Warlord Faction Development

[tlmiller]

Thanks for the support with the Assassins
I think the old Allegiance-class Battlecruisers or Assertor-Class Star Dreadnought would also make sense for Warlords instead of the common Executor Class.(Of course late era only  )
The Raider Class corvette might also make some difference if given to one specific Warlord http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Raider-class_corvette

Assertor IMO would be too powerful.  You're looking at a ship that was designed around fully conventional warfare.  IE - it was a 15 KM long Tector.  It outguns the Executor by a significant amount, with a significantly stronger hull, although has no fighter capacity at all.

I think the Procursator from Ascendency would make total sense.  A scaled down ISD, cheaper to produce but still powerful, and still able to fulfill the "jack of all trades" role since it still carries fighters.  Something that Warlords who couldn't afford the larger battlecruisers and dreadnoughts would consider, since they still (theoretically) outgunned VSD's, and were the same size as the MC-80/80B so were still good sized ships.  Ecspecially IMO for something like the Greater Maldrood, that wasn't known for having wave after wave of ISD's, or any dreadnoughts whatsoever.

Now the Allegiance you mention, that would IMO make sense for Zero Command, since the Allegiance is just a slightly overgrown Tector.

[Lord Xizer]

Tan uniforms for Delvardus infantry would emphasize his use of army troopers. ATATs should also be eitger cheaper or more abundant for the Eriadu Authority due to his gaining large stockpiles of them.

[Grimnak]

Assertor IMO would be too powerful.  You're looking at a ship that was designed around fully conventional warfare.  IE - it was a 15 KM long Tector.  It outguns the Executor by a significant amount, with a significantly stronger hull, although has no fighter capacity at all.

I would like to counter this; while I see that the Warlords shouldn't be able to 1v1 a Remnant SSD, we need to keep in mind that the Warlords will still remain a minor power and will therefore lack the support and economy that the Imperial Remnant and even Pentastar Alignment have.  I would love more than anything to view the Warlords as a threat, and Zsinj did use SSDs, so it does make sense.

One possible way to balance it out would be to lower the shield value of the Assertor.  Obviously, it shouldn't go to every Warlord (like Teradoc), but I would love to see Zsinj field SSDs.  As for the Allegiance, I'm not completely sure if this would make canonical sense, but a larger Tector could be of some use to Delvardus, as he himself commanded a Praetor-II.

[tlmiller]

Balancing it by making it weaker than it was would be a horrible way of balancing.  Better to not have it than to weaken it.  Besides, everything Zsinj was associated with was known to be Executors, it makes no sense for him to have an Assertor, doubly since it couldn't carry any of his precious Tie Raptors.

[kucsidave]

Balancing it by making it weaker than it was would be a horrible way of balancing.  Better to not have it than to weaken it.  Besides, everything Zsinj was associated with was known to be Executors, it makes no sense for him to have an Assertor, doubly since it couldn't carry any of his precious Tie Raptors.

If we are talking about Tie Raptors... Will Zsinj get 2 types of Escort Carriers? 1 for standard fighter deployment for something like era 1 and maybe 2, and one with Tie Raptors from 2 maybe 3 on?
And you wouldn't have to take away it's shieldstrength. I think the absent of fighters would be a huge disadvantage by itself, and it could have a pop cap of 25-30, so it couldn't have half of the support fleet of an Executor, evening the odds quite good.

Assertor IMO would be too powerful.  You're looking at a ship that was designed around fully conventional warfare.  IE - it was a 15 KM long Tector.  It outguns the Executor by a significant amount, with a significantly stronger hull, although has no fighter capacity at all.

Yes it was, but you also seems to forget that the warlords we are talking about were killed before Era 5. Zsinj had been taken down in 8 ABY, even before Thrawn started his campaign and he was pretty powerful at the time. Heck, like it or not, he had a mayor part of the galaxy under his control, and in a multi era GC like ICW he should have some kind of a Star Dreadnought or Battlecruiser building capacity in late Eras.
Delvardus was practically murdered by Daala at Tsoss Beacon in 12 ABY and in the moment, he was a pretty powerful Warlord. Our third competator was Teradoc whom had the same fate, however he was not even close to Delvardus's strength.

I think the Procursator from Ascendency would make total sense.  A scaled down ISD, cheaper to produce but still powerful, and still able to fulfill the "jack of all trades" role since it still carries fighters.  Something that Warlords who couldn't afford the larger battlecruisers and dreadnoughts would consider, since they still (theoretically) outgunned VSD's, and were the same size as the MC-80/80B so were still good sized ships.  Ecspecially IMO for something like the Greater Maldrood, that wasn't known for having wave after wave of ISD's, or any dreadnoughts whatsoever.

I can't argue with that. Procursator for Maldrood would make total sense

Now the Allegiance you mention, that would IMO make sense for Zero Command, since the Allegiance is just a slightly overgrown Tector.

But Zero Command shall not be made, and it would make sense for Delvardus. He commanded a Preator II and almost finished the construction of the Night Hammer(Which is in the game for Daala) so why not give him something powerful for Era 5 instead of a ship already used by an opposing faction, not to mention a person who killed him?

[Grimnak]

I wasn't 100% certain if the Assertor's shield strength was already predetermined.  However, I overlooked its lack of fighters, which definitely makes it a weaker vessel.  I believe a build limit would have to be set (like other SSDs), but that should be enough to balance Zsinj.

As for Teradoc and the Greater Maldrood, it would make canonical sense that capital ships are limited (not nonexistent) and CC VSD-II's be the ship of choice.

As for Delvardus, I don't think he should have to rely on ISDs, but instead Battlecruisers (and as previously mentioned, AT-ATs on land).  I don't know if this is possible to code and script, but giving the EA an SSD (Night Hammer) up until Era 4 would be amazing (Daala obviously takes it afterwards).  It may not be ideal, but I know I'd love to see a Night Hammer under proper control for awhile. 

[tlmiller]

I wasn't 100% certain if the Assertor's shield strength was already predetermined.  However, I overlooked its lack of fighters, which definitely makes it a weaker vessel.  I believe a build limit would have to be set (like other SSDs), but that should be enough to balance Zsinj.

As for Teradoc and the Greater Maldrood, it would make canonical sense that capital ships are limited (not nonexistent) and CC VSD-II's be the ship of choice.

As for Delvardus, I don't think he should have to rely on ISDs, but instead Battlecruisers (and as previously mentioned, AT-ATs on land).  I don't know if this is possible to code and script, but giving the EA an SSD (Night Hammer) up until Era 4 would be amazing (Daala obviously takes it afterwards).  It may not be ideal, but I know I'd love to see a Night Hammer under proper control for awhile. 

It's weaker, but only the same way as the Tector is weaker than the ISD.  No fighters, but has heavier shielding, and heavier armament with heavier armor  I doubt the team would consider adding it anyway due to not wanting to make any more unique models for ICW that aren't going to be used in Ascendency, so it's all just hypothetical anyway.  But regardless, I think the Assertor would be a very bad idea, since it's smaller than an Executor, making it cost MORE population than an Executor would also be counter-intuitive.  It's smaller, taking less resources, less crew, so raise the population cost?  Plain and simple, in my mind, the Assertor is simply too powerful for the mod.  I personally think it's the 3rd best looking dreadnought in legends universe (Sovereign & Vengeance #1 & #2 to me), but it's simply TOO powerful for the mod, given how just truly beastly it is if you ever read Ansel's notes on it.

For GM, totally agreed.  Limited build or increased cost of ISD-I's and ISD-II's, no Tectors, no Praetors, no dreadnoughts, unlimited CC VSD-II's and Procursators as his ships of the line.  Maybe also have the CC's have a decreased cost at the primary shipyards for the Maldrood?  To make them able to fielded in greater numbers, which is what they were designed for.

As to EA, the only real battlecruiser assosiated with them was the Thalassa, which was lost in 4 ABY (legendarily), but I think if they were given a build limit on the Praetor-II's, then it would work really well (since he didn't have access to the same quality of shipyards as the IR, or even the PA really).  I agree with allowing them to build a single black Executor (the Night Hammer, lifetime build limit of 1), since it's already in the mod as the Knight Hammer, just would need another entry in order to allow him to build it as the Night Hammer.  Just might be weird if EA survived with the Night Hammer until era 4 and the Night Hammer was fighting the Knight Hammer (although minor issue, to me, since Knight Hammer is a hero unit, and the Night Hammer would be a "normal" constructed unit).  I wouldn't mind seeing the Allegiance as a buildable unit for him though, if the team is planning on adding it into the mod.  Also, I think he should have the Tector available at all era's, to show his focus on heavy units (given the Thalassa was his flagship).

[Lord Xizer]

Well you could solve the 2 Night Hammers by making the IR Daala spawn in Gorgon and to get Night Hammer have to kill him like in Reunification. This gives EA the ship and also gives the IR the option to gain it if they take out Delvardus.

I agree the Asserter would be a poor choice for Zsinj. Seems like more of a Harrsk ship(Which I think the Megador or Dominion were Asserters...I don't have any record of any other Warlords with them. Zsinj tried to steal Razor's kiss another Executor but never had any other types of Dreadnaughts in his fleet. Maldrood should definitely have a CC VSD focused build type playstyle with more expensive and limited ISDs and no battlecruisers as it is directly stated by Pellaeon that Teradoc's whole MO was to build enormous armadas of smaller ships rather than few Large vessels(Exactly the opposite of Delvardus's build policy which should focus on quality over quantity)

[Grimnak]

Well you could solve the 2 Night Hammers by making the IR Daala spawn in Gorgon and to get Night Hammer have to kill him like in Reunification. This gives EA the ship and also gives the IR the option to gain it if they take out Delvardus.

That would be fantastic.  The only foreseeable issue would be in regards to an early Delvardus death.  She would obviously have to spawn with the Night Hammer.  I'm sure it's possible, and that would make one hell of a faction, whether you're playing as them or against.

Personally, I would likely play Greater Maldrood the most (most similar to New Republic), but I would also experiment with Delvardus and Zsinj's empires.  It will be a unique challenge considering all three of them are minor powers when compared to the IR.  There are so many possibilities when it comes to the development of new factions.  I know I've said it before, but we MUST add the Duskhan League to Art of War.  Just saying.

[tlmiller]

Not sure if you can script something like that in a multi-era GC.  I admit, it would be neat if you could write a script that would spawn her in Gorgon if the Night Hammer still exists, and if not spawn her in Knight Hammer.  Obviously it's possible to do it in single era GC (reunification), but interesting to see if one of the team thinks it's possible (and something they'd be interested in doing) for multi-era.

[Grimnak]

It only truly affects one era, so I'm not sure if that means anything. 

[Corey]

Assertor

Not going to do it. Really, none of the groups have an opening for it except as some potential Pentastar and maybe Eriadu reward for capturing a major shipyard, which is a pretty small window for something that would take the same resources to make as probably 3-4 more conventional ships. If you look at all the Imperial groups now, being Remnant, Pentastar, Eraidu, Maldrood, Zsinj, the "common" Executor class makes more sense for most of them for that very reason; it's common.

The Remnant already has the Executor, Sovereign and Eclipse. Adding the Assertor there isn't really warranted. Zsinj was pretty well identified as an Executor Warlord, so him having the ability to build Executors makes sense as well. Maldrood and Pentastar are trying to be kept away from being super-capital centric, hence the Pentastar (and likely Maldrood) getting the Bellator. Eriadu was one of the few groups we know for sure actually did build an Executor during it's reign and didn't just scrounge up a pre-existing one like most groups, Remnant included, tended to.

Daala Gorgon/Knight Hammer

IT would be more complicated than you'd think, but potentially possible depending on how the game reads events...

The other thing to keep in mind, however, is that story scripting can't be used for any of the Warlord factions.

Maldrood Capitals

The prospect of limiting Maldrood's capital ships is pretty scary, even if it were just from a cost perspective. The CC VSDs are good for frigates, but capital ships are far too important, especially when Imperial groups fall behind in their capital ship strength in the later eras to begin with.

It will be a unique challenge considering all three of them are minor powers when compared to the IR.

Not necessarily. They have marginally less territory (hell, Zsinj may even have more) but strategically keep in mind where that territory is located. Pentastar has the Remnant south and Zsinj East, Zsinj has Maldrood south and Pentastar West with some access to core Imperial planets. Eriadu has New Republic groups on either side and Remnant north. Regardless of which faction configurations exist, the Remnant may start witrh higher-value core planets but their territory is pretty much always accessible to every faction, all the time.

I know I've said it before, but we MUST add the Duskhan League to Art of War.  Just saying.

Again, we have to keep some perspective on stability and the selection freeze here. We're adding 3, potentially 4 factions to these large GCs, and 4, potentially 5 groups with active galactic AI. That's double, potentially more than double what already exists. The Duskhan League is almost certainly not worth that, especially when giving them enough territory to survive or expand at all also has to eat into the territory budgets for everyone else and when you look at the fact that they're essentially just another Warlord faction, smaller than the other 5 Imperial factions and with one unique ship. The addition of these factions already necessitates a pretty major reworking of the two existing major multi-era GCs so as to not bloat them.

[Grimnak]

Again, we have to keep some perspective on stability and the selection freeze here. We're adding 3, potentially 4 factions to these large GCs, and 4, potentially 5 groups with active galactic AI. That's double, potentially more than double what already exists. The Duskhan League is almost certainly not worth that, especially when giving them enough territory to survive or expand at all also has to eat into the territory budgets for everyone else and when you look at the fact that they're essentially just another Warlord faction, smaller than the other 5 Imperial factions and with one unique ship. The addition of these factions already necessitates a pretty major reworking of the two existing major multi-era GCs so as to not bloat them.

I successfully used the selection defreezer today, and it is very simple to use.  I believe the game shouldn't be hindered just because of the possibilities of the freeze, since it truly is a simple fix.  The only reason I really consider the Duskhan League feasible for AoW is because the majority of their normal "space" is empty in this particular scenario.  I understand they won't add much variety with the Warlords getting expanded, but it would create an extra challenge separating the EotH and the IR.

[Corey]

It's simple to use if you have some familiarity with computers, which not everyone does. There's a lot of people who simply don't read documentation as well and don't know the freeze exists, and who, after experiencing it multiple times, would give up.

More importantly, you're using it after experiencing a likely several-hundred week game before it hit, and probably only have to use it once before the game ends. With this many factions it's almost certainly not something that exists to fix a problem in case it comes up; it's a necessary tool to play the game at all, and you'd have to use it very regularly. It's a gamebreaking bug, and kills the experience if every hour or two of gameplay requires quitting out, running a third party tool (which a lot of people may not trust or feel comfortable using) and reloading. That's not something that having another copy faction that a small portion of the playerbase even really knew about weighs favourably against.

[Grimnak]

So Delvardus owning the Night Hammer is a possibility?  That would make for one hell of a faction.  I really like the idea of three Warlords factions causing havoc.  I hope the galactic AI will be active when playing against them?

[Corey]

I hope the galactic AI will be active when playing against them?

This will depend on the selection freeze and the specific GC.

So Delvardus owning the Night Hammer is a possibility?  That would make for one hell of a faction.  I really like the idea of three Warlords factions causing havoc.

The hero situation for Eriadu is currently planned to be:
Delvardus - Thalassa (Starting)
Shea Hublin - Kabalian Cross, spawns Hublin's TIE Squadron (Starting)
Ivan Cronus - Night Hammer (Buildable once, Era 1+)
Possibly Veers.

New ones for others:
Zsinj - Afsheen Makati - Steadfast (He died trying to keep Imperial control over the Corporate Sector, which at that point meant Zsinj's control)
Teradoc - Peccati Syn - Fi (In control over Kashyyyk in Maldrood's neighbourhood, lost in a battle waiting for Maldrood support implying some relationship)

[tlmiller]

I vote yes on Veers, I always liked Veers.

[Grimnak]

This will depend on the selection freeze and the specific GC.

Let us hope all are enabled for Art of War.

As for the once-buildable Night Hammer, what will happen when Era 4 is reached and Daala assumes control?

[Lord Xizer]

The hero situation for Eriadu is currently planned to be:
Delvardus - Thalassa (Starting)
Shea Hublin - Kabalian Cross, spawns Hublin's TIE Squadron (Starting)
Ivan Cronus - Night Hammer (Buildable once, Era 1+)
Possibly Veers.

New ones for others:
Zsinj - Afsheen Makati - Steadfast (He died trying to keep Imperial control over the Corporate Sector, which at that point meant Zsinj's control)
Teradoc - Peccati Syn - Fi (In control over Kashyyyk in Maldrood's neighbourhood, lost in a battle waiting for Maldrood support implying some relationship)

Only one I disagree with is Makati. He died trying to keep the Corporate Sector yes, but for the Mainstream Empire run from Corusant. This means he'd be fighting AGAINST Zsinj.

[Slornie]

Zsinj was pretty well identified as an Executor Warlord, so him having the ability to build Executors makes sense as well.

No it doesn't. He had his flagship which he inherited before the Empire's collapse but the only other Executor he's connected with is Razor's Kiss. Which he stole from the still Empire-aligned KDY and which was destroyed almost as soon as he took possession of it.  At least Delvardus constructed his own (albeit spending almost all of his resources to do so).