Warlord Faction Development

[Corey]

Being able to build them in the mod doesn't depend on having built them canonically. Zsinj had one, wanted more, they played a key role in his strategies and he had the resources to do it, if anyone did. Canon is also super inconsistent about how much of an investment it really is and how rare they were. The way its presented, none of the 5 era leaders except Palpatine was shown building them, get we still give that option to several of them.

And Xizer, a lot of these groups at the time Proclaimed allegiance to the Moffs or Grand Vizier while operating independently, including most of these warlord factions. Makati got authorisation for a lot of thestuff he did from deals with Isard, but unless he was fighting against Zsinj directly.

[Slornie]

Being able to build them in the mod doesn't depend on having built them canonically. Zsinj had one, wanted more, they played a key role in his strategies and he had the resources to do it, if anyone did. Canon is also super inconsistent about how much of an investment it really is and how rare they were. The way its presented, none of the 5 era leaders except Palpatine was shown building them, get we still give that option to several of them.

I thought we based the units buildable for each faction on what they canonically had available (not necessarily having actually built them)?

Ysanne can build Executors because beyond Lusankya (which she commands) she had at least one known in service and KDY were building more (e.g. the aforementioned Razor's Kiss) for the Empire during her tenure.  Thrawn can't build them because he didn't have access to any (as far as we know) and he didn't agree with them strategically.  Pellaeon can build them because he acquired Reaper, Megador and Dominion.

[Lord Xizer]

Being able to build them in the mod doesn't depend on having built them canonically. Zsinj had one, wanted more, they played a key role in his strategies and he had the resources to do it, if anyone did. Canon is also super inconsistent about how much of an investment it really is and how rare they were. The way its presented, none of the 5 era leaders except Palpatine was shown building them, get we still give that option to several of them.

And Xizer, a lot of these groups at the time Proclaimed allegiance to the Moffs or Grand Vizier while operating independently, including most of these warlord factions. Makati got authorisation for a lot of thestuff he did from deals with Isard, but unless he was fighting against Zsinj directly.

I'd say Zsinj should only be able to build one Executor class(and only at Kuat) Zsinj had the resources to maintain his SSD and possibly a second, but Leia actually addresses this very thing in a conversation with Han.
"What's to stop him(Zsinj) or another Warlord from building an entire FLEET of the things (Super Star Destroyers)?" Han
"I don't think he could do that Han...they are terribly expensive to build and maintain...he might be able to run one or two at the most. He simply couldn't afford more." Leia

This is a fair compromise, Zsinj gets the option to get another SSD but not the same amount as the IR can build. The fact Zsinj never tried to build one of his own adds to this point(Unlike Delvardus) he tried to steal one instead. As far as we know also the only shipyards that ever built SSDs were Kuat, Fondor and Byss. The only known exception was that the Night Hammer was built in deep space(and took nearly 8 years and almost every credit Delvardus had to construct.) Zsinj simply didn't have the time with a five sided war between himself, the IR, NR, GM, HC and PA.

As to Makati I still feel like Banjeer would be a closer fit as Makati died in the first year after Endor attacking the Corp Sector under Isard's orders.(Possibly as a way of eliminating him as a potential future candidate for the Throne) What about Captain Netbers? Zsinj could use another ground hero. Netbers was close quarters combat and directly ran Stormtrooper forces trying to kill the Wraiths on Saffalore. He could be a commando unit. Even the fake 181st perhaps? That gives some hero variety to Zsinj, instead of all but Melvar and Gethzeron being cap ship heroes.

 Syn is definitely a good fit for Maldrood as he worked with them though he was still mainstream.

[Corey]

I thought we based the units buildable for each faction on what they canonically had available (not necessarily having actually built them)?

It's primarily what they had available to them (especially when distinguishing between eras since it's one of the few levers we have), but also what would help make the faction more functional to play as or against, and also pretty importantly what the  faction itself would have wanted to do with the resources if it got them. Also, as far as that quote goes, the universe is terribly inconsistent with how many SSDs or even regular ISDs one could reasonably expect to build and control. One one hand, all the resources of the Eriadu Authority for years went into the Night Hammer. On the other, a single planet built seemingly dozens if not hundreds of SSD at Byss over the course of a decade, maybe two. If there's any non-Palpatine Imperial figure post-Endor who would have been perfectly happy to have a full fleet of SSDs, I'd argue Zsinj would be that guy. We can't always limit build options based on what the faction could afford to field because there's no reason to say that because a Zsinj Empire with tons of shipyards and half the galaxy would be both capable and willing to build them.  It's entirely possible that despite their early exits from the war, you could end up with a scenario where Zsinj and the Eriadu Authority are the sole powers left, and we have to allow for that.

We almost certainly can't make Netbers.

[Lord Xizer]

Understandable. My main concern is not diminishing the SSD heroes significance.  I'd very much like to avoid a galaxy where 12 SSDs are flitting around in single fleets and battles. It lessens the how do you say, importance of an SSD.

[Mat8876]

If I saw a fleet with 12 SSD in it, I'd say to myself how the **** do I take that out.

[tlmiller]

I agree that if he had the ability, Zsinj would have had multiple SSD's.  Delvardus as well.  I agree with limiting them to lower levels than the IR also if for no other reason than to distinguish that they are a "minor" faction.

[Lord Xizer]

I agree that if he had the ability, Zsinj would have had multiple SSD's.  Delvardus as well.  I agree with limiting them to lower levels than the IR also if for no other reason than to distinguish that they are a "minor" faction.

Agreed

[kucsidave]

I agree that if he had the ability, Zsinj would have had multiple SSD's.  Delvardus as well.  I agree with limiting them to lower levels than the IR also if for no other reason than to distinguish that they are a "minor" faction.

I have to agree to some point, but... We still have to do something about the fact that:

IR have Executors and Sovereigns (+Lusankya[E1], Eclipse[E3] and Knight Hammer[E4])
PA will have Bellators[E?] (+Vengeance and Reaper[E1+])
NR have the Viscounts[E5] (+Lusankya[E3])
EotH have no SSD, but those Phalanxes are making a real punch...
If we want a gameplay as a minor faction we still have to get the required tools to survive, or nobody will play them.

Maybe we should give them bonus units, like how every faction can have Battle Dragons and stuff like this, we could give them some units for rewards too.
Zsinj taking Kuat as an example gives him 1 Executor(Aka: Razor's kiss) and it would make sense for him to have it this way.

[Corey]

First, disagree with the implication that SSD for others therefore SSD for them for balancing reasons is any reason to give someone an SSD. It then means that you HAVE to have that ship to win, and whoevers SSD wins therefore wins the war. Not good, and effectively not how the mod works.

Honestly the term "minor faction" is meaningless in this context once the decision is made to expand them into playable factions which the player can have more interaction with. It means more that they're available in fewer GCs than others, if anything. If the answer to why they should be handicapped in some way is they're a "minor faction" when that has no implications for what they were actually capable of and will achieve ingame. It can mean that, depending on the campaign, they have a harder starting point, but again in the main GCs where they're available, Zsinj is not in a much worse position than the Remnant. ICW sets a start point for campaigns, not an endpoint. The end point for the Hunt for Zsinj GC is not that Zsinj must lose. If a Zsinj player gets to Kuat and Fondor with the resources to build an Executor, there's no reason he should have less access to them than Isard or even Pellaeon, who would have been far less inclined to do so.

[tlmiller]

First, disagree with the implication that SSD for others therefore SSD for them for balancing reasons is any reason to give someone an SSD. It then means that you HAVE to have that ship to win, and whoevers SSD wins therefore wins the war. Not good, and effectively not how the mod works.

Honestly the term "minor faction" is meaningless in this context once the decision is made to expand them into playable factions which the player can have more interaction with. It means more that they're available in fewer GCs than others, if anything. If the answer to why they should be handicapped in some way is they're a "minor faction" when that has no implications for what they were actually capable of and will achieve ingame. It can mean that, depending on the campaign, they have a harder starting point, but again in the main GCs where they're available, Zsinj is not in a much worse position than the Remnant. ICW sets a start point for campaigns, not an endpoint. The end point for the Hunt for Zsinj GC is not that Zsinj must lose. If a Zsinj player gets to Kuat and Fondor with the resources to build an Executor, there's no reason he should have less access to them than Isard or even Pellaeon, who would have been far less inclined to do so.

I don't know, Pellaeon used a few dreadnoughts.  He commanded from the Reaper after absorbing the PA territory, later after Reaper was destroyed he commanded from Megador.

[Corey]

He used them more, but he also had them more readily available to him. People kept essentially handing them over whenever he walked into the room.

[Pali]

He used them more, but he also had them more readily available to him. People kept essentially handing them over whenever he walked into the room.

In fairness to the Moffs, he's who I'd have given them to as well.

[Lord Xizer]

Corey makes some good points on the limiting and SSDs do have some exploitable weaknesses too.
I'm sure that with Maldrood focused on the VSD playstyle for mass numbers of smaller ships swarming will work.
Delvardus as a heavy hitter but with fewer ships because of it.
Zsinj as the balance of both worlds.

[Revan0123]

In fairness to the Moffs, he's who I'd have given them to as well.

Yeah, I would do so as well. What idiot would say no to the guy who survived this long?

[Grimnak]

Corey has stated that the Greater Maldrood will be receiving Bellators, which is still a bit larger of a ship than I would have considered for them.

[tlmiller]

Technically, he stated they will PROBABLY recieve Bellators, which means they're still debating on having them for the Maldrood or not.

[Lord Xizer]

Technically, he stated they will PROBABLY recieve Bellators, which means they're still debating on having them for the Maldrood or not.

And if they do get them it will be in later eras like the PA I'd imagine

[Grimnak]

Later eras would be nice indeed.

I'm still trying to figure out if Delvardus will lose the Night Hammer automatically in era 4 due to Dalla getting it or not?

EDIT:  Didn't the Warlords decrease in power throughout the years just as the IR did?

[Corey]

Locking units, spawning and removing heroes, planet capture bonuses and pretty much everything else requires story scripting, which cannot be done with any faction beyond the original three. All that can really be done with other factions is changing the tech level, since that's something you can do via the IR/NR/EotH's story script.