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Author Topic: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)  (Read 18484 times)

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December 21, 2015, 06:00:12 PMReply #20

Offline Pali

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2015, 06:00:12 PM »
I felt the point of the saber choreography, which I also liked, was partly to show that none of them were particularly skilled with one yet.  Ren's use throughout the movie was unrefined, often using far more force on blows than would be needed, yet despite losing I thought he still came across as more skilled than Rey - he'd already taken a blaster bolt to the gut from Chewie and a hit to his swordarm's shoulder from Finn, after having just murdered his father.  Not exactly a situation that has someone fighting their best. ;)

Freezing the blaster bolt was definitely new and a welcome early surprise.  I do agree with the criticism over Han's death, it didn't hit me very hard either.  I think it was that you could see it coming too far in advance - the instant Han saw Ren on the bridge I knew Han was about to die.  Chewie's death in Prime wasn't something you really expected until a paragraph or so before it happened - we'd spent so long with Star Wars books never killing main characters, especially not movie ones, regardless of the danger, and with Chewie you kept expecting that some miracle would happen.  But the bridge scene with Ren?  Even if he ends up good in the end, we all knew that wouldn't happen in the first movie.  The moment that scene started, you knew how it would end, and the dialogue on Ren's side of their conversation was too purposefully ambiguous ("I know what I have to do") to make you suspect anything else would.

December 21, 2015, 06:17:32 PMReply #21

Offline Halcyon

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2015, 06:17:32 PM »
Rey knowing the Force in 2 seconds was BEYOND rediculous! Not even Yoda could do that untrained. Rey and Finn are two of the most BORING characters ever! The only reason I didn't fall asleep when they were on screen, was because Han and Chewie were so friggin awesome! They better use those other 7 or 8 Knights of Ren, especially the guy with the cool looking Halberd. Kylo was ok, reminded Me of his grand daddy on screen. It was just okay... Hopefully with Abrams for the next two they'll be better. Idk though....

If I did the movie I would have had Lopito Ny'Ongo be Finn, Daisy Ridley be Kylo Ren, John Boyega be Phasma with a badass fight scene, and Adam Driver be Rey. The weapon would not be another Death Star, it be a huge factory ship that churns Star Destroyers out in like a months time. I know factory ships been used but better than Death Star III? Anyway the world wouldn't be Jakku ( aka Tatooine Jr ) it'd be Onderon! Tying in Canon with EU, and Rey would be a Beast Rider tribesman. Anyway Finn and Poe crash in wilds on Onderon, etc. etc. Kylo would be Hans daughter instead of son etc. anyway Starkiller Base has plans/supplies factory ship Han an Chewie and team blow up base... Republic Fleet makes it to reinforce the Resistance large Mon Cal/Star Destroyer battle happens Ackbar concentrates on destroying factory ship. Ok Kylo fight scene similar except Kylo wins taking Rey's left leg and wounding shoulder. Rey backs up/crawls away from Ren holding her sabre above Rey's head. Rey backs up into tree and as Ren goes to kill Rey, earth breaks open in front of them distracting Ren allowing Chewie to shoot in front of Ren knocking her back into the trees. Then Chewie rescues wounded Finn and wounded Rey. Admiral Ackbar then using the fleet blows up factory ship and First Order retreats. Similar to actual movie but with enough differences to be more interesting....

Also Maz Kanatas cantina was in an ancient Jedi temple... The Resistance and Republic are different... And Snoke is a lame name...

December 21, 2015, 11:11:54 PMReply #22

Offline turtle225

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2015, 11:11:54 PM »
Ok, I'll admit that I was maybe a bit too hard on Poe not getting development. I am eager to see what they do with him in the next two movies. However, I remain annoyed that he so much better than the other pilots. Basically the scene where he is flying at the goggles lady's palace battle where he downs like 7 tie fighters in 10 seconds and shoots some storm troopers. It was just a bit too much and broke my immersion. Maybe I'm just needlessly critical.

I'll also admit that I was a bit too hard on Rey, when you brought up the Luke comparison. Even so, she is even more over the top than he is and her talents seem unending.

As for the world setup. I'm not really asking for major political games or intrigue. IV sets up the state of the galaxy quite simply in the opening text crawl. All we needed was a few lines of dialogue somewhere explaining who is in control or something, and whether or not the First Order actually has any backing or are just some terrorist rogue imperial remnants.

I agree with Han's death feeling cheap. It was just way too obvious. The second he splits off from Chewie you know he's a goner in that scene. I know they were going for the Kylo Ren emotion and development but I think I would have rather had Han go out in a heroic sacrifice instead. Maybe that's too against his character?

I know I'm focusing a lot on the negative and while that is my overall opinion, there were some things that I did enjoy and I feel like the next two movies have enough setup to possibly do a lot better. Until they freeze finn in carbonite and then create a starkiller base precise enough to target capital ships.

December 22, 2015, 01:31:28 AMReply #23

Offline Pali

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2015, 01:31:28 AM »
Hey, I'll be the first to say it could be better.  I've simply noted a big difference between the film's reception here and its reception IRL, where I've yet to talk to a single person who has seen it and didn't at least enjoy it, even if they felt it flawed, and I somewhat suspect that among the hardcore Star Wars nerds, unless the film was a true masterpiece, a lot of us were setting ourselves up for disappointment.  Yeah, the plot is paper-thin and coincidence-heavy, but then so was A New Hope's.  Yeah, it's pretty much the same story, but Star Wars was never anything close to original - everything from the title crawl to the award ceremony was copied from or very strongly inspired by some other movie.  Sure, the bad guys are underdeveloped, but then the Empire was simply Nazis in space - there wasn't any depth to them originally either.  Even Vader had no depth - he had presence, sure, but where in A New Hope does he have any sort of character development or arc?  All of that came from the next two movies.

I'm just saying, a lot of this film's flaws, the original trilogy committed first - and we forgive them.  If you go into a movie looking for reasons to dislike it, you'll find them, no matter the film.  Return of the Jedi is my favorite of the movies, but every single time the battle on the forest moon begins, I facepalm at the "legion of best troops" that shows absolutely no discipline or order in its reaction to an attack, doesn't even handcuff prisoners, and completely forgets about protecting its objective to individually or in small squads chase mostly-harmless furballs into the forest where they can be ambushed.  It is monumentally stupid and not at all how disciplined troops behave - but it doesn't stop me from enjoying myself.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 01:38:59 AM by Pali »

December 22, 2015, 04:57:32 AMReply #24

Offline Mat8876

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2015, 04:57:32 AM »
I think they have done it right I mean if you take into account that the EU is non-canon now the only way star wars fans where going to enjoy it was by showing them something they have already seen.

If they changed the entire story they could do it better but it wouldn't of been liked by to many fans i'm sure.

That said i'm certain that if the EU was still canon and they followed one of the stories from their more fans would have more positive reviews.
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December 22, 2015, 12:28:00 PMReply #25

Offline Slornie

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2015, 12:28:00 PM »
Rey knowing the Force in 2 seconds was BEYOND rediculous! Not even Yoda could do that untrained.
Says who? We know absolutely nothing about Yoda's past.  Maybe some Force sensitives just have an innate understanding once they are "awakened".


In terms of the galactic scene the way I see it at the moment, without having come across any canon explanation thus far, is that the New Republic (now just referred to as the Republic?) is a major player in the galaxy possibly sharing power through an uneasy peace with a diminished Empire.  The Resistance (including General Leia) has taken a similar role to Luke's Jedi splinter faction from the Legacy of the Force novels, separate from government and continuing to take the fight to extreme elements within the Empire (First Order).

EDIT: So it seems I wasn't that far off. The canon New Republic page on Wookieepedia has quite a nice synopsis of how the state of affairs evolved after Endor.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 12:53:42 PM by Slornie »
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December 22, 2015, 08:54:30 PMReply #26

Offline Halcyon

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2015, 08:54:30 PM »
Fine yes we don't know Yodas past... Which may be rectified with rumors of a Young Yoda movie possibly in the works... But it was still incredibly lame to accomplish something like that in the Force, when she basically didn't even know what the Force was 5 seconds before!

Look I admit I had incredibly high hopes for the movie, and with J. J. Abrams it's always hit or miss... ( more miss than hit imo ), so yeah I was pretty devastated with his movie. I'm hoping without him the next two will be better. Idk though the new heroes are still super boring... Guess I'll just have to look forward to Obi-Luke lol. Or maybe Rogue One will be better idk. It's just depressing to have disappointing Star Wars films... I liked Episode 3 more... Sure the originals weren't perfect ( though Empire Strikes Back is pretty damn close ) Idk I just wanted more than a slightly different Episode IV reboot idk...

December 23, 2015, 01:35:48 AMReply #27

Offline Meyer

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2015, 01:35:48 AM »
I went to see this movie and I was suprised. It didn't totally suck. Sure I still think the old EU had better stories that could have been used and that it was in no way original as advertised but still a good movie in its own right.

Many of the problem I thought it had, have already been unveiled by other (stormtrooper helmets don't filter gas, Death Star on steroids etc) so I'll skip those and point some, in my opinion, bigger flaws of the movie.

The superweapon seems to be a one shot weapon. If it gets it's power by draining the star it's orbiting which is then destroyed in the process, how can it reload? It was built on a planet if I understood correctly and planets don't move like ships that can fly to another system. It may have more than one star, like Tatooine but still doesn't seem like a weapon that can be fired once every day or so.

Destruction of the New Republic capital had few problems in my opinion. The biggest is that how are Han and the other heroes able to see it so clearly in the sky while they're not even in the same system? The capital is in the Core (but not Coruscant as I thought) and Han and the rest are somewhere in the Western Reaches, on the Mid Rim section of it according to Wookiepedia. There is no way the light from the destruction of Hosnian Prime(???) would reach them as it does in the movie. Also when the First Order fires the weapon, it's destructive force of plasma or whatever strikes within seconds to a target that is on the Core while the weapon is in the Unknown Regions. And still has enough destructive force to destroy the entire system.

Then the state of the Galaxy. Is the First Order a splinter group that has separated from the Empire or is it what the Empire has become? Why is Leia part of the Resistance and not New Republic? How did the Galactic civil war end? I have more questions but those should suffice for now. So many unanswered questions. I know they will be answered in future movies and books and such but right now I feel there are huge gaps in the story. Meaning that the storyteller group or whatever it was that had the job to make sure the new canon story is consistent, are failing in that job. Also this new canon doens't seem very interesting.
Right now it seems that the entire story after Endor is:
Rebellion wins the war, Empire survives in the Unknown Regions, New Republic lives happily for 30 years, Skywalker tries to rebuild the Jedi Order, ONE student falls, Skywalker goes into exile, First Order emerges, Resistance forms to fight First Order, the Force awakens begins.

As for the characters, some were good while other not so much.
FN-2187, a highly trained stormtrooper indoctrinated from childhood to the principles of the First Order, defects after his first mission. Somehow that doens't seem realistic.
Poe Dameron, Resistances answer to Wedge Antilles. Enough said I think.
Rey, daughter of someone important (Han and Leia or Lukes perhaps) who meets Han Solo by accident and through him discovers her destiny as something greater than a mere scavenger. I too think she learns to control her powers rather quickly.
Kylo Ren, a fallen jedi who is conflicted of his choices. The problem I have with Kylo is his birthname, Ben. Why would Han and Leia name their kid after Obi-Wan? Leia never met him and Han knew him for like a day and they didn't really see eye to eye. A rather silly thing to complain I know.
Captain Phasma, her role in this movie was not as big as I thought and it was left a bit unclear wheter she survives.
General Hux seemed like Tarkin, without his commanding presence.
Snoke, what a stupid name. Also when I saw him in the movie I immediately thought that he is Palpatine reborn. But after the movie I learned that he had in fact been modeled after an early design of Palpatine so maybe it's just a coincidence.

This became a rather long post it seems. Sorry for that.
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December 23, 2015, 02:49:48 AMReply #28

Offline Pali

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2015, 02:49:48 AM »
JJ has no concept of distances in space.  In his Star Treks, this pissed me off to no end.

December 23, 2015, 04:06:36 AMReply #29

Offline Guderian

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2015, 04:06:36 AM »
After reading a bit here and there from the posts i agree with everything i have read so far ^^
It is a very good Science-Fiction Movie with a solid story but i felt that after Han got Fyn and Rey on his Ship the Star Wars feeling was lost.
Starting with these stupid Rataplatatata-i-didn't-remember-that-stupid-name. (and i don't even want to, because they were completly stupid)

Sometimes less is more, there were too many characters tried as "main" or at least important forced down the throat....
And everyone of these so called "important" characters like Maz Canada (i know it's not written that way ^^), Phasma, Snoke lacks any kind of depth.
If you would have left at least those 3 out you could have concentrated on more important things, now they are lose ends you could have avoided...

December 23, 2015, 05:19:30 AMReply #30

Offline kucsidave

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2015, 05:19:30 AM »
Sometimes less is more, there were too many characters tried as "main" or at least important forced down the throat....
And everyone of these so called "important" characters like Maz Canada (i know it's not written that way ^^), Phasma, Snoke lacks any kind of depth.
If you would have left at least those 3 out you could have concentrated on more important things, now they are lose ends you could have avoided...
Just a question:
What did you knew about the emperor in episode 5 when he came in?
He is Vader's master and a bad guy. that's all. We all got to know him better only later.
Give this triology time.

Like one of my friends complained that: "Yeah, Kylo feels that han and the others landed in the planet but did not noticed Han until he shouted at him? Of course. That is bullshit"
I answered him the followind: "what about Vader and Kenobi? Vader felt him on the death star, yet couldn't save all the trouble to locate him in the falcon, let alone Ben roamed free on the death star for a good time."


The problem is with fans that a third of them loves everything just because it is his franchise and he can go into his fav. universe again, the secod third criticizes everything because it was not 100% like the original one and he/she just wanted to see that again while bringing in something "new" which is impossible. It is new or the old one. can't be both.
the last third is those who can let go of the franchise and watch a movie like it would be the first they see in that franchise.
And you have to admit it,
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 05:21:48 AM by kucsidave »
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

December 23, 2015, 05:37:16 AMReply #31

Offline Pali

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2015, 05:37:16 AM »
Just a question:
What did you knew about the emperor in episode 5 when he came in?

Or Piett, or Ozzel, or Veers, or Boba Fett...
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 07:04:03 AM by Pali »

December 23, 2015, 05:59:16 AMReply #32

Offline Guderian

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2015, 05:59:16 AM »
Just a question:
What did you knew about the emperor in episode 5 when he came in?
He is Vader's master and a bad guy. that's all. We all got to know him better only later.
That is sort of my point:
You have time to introduce new characters and build them up.
You can mention them, but now you have half a dozen characters that feel forced in and just being introduced to be introduced.
I hope i will see more of these characters, get to know them better and i will give it time.
But right now i think there were too many characters that did serve no purpose or very little.

December 23, 2015, 01:22:24 PMReply #33

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2015, 01:22:24 PM »
Just a question:
What did you knew about the emperor in episode 5 when he came in?
He is Vader's master and a bad guy. that's all. We all got to know him better only later.
Give this triology time.

Like one of my friends complained that: "Yeah, Kylo feels that han and the others landed in the planet but did not noticed Han until he shouted at him? Of course. That is bullshit"
I answered him the followind: "what about Vader and Kenobi? Vader felt him on the death star, yet couldn't save all the trouble to locate him in the falcon, let alone Ben roamed free on the death star for a good time."


The problem is with fans that a third of them loves everything just because it is his franchise and he can go into his fav. universe again, the secod third criticizes everything because it was not 100% like the original one and he/she just wanted to see that again while bringing in something "new" which is impossible. It is new or the old one. can't be both.
the last third is those who can let go of the franchise and watch a movie like it would be the first they see in that franchise.
And you have to admit it,

Kuscidave, I listed multiple problems I had with it as a film. It is highly unoriginal story wise, nearly is an identical copy of IV, has extremely weak villains, relies heavily on the nostalgia and special effects over substance and anything actually new and worst of all has the laziest soundtrack of any of the movies. Say what you will about the prequels but at least tgey brought us memorable music like Dual of the Fates, Battle of the Heros, Grievous theme and the Order 66 piece. This one was on auto tune and insert Force theme here
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

December 23, 2015, 05:44:26 PMReply #34

Offline kucsidave

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2015, 05:44:26 PM »
Kuscidave, I listed multiple problems I had with it as a film. It is highly unoriginal story wise, nearly is an identical copy of IV, has extremely weak villains, relies heavily on the nostalgia and special effects over substance and anything actually new and worst of all has the laziest soundtrack of any of the movies. Say what you will about the prequels but at least tgey brought us memorable music like Dual of the Fates, Battle of the Heros, Grievous theme and the Order 66 piece. This one was on auto tune and insert Force theme here
Funny thing is that the soundtrack was composed by the same person who did every single Star Wars movie, and J.J gave him free hand.
Of course it was a redone 4, this was what fans actually demanded from him. Though I agree that this was a HUGE mistake that J.J. delivered.
The villains, yeah... no... My personal problem with Kylo is the same one I had with Anakyn in the prequel triology. He whines too much...
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

December 23, 2015, 07:08:32 PMReply #35

Offline Pali

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2015, 07:08:32 PM »
*shrugs* Perhaps my next viewing will diminish my enjoyment of the movie, but I somewhat doubt it.  I understand most of the issues people here have with it, and even agree with many, but I still can't shake the impression that many here are judging it using a different criteria than is used on the old movies, and that the old are getting passes not granted to the new.  Underdeveloped, shallow primary and secondary bad guys (particularly if viewed as individual movies rather than a trilogy)?  Check.  Unoriginal story?  Check (except for V).  No understanding of distance in space?  Check (most egregiously in V).

Ironically, most people I've discussed the movie with IRL think I'm the one who is too harsh on it. ;)

December 23, 2015, 11:59:24 PMReply #36

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2015, 11:59:24 PM »
It's main problem that it treads old grounds... altogether too kriffing much. If I wanted to watch A New Hope again, I can use my DVD and watch it for free. Why do we need to watch A New Hope 2.0? It's also literally so lazy in this regard they just injected the very same soundtrack! basically "Insert Force Theme" Insert "Yoda/Theme of Love"

It is exactly like A New Hope.  An astromech droid containing sensitive information for an Empire-fighting Rebellion barely escapes an attack that cripples his masters ship by Imperial forces spearheaded by the main bad guy, a Dark Jedi/Sith who wears full black and speaks behind a mask that alters his voice. The droid's original master is captured by said bad guy and the droid must come across a new master, one who is a lonely teenager on a desert world, but first the droid is temporarily captured by Jawa like creature. They meet up with a second companion and barely escape an Imperial attack on the Millennium Falcon, where they meet up with Han Solo and Chewbacca. Meanwhile, on the large, spherical battlestation belonging to the Empire that has a weapon capable of destroying planets, the bad guy interrogates the captured droid master for information. Not much later, the Empire's superweapon is fired on an enemy planet, homeworld to an important character and ally of the Rebellion. Deciding that the moment to strike is now, the Rebellion orchestrates an attack on this battlestation, involving a low altitude run with X-Wings and TIE Fighters and a weak spot that needs to be blown up. Meanwhile, an important character and father-figure to the main character is killed by an old acquaintance, ending with the main character shouting in protest. Finally the battle culminates with the destruction of the battlestation and the main bad guy's fate left ambiguous, while the heroes are celebrated on a forest world near a base that oddly resembles a temple.

Now, which movie was I talking about? IV or VII?

It billed itself as new, got rid of existing canon for "Creative Freedom" then did NOTHING with it!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 12:28:35 AM by Lord Xizer »
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

December 24, 2015, 01:12:00 AMReply #37

Offline Pali

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2015, 01:12:00 AM »
I agree.  Plot was a complete rehash of New Hope.  Somehow, that didn't ruin it for me the way it did for you, and I'm sorry it did. :( I never expected originality from JJ, so it didn't bother me that there wasn't much. EDIT: If it helps, this lack of originality is my main criticism of the movie as well, and why I seem to rate it a point or so below most of the people I know IRL, why I deem the movie to be "good" rather than "great".  Your grading scale just seems to give originality more weight than mine. ;)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 01:36:20 AM by Pali »

December 24, 2015, 02:52:22 AMReply #38

Offline Pentastar Enforcer

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2015, 02:52:22 AM »
Liking all the opinions so far, I thoroughly enjoyed the film overall, I didn't like the copying of Episode IV a lot, but I'd say it was done pretty well for copying that movie. I don't see how the ENTIRE New Republic fleet was destroyed on the Hosnian System however, must have been pretty small. I have a feeling the Imperial Remnant may show up at some point, but in what form I have no clue. Can't wait for further entries, as after, this was only the beginning. What are your guy's thoughts on what will happen in the plot next? Personally I think the IR is going to show up at some point (yay for the team), and a lot of interest in the Unknown Regions is curious.....


I got a few little bits of proof with me as well - The theory on Snoke revealed.

http://geeknation.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-supreme-leader-snokes-identity-revealed-spoilers/

http://collider.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-supreme-leader-snoke-theories-andy-serkis/




The Galactic Empire - The best thing to happen to the galaxy since Midichlorian counts.


December 24, 2015, 03:34:42 AMReply #39

Offline Pali

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Re: The Force Awakens discussion(spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2015, 03:34:42 AM »
I don't see how the ENTIRE New Republic fleet was destroyed on the Hosnian System however, must have been pretty small. I have a feeling the Imperial Remnant may show up at some point, but in what form I have no clue.

It seems, according to what I've read on Wookiepedia, that in this storyline the NR disarmed almost completely after peace with the remains of the Empire was formed, and those remains went off into the Unknown Regions and ended up eventually returning in the form of the First Order.  So the First Order effectively is this storyline's version of the IR.

 

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