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Author Topic: Torpedo Sphere  (Read 16117 times)

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February 15, 2016, 02:43:31 PM

Offline GEARREX_11

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Torpedo Sphere
« on: February 15, 2016, 02:43:31 PM »
I just wanted to suggest the addition of the Torpedo Sphere to this mod. I think It would be a perfect unit to provide the overwhelming firepower that Delvardus favored. Since the Warlords are not really going to get any really large ships it makes sense that they could get something small that still packs a very large punch. Admittadly this ship was designed to only attack planets, but it has shown that it is so capable in the ship vs ship role that it could even face down an SSD as Admiral Pitta demonstrated. This ship was 1900m and carried 500 proton torpedo launchers in addition to 10 heavy turbolaser batteries. It really had limited hanger space however and while it could possibly carry some fighters it more often carried ground assault shuttles. It was very well shielded and all the firepower was concentrated at the front making the rear and sides a blindspot. I think that since the warlords are looking for anything they can find using the potent Torpedo Sphere would not be out of the question. This is just my two cents. if it happens I will play the crap out of this ship but if not then oh well. I just think that giving the warlords some diverse units will make them seem like they really were, men who were desperate to build a better army than their rivals. As such this ship would allow them to challenge even the larger factions with their SSDs without putting to much of a strain on their wallets since it is only slightly bigger than a ISD 2.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 09:53:28 PM by GEARREX_11 »

February 15, 2016, 02:59:10 PMReply #1

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 02:59:10 PM »
If you mean the torpedo sphere, then I can only repeat what TlMiller said to you last time. It was not designed for ship to ship combat. It was designed for planetary siege. As an addon it were never widely used and it would require a lot of work to actually bring it in game. I can't speak in the dev. team's name, but IMO it would not worth the time and effort to bring it into the game. It would also add nothing new gameplay-wise. And if it would work somehow like the deathstar did in base-game... well... it was a broken thing to begin with. The main problem with DS as a whole is there is basicly no way to counter it. Only the we kill everything with a few X-wings squad could do anything about it, meaning you had to have them in the battlefield where the deathstar was and you had to destroy all the defending ships in orbit. This was impossible if the DS had quite a defending fleet. Also ZC could not counter it at all.. Once I played with my friend and he played as Zann. I enjoyed that I blew up his whole fleet with the DS while he tried to catch my only fighter squad. If he found it, I brought in a few ships and toyed with him while the DS recharged...
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

February 15, 2016, 08:43:47 PMReply #2

Offline GEARREX_11

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 08:43:47 PM »
This is an official suggestion for this particular ship I only briefly touched on it in my previous post so forgive the repitition

February 15, 2016, 09:36:29 PMReply #3

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 09:36:29 PM »
. Also ZC could not counter it at all.. Once I played with my friend and he played as Zann. I enjoyed that I blew up his whole fleet with the DS while he tried to catch my only fighter squad. If he found it, I brought in a few ships and toyed with him while the DS recharged...
Actually ZC does have a counter. IG88 hack DS. It kills DS, planet its over and all ships in orbit as well as remobes IG88 permanently.
I experienced this when I had tge DS all my heroes and my entire fleet over Byss.
Then IG88 happened and everything died.
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February 16, 2016, 07:10:56 AMReply #4

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2016, 07:10:56 AM »
This is an official suggestion for this particular ship I only briefly touched on it in my previous post so forgive the repitition
No worries. It is cool that you want to suggest things too. It was more than worth a shot. I started just like this back when 2.0 was not even a thing. :)
Once a few failed attempt from myself and others I started to look for patterns in the rejections and disagreements and I started learning what can work and what not. I took more and more time to consider each ship I wanted to suggest until I found myself doing hours of research for every single ship before even attempting to bring it's name up. I mostly used wookiepedia for a long time, and it is still my primary knowledge source. A few advice for you for the future about ships.

Ships with clear statistics and/or known design are preffered. Mostly if both exist. if both of these missing... god help you.
Would it make sense to give it to any playable groups/ was it widely used troughout the galaxy?
Would it bring anything new gameplay wise for any faction if not all. Like PA's Preators, which means if you have borders with them you have to prepare something against those beasts...
If you are good at 3D modeling/animation and offer to do it yourself, it might just give you a huge advantage though I don't think it would guarantee success.
When you suggest the ship make sure you also tell every detail about why it would be a good idea, which role it would fit, and which gaps would it fill. Also if there is something entirely new it would bring in, don't forget to mention that, but I should also tell that if it would take a horrible amount of work to bring a new mechanic into the game just to do it gives a huge dissadvantage for the ship.


Hope this will help you out in the future. I can't wait to see what ships you come up with.
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« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 07:14:48 AM by kucsidave »
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And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

February 16, 2016, 04:03:52 PMReply #5

Offline Corey

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2016, 04:03:52 PM »
It's something we've thought about in the past, but really, like some other stuff (World Devastators being the prime example) it potentially wouldn't work that well in EaW. All the Proton Torpedoes were fire-linked and could only fire at planets effectively, but on the other hand that doesn't really match with the information that one was being used to defend Corellia or how effectively Pitta was apparently able to use it against Aggressor.

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As an addon it were never widely used

Eh, this is kind of questionable. There's a few pretty high-profile engagements where it was used, and although it was rare in the time of the actual Empire, it seems like one of the few ships that became a lot more popular in the Remnant era (especially given that the Empire had apparently at least started building hundreds more).

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And if it would work somehow like the deathstar did in base-game... well... it was a broken thing to begin with. The main problem with DS as a whole is there is basicly no way to counter it.

The Torpedo Sphere is much, much smaller so if it did exist in EaW as a combat ship, there's no reason it wouldn't be able to be destroyed or function in a conventional way. It wasn't meant to destroy planets entirely either, just be a dedicated siege platform, so that part isn't a factor.



Dave's assessment of what we tend to go for is mostly correct, but a few points there to clarify as well, since the Warlords especially provide some unique scenarios.

Quote
Ships with clear statistics and/or known design are preffered. Mostly if both exist. if both of these missing... god help you.
Basically, the idea is if we're going to add something, there needs to be something to add. If there's no statistics and no picture, it's not even a case of "this ship looks cool" prompting people to want to add it. It's usually the clearest indicator of "let's just add literally everything we can find a link to on Wookiepedia." Either that, or somebody thinks the name of the ship is super cool, and that's no reason to work on designing and carving out a role for a new ship. Which leads us to...

Quote
Would it make sense to give it to any playable groups/ was it widely used troughout the galaxy?
Would it bring anything new gameplay wise for any faction if not all. Like PA's Preators, which means if you have borders with them you have to prepare something against those beasts...
These are sort of part of the same criterion for us, and they both tie into the preceding one as well. Basically, we don't want to just haphazardly throw a bunch of random units into the mod that all do the same thing; leaving aside redundancy and over-crowded build bars, if we ever want to change or fix something, it becomes much harder to keep track of everything. This is already an issue in the mod, where any eventual possibility of death clones, for example, is more or less already out of the question solely as a function of sheer volume, and when we want to remake the worse models there's now far more to be done.

It's all a matter of priority. Basically, if something's not bringing any new gameplay options to the table, why would we do it over something that does, or redoing something that looks worse in the mod? There are plenty of people who would respond to "do you want unit x, unit y, or to redo unit z?" with "simple "yes," because to a lot of players it's just "LET'S DO ALL THE THINGS!" For us though, the amount we can do is proportional to the amount of people we have, so it's a question of what we can actually do with our resources, which are then allocated according to what adds something new, or what's detracting from the game already (ie, poorer model quality in existing ships or incomplete features).

That is the context in which we care how widespread something is in the SW Galaxy. As long as somethign had at least some regular use, meaning it wasn't a unqiue ship like the Eclipse or it's not part of its lore that it's limited in use like the TIE Phantom, we're not against having rarer ships. However, if we only need one ship to fill one role, and we can't do multiple ones, the VSDII is always going to have priority over the Procursator, for example. The Warlords kind of throw this off, however. We're now able to split the Imperial roster across 5 factions, so redundant units can more easily be spread out, and something that's just a visual as opposed to role-based difference may be enough for something to be considered for, say, Maldrood when it wouldn't be in contention at all if we just had the Remnant.

Quote
If you are good at 3D modeling/animation and offer to do it yourself, it might just give you a huge advantage though I don't think it would guarantee success.

This is actually a complete non-factor unless you're actually joining the team. If someone already know how to do 3D Modeling and stuff, and you wanted to help make that content, presumably that person would be joining the tea anyway. Otherwise, if it's someone who doesn't know how to model already and they're just doing that one ship because they want it in the mod, not to be mean, but I doubt we'd take it anyways. We've spent years working on replacing our own old models from when we were worse, and that process will be ongoing for however long we work on our stuff; we'd be extremely unlikely to take someone else's first time work, since it would be very unlikely to measure up to the standards we're trying to set.
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February 16, 2016, 04:33:10 PMReply #6

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 04:33:10 PM »
Well, Corey. at the last point you are wrong in one thing.
Actually I wanted to create an AT-TE model with animations for the team just because someone said(not sure who) the team actually considered it, and I really liked the unit. I searched out dozends of pictures from the said CW beauty from all angles, went to wookiepedia for more concrete data, went into pixel mesurements, for three weeks my desk was full of papers with equalations and geometry, put my everything into it, and it was actually quite good. I was in animating it's movements what was a pain when my dear sister downloaded something(i think a game) and got a boot virus I couldn't fix and had to reinstall the whole computer... All data lost... I don't want to go trough all that again, so sorry about not giving you a model, but I tried.
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

February 16, 2016, 05:26:34 PMReply #7

Offline Corey

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 05:26:34 PM »
Again, not trying to be rude, but even assuming you had an accurate-to-the-pixel recreation of an AT-TE from Episode III, I say that because there's more that needs to be taken into consideration, and the order in which things are done is fairly important. The method in which you've put together the model matters, and without some experience in that area, problems may not become obvious until it's too late to fix them without some serious reworking. Polygon counts, for example, are very important when you're working with games, especially old ones like EaW, so there's a determination you have to make about what needs to be done in the mesh itself, what needs to be put in the texture, and what is best left off entirely so it looks "clean" ingame. There could also be errors in how the mesh is put together, not in respect to the design, but with how the faces and edges connect, causing issues when rendering and potentially making UV mapping and texturing properly extremely difficult. You also tend to be far better off UVing and texturing before getting to the animation, because that's when you find a lot of potential issues with the model, and once you've started skinning the model (in the animation sense, connecting mesh parts to the bones), any mesh edits you end up having to make to accommodate the UV or texture become a lot harder to make without having to redo everything. I say this not to discourage anyone or to denigrate your own efforts, but to clarify why it can be problematic.
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February 16, 2016, 05:33:39 PMReply #8

Offline tlmiller

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2016, 05:33:39 PM »
Although, with the wardlords being active, would be nice IMO to have that AT-TE for ground combat for a little change of pace from the AT-AT as the only Imperial heavy mechanized infantry.
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February 16, 2016, 05:42:43 PMReply #9

Offline Corey

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2016, 05:42:43 PM »
Yes, yes it would.
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February 17, 2016, 08:12:37 PMReply #10

Offline GEARREX_11

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2016, 08:12:37 PM »
Thanks for the Reply Corey. BTW I love this mod I appreciate the work you and the team have put into this thing :). I had stopped playing EAW 2 years ago and when I happened upon this mod you made me love this game again. As for the Torpedo Sphere idk it was not really an uncommon ship and had some high profile engagements namely battle over Correlia. I just thought since the warlords would mostly be unable to use larger ships due to resource restrictions and the Torpedo Sphere really started to appear around the ICW era it would not be a bad unit to have since it provides a lot of firepower, but is more realistic for the warlords than an SSD. It on several occasions proved it could outgun an SSD if used right. The Executor class Dreadnaught Aggressor and the Vengeance class Dreadnaught Javelin both met their match against a Torpedo Sphere. It is just one of my favorite ships in Star Wars so I had to at least suggest it :). But thanks again for all your hard work on this mod and I look forward to see what ships you add for the warlords.

February 21, 2016, 09:45:42 PMReply #11

Offline GEARREX_11

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Re: Torpedo Shere
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2016, 09:45:42 PM »
I went digging a bit to find out about the targeting systems of the Torpedo Sphere in relation to capital ships and what I found was very interesting. Admiral Pitta's Sphere was actually able to target ships the size of a Carrack cruiser. As the Fleet of his rival admiral was made up of Strike cruisers, Carracks, ISDs, and of course the Aggressor. The Torpedo Sphere was stated to have devastated most of the enemy fleet. This would mean it was capable of hitting Carrack and Strike cruisers which are quite speedy and could have avoided a simple barrage fired with no guidance, but it was able to precisely dismember most of the attacking fleet meaning it could actually get a target lock on small ships. I believe this resolves the issue of the Torpedo Sphere being able to target capital ships.

February 29, 2016, 06:53:58 AMReply #12

Offline tlmiller

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Re: Torpedo Sphere
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 06:53:58 AM »
Well yeah, it was capable of targeting ships, but it was never DESIGNED for it.  It was designed for busting planetary shields.
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February 29, 2016, 02:22:26 PMReply #13

Offline GEARREX_11

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Re: Torpedo Sphere
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 02:22:26 PM »
Well the Quasar fire class was never DESIGNED as a Starfighter carrier, but it could be a Starfighter carrier with some modification. All I'm saying is its not out of the realm of possibility for this ship to be included as a playable ship as far as targeting capabilities are concerned.

February 29, 2016, 03:01:36 PMReply #14

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Torpedo Sphere
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 03:01:36 PM »
but the difference between the two is that the Quasar WAS used as a crarrier by both the rebellion and later the NR too. And not just one or two of them. They were used for a long period of time. They were used at least since the Battle of Yavin as evident from Star Wars Rebellion.(NOT Rebels, rebellion)
Can you find any evidence that a TS had ever been modified directly for the purpouse of ship-to-ship combat? If yes, sorry, but I don't know about any.
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February 29, 2016, 04:27:53 PMReply #15

Offline tlmiller

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Re: Torpedo Sphere
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2016, 04:27:53 PM »
There would be no reason to modify them.  It's just that for the price, they weren't very efficient when used for space combat.  The computer systems on the TS were some of the most advanced at teh time, able to pinpoint even a MINICULE weekness in a planetary shield, then target it with pinpoint accuracy and overwhelm that weekness with a barrage of torpedoes, and destroy ground targets upon the weekness momentarily collapsing.  Because of the cost of the systems, the torpedoes, and the personel, they simply were too expensive to use (and therefore risk losing) for basic space combat.  I have no doubt there were others used for it, because if you have one, and you're being attacked...obviously you're going to use it.  But I rather doubt they were ever deployed wih the intention to use them in space combat.
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February 29, 2016, 09:11:55 PMReply #16

Offline GEARREX_11

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Re: Torpedo Sphere
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2016, 09:11:55 PM »
Well Admiral Pitta would be the exception he chose to use one as his flagship. But I get what you are saying one can dream right? :) I would just love to watch ships melt away as my 500 proton torpedo tubes annihilated their ship :D.

March 01, 2016, 09:56:03 AMReply #17

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Torpedo Sphere
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2016, 09:56:03 AM »
Well Admiral Pitta would be the exception he chose to use one as his flagship. But I get what you are saying one can dream right? :) I would just love to watch ships melt away as my 500 proton torpedo tubes annihilated their ship :D.

Pitta used one with great effect at Rgr battle of Traulus but perished with it in battle when Grunger rammed it, same thing happened between a TS and Vengeance class in the Imperial Mutiny. Those are the only two I know of though out of all SW
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March 01, 2016, 03:17:03 PMReply #18

Offline GEARREX_11

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Re: Torpedo Sphere
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2016, 03:17:03 PM »
Ya the Vengeance class SSD Javelin was destroyed when it rammed a TS over Chasin. Gotta love how the commanders in the supposedly superior ships just end up ramming it out of rage that they cant beat it :D.

March 01, 2016, 03:25:20 PMReply #19

Offline Corey

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Re: Torpedo Sphere
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2016, 03:25:20 PM »
But I rather doubt they were ever deployed wih the intention to use them in space combat.

They were used in defense forces though. It's pretty inconsistent.
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