New Republic Viscount...

[m0b1us]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Viscount-class_Star_Defender

Good Idea?

Bad Idea?

Is it possible?

[capshades]

"It was noted as being commissioned in 25 ABY, shortly before the Yuuzhan Vong War began."

I think I've seen ships turned down in the past because they're from the wrong era.  Would be cool though, and balance out the SSDs.

[Corey]

Actually it wouldn't really balance out the Imperial SSDs, as if the NR had Viscounts it would be during Pellaeon's era, and by that point the Empire lacks any SSDs.

Now, for one of my favourite pastimes, quoting myself:

As for the Viscount, We had an awesome model for it that disappeared, but I don't know how worth it it would be. It would just be at the fifth era, by which time the Empire is almost completely outclassed. Pellaeon has enough problems, I think.

[m0b1us]

True, after the Black Fleet crisis, development for that size of ship for the New Republic had just begun in earnest and wasn't complete till about 6 years after the signing of the peace treaty. Though, it would be cool to fight some as the Empire during Global Conquest.

Just a thought.

[m0b1us]

Actually it wouldn't really balance out the Imperial SSDs, as if the NR had Viscounts it would be during Pellaeon's era, and by that point the Empire lacks any SSDs.

Now, for one of my favourite pastimes, quoting myself:

As for the Viscount, We had an awesome model for it that disappeared, but I don't know how worth it it would be. It would just be at the fifth era, by which time the Empire is almost completely outclassed. Pellaeon has enough problems, I think.

Like this?

http://www.moddb.com/mods/thrawns-revenge/news/the-new-republic

Win Win...

[Corey]

As I said, we had planned to have it in before (when I say we had an awesome model it means we made an awesome model, not we found one like a lot of other mods do), but the era doesn't fit well enough and it wouldn't balance out very well. Considering how old that unit list is it's surprising that it worked out as close as it did.

[m0b1us]

Still would be fun to fight against in a Global Conquest for those that are Imperial Remnant fans. I mean, by the time you get to Pellaeon, you should have a nice looking fleet consisting of 3 Star Dreadnoughts and 3 Sovereigns.

The New Republic doesn't stand a chance against those...

[Zeron]

Sure they do. The enemy player has two major choices. They can put all those ships in a single fleet, or spread them across the galaxy. If they put all the ships in a single fleet, that fleet will of course be incredibly tough. However, that leaves no Executors or Sovereigns anywhere else in the galaxy. This means that you can build fleets and take over any planet you want as long as it is not within reach of that single fleet. In effect, the enemy gains security on one portion of their empire(wherever the fleet is) while leaving the rest of the galaxy vulnerable to enemy forces. Even then the fleet is hardly unstoppable because you can only have a couple of them on the map at once. And even if you fit more than two on the map, large ships such as those suffer from some heavy path-finding issues. If your enemy can still effectively coordinate more than one of the super ships then you would have problems even if he didn't have them. And it is still entirely possible for you to concentrate all your forces on a single Executor or Sovereign and take them down no matter how many ships they have on the field. Thus it is possible to wear down this giant fleet eventually. It would be a long and hard task of course, but without challenge what is the game? If the enemy instead decides to spread them out, the singular Executors and Sovereigns become vulnerable to attack by enemy forces and on their own are not nearly as hard to take down. As well, Pellaeon does not have the ability to build either one of those on his own. This means that if any of them are taken out they are lost forever. If the NR could build Viscounts in the same era, they would be able to rebuild them as much as they wanted to. In no way would this be balanced. Not to mention that the enemy would have to keep Palpatine or whoever alive long enough to gather the money and time required to build all of these massive ships. Obviously, you will likely never see the AI do this. And if you're playing online with someone, then you allowing them enough time to gather the money and build all these ships means you are likely far on the losing path as it is. And if the AI is incompetent enough to allow you to do all this yourself unopposed, it's unlikely that they could put up a decent fight against you even with Viscounts.

[Corey]

Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that they're so iconic and/or necessary for Imperial leader diversification, we wouldn't even have the Eclipse, Executor or Sovereigns because EaW simply can't handle them pathfinding-wise.

[m0b1us]

If the NR could build Viscounts in the same era, they would be able to rebuild them as much as they wanted to.

They would only be able to build 3 as that's the limit you guys set for both the Sovereign and the Executor.

And if the AI is incompetent enough to allow you to do all this yourself unopposed, it's unlikely that they could put up a decent fight against you even with Viscounts.

 

Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that they're so iconic and/or necessary for Imperial leader diversification, we wouldn't even have the Eclipse, Executor or Sovereigns because EaW simply can't handle them pathfinding-wise.

The pathing for both ships are manageable for gameplay.

[Zeron]

Alone yes, but put two of them together and they go crazy. Three? Might as well be none. And the point is that theoretically they may only be able to have three at a time..but if you kill one they can just rebuild it. As Pellaeon you can't do the same for either your Sovereigns or Executors. So if these three Viscounts take out one of your Executors and one of your Sovereigns but they lose all three Viscounts they still have a victory. Because now you permanently only have 2 Executors and 2 Sovereigns, while they can rebuild all 3 Viscounts. Rinse, lather, and repeat. And then suddenly you have no super ships and the NR has 3 Viscounts.

[m0b1us]

That would totally depend on how many Population Units the Vicounts take up during space battles. If you have Sovereigns, guess what would automatically get destroyed once they hyperspace into combat.

As the Imperial Remnant becomes increasingly weaker throughout the Era's. It's fitting that they would have to stand in awe as the might of the New Republics new modern ships.

Epic battle should be fought between the two factions.

The sad part is the EotH is kinda taken a back seat during this Era.

[Zeron]

Well technically they can just hold the Viscounts in reserve and use their conventional forces until you are forced to fire the Sovereigns superlaser, then jump in a Viscount and take it out quickly.

And they kinda already do. Most of the later NR units are really very powerful, and while none individually are as strong as an Executor they still outstrip the IR's conventional forces. Not to mention that K-Wings and such are really good against Executors, and the later fleet carriers can carry quite a few.

I do have to agree with the part about the EotH sadly. They are a bit lacking in variety, but then we don't have the massive amount of canon ships to fall back on for them. The NR is gaining in strength throughout the eras, the IR is losing strength, and the EotH is kinda staying the same. It's pretty much like canon really.

[Corey]

This isn't really about strategy.

As the Imperial Remnant becomes increasingly weaker throughout the Era's. It's fitting that they would have to stand in awe as the might of the New Republics new modern ships.

Epic battle should be fought between the two factions.

So basically "they're already screwed so let's screw them more"? That doesn't really make any sense. Like I said, the Empire gets them when it does because they are important for reasons other than people thinking they're cool, enough that it's worth the pathfinding issues (which is not "manageable for gameplay"; humans can mitigate it by doing really roundabout stuff, but the AI doesn't know how to do that). The simple fact is that the Viscount was not made until after the important part of that era is over. The difference between it and the Bothan Assault Cruiser in this respect is that the Bothan Assault Cruiser doesn't bring the other issue baggage with it.

And a lot of your discussion ignores the fact that in Caamas Crisis, Pellaeon wouldn't actually have any SSDs, and every single one of his ships is outclassed by the New Republic's at that point.

[m0b1us]

Well technically they can just hold the Viscounts in reserve and use their conventional forces until you are forced to fire the Sovereigns superlaser, then jump in a Viscount and take it out quickly.

Which is a good tactic. Unless you place your ships to where any sort of hyperspacing in by the enemy would cause them to split their forces weakening their overall battle positions.

And they kinda already do. Most of the later NR units are really very powerful, and while none individually are as strong as an Executor they still outstrip the IR's conventional forces. Not to mention that K-Wings and such are really good against Executors, and the later fleet carriers can carry quite a few.

Yep, and there's ships to decimate those K-Wings. Lancers are great in groups for that kind of protection. Not to mention the fighters that spew from the Executors fighter bays. Tactically, with proper formation, Two Sovereigns, 3 Imperial Star Destroyers, a couple of Lancers and a couple of MTC's should be sufficient in destroying whatever the New Republic can throw at them.

So basically "they're already screwed so let's screw them more"? That doesn't really make any sense. Like I said, the Empire gets them when it does because they are important for reasons other than people thinking they're cool, enough that it's worth the pathfinding issues (which is not "manageable for gameplay"; humans can mitigate it by doing really roundabout stuff, but the AI doesn't know how to do that). The simple fact is that the Viscount was not made until after the important part of that era is over. The difference between it and the Bothan Assault Cruiser in this respect is that the Bothan Assault Cruiser doesn't bring the other issue baggage with it.

What I'm saying is you can only go so far to remain true to the details of the Star Wars Universe without sacrificing gameplay. The Game would be so much more tactically appealing if the Ne Republic had larger vessels.

And a lot of your discussion ignores the fact that in Caamas Crisis, Pellaeon wouldn't actually have any SSDs, and every single one of his ships is outclassed by the New Republic's at that point.

Just because Paelleon didn't have a SSD at his disposal during the Caamas Crisis doesn't mean that they didn't didn't exist throughout the galaxy.  

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Star_Destroyer_(Byss)

[Corey]

It's not sacrificing gameplay to refrain from giving the already superior faction an even more powerful ship, especially one that the game can't actually handle properly. It wouldn't be tactically appealing, you just like the ship. And there's no source anywhere that says that Pellaeon used any SSDs, so we're not giving them to him. This isn't a mod where we find every picture of every unnamed, unclassified ship possible and just throw it in because they could possibly have had it. There's a reason people thought they were rare and special. It was because they were rare and special. Almost all of Palpatine's fleet was destroyed anyways. And Reaper was destroyed 12 years before Viscounts existed, so no, it wasn't still around.

I'll say it again, we're not doing all of that work to add a unit that:
A) Doesn't fit the timeline,
B) Doesn't work properly within the game,
C) Does nothing to help balance; if anything, it hurts it.

[m0b1us]

And there's no source anywhere that says that Pellaeon used any SSDs, so we're not giving them to him.

He commands one though...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gilad_Pellaeon

Pellaeon, now an admiral and Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet, had not wished for power, but was up to the task of wielding it. With the Deep Core warlord forces unified, Pellaeon decided the barren, remote, and encircled area held little future for the Empire. After making overtures to the Moffs, warlords, and fortress worlds of the remaining Imperial presence in the New Territories, he moved his fleets into the Outer Rim and Mid Rim. There he offered the Imperial remnants his protection so long as they united behind his so-called "true Empire."[26][33] One of those territories he absorbed was the Pentastar Alignment, which controlled the Super Star Destroyer Reaper; Pellaeon had found his new flagship. With his fleet bolstered and a new, more vital power base, Pellaeon took the offensive, building a strong Imperial state in the Mid and Outer Rim, plus isolated territories across the galaxy.[

Well, to be truthful. The Viscount and other new New Republic warships were already under developement during this. Besides, if Delvardus' was able to produce a Super Star Destroyer during Daala's reign, why couldn't that base be used for Pallaeon's benefit after her demise?

In a Gameplay sort of way..

 

Super Star Destoyers don't necessarily have to be always 19,000 meters long. They can be larger then 3,800 meters right? And they don't always have to resemble the Executor. Right?

[Corey]

Reaper: Destroyed 13 ABY (Not 17-19)
Viscount: Commisioned 25 ABY

Caamas Document Crisis (The period that the era is actually designed to be): 19ABY

The eras don't always transition exactly from year to year, it's more from event to event. It goes from start of VBacta War, to start of Thrawn campaign, to start of Shadow Hand, to start of Daala's Knight Hammer campaigns, to start of Caamas Crisis.

Or:
Era 1: 6 ABY, right before Battle of Coruscant
<!-- Skips entire Zsinj campaign -->
Era 2: 9 ABY, Thrawn at Obroa-Skai
Era 3: 10 ABY, Operation Shadow Hand
<!-- Skips Empire Reborn,  Daala's Reunification -->
Era 4: 12 ABY, right after Tsoss Beacon Conference
<!-- Skips several years of Pellaeon consolidating forces, and Remnant/New Republic fighting -->
Era 5: 19 ABY, start of Caamas Crisis. Potential for EotH emerging as a threat, tipping point for peace or continued hostilities between Remnant and New Republic. Cuts off a few months before Yuuzhan Vong invade in 25 ABY

The era system drastically simplifies the timeline, this is why Daala has the Knight Hammer and not Gorgon, and why Pellaeon has the Chimera. Even if we did start he eras right when the leaders became the leaders, Pellaeon wouldn't get the Reaper, since he hadn't taken it from the Pentastar Alignment yet. Night Hammer almost bankrupted Delvardus, and the Remnant had been more or less driven out of the Deep Core. Again, we're not just going to do a bunch of random things based on absolutely nothing just so people can have more SSDs. I have way more problems with the Viscount than just being better than what Pellaeon can build. It'll only "improve gameplay" for the people who enjoy sitting and watching gigantic ships with horrid pathfinding.

[m0b1us]

I have way more problems with the Viscount than just being better than what Pellaeon can build.

That sucks. Oh wells...

Though, the AI currently does a great job manuevering SSD's.