The severely disappointing story in Disney/EA's Battlefront II (spoilers)

[Pali]

In fact ever since Rogue One alot of my friends think the rebellion is basically like a space version of ISIS, the Lord's Ressitance, or any other insane rogue terrorist group.

If those friends are American, you may want to point out next time the subject comes up that the Revolutionary War was a rebellion, and that George Washington and most of the Founding Fathers were fighting against their lawful government - and that many were motivated as much by greed and not wanting to pay taxes to Britain after it had just fought a war that largely enriched the colonies as they were any freedom-based ideology.  Do they also think the American Revolutionary War was just a bunch of evil terrorists running amok?

Seriously, though, your friends have no idea what ISIS is if they think the Rebellion compares unfavorably to it (likewise the American Revolution, despite the above).  ISIS is extremist religious fanaticism attempting to build an empire on that fanaticism, or at least usher in the end times through it, and it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities as judged by reality-based standards.  The same is not true of the Rebels by a long shot.

[Illidan Stormrage]

Seriously, though, your friends have no idea what ISIS is if they think the Rebellion compares unfavorably to it (likewise the American Revolution, despite the above).  ISIS is extremist religious fanaticism attempting to build an empire on that fanaticism, or at least usher in the end times through it, and it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities as judged by reality-based standards.  The same is not true of the Rebels by a long shot.

2 of them are Americans, 3 were Brits, and a couple were Germans. Using ISIS was a bit of a poor choice of wording from one of the Americans but we argue which faction the rebellion acts most like. The three real life groups we came up with were: The Lord's Resistance, the IRA, and the last one was some Anarchist Communist group. Saw Gerrra's and the rebellion's war tactics match up the most with the IRA. They are a freedom fighting movement that wanted to liberate Northern Ireland and tired to do soo through extreme tactics. Of everyone in our group chat the Germans were most supportive of Imperial doctrine follow by the Brits, then Me and the Americans were a bit divided.

I will admit that as a American i am not proud of what some people did during that war and some of the things America has done, but wars and revolts always have violence and their will always be good people on both sides of a conflict no matter what. Good and bad are merely just labels that ignore the fact that War is black and white.

[Pali]

I'm guessing you meant to say at the end that war is NOT black and white, rather than that it is.

That said, some grays are darker than others - modern Western armies commit a fraction of the atrocities that medieval armies did as a matter of course and hold their soldiers to greater standards of accountability (sacking and raping entire cities is now a war crime rather than how you reward your troops).  The Western front in WWII certainly saw war crimes and brutality, but nothing close to the scale at which such occurred on the Soviet front.  Neither the British nor Revolutionary troops during the American Revolution indulged in large-scale slaughter of civilians - that scene in The Patriot where a British colonel burns a town in their church is utter nonsense.

The Rebellion proper (I don't know the details of Saw's group, but it is distinct from the Rebel Alliance by the time of Rogue One because of its tactics) is never shown attacking a civilian target, at least not in the movies - it consistently limits itself to military and govt. targets.  It doesn't engage in anything remotely close to LRA barbarism, and while I'd tend to agree that the IRA isn't a bad comparison, it remains a bit off - parts of the IRA did target civilians at times, and the IRA was essentially a colonial rebellion against external rule rather than an internal rebellion seeking to overthrow a govt. (the IRA had no illusions that it would topple the British govt.).  The Rebels definitely did not argue in favor of anarchic communism, so I'm curious how that comparison was made.

I always appreciate it when people argue in favor of the Empire, as I like knowing who the authoritarians around me are.

[Illidan Stormrage]

The Rebellion proper (I don't know the details of Saw's group, but it is distinct from the Rebel Alliance by the time of Rogue One because of its tactics) is never shown attacking a civilian target, at least not in the movies - it consistently limits itself to military and govt. targets.  It doesn't engage in anything remotely close to LRA barbarism, and while I'd tend to agree that the IRA isn't a bad comparison, it remains a bit off - parts of the IRA did target civilians at times, and the IRA was essentially a colonial rebellion against external rule rather than an internal rebellion seeking to overthrow a govt. (the IRA had no illusions that it would topple the British govt.).  The Rebels definitely did not argue in favor of anarchic communism, so I'm curious how that comparison was made.

The reason Jyn Erso was arrseted was becuase she forge IDs to get Saw and his buddies into a Imperial festival full of Civilians where Saw and his group fired Fletch launchers into crowds. it total into the thousands.

one other example is in bloodline where Leia is being interviewed by NR officals about any war crimes she commited and the actions of the partisans. Leia defends these actions by saying that the deaths were need ed to ensure the Empire would fall.


To put it simply niether faction gives a fuck about civilian casualties. Members of each faction like Thrawn, and Luke seem to care but not the general faction as a whole.

[rednax]

When did thrawn care about civilian casualties?, it was mentioned in rebels that when he cleared a sector of rebel presence the civilian casualties were heeps higher than normal.

[Illidan Stormrage]

When did thrawn care about civilian casualties?, it was mentioned in rebels that when he cleared a sector of rebel presence the civilian casualties were heeps higher than normal.

SPOILER WARRING FOR THRAWN BOOK!


When Thrawn had his cmapagin at Baton he first offer the rebel leader to surrender and join the Chiss Asendancy, and his people can go home unharmed. The Rebel Leader says No and so Thrawn had to launch a battle with the help of Colonerl Yularen. The rebels decided that the besy course of action was to put thier base on top of a massive civilian center/factory area. The rebels basically force people to move weapons around and go through annoying military checkpoints. Govenor Pryc was present(she was their looking for he parents) on the ground and she trigged a explosion that killed alot of the civilians(she also killed a ISB agent to cover her tracks). Kallus in that secene was just being a dick, because he clearled never read what really happened. Thrawn was annoyed at the unnessary death, but he accepted that he could not have done something about it.


other instances include when the dreamers from Inferno Squadron under the guides of the NR/ rebel alliance blew up a school and killed honorable Imperials.

[Pali]

To put it simply niether faction gives a fuck about civilian casualties. Members of each faction like Thrawn, and Luke seem to care but not the general faction as a whole.

This, I think, is an unfair interpretation - just because both sides have caused civilian deaths doesn't mean that neither cares, nor does it mean that they are uncaring to anything close to the same degree.  I can't speak to how it fares in the new books, but in Legends the NR military consistently and actively takes risks to avoid causing collateral damage, which is contrasted with an Empire that literally build and used a planet killer.  The Empire specifically designed and built terror weapons that had civilian populations as their intended targets - does the NR have anything comparable?

[Pali]

This, I think, is an unfair interpretation - just because both sides have caused civilian deaths doesn't mean that neither cares, nor does it mean that they are uncaring to anything close to the same degree.  I can't speak to how it fares in the new books, but in Legends the NR military consistently and actively takes risks to avoid causing collateral damage, which is contrasted with an Empire that literally builds and uses planet killers.  The Empire specifically designed and built terror weapons that had civilian populations as their intended targets - does the NR have anything comparable?

[Illidan Stormrage]

This, I think, is an unfair interpretation - just because both sides have caused civilian deaths doesn't mean that neither cares, nor does it mean that they are uncaring to anything close to the same degree.  I can't speak to how it fares in the new books, but in Legends the NR military consistently and actively takes risks to avoid causing collateral damage, which is contrasted with an Empire that literally build and used a planet killer.  The Empire specifically designed and built terror weapons that had civilian populations as their intended targets - does the NR have anything comparable?

canon rebellion man is way more evil and corrupt then legends rebellion. Canon rebellion tried to steal the superlaser in order to attack coursant. They also stole medical supplies from Imperial medical facilities which was being use to treat soldiers, the attempted to activate the Malachor superweapon, capture a imperial's family and threaten to force them to drink poisonous water, launched attacks on schools, and other forms of terrorism. Also Cassian Andor was a fulcrum agent and so was Kallus and Ashoka. Once of the things fulcrum Agents did was "Silence countacts if needed" Basically what Cassian did to that poor guy at the start of Rogue One. Leia was also okay with civilian Casualties as evident in bloodline.

Alderran also funded the Partisans and the dreamers in their criminal and terrorist activities.

[Pali]

Medical supplies for soldiers are something I view as a legit target for a resistance group - the targets being harmed are military ones.  Likewise silencing contacts, including the way Cassian did at the beginning of R1, because a single security leak can doom an entire resistance group.  Resistance groups have to play by different rules than a govt. supported professional military because they cannot win a straight-up fight.  Many of their actions may well be horrible in some way or another, but the question is whether a group happily embraces such tactics or does so out of regrettable necessity.  The argument can also be made that in a state of total war, civilians are legitimate targets to a certain extent - the Allies didn't bomb Axis cities for fun, they did it to diminish industrial capacity and civilian support for the war effort.  A bombing raid blowing up a factory with the workers inside is a significantly different act than capturing that factory before lining up the workers and shooting them because you simply don't care about their lives.

You are also referring to the rebellion as a singular entity, when my understanding is that it didn't begin to truly unify until the Rebels time period, and even then it was only a loose alliance involving a number of factions - one that kicked out Saw's group because it was too extreme (or was it that Saw's group split because the rest weren't extreme enough?).  Am I incorrect here?  Were the plans to destroy Coruscant or attack schools sanctioned by the majority, or were they the actions of specific factions?

[Lord Xizer]

If those friends are American, you may want to point out next time the subject comes up that the Revolutionary War was a rebellion, and that George Washington and most of the Founding Fathers were fighting against their lawful government - and that many were motivated as much by greed and not wanting to pay taxes to Britain after it had just fought a war that largely enriched the colonies as they were any freedom-based ideology.  Do they also think the American Revolutionary War was just a bunch of evil terrorists running amok?

Seriously, though, your friends have no idea what ISIS is if they think the Rebellion compares unfavorably to it (likewise the American Revolution, despite the above).  ISIS is extremist religious fanaticism attempting to build an empire on that fanaticism, or at least usher in the end times through it, and it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities as judged by reality-based standards.  The same is not true of the Rebels by a long shot.

If anything ISIS is more comparable to the First Order, pitiless, incapable of compromise with any ideology that is not its own with complete disregard for the lives of its soldiers.

[Pali]

If anything ISIS is more comparable to the First Order, pitiless, incapable of compromise with any ideology that is not its own with complete disregard for the lives of its soldiers.

Also the forced conscription of children.

[Lord Xizer]

Also the forced conscription of children.

Exactly

[Illidan Stormrage]

You are also referring to the rebellion as a singular entity, when my understanding is that it didn't begin to truly unify until the Rebels time period, and even then it was only a loose alliance involving a number of factions - one that kicked out Saw's group because it was too extreme (or was it that Saw's group split because the rest weren't extreme enough?).  Am I incorrect here?  Were the plans to destroy Coruscant or attack schools sanctioned by the majority, or were they the actions of specific factions?

I mean the taskforce sent to retreive the superlaser had Han Solo, and some top tier commanders. The attacks on schools were organized by elments of rebel high command(IE Alderram, taris, and a few others). Alderran which was backing the partisans, the dreamers, the free Ryloth movement, and Death Watch. These groups just mention were the most extreme of the rebel groups with most killing civilians, Imperial officer's families, and they would steal from people just to fund their war. Most of these groups(excpetion is the dreamers) also make up the biggest of the rebel factions interms of manpower, resources, and intelligence. These groups also hired mercinaries to do jobs for them for further manpower.
I will go over each group now.

Partisans: Founded by Saw Gerra based on his lessons under Anakin Skywalker in gerrila warfare, the partisans were not kicked out persay but they acted more independent which is why their intel was better than the entire alliances. They are known for both their brutally, and how more terrifed people were of them then the Empire. Following the events fo Rogue One the partisans split into two subfactions: The dreamers who were wiped out by Inferno Squadron, and some Partisans who stayed under Two Tubes. Two Tubes partisns returned to the ruin city of Jedah and built a base on the opposite side of Jedah. They later were welcomed fully back into the Alliance by Leia, Luke and Han Solo for a reason i dont fully understand other than the need for more men.


Free Ryloth Movement: This group was formed by Cham Syndulla from the remnants of the Twlek Resistance. They were considered extremists because they would often assault and murder Imperial officers in bars, houses, and public places. They also would kill people associated with said officers as a message. They are also known for not being very trusting to other rebel groups, but they still were represented in the rebel alliance. The attacks by this organization were often targeted at medical faliticties(both civilian and non civilian) and also would steal imperial WMDs.

Death Watch: Ahhh Death Watch. They started out as terrorist fighting the Mandolairan Goverment under duchess Satine and they contiued fighting past that into the days of the Empie. They are known for both their bruatality and without mercy attitudes towards their enemies. The Saxons one of the clans turned on House Vizla/Death Watch because they realize two things(1. They were being used and 2. they were dying to put a traitor and criminal on the throne.) The Saxons joined the Empire along with other Mandolrians(most were from the pacfist goverment). Death Watch is repsonisble for alot of the cvilia war between various Mandolrians clans and they have wiped out quiet a few of them already. They also tageted the capital with bombings and assainations of Mandolrians who were suspected of working for the Empire.

[Pali]

I mean the taskforce sent to retreive the superlaser had Han Solo, and some top tier commanders. The attacks on schools were organized by elments of rebel high command(IE Alderram, taris, and a few others). Alderran which was backing the partisans, the dreamers, the free Ryloth movement, and Death Watch. These groups just mention were the most extreme of the rebel groups with most killing civilians, Imperial officer's families, and they would steal from people just to fund their war. Most of these groups(excpetion is the dreamers) also make up the biggest of the rebel factions interms of manpower, resources, and intelligence. These groups also hired mercinaries to do jobs for them for further manpower.

I'd have to read these stories to levy judgments, because context always matters.  Though I tend to be accepting of stealing from people to fund a resistance, or hiring mercs when needed.

[Meyer]

A bombing raid blowing up a factory with the workers inside is a significantly different act than capturing that factory before lining up the workers and shooting them because you simply don't care about their lives.

Just out of curiosity, how are those things different?

[Lord Xizer]

Just out of curiosity, how are those things different?

I suppose it comes down to intent. If someone does a military strike against a factory it's with the intention of putting the factory out of commission, worker deaths are not the desired outcome, they are a byproduct. Collateral as it were. In contrast with the executions, the goal is to instill terror by deliberately targeting and publicly killing the workers themselves, so the factory becomes the secondary objective there, it's about an object lesson with the deaths being the primary objective.

[Pentastar Enforcer]

I'm just dropping my 2 cents here: I haven't liked much of anything produced in the new canon, starting with and including star wars the clone wars (I know that it's bad to say that). While I actually enjoyed TFA quite a bit, seeing it 9 times in theaters alone, and Rogue One was astounding, the rest of the produced material has been less than stellar in my humble opinion, if not horrible, especially when looking at the overall story of Star Wars past episode 6 and the science, lore, etc. While TFA really was a carbon copy of ANH, I still found it generally enjoyable as ANH was good. I found TLJ to be pretty bad. I like calling it a really bad good movie because of what it does, from Admiral Holdo to flying Leia, Canto Bight, Bad jokes, etc. But I hate TLJ because of what it does to the overall story of the new canon, as well as it pretty much flipping the bird at the established stuff that we uber nerds love, and the stupid stuff with the star wars physics being changed and warped to fit the crappy story. I could complain about that but we all know what happened there.

I have the same opinion, if not a worse one of the TV shows, The Clone Wars to me was very meh, I really don't like the individualistic clones being controlled by mind control chips and the general numbers that don't make sense , i.e 2m clones being able to successfully fight 5qui battle droids, but whatever. I never liked Ashoka very much, or Grievous being a whimp, the peaceful mandalorians and the huge focus on them, the father, son, daughter, etc. Rebels takes my distaste of this stuff up like 10 notches, and it just gets so cringey, and it controls so much of the canon now, Thrawn, Maul, the Mandalorian fanboyism, Giant Wolves, etc. It's all being thrown in the trash by the writing team.

The new books are really bad too at explaining what happened after Endor until TFA, none of it really makes sense, and tends to be pretty unclear, has a lack of focus, and is just pretty bad in general. This extends to the story of Iden Versio in BF2, another horrible story (though I like the game itself). I could go on but I'd just be ranting more.

What I'm trying to get at is that the new story is really not as strong as the old canon was in most places, rogue one being my biggest exception. The new canon definitely has it's pro's but overall really sucks, and has trashed a lot of stuff that was good in the original canon, like Thrawn . I'm definitely seeing a downward trend in the quality of star wars stories, usually because of the direction of Kathleen Kennedy, the new authors, and my personal favorite, Dave Filoni. Rian Johnson's stuff wasn't too great imo either. I still enjoy a lot of the stuff, seeing A-Wings and TIE Fighters, Kylo Ren, Death Troopers, etc. but the overall arc of the new canon is just badly disorganized and weak. While it does pretty much only affect us at the moment, the distaste in star wars will grow, there aren't a ton of us nerd types here, definitely not like us, but there are a lot of strong star wars nerds that are unhappy with the current trend. Hopefully the quality drop can change, maybe removal of Kathleen Kennedy?? I don't know, I just want to see this stuff fixed.

Rant Over

[Illidan Stormrage]

I suppose it comes down to intent. If someone does a military strike against a factory it's with the intention of putting the factory out of commission, worker deaths are not the desired outcome, they are a byproduct. Collateral as it were. In contrast with the executions, the goal is to instill terror by deliberately targeting and publicly killing the workers themselves, so the factory becomes the secondary objective there, it's about an object lesson with the deaths being the primary objective.

According to Hask they were evacuating the planet. They started with personnel then civilians which begs the question. Where did these people evacuated go? Vardos somehow still was loyal to the Empire but i am not entirely sure.

One example was when the rebellion began bombing Coursant and killing civilians. They also took out vengeance family members of Imperials in order to force Imperials to surrender.

What bothers me the most is that why Iden and Del were pardon for all the warcrimes they commited being th e elite memebers of the Empire, while low level officers were excuted? What is this bullshit?

[Squasher04]

If the campaign was longer it would help to sooth Iden's transition that was first started in her book