

Now with games like Empire At War and virtually every other RTS, grand strategy or turn based game a good or great start basically wins you the game. These games are all about rapid expansion (REX), and this has been true since at least the 90's with Civ I and II and things like Command and Conquer. Similar deal with games like Stellaris and Sins of a Solar Empire.

One thing I do like about Thrawns Revenge is how good some basic early units are. By this I mean thing like Venators, Furions, TIE defenders, B wings, and Victory I and IIs. And some of the frigates that can be built in light construction yards. So no matter what you are far from helpless as long as you can afford to build units. And on some worlds you can turtle your ass off.

Anyway the PA is so front loaded IMHO compared to the other factions but especially the New Republic. All the imperial factions have some great ships that never get old and that includes the Empire of the Hand. The early advnaatge the PA has I think are better than most of the other factions.

1. They have a compact empire. So does the Empire of the hand but the PA has 3 planets that can build Praetor II's on for example the EoTH have 1. The NR and IR have numerous planets but they are scattered all over the map and are not connected.

2. They have several rich worlds you can spam tax buildings on. Bastion and Muunilist are the obvious ones, the one down side the PA has is a lack of rich worlds relative to the other factions so you more or less have to play tall and develop what you do have. This however is compensated by.....

3. Gregor Raquoran. This dude gives you a 25% discount on all your ships and buildings. This means my initial money is going to be spent on mines that only cost 375 credits and you have several worlds that are worth 85 credits+. Consider this with the 25% discount.

Vindicators costs 1875
PraetorII cost 11500
Victorty II costs 2850
Victory I costs 2550

4. You can build IPV vessels at 25% off via Gregor. 4 of these in a fleet and even the New Republics fighters die fast. 675 credits a pop, sign me up.

5. You start the game being able to build Venators. Who cares if you can't build actual fighters, build these instead. 2-8 of these in a fleet is nice. And you can build them 25% less.

6. You can build Praetors II. This is basically a mini super star destroyer early on and you start with a couple and can afford top build another one day 1, just send Gregor to one of your ship yards. Short of coming up against Isard or a huge bomber spam these things are good early. 2 of these+ 8 venators early on and 2-4 IPV and you're golden.

7. You start with 2 SSD. I use these to turtle while a Praetor fleet pushes into the easy to conquer/defend corporate sector. They can be used to throw back the Empire of the Hand at Borrsk (sp?) which is where I park Jerec or you can push into the EotH since every planet they own it seems makes 85 credits except for a couple.

8. Clone wars units. By this I mean hailfire droids, and the troop carrier. Invasions of planets are usually over before bombers are ready let alone bombardment.

9. Lucrehulk. Another reason to go and capture Bonadan. These ships basically suck except they are good at being carriers and they hold a lot of replacement fighters. They cost 4000 a pop though (3 with Gregor and I uslly astion 1 at the worlds I am turtling on. One of these, 2 venators, an SSD or 2 praetors and some Victories enable very efficient turtle strategy and if Isard/Wedge/Palpatine/Viscouunts/SSD turn up in an SSD well you have clouds and clouds of fighters to deal with them.

Put simply the disadvnatages don't matter that much and the late game can mostly be avoided either by winning earlier or even with a modest empire you can defeat anything in the game with swarms and swarms of fighters that you can acquire for 25% off. All your economic building also 25% off and you have great ships. Swarms of hailfires are almost the only land unit you need and it is easy enough to spam. I do not bother building ISD's II and only tend to use the SSD early on.

Nice and simple fleet compositions.

Fleet 1 The Basic Balanced Fleet

Praetor + 2-4 Victory2, 2-4 IPVs, round out with Venators.

Fleet 2 VIndicator Swarm

3-4 IPVs, Interdictor + lots and lots of vindicators. This gives you clouds of fighters and a cheap poor mans lightcruiser you can spam for 1875 each. YOu can kill a SSD with a fleet like this (thanks Isard) and vs any reaosnably balanced fleet you tend to rip them apart usually for the loss of minimal Vindicators.

Fleet Crimson Command Redux
A long time ago in the 90's I ought the hardcover Darksaber. Basically Daala got a massiv fleet of Victory Star Destroyers. Well you can recreate that. BAsically you go around with a dozen Victories or so and wreck everything.

2 Venators, 1 Interdictor, large pile of Victory Is and IIs.

Fleet 4 The Swarm
1 Lucrehulk, everything else Venators. Mostly for defending.

And that is about it. Mostly with all of the factions I am leaning towards fleets of smaller ships over large capital ships. Furion+ Kariek, Defender+Strike Cruisers, B wings+ sacean (spelling?) frigates although I will use capitals fleets as well of course. Especially fighting the New Republic and the ion cannons which gets annoying using a SSD. If I can wipe a large opposing fleet out for 10k credits or so (losing 4-6 Victory class or less) I like that and even losing 15-20 Vindcators is not a bad trade vs a Viscount /SSD+ support ships.

Pentastar Enforcer · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2018, 10:36:05 PM »

I'm assuming you're playing 2.15 right? Steam Workshop version? Because I can tell you the Pentastar Alignment changes quite a bit with the new update. It keeps Gregor Raquan or whatever his name is, but it makes it a bit harder for the PA to start off so nicely.

kucsidave · « **Reply #2 on:** March 28, 2018, 05:36:43 AM »

As Beznerds says, PA will get a hard nerf early game.
First of all, they will start with no SSD heroes whatsoever. You will have to wait for week 20 when Kaine shows up with the Reaper(Executor), and Jerec had been separated fron the vengeance, and Captain Sysco took it, but only as a recruitable hero for 60K credits.
Gregor and most of the PA's new hero roster will only come in at week 20 as well, so the Early game 25% off is negated as well.
Also, PA won't have access to Lucrehulks anymore, but They will get access to the Bellator class which is actually a mini SSD which is more of a carrier than a battleship

So most of it is going to be nagated in the upcoming 2.2 which will release shortly.

Zardnaar · « **Reply #3 on:** March 28, 2018, 06:09:23 AM »

Hmmn that is some hard nerfs do they get some later era ships or a starting fleet that is a bit bigger of normal ships?

60k for a SSD is tough the Sovereign classes and other SSDs are a lot cheaper.

kucsidave · « **Reply #4 on:** March 28, 2018, 08:14:10 AM »

Quote from: Zardnaar on March 28, 2018, 06:09:23 AM

Hmmn that is some hard nerfs do they get some later era ships or a starting fleet that is a bit bigger of normal ships?

60k for a SSD is tough the Sovereign classes and other SSDs are a lot cheaper.

Don't forget that we are still talking about a hero unit
Oh, and all Executor class SSDs will cost 60K. Bellators will be cheaper though.
And they will be even more limited for the player, as there were complaints that they are too common and OP. So their shields will be nerfed, all SSDs will get engine hardpoints, so they won't escape with 1 laser cannon only and they will be more vulnerable to fighters and bombers in general.
They will also cost more pop as they did before, but pop cap will be increased from 40 to 60 as well, so it will balance it out. Most ships will cost more pop as they did before in general.

Zardnaar · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2018, 02:50:58 PM »

Going to try a light ships only game as the PA. I tested it as the Empire and stomped everything with TIE defender+carracks.

My rules.

I can use starting capital ships defensively. I can't launch an attack with capital ships.
No more capital ships can be built.
I can't build anything that requires a larger shipyard so so VSD/Venators.

Zardnaar · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2018, 07:58:42 AM »

And won a game on admiral only using lt ship yards. Jerrec and Co had a holiday above Bastion. Vindicator+ IPV spam+ a few lucrehulks.

You can kill an ISD for the loss of 10 vindicators (1800 each), if that ISD has support and/or space ports that might be 50+.

Arvenski · « **Reply #7 on:** March 30, 2018, 04:30:24 PM »

That's a... unique way of going about it. I mean, we all have our own ways of playing, but personally I think a far better approach would be getting a fleet with a several capital ships plus support and playing your battles (instead of autoresolving). I suspect it would be a lot more efficient in the long run because ideally you wouldn't lose a big ship very often, and the ships you'd be building the most would be the corvettes and small frigates that tend to get overwhelmed if they end up in the middle of a big fight. I mean, it sounds like you're experimenting to see what you can do, which is totally fine, but to me, sacrificing 10 ships to kill one ISD is silly.

Zardnaar · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2018, 03:47:35 AM »

Quote from: Arvenski on March 30, 2018, 04:30:24 PM

That's a... unique way of going about it. I mean, we all have our own ways of playing, but personally I think a far better approach would be getting a fleet with a several capital ships plus support and playing your battles (instead of autoresolving). I suspect it would be a lot more efficient in the long run because ideally you wouldn't lose a big ship very often, and the ships you'd be building the most would be the corvettes and small frigates that tend to get overwhelmed if they end up in the middle of a big fight. I mean, it sounds like you're experimenting to see what you can do, which is totally fine, but to me, sacrificing 10 ships to kill one ISD is silly.

Its more of a test to see if I can beat the game using basic units, not trying to be efficient.

the_trots · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2018, 09:50:33 AM »

PA was OP in 2.15. They completely wiped out every other faction in every single 2.15 game I played. Unlimited OP preators and free SSD's, it was grim.

So far 2.2 appears to have addressed that.

Zardnaar · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2018, 09:59:00 AM »

2.2 s only a demo though? PA tends to suck in my games (2.15)

the_trots · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2018, 10:15:15 AM »

There is a 2.2 demo and a 2.2 beta.

Zardnaar · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2018, 04:27:20 PM »

Quote from: the_trots on March 31, 2018, 10:15:15 AM

There is a 2.2 demo and a 2.2 beta.

Is it in the workshop?

Ordo · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2018, 06:16:24 PM »

Only the demo, beta is here on forums

Zardnaar · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2018, 09:46:16 PM »

Quote from: Ordo on March 31, 2018, 06:16:24 PM

Only the demo, beta is here on forums

Explains why I could not find it.

Halyn · « **Reply #15 on:** April 02, 2018, 12:19:26 PM »

And we all await the full release eagerly...

Mitthrawnuruodo · « **Reply #16 on:** April 15, 2018, 10:19:38 PM »

I'm currently trying them out on 2.2's Stars Align and IMO, they're still quite powerful. Even with the new limits on economy building, you can turtle down and save up until you get to week 20, then go on a shopping spree for their awesome fleet and the game is more or less yours. Other eras may prove more difficult, but from what I can tell, Venator fighter spam still works a charm (alongside the new defence structures that deploy squadrons too) and the Dark Jedi auto-resolve bug is still present.

Zardnaar · « **Reply #17 on:** April 16, 2018, 03:05:15 AM »

Quote from: Mitthrawnuruodo on April 15, 2018, 10:19:38 PM

I'm currently trying them out on 2.2's Stars Align and IMO, they're still quite powerful. Even with the new limits on economy building, you can turtle down and save up until you get to week 20, then go on a shopping spree for their awesome fleet and the game is more or less yours. Other eras may prove more difficult, but from what I can tell, Vindicator fighter spam still works a charm (alongside the new defence structures that deploy squadrons too) and the Dark Jedi auto-resolve bug is still present.

Have not tried them out butone of the other factions can now build Praetors II (EA IIRC).

Did you mean Venator spam?

Mitthrawnuruodo · « **Reply #18 on:** April 16, 2018, 06:24:15 AM »

Yes, I did. It was past 3 AM in the UK when I posted that, so the names of everything were slipping me.

Zardnaar · « **Reply #19 on:** April 16, 2018, 07:59:15 AM »

Quote from: Mitthrawnuruodo on April 16, 2018, 06:24:15 AM

Yes, I did. It was past 3 AM in the UK when I posted that, so the names of everything were slipping me.

Starfighter spam in general works. 60 E Wings or a large pile of Sacheen/carriers/assault frigates etc.

You can bury the AI in cheap spam via the special planets and constructions.

NR
Mon Calamari, build 2 corporations 30%discounts Assault Cruisers and Mon Cals.
Sullust 30% discount Dauntless+Carriers

New Program 10k 30% discount on Majestics, Sacheeen, Nebula etc.

New Republic Senate bonus credits on a planet (defualts to Bothrui)

I think I stuck the senate in the corporate sector+ 3 mines+ Talon Karrde and was making 3200 credits on 1 planet. I turtled up at Fondor probably would have been better securing the CSA and pushing into the EA out of Sullust.

I'm kind of glad when the AI throws a pile of Torpedo spheres and ISDs at you, it means they are not using scary ships like large piles of VSD/VSDII, Carracks and Strike Cruisers. 3 or 4 ISDs/Torpedo spheres, smoke me a kipper skipper I'll be back for breakfast a horde of smaller ships= casualties. Those special AI fleets of a dozen VSD+ 30 carracks and srike cruisers hurt as your starfighters can't kill them fast enough before they are all over you.

Strategy Testing atm on hard.

Turtle up at Yaga Minor in space, build HVC.

Sens your carriers and a decent amount of munificent frigaes+ raiders+ all your ground units to Eol Sha, Kauron, Telos and take the Corporate Sector. Defend theborder planets o the ground (Anx minor etc) and spam some storm troopers there day 1,.

Its the basic strategy ofr the NR, and Greater Maldrood just go and seize the CSA ASAP. Zsinj turtles with the Iron Fist at Dathomir.