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Author Topic: Super Star Destroyers and you  (Read 15458 times)

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April 13, 2012, 01:55:23 PM

Offline Senza

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Super Star Destroyers and you
« on: April 13, 2012, 01:55:23 PM »
Super Star Destroyers, love em or hate em, there's a lot of discussion about them and often times people who first play the mod are surprised by them and don't know how to deal with them. So I thought I'd create a thread with my knowledge so far of how to deal with them and how to use them as well.

Since destroying them is what people seem to have more problems with, I'll start out with that.

The first time you encounter a SSD, particularly the Executor class, you're likely to be stunned by the sheer amount of hardpoints the thing has. You will then promptly be stunned again when you realize that ALL of those 100+ hardpoints are WEAPONS batteries. Unlike in base FoC, where the shield generator and engines of a SSD could be destroyed, in Thrawn's Revenge, they cannot. Also unlike in base, though, the SSD does not have a stupidly low population value (I never understood why it was 3 in base, it just made Executor ludicrously overpowered with all its fighters combined with how powerful the ship itself already was on its own). They do still have a large fighter complement however, and this should be taken into account.

The first, and most vital thing to understand about a SSD is while that it boasts more firepower than many fleets, and certainly more shielding (it will take you a few minutes of sustained fire from several capital ships to bring its shields down), it has weaknesses. They are not invulnerable. The biggest weakness of these ships by far is their maneuverability. Or rather, their distinctive lack thereof. These things, for all intents and purposes, basically cannot turn around, and this is severely compounded by their enormous size, which makes it completely impossible for them to maneuver at all on some maps. In addition to this weakness, the sheer number of hardpoints on a SSD means that, by FoC game mechanics, despite its large armor value in the XMLs, each hardpoint might as well be made of paper. They are extremely easy to destroy once their immensely powerful shields go down.

 You might be thinking, okay, so what, they don't need to maneuver with how many weapons they have! That brings me to my second point. Much like in descriptions of the ships in established canon, a SSD in Thrawn's Revenge basically cannot hit something that is directly behind it. By far the easiest way to destroy these ships without using some sort of ground to space superweapon is to call in a few, maneuverable ships ahead of your main fleet, and maneuver them into a position where you can call in your main fleet of capital ships BEHIND the SSD, where it is essentially helpless to defend itself.

This is not always possible however, particularly when the ship has an escorting fleet. In these cases, different strategies are called for. Despite what the description says, a SSD is not vulnerable to massed fighter attack. At least, not while its shields are up (once they go down however such attacks are devastating due to their weak armor). However, my favored strategy DOES incorporate a massed fighter attack. My recommendation when you cannot flank a SSD is first to call in your main fleet as one organized body. With luck, the AI will be stupid, and will throw the ship's escort fleet at you, allowing you to destroy it before the SSD can stop turning every which way and come to face your fleet. Once most of the escort fleet has been destroyed, my usual strategy is to send a wave of fighters (not bombers) just ahead of my main fleet. These small, nimble ships will have a better chance of not being hit by the SSDs guns. Their purpose is not so much to cause damage to the SSD as it is to prevent damage to your main fleet and bombers by drawing fire away from said fleet, which should come in shortly after the fighters.

You see, the AI are stupid, and will usually continue to fire on your fighters with a large portion of the SSD's guns, despite the bombers and capital ships being the real threat. Not all of them, but enough to significantly lower damage to your main force. The second part of this strategy is to try to position all of your ships on one side of the SSD so it can only bring half of its weapons to bear on your ships. Additionally, once its shields go down, this allows you to focus fire on weapons on one side of the ship, which once you destroy enough of them, will basically make the ship harmless against your fleet and allow it to finish off the ship with impunity. Note that you will probably still lose some capital ships this way, as the SSD is a massive and extremely powerful ship with a dizzying array of weapons, and even with a large portion of its fire being drawn off, a SSD is still plenty powerful enough to destroy a capital ship.

The strategy for dealing with a super-laser equipped Sovereign or Eclipse class is similar, except you'll probably want to call in corvettes first regardless, to allow the ship to waste its super-laser on them, rather than say, your fleet's admiral, or the Interdictor you should probably have to keep the ship from escaping since their engines cannot be destroyed. Note however that these ships are weaker than the Executor class when the super-laser is not being used, because of the fact that a large portion of ship's power goes into powering the super-laser, less energy can be used on weapons. However do not discount them because of this, they are still very powerful and more than capable of holding their own.

April 13, 2012, 02:09:54 PMReply #1

Offline Senza

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2012, 02:09:54 PM »
Using the ships as part of your fleet isn't actually much different from destroying them once you understand their weaknesses. The first and most important thing you should realize is that it is best to call in the escort fleet ahead of your lumbering behemoth of a ship, allowing you to call it in from hyperspace in a position where it doesn't have to do much or any maneuvering in order to engage the enemy. If possible, put it in a position where it cannot be flanked, and if not, make sure to have your escorting fleet (which should have a few capital ships and corvettes in it) in a position where they can quickly intercept and destroy any ships that attempt to flank the SSD.

Have the SSD focus fire pretty much exclusively on large ships, as while its massive amount of weapons does somewhat make up for its inaccuracy against fighters, they are still relatively ineffectual against any fighters that do have shields when compared with how much damage they can do to capital ships. Plus, fighters and bombers are very little threat to a SSD unless you let them have free roam of the ship, because the bombers can only nibble away at its firepower, and losing 3 or 4 or even 10 turbolaser batteries does not diminish the overwhelming barrage of weapons fire an SSD can put out by an amount the enemy is likely to notice. As long as capital ships are destroyed before they can take down shields, non missile equipped fighters are for all intents and purposes, not a threat to a SSD except in overwhelmingly massive numbers that are basically impossible to field, and equally impossible to deal with. Let your corvettes and fighters handle the smaller ships while the SSD takes on the larger ships it was designed to take on. 

I have considerably less experience using SSDs as part of my fleets than I do in destroying them simply because I prefer smaller, more adaptable ships, so if any of you more seasoned mod players have better strategies, or amendments to ones I used, either for destroying SSDs or for using them as part of your fleets, please don't hesitate to post them!


April 13, 2012, 03:51:48 PMReply #2

Offline tlmiller

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2012, 03:51:48 PM »
I actually agree totally.  While I like larger ships, the SSD's are simply too large for me to use to any extent.  I will occassionally put Pally in a fleet just so I can come in and superlaser something (I enjoy watching that), but with that exception, I hate using the things myself.
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April 13, 2012, 07:13:22 PMReply #3

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2012, 07:13:22 PM »
Brilliant tactical analysis Senza. I'd like to offer a few strategies of my own about the SSDs if I may.

Proton torpedoes and concussion missiles are your best friends when dealing with SSDs as they ignore the shields and pass through to the hardpoints. B Wings and corellian Gunships are both great to use if the SSD is unsupported. With their maneuverability the gunships can quickly head around the lumbering SSD(I very much recommend staying outside it's line of sight if possible for this by sticking to the edges of the map and reforming behind it.) The B wings or other bombers you use work well as like Senza said the AI is quite dense and does not learn. The SSD will concentrate on enemy units in site or proceed to your space station if you are defending, have the bombers swarm the SSD to hit it's hardpoints and any fighters you have fly cover for the SSDs complement of fighters which are launched one at a time and can be dealt with easily. While the SSD is occupied with the fighters and bombers race the gunships in behind it and start unleashing salvos of missiles on the back hardpoints, don't worry if it pivots just stay behind it and hammer away and it will either flee or die eventually.

Now as to using the SSDs, they are probably one of the best tools in game. Try sending a small ship in first preferably with fast fighters to clear the fog of war closer to the enemy on the map.(If you have a modular sensor ship it eliminates ALL fog of war so you can jump the SSD anywhere then) The best thing to do is wait a few seconds while the AI turns their fleet around to defend their shipyard(They will ALWAYS do this I assure you) once they are all facing away from your units you have two options, 1 jump the SSD right behind the enemy ships and get a few full salvos off with impunity with devastating effect or 2 jump the SSD between the two golans and target them both, then swing to deliver a broadside to either the station or the enemy fleet. Once the station is gone 2/3 of the time the enemy will retreat(I suggest having an interdictor waiting but don't power on the generators until 1 second remains on the countdown to hyperspace, you will get 9 seconds of free attacks! Then power up the gravity generators and turn them off again as you might be able to use the ploy again.)

The SSD should be thought of as a giant gun platform and used accordingly. Reveal the map, use the SSD to splinter the fleet as a wedge and then jump in support ships on the flanks to smash the enemy between your forces in a devastating crossfire. The SSD need not even really move if placed in a decisive position in an attack. In defense they are even better, turn them sideways and you have a super golan basically! With a support ships, hypevel guns and fighters you should be able to make mincemeat of any attacker.

For Sovereigns and the Eclipse use the superlaser to take out any heroes, shipyards or fleet carriers to kill the fighters in the ship before they launch.(I always recommend sending a modular frigate in first to clear the fog of war for ideal SSD positioning)

I hope my tactics are of some help.

 
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April 13, 2012, 10:13:17 PMReply #4

Offline arrum

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2012, 10:13:17 PM »
The Modular Taskforce Cruiser is awesome, it is very use full for the reasons Lord Xizer has already stated.

@Senza, Great analysis. Very use full for helping to destroy SSDs. Honestly I have have done most (but not all) of what you suggested but I generally don't get behind the SSD as I find that most of the time it is better to try a full out attack on one side of the SSD with both my fighters and capital ships while I use any missile cruisers (or what ever they are called) and anything else I have left on the other side of the SSD. I like simple most of the time, plus it can sometimes take a bit of time to get your capital ships behind the SSD. Although it works well with smaller ships. I personally tend to use smaller ships not SSDs.
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April 15, 2012, 05:03:09 PMReply #5

Offline Corey

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2012, 05:03:09 PM »
I've split off the main MTC topic into its own thread, which can be found here:
http://gutr.swrebellion.com/forums/index.php/topic,2262.msg32949.html#msg32949
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April 15, 2012, 05:03:54 PMReply #6

Offline Slornie

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2012, 05:03:54 PM »
[Reposted due to splitting the MTC posts into a new thread]

On the topic of the Executor:
ALL of those 100+ hardpoints are WEAPONS batteries.
138 weapon hardpoints in fact, plus the hangar.

I would also recommend, for those people who complain about how slow and unresponsive the ship is when manoeuvring,  that the player doesn't directly tell the SSD to attack any specific unit (it does tend to throw a bit of a fit trying to decide which guns to bring to bear).  Instead just tell the ship to move to a point within weapon range of the enemy (perhaps bring it around in stages) at which point it should automatically begin to fire.
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April 15, 2012, 07:35:39 PMReply #7

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2012, 07:35:39 PM »
It is much better to just give the SSD directions to go in rather than targets.
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April 15, 2012, 07:40:35 PMReply #8

Offline Senza

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2012, 07:40:35 PM »
What I'd probably do is if they're targeting something stupid, just tell them to attack it then immediately tell them to stop, at least that way they might reacquire a good target to attack.

May 08, 2012, 12:21:14 PMReply #9

Offline rumiks

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2012, 12:21:14 PM »
i hate ssd but i use other capital ships to bring down shields then let my bombers do the resti am amazed how much damage a x wing can do now
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May 08, 2012, 06:43:44 PMReply #10

Offline Corey

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2012, 06:43:44 PM »
Well, they do less than in vanilla.
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May 08, 2012, 07:40:43 PMReply #11

Offline Senza

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2012, 07:40:43 PM »
Yes, what Corey said. The thing is that because unlike in Vanilla where Mon Cal ships magically don't have hangars, in TR, they do, so you can get a lot more X-Wings than before!

May 08, 2012, 08:02:16 PMReply #12

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2012, 08:02:16 PM »
i hate ssd but i use other capital ships to bring down shields then let my bombers do the resti am amazed how much damage a x wing can do now

Well they are the fighters that took down two Death Stars, countless Imperial capital ships and fighters and were the basic bane of the Empire and any other enemy of the Rebellion and later NR, I'd expect them to pack a punch.
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May 09, 2012, 10:12:04 AMReply #13

Offline sebastian74

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2012, 10:12:04 AM »
I always make sure I built ioncanons to counter the large IR ( and EotH ) ships.

It takes ( about )  5 ionblasts to disable the shields on a ssd. 5 mon calamari ( and some ships to take out the fighters ) will do the rest.

The only time it does not work is when the ssd jumps in on top of the defending fleet. But usually there is time enough to take out ships escorting the ssd, and disable the shields.

It also helps to manoeuvre the mon calamari cruisers in a line on the edge of the playing field. Or make use of astroid fields to hide in / or behind.
About 5 (2 or 3  more is better ) mon calamari cruisers, some anti fighter ships, a bit of strategic placement, and usually without losing a ship all opposition is eliminated. ( Which  makes it a bit boring after a while, it wouldn't be a bad idea if the AI would not always attack in a straight line. )

I also use a single ssd to defend a strategic point. No matter how large the opposing fleet, just retreat before the ssd is 'blown to pieces', and immediately counter attack, and if needed retreat again, and counterattack, and repeat until the opposing fleet is taken out. It is a bit 'cheating' I will admit, but the AI does it also.

August 30, 2012, 04:45:46 PMReply #14

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2012, 04:45:46 PM »
Ion cannons and fighters are your best friends when SSDs come to call
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September 06, 2012, 06:48:32 PMReply #15

Offline z741

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2012, 06:48:32 PM »
i will admit the pathfinding sucks. when i know they are availavle i will fortify ALL of my outer planets especially niruan since PA has 2 of them available. i wish vengeance SSDs were available to build for them only because they ARE Jerecs design.

When one comes my way or i attack space with one i send all my fighters and bombers to hit it and let my other ships limp their way in to blast it
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September 16, 2012, 05:53:20 PMReply #16

Offline Senza

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2012, 05:53:20 PM »
Now that 2.0 is out, I honestly think that bombers are better against SSDs than they were when proton torps went through shields. The reason for this being that bombers were more suited for taking out key hard points back when they went through shields, due to the slow fire rate. Unfortunately however the SSD doesn't really care if you take off one of its turbolasers, its still got around a hundred more left, and good luck destroying all of them!

Now however they can help you in taking down shields, and while I suspect the SSDs have gotten some hull reinforcement in 2.0, they're still pretty much finished once their shields go down if your fleet isn't already in bad shape. Plus, with the increase to torpedo hull damage, bombers can now take out hardpoints much more quickly than they could pre 2.0 once the shields go down, meaning that they are still very useful.

September 29, 2012, 09:06:28 PMReply #17

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2012, 09:06:28 PM »
Despite what you said about maneuverability i'm agree with you 100% but it's not that easy to destroy a SSD. In my whole game ( 2.0 ) i just loose one executor class but not thanks to enemy fighter or that it was destroyed because the pentastar allignament attacked me with ardus kaine and both were destroyed. Honestly I see no weakness on them but it's just my opinion.
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September 30, 2012, 03:42:46 PMReply #18

Offline Senza

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2012, 03:42:46 PM »
The AI don't know how to destroy them, that's why you don't lose them. The AI just throw everything they have at you with no rhyme or reason, which is suicidal when you're engaging something like a SSD. They are extremely powerful, but if you know how to exploit their few weaknesses, it's more of a matter of when you take them down, versus if.

September 30, 2012, 08:07:38 PMReply #19

Offline z741

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Re: Super Star Destroyers and you
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2012, 08:07:38 PM »
senza is right i can take them down without a problem. the shields are a bit of a pain in the arse but once theyre down its relatively quick to kill
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