If Kaine survived Shadow Hand...

[Bucman55]

Ever since I learned about Grand Moff Ardus Kaine's death during/before Operation Shadow Hand, I've wondered what the post-Shadow Hand timeline would look like if Kaine did not die at Palanhi. Any thoughts?

[DarthRevansRevenge]

another leader for Pellaeon's remnant? i can see him being like a second leader in the remnant, but the timeluine probably wouldn't change much

[Lord Xizer]

another leader for Pellaeon's remnant? i can see him being like a second leader in the remnant, but the timeluine probably wouldn't change much

There would have been no final Imperial push. Kaine would never have backed that. Also with him as the last Grand Moff and holder of most forces after Pellaeon I expect the True Empire as Pellaeon called it would have retained it's roughly 25 Sectors with Kaine as head of state and Pellaeon as Supreme Commander.

[DarthRevansRevenge]

ok, i can dig that. eventually, Pellaeon remains over-arching commander, maybe also with Night Hammer, while Ardus Kaine remains Admin/legislative leader, and the empire maybe even better off after yuuzhan vong war, which might even be shorter

[kucsidave]

I think that if Kaine would have survived, there would have been more than 25 sectors.
I believe that with kaine alive, from one side the PA would have been more powerful than in the current timeline, since the loss of kaine was surely a huge blow to the PA. With Kaine still around, many things would change, including a throughout investigation on all officers in light of Grant's treachery.
I also think that way, instead of just retreating into PA territory, Palleon would have actually go to the neighboring sectors, secure them and replace the empire in a place directly bordering the Pentastar territory. I think the PA wouldn't just simply become part of the remnant either, since Kaine feared losing his status too muc to let it happen, but would instead have a very very close cooperation with the remnant, even providing them with the means to men and equip the two SSDs they got from Harrsk's secret base.
I firmly believe that the remnant would place themselves as a frontier force for the PA, basically pulling up a defensive ring around their territory, and be more defensive, seeing how much it worked out for Kaine. Though I have to admit, there would be a very very close cooperation between the Remnant and the PA, the marginally becoming one in everything but name and head of states. And soon, when the remnant and the NR signs the infamous Pellaeon–Gavrisom treaty, it would consolidate the remnants' new holdings. And with the added manpower and resources(with additional forces remaining from not making a final push, and Orinda campaign never happening due to it being more secuse), they could have a much larger powerbase later.

[DarthRevansRevenge]

that is also an option

[Lord Xizer]

Trouble is this scenario puts the combined IR and PA square in the middle of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion corridor rather than right beside it

[kucsidave]

that's not a problem, that's a change in timeline.

[DarthRevansRevenge]

but now, in stead of 2 small SSDs and 7ish sectors(6 plus 2 half sectors), they now have 4-5 SSDs(the 2 previously plus a combination of Reaper, Guardian, and possibly Night Hammer, depending on choices), many more warships,and 20+ extra sectors with many more resources and more population, and possibly even the Empire of the Hand and the Thrawn clone at this point. the empire would have been much better off

[kucsidave]

Do you think Pallaeon and Kaine would have been good pals?
I think they would have agreed on a few things.

[Bucman55]

Do you think Pallaeon and Kaine would have been good pals?
I think they would have agreed on a few things.

They probably would have agreed that Human High Culture would have to go.

[DarthRevansRevenge]

yeah, since the empire would be smaller, and it's really not good for the economy. also, both were devoted to preserving the order, rather than win and destroy the republic

[Lord Xizer]

Do you think Pallaeon and Kaine would have been good pals?
I think they would have agreed on a few things.

I think they would have worked well together, according to EGtW Pellaeon respected Kaine and was appalled by the effect his death had on the Empire as a whole.

[kucsidave]

just a funny idea, but after 2.2 is out, I might make a GC around this base idea

[Bucman55]

just a funny idea, but after 2.2 is out, I might make a GC around this base idea

That would be fun to play. Playable factions could include the Pentastar Alignment, Crimson Empire, Greater Maldrood, Eriadu Authority, and the New Republic. Do you think Pellaeon would still go to Maldrood or do you think he would go with Kaine?

[kucsidave]

I was thinking more along the lines of IR, PA, EotH and NR.
I firmly believe that even if Kaine survived, Daala would kill everyone at Tsoss Beacon, siezing their fleets.
I also think that Kaine would go to an extreme isolationism after Palpatine's death, and shut the empire as a whole off, leaving Pallaeon no choice but to go with Terradoc to the Maldrood. After some time though, (after reunification to not change the timeline too much) he would start to open up, but before that, Pallaeon would go to relocate the empire to border his territories for negotiations.
Pallaeon is no fool. He would know even then that Kaine is the best hope the empire has, so I firmly believe he would lead the negotiations with Kaine himelf, and that would be what opens up Kaine, to see someone with the same dedication that he has.

[DarthRevansRevenge]

but, still, GC where after the events of shadow hand kaine survives, and either PA can annex the IR or vise-versa, and gain all the heroes and a large number of ships? that would be awesome

[kucsidave]

but, still, GC where after the events of shadow hand kaine survives, and either PA can annex the IR or vise-versa, and gain all the heroes and a large number of ships? that would be awesome

I wasn't really thinking of annexing, but rather make a "new faction" PA or something for it, a PAf (f for friendly) or something which is a 100%copy of the original PA, and add that faction to the PA ships stats, so not much extra space needed, maybe 1MB, and even with that I might have said too much.
The point would be that when giving factions their properties, I can set that to be a permanent friendly to remnant(that's why I have to create a new PA, since that can't be changed from GC to GC, that's a permanent stat for each faction) and vice versa(just a line change for remnant, nothing mayor).
That way we have an allied Pentastar and Remnant force which won't go into combat with each-other, will be still unique and have their different hero rooster, and yet has separate economies, therefore wouldn't be unfair for NR players, just extremely challenging since if they can cripple the economy of one, there isn't the other's one still behind it. I mean so the PA can't really support the remnant with anything other than forces. The remnant won't be able to build new capitals because PA territory has capital shipyards and such.

[DarthRevansRevenge]

so, as in friendly, they won't be able to attack each other, is that it?

[kucsidave]

so, as in friendly, they won't be able to attack each other, is that it?

Yeah. Also, since remnant does not have the Pentastar forces this time around, I want them to start as a bare-bone faction
Meaning that their economy would be the lowest and they would pretty much lack production capabilities, while I want both the PA and the NR to have not just a very stable economy, but also considerable production structures behind them. Meaning that unlike it was in 2.1, they will start fully developed planets.
One thing though, I want Coruscant to stay out of this one.
I want this to be an offensive FROM the NR. So basically a total table turn where instead of a Final Imperial Push, we would see a Final Republic Push.
I want the NR player to clearly be on the offensive.
I shouldn't say, but just to be safe, 2v1 is not a great fun. So I want the NR player to try to take out the IR as soon as possible and then have to regroup to take the PA out too.
On the other hand, I want the IR player to desperately try to defend his territory. Maybe even a few story events where if you loose this planet you loose your ability to build this or that, and maybe even permanently loose heroes, thogh not as badly as it sounds. I'll explain in just a second.
For PA though I want something completely original, and try to pull out from the situation as much as I can. I want the PA to be defensive and help the remnant so that NR does not get too powerful, BUT(and that's a Nicki Minaj sized butt) not too vehemently, as I want the PA to receive heroes from the Remnant as they loose territory. Basically as faith in the remnant fades, people defects to the PA.
This would create an interesting nor with, nor without relationship between the IR and the PA.