Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: kucsidave on December 18, 2015, 02:22:20 PM
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All right, this... movie... was... awesome.
I am eager to read all of your oppinions, fav scenes and biggest surprizes. Discussion is free. Whom entered not regarding the spoiler warning it is their mistake.
I loved this movie. When Han died was the perfect emmotional cannonball hitting us all with hyperspace speed. Funny thing is that a hungarian movie critique foresaw it and told that he should die. But the way he died... ah, snap.
I love that J.J. kept the Han and Leia's son turning to the dark side from Lucasarts canon.
there were only 2 things I didn't liked in this movie.
1, the reason no trailer shown luke is because HE ONLY APPEARED IN 1 SCENE! and he just stood there...
2, too much syrup... Too much romantic scenes for a star wars film. At least not as forced as it was between Anakyn and Padme.
My biggest surprise? That the black armored Stormtrooper was FEMALE! HOW AWESOME!
Though... this movie still fails in the Bachdel test, but this is just nitpicking
Oh, and if you wouldn't guess from my username, I AM A MEN! This is starting to get a little awkward for hollywood and yet...
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You're actually the FIRST person I've heard liked it. Everyone else I know that's seen it said it was a huge letdown.
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Storywise the movie ripped off way too much of the old EU to call it creative freedom.
The female stormie got wookiepunched and dumped offscreen so she really was a very bland and pointless character.
The romance did feel rushed, but there was good chemistry between them and the scenes between Han/Chewie and the two newbies were genuinely enjoyable.
The Han dying thing I saw coming from the moment they did the father son thing and Ford always hated playing Han and argued to kill him off since Empire strikes back.
Kylo Ren...just annoying whiny and like that irritating spoiled kid we all know. Hated him.
The first order just seemed so bland, 2 dimensional cardboardvillains that are so iincompetent and non threatening I never saw them as cool or powerful, for the first time i found the REBELS more memorable than the imps! Their uniforms looked cheap and tacky rather than menacin.
It just felt poorly executed with more focus on special effects, capitalizing on nostalgia and some cheap comedy.
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At least tell me it wasn't just lens flare after lens flare for special effects (have to ask since it's JJ).
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At least tell me it wasn't just lens flare after lens flare for special effects (have to ask since it's JJ).
Suprisingly there actually wasn't any lens flare that I can remember
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Suprisingly there actually wasn't any lens flare that I can remember
At least the man has learned how to produce a movie!!! The first Star Trek, I REALLY like the plot actually, but MY GOD, CONSTANT LENS FLARE ON EVERYTHING just makes it sooooo much worse than it could have been.
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oh, there were plenty of lens flares, but luckily never pushed into your way. Most of them lasted max half a second, and only in the side of the screen most of the time. J.J. found his excuse to use them without anyone complaining.
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I liked it I think it was very similar plot to the original trilogy but changed slightly and I think it's a good position to build upon and with what I think episode VIII and IX will be quite good also kylo ren shuttle was weird so but the head of a lambda with massive wings is not a ship.
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I genuinely enjoyed it for a couple of reasons:
Solid continuity. Nothing in the film feels overtly arbitrary, and making judicious use of expanded universe concepts was nice.
Very little stands opposed to the "Legacy" timeline directly with plenty of room to incorporate or utilize the better parts of the old expanded universe.
Fairly good writing; dialogue is good, humour is well utilized without being overly childish or over the top, and the acting was on the whole quite solid, unlike the wooden prequels.
Plenty of fanservice without it just being a 2 hour long reel of fanservice; introduction of old characters and, in particular, the Millenium Falcon are done quite well.
Some genuine surprises; they blew up Coruscant. My inner monologue i that scene was quite simply, "Well, damn"
All the loose ends lead to interesting speculation and offer solid hooks for future films which will keep buzz alive.
It will piss off the same people who lost their minds over Mad Max.
All in all, quite pleased, even though it very much is a bit of a mix of A New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back thematically and in many of its key scenes, but I think that this film mostly serves as the setup for more creative freedom going forwards; start with the more familiar, the tried and true and then boldly go where no one has gone before, to cross my fandoms so to speak.
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I genuinely enjoyed it for a couple of reasons:
Solid continuity. Nothing in the film feels overtly arbitrary, and making judicious use of expanded universe concepts was nice.
Very little stands opposed to the "Legacy" timeline directly with plenty of room to incorporate or utilize the better parts of the old expanded universe.
Fairly good writing; dialogue is good, humour is well utilized without being overly childish or over the top, and the acting was on the whole quite solid, unlike the wooden prequels.
Plenty of fanservice without it just being a 2 hour long reel of fanservice; introduction of old characters and, in particular, the Millenium Falcon are done quite well.
Some genuine surprises; they blew up Coruscant. My inner monologue i that scene was quite simply, "Well, damn"
All the loose ends lead to interesting speculation and offer solid hooks for future films which will keep buzz alive.
It will piss off the same people who lost their minds over Mad Max.
All in all, quite pleased, even though it very much is a bit of a mix of A New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back thematically and in many of its key scenes, but I think that this film mostly serves as the setup for more creative freedom going forwards; start with the more familiar, the tried and true and then boldly go where no one has gone before, to cross my fandoms so to speak.
That was coruscant? Are you sure? I thought they said it was some other system.
It looked similar to Coruscant but there are other metropolis worlds in this universe as well. It also doesn't make sense for them to destroy what is practically the center of the galaxy as far as culture, and finance goes.
Holding Coruscant in my view of the universe is often used to legitimize a governments claim as the dominante political force in the galaxy.
But i could be wrong. Do we have any way to confirm it was coruscant that was destroyed?
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Nothing explicit, but the First Order did specify they were targeting the capital of the New Republic, and since Coruscant is the traditional capital of any galactic government and to hold it is key to legitimacy, and the planet had the typical urban design, I can't see it being anything else without some major retcon we otherwise don't know about.
And besides, the First Order quite explicitly is NOT the Empire - they seem more like a death cult rather than an organization with clear, rational objectives; a group very much centered around Vader-worship (seriously, look at the uniforms; long black cloaks, gear and kit often worn on the chest, everything's designed reminiscent of Vader).
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Nothing explicit, but the First Order did specify they were targeting the capital of the New Republic, and since Coruscant is the traditional capital of any galactic government and to hold it is key to legitimacy, and the planet had the typical urban design, I can't see it being anything else without some major retcon we otherwise don't know about.
And besides, the First Order quite explicitly is NOT the Empire - they seem more like a death cult rather than an organization with clear, rational objectives; a group very much centered around Vader-worship (seriously, look at the uniforms; long black cloaks, gear and kit often worn on the chest, everything's designed reminiscent of Vader).
I agree completely. Odd that they would worship a man who betrayed their ideals. lots of funny irony there.
Back on the coruscant issue, in none of the new canon books i have read is it indicated that the republic takes back Coruscant. After the battle of Jakku both sides called a cease fire and stayed put. It would seem Jakku isn't far from naboo form what we know thus far. Meaning that that the final furthest advance of the republic forces would be only as far as the mid rim or expansion regions. At least in this area anyway.
If they did actually blow coruscant then as you can see above there is a continuity issue. Because the impression i get is that the cease fire held for the better part of that thirty year interlude between movies.
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It's not Coruscant according to wookieepedia it's the Hosnian system which the capital planet Hosnian Prime was the New Republic's home planet and the New Republic's fleet was their aswell leaving the resistance with no reinforcements.
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If true, I feel like a "State of the Galaxy" is sort of neccessary, as the exact arrangement of things is quite vague. One the one hand, that lets the EU breath to a point while Disney sorts out what they want to keep or change, but if the situation is complex and fluid on the geopolitical framework, I'd appreciate a better handle on things. Episode I and IV start off in a very straightforwards arangement: Republic/Empire owns everything, here's a particular subject, and while I was under the impression that the New Republic owns more or less everything and the First Order is a fringe group stamping out some territory in an area where the New Republic was weak.
That being said, I did chat with my other half after the movie thinking that an interesting direction they might take (though it's not likely, but I can hope), as if the New Republic is crippled militarily, they'll need help, and maybe that's an angle to bring in the proper Imperial Remnant disgusted by the cultic, irrational nature of the First Order. Basically use the whole "How do we get the Empire to help us?" angle from the Vong Wars, and add some moral grey area for the, inevitably, darker 2nd act.
That's my wishlist anyways.
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I saw it again, and most of my complaints really melted away at that point.
Still think the CG characters are bad though.
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TL:DR: The movie was entertaining and Star Warsy, but the plot is almost as recycled as a CoD game, has no context, and is full of ass pulls and plot holes. Overall not happy with the outcome.
Going to repeating a lot of what you guys have already said.
1. My biggest gripe has to be that they recycled the Death Star plot... again! Seriously. This movie is almost literally IV all over again and that pisses me off more than anything else. They seriously couldn't think of any other way to make the villains threatening? How many times can they powercreep the Death Star before we just get a galaxy nuke?
2. Next up is the terrible world building. Who is in control of the galaxy? The republic presumably, but how much influence and power does the First Order really have And what does the citizenry think of them? If the Republic is in control of the galaxy, why are they called "the resistance"? What are they resisting? Obviously the first order, but "resistance" implies that they are the underdog. The resistance fleet is apparently two dozen X-Wings. Idk. They just did a terrible job setting up the galaxy and defining the positions of the factions.
3. Deus Ex Rey, Deus Ex R2: There are a ton of ass pulls in this movie. I don't care if BB-8 implied that R2 may have the map. It's still bs and lazy as all hell.
Those are probably the main problems I had that I can think of right now. I'll leave out smaller nitpicks but I do have one more thing to add based on what has been said.
4. Space god Poe: Some of you guys are saying you really like Poe. I don't. He gets absolutely no development. All we know is that he is some resistance hotshot overpowered pilot. His only real role in the movie is to give us somebody to care about in the fighter battle at the end of the movie. I guess he drives the plot a bit in the beginning too but honestly, he could have died in the crash landing on Jakku and nothing really would have been different.
Ok some quick nitpicks because I can't resist.
5. Where's Lando?
6. After Kylo kills Han, Rey and Finn leave from the top of the room into the tundra. Wounded Kylo somehow gets into the forest ahead of them in the correct direction that they are running in? What? He even visibly shows that his wound is slowing him down (he even punches it because apparently he is trying really hard to die but I digress). Then, after the fight, "should be dead from his wounds" Kylo is left lying in the tundra. Somehow, General Cartoon Villain (forget his name) is implied to somehow find him and rescue him and escape the planet before it explodes. However, based on what we see, the planet explodes almost immediately as our heroes escape it (for dramatic effect of course). There is no way that any of the imperials could have gotten off of the planet in time. Especially not if you have to find some nearly dead guy stranded in some random forest first.
7. If this is 30 some odd years since episode six, why the heck are we still seeing Tie Fighters and X-Wings as the main fighters? (Yes ik the answer is nostalgia). I don't care if the tie fighters apparently have two seats in them and are equipped with missiles.
Welp... Back to my Zahn books.
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Regarding Poe... I'm pretty sure he gets more lines and time on screen in this one movie than Wedge or Boba Fett got in three, yet I've never felt the need to defend my love of them, so I don't feel much need to defend liking Poe. Is he underdeveloped? Sure. How long of a movie did you want here?
I thought it was good. Not amazing, not mindblowing, but good. It hit all the right emotional notes, it was fun and entertaining all the way through, and it never insulted the audience. Is it McGuffiny? Sure. It is a rehash of IV/V? Yep. But if you expected JJ to provide you with anything original, you haven't been paying attention to his earlier work. I think this movie came out about as well as it could be expected to, given the people working on it. It is by far my favorite JJ work, though considering that most of my movie experience with him was Star Trek, I suppose that's not saying much.
Could we have used more explanation of the state of affairs? Maybe, but doing so could easily have pulled us out of the characters and what they were doing, which was clearly the focus of the narrative. Was Rey too good at everything? Perhaps, but then, Luke was able to deflect remote bolts within, as far as we can tell, minutes of starting his instruction, he's able to quite competently handle the fighting on the Death Star and the Falcon's quads when he's almost certainly never been in a firefight or used heavy weapons before, and in his very first combat mission, his very first time behind an X-Wing's controls, he's able to make an essentially impossible shot to blow the Death Star that a veteran pilot failed to make. The hero being really good at stuff is not exactly a new concept in Star Wars movies.
If you went into this movie expecting perfection, or even just something on the same level as Empire Strikes Back, you were setting yourself up for disappointment. I don't think this movie ever promised anything more than a good time with another Star Wars story and new faces, and on those counts I think it delivered. All I wanted from this movie was to enjoy watching it and not leave with a sour taste in my mouth, and I was not disappointed.
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Thinking on it some more, but I feel that most of my issues regarding the plot/setting has more to do with the fact that this is a 2 hour movie. The "New Canon" hasn't remotely caught up to this point yet, and isn't as widely dissimulated as the old EU. Furthermore, they were no doubt concerned about coming off as too much like the start of Episode 1 espousing on politics, trade relationships, crony politics and so on, so left everything inferred. I can't say I prefer that, but I also understand where they are coming from.
As much as I prefer me some good old politics, that preference shouldn't undermine which is otherwise a pretty solid character film. Even Rey's savant-ism is handled fairly well - throughout the movie she doesn't even know how she pulls off half of what she does, which is something that will no doubt be elaborated upon in the next film with Luke.
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Also, it's not so much that she's great at everything, but that she's decent at everything. When she flies the Falcon, it takes her a good minute to do so without running into the ground. Her first shots at a stormtrooper miss, after she's forgotten she has the safety on. Yes, she beats Kylo Ren, but then he isn't that well trained either, and he goes into the fight wounded. The only things she's truly brilliant at are spelunking and mechanics - which were pretty much her means of sustenance for years, so it makes perfect sense.
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So I've just seen the movie tonight. Haven't fully had time to collect my thoughts, but this is my initial reaction.
1) Very obviously drawing from the plots of previous movies.
Starting with someone (Rey) struggling to get by on a desert planet rather like Shmi/Anakin as slaves on Tatooine in Episode I, then seguing quickly into Episode IV's "catch the pigeon droid" because it has THE PLANS. The giant planet Megalaser (does it have a proper name yet?) which can apparently shoot all the planets at once from across the galaxy one-ups the Death Stars (and is somewhat reminiscent of the Galaxy Gun or Centerpoint from the old EU). Then a last ditch attempt to attack the [insert critical weakness] which combines aspects of IV (again) via X-Wing trench run plus VI's let's infiltrate and shut down the shields so they can get through (albeit sans furry critters) while also rescuing the not-princess in a corridor maze (IV again).
2) Han's death was wasted.
Yes the scene was done well with the whole father/estranged son potential reparations thing and Ren's emotional dilemma, but it just didn't hit me as I would have expected. I remember being more upset when I read Chewbacca's death for the first time in Vector Prime, or a certain elderly character's death in Harry Potter. Plus I'm disappointed they didn't manage to include a reversal of Han/Leia's classic "I love you/I know" line from V beforehand.
3) Captain Phasma was a non-entity.
Seriously, she was on screen for about two minutes all in all, so what was the point? Did she have more of a role in the original outline which ended up on the cutting room floor?
4) Everyone is awesome!
So Rey is instantly an expert with whatever she attempts. Never flown a starship before; out-flies trained TIE pilots on her first trip in the Falcon, including some nifty flying around and through crashed Star Destroyers. Never used a blaster before (seemingly?) yet can one-shot Stormtroopers after only a couple of tries. Completely untrained in the use of the Force (apart from a 30 second briefing from the ancient character that isn't Yoda) yet can withstand Ren's brain probing (including pushing back into his thoughts) and then do mind tricks on Daniel Craig Stormtrooper and then Force-summon a lightsaber against Ren's will.
Po is the greatest X-Wing pilot on the Resistance and somehow (???) manages to escape from Jakku without alerting the First Order so that he can turn up at [ancient character that isn't Yoda]'s castle just in time to save the day.
5) The Lightsaber battles.
Finn can use a lightsaber reasonably well despite (presumably) having no prior experience with such a weapon or any Force potential. Then after he gets beaten by Ren in the snowy forest Rey steps up and outbattles Ren on her first go with a lightsaber. Yes he's been injured by a blaster shot but he's shown significant Force power (freezing the blaster bolt at the beginning? That's new!) and ought to also be proficient with his treble-bladed weapon of choice. I liked the less refined (artistic) choreography vs the prequels, it definitely gave a greater sense of energy and weight to the battle.
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So overall, I definitely enjoyed myself. The movie was fast paced with a largely coherent story, and felt like Star Wars. The opening text crawl, while lacking in precise details about the state of the galaxy, does nicely leave things open for Disney and the new Story Group to fill out with new (and maybe some old) adventures.
In terms of characters I'm particularly fond of BB-8 and Rey - he is a fun and cute supporting character (the "head" can portray so much more emotion than R2) and she has great potential to develop through the rest of the trilogy as we uncover the mysteries around her past. If Ren is Leia/Han's son does that make Rey Luke's daughter? I'm interested to find out where Snoke has come from and how he came to lead the First Order: also is he a Sith?
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I felt the point of the saber choreography, which I also liked, was partly to show that none of them were particularly skilled with one yet. Ren's use throughout the movie was unrefined, often using far more force on blows than would be needed, yet despite losing I thought he still came across as more skilled than Rey - he'd already taken a blaster bolt to the gut from Chewie and a hit to his swordarm's shoulder from Finn, after having just murdered his father. Not exactly a situation that has someone fighting their best. ;)
Freezing the blaster bolt was definitely new and a welcome early surprise. I do agree with the criticism over Han's death, it didn't hit me very hard either. I think it was that you could see it coming too far in advance - the instant Han saw Ren on the bridge I knew Han was about to die. Chewie's death in Prime wasn't something you really expected until a paragraph or so before it happened - we'd spent so long with Star Wars books never killing main characters, especially not movie ones, regardless of the danger, and with Chewie you kept expecting that some miracle would happen. But the bridge scene with Ren? Even if he ends up good in the end, we all knew that wouldn't happen in the first movie. The moment that scene started, you knew how it would end, and the dialogue on Ren's side of their conversation was too purposefully ambiguous ("I know what I have to do") to make you suspect anything else would.
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Rey knowing the Force in 2 seconds was BEYOND rediculous! Not even Yoda could do that untrained. Rey and Finn are two of the most BORING characters ever! The only reason I didn't fall asleep when they were on screen, was because Han and Chewie were so friggin awesome! They better use those other 7 or 8 Knights of Ren, especially the guy with the cool looking Halberd. Kylo was ok, reminded Me of his grand daddy on screen. It was just okay... Hopefully with Abrams for the next two they'll be better. Idk though....
If I did the movie I would have had Lopito Ny'Ongo be Finn, Daisy Ridley be Kylo Ren, John Boyega be Phasma with a badass fight scene, and Adam Driver be Rey. The weapon would not be another Death Star, it be a huge factory ship that churns Star Destroyers out in like a months time. I know factory ships been used but better than Death Star III? Anyway the world wouldn't be Jakku ( aka Tatooine Jr ) it'd be Onderon! Tying in Canon with EU, and Rey would be a Beast Rider tribesman. Anyway Finn and Poe crash in wilds on Onderon, etc. etc. Kylo would be Hans daughter instead of son etc. anyway Starkiller Base has plans/supplies factory ship Han an Chewie and team blow up base... Republic Fleet makes it to reinforce the Resistance large Mon Cal/Star Destroyer battle happens Ackbar concentrates on destroying factory ship. Ok Kylo fight scene similar except Kylo wins taking Rey's left leg and wounding shoulder. Rey backs up/crawls away from Ren holding her sabre above Rey's head. Rey backs up into tree and as Ren goes to kill Rey, earth breaks open in front of them distracting Ren allowing Chewie to shoot in front of Ren knocking her back into the trees. Then Chewie rescues wounded Finn and wounded Rey. Admiral Ackbar then using the fleet blows up factory ship and First Order retreats. Similar to actual movie but with enough differences to be more interesting....
Also Maz Kanatas cantina was in an ancient Jedi temple... The Resistance and Republic are different... And Snoke is a lame name...
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Ok, I'll admit that I was maybe a bit too hard on Poe not getting development. I am eager to see what they do with him in the next two movies. However, I remain annoyed that he so much better than the other pilots. Basically the scene where he is flying at the goggles lady's palace battle where he downs like 7 tie fighters in 10 seconds and shoots some storm troopers. It was just a bit too much and broke my immersion. Maybe I'm just needlessly critical.
I'll also admit that I was a bit too hard on Rey, when you brought up the Luke comparison. Even so, she is even more over the top than he is and her talents seem unending.
As for the world setup. I'm not really asking for major political games or intrigue. IV sets up the state of the galaxy quite simply in the opening text crawl. All we needed was a few lines of dialogue somewhere explaining who is in control or something, and whether or not the First Order actually has any backing or are just some terrorist rogue imperial remnants.
I agree with Han's death feeling cheap. It was just way too obvious. The second he splits off from Chewie you know he's a goner in that scene. I know they were going for the Kylo Ren emotion and development but I think I would have rather had Han go out in a heroic sacrifice instead. Maybe that's too against his character?
I know I'm focusing a lot on the negative and while that is my overall opinion, there were some things that I did enjoy and I feel like the next two movies have enough setup to possibly do a lot better. Until they freeze finn in carbonite and then create a starkiller base precise enough to target capital ships.
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Hey, I'll be the first to say it could be better. I've simply noted a big difference between the film's reception here and its reception IRL, where I've yet to talk to a single person who has seen it and didn't at least enjoy it, even if they felt it flawed, and I somewhat suspect that among the hardcore Star Wars nerds, unless the film was a true masterpiece, a lot of us were setting ourselves up for disappointment. Yeah, the plot is paper-thin and coincidence-heavy, but then so was A New Hope's. Yeah, it's pretty much the same story, but Star Wars was never anything close to original - everything from the title crawl to the award ceremony was copied from or very strongly inspired by some other movie. Sure, the bad guys are underdeveloped, but then the Empire was simply Nazis in space - there wasn't any depth to them originally either. Even Vader had no depth - he had presence, sure, but where in A New Hope does he have any sort of character development or arc? All of that came from the next two movies.
I'm just saying, a lot of this film's flaws, the original trilogy committed first - and we forgive them. If you go into a movie looking for reasons to dislike it, you'll find them, no matter the film. Return of the Jedi is my favorite of the movies, but every single time the battle on the forest moon begins, I facepalm at the "legion of best troops" that shows absolutely no discipline or order in its reaction to an attack, doesn't even handcuff prisoners, and completely forgets about protecting its objective to individually or in small squads chase mostly-harmless furballs into the forest where they can be ambushed. It is monumentally stupid and not at all how disciplined troops behave - but it doesn't stop me from enjoying myself.
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I think they have done it right I mean if you take into account that the EU is non-canon now the only way star wars fans where going to enjoy it was by showing them something they have already seen.
If they changed the entire story they could do it better but it wouldn't of been liked by to many fans i'm sure.
That said i'm certain that if the EU was still canon and they followed one of the stories from their more fans would have more positive reviews.
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Rey knowing the Force in 2 seconds was BEYOND rediculous! Not even Yoda could do that untrained.
Says who? We know absolutely nothing about Yoda's past. Maybe some Force sensitives just have an innate understanding once they are "awakened".
In terms of the galactic scene the way I see it at the moment, without having come across any canon explanation thus far, is that the New Republic (now just referred to as the Republic?) is a major player in the galaxy possibly sharing power through an uneasy peace with a diminished Empire. The Resistance (including General Leia) has taken a similar role to Luke's Jedi splinter faction from the Legacy of the Force novels, separate from government and continuing to take the fight to extreme elements within the Empire (First Order).
EDIT: So it seems I wasn't that far off. The canon New Republic page (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Republic) on Wookieepedia has quite a nice synopsis of how the state of affairs evolved after Endor.
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Fine yes we don't know Yodas past... Which may be rectified with rumors of a Young Yoda movie possibly in the works... But it was still incredibly lame to accomplish something like that in the Force, when she basically didn't even know what the Force was 5 seconds before!
Look I admit I had incredibly high hopes for the movie, and with J. J. Abrams it's always hit or miss... ( more miss than hit imo ), so yeah I was pretty devastated with his movie. I'm hoping without him the next two will be better. Idk though the new heroes are still super boring... Guess I'll just have to look forward to Obi-Luke lol. Or maybe Rogue One will be better idk. It's just depressing to have disappointing Star Wars films... I liked Episode 3 more... Sure the originals weren't perfect ( though Empire Strikes Back is pretty damn close ) Idk I just wanted more than a slightly different Episode IV reboot idk...
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I went to see this movie and I was suprised. It didn't totally suck. Sure I still think the old EU had better stories that could have been used and that it was in no way original as advertised but still a good movie in its own right.
Many of the problem I thought it had, have already been unveiled by other (stormtrooper helmets don't filter gas, Death Star on steroids etc) so I'll skip those and point some, in my opinion, bigger flaws of the movie.
The superweapon seems to be a one shot weapon. If it gets it's power by draining the star it's orbiting which is then destroyed in the process, how can it reload? It was built on a planet if I understood correctly and planets don't move like ships that can fly to another system. It may have more than one star, like Tatooine but still doesn't seem like a weapon that can be fired once every day or so.
Destruction of the New Republic capital had few problems in my opinion. The biggest is that how are Han and the other heroes able to see it so clearly in the sky while they're not even in the same system? The capital is in the Core (but not Coruscant as I thought) and Han and the rest are somewhere in the Western Reaches, on the Mid Rim section of it according to Wookiepedia. There is no way the light from the destruction of Hosnian Prime(???) would reach them as it does in the movie. Also when the First Order fires the weapon, it's destructive force of plasma or whatever strikes within seconds to a target that is on the Core while the weapon is in the Unknown Regions. And still has enough destructive force to destroy the entire system.
Then the state of the Galaxy. Is the First Order a splinter group that has separated from the Empire or is it what the Empire has become? Why is Leia part of the Resistance and not New Republic? How did the Galactic civil war end? I have more questions but those should suffice for now. So many unanswered questions. I know they will be answered in future movies and books and such but right now I feel there are huge gaps in the story. Meaning that the storyteller group or whatever it was that had the job to make sure the new canon story is consistent, are failing in that job. Also this new canon doens't seem very interesting.
Right now it seems that the entire story after Endor is:
Rebellion wins the war, Empire survives in the Unknown Regions, New Republic lives happily for 30 years, Skywalker tries to rebuild the Jedi Order, ONE student falls, Skywalker goes into exile, First Order emerges, Resistance forms to fight First Order, the Force awakens begins.
As for the characters, some were good while other not so much.
FN-2187, a highly trained stormtrooper indoctrinated from childhood to the principles of the First Order, defects after his first mission. Somehow that doens't seem realistic.
Poe Dameron, Resistances answer to Wedge Antilles. Enough said I think.
Rey, daughter of someone important (Han and Leia or Lukes perhaps) who meets Han Solo by accident and through him discovers her destiny as something greater than a mere scavenger. I too think she learns to control her powers rather quickly.
Kylo Ren, a fallen jedi who is conflicted of his choices. The problem I have with Kylo is his birthname, Ben. Why would Han and Leia name their kid after Obi-Wan? Leia never met him and Han knew him for like a day and they didn't really see eye to eye. A rather silly thing to complain I know.
Captain Phasma, her role in this movie was not as big as I thought and it was left a bit unclear wheter she survives.
General Hux seemed like Tarkin, without his commanding presence.
Snoke, what a stupid name. Also when I saw him in the movie I immediately thought that he is Palpatine reborn. But after the movie I learned that he had in fact been modeled after an early design of Palpatine so maybe it's just a coincidence.
This became a rather long post it seems. Sorry for that.
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JJ has no concept of distances in space. In his Star Treks, this pissed me off to no end.
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After reading a bit here and there from the posts i agree with everything i have read so far ^^
It is a very good Science-Fiction Movie with a solid story but i felt that after Han got Fyn and Rey on his Ship the Star Wars feeling was lost.
Starting with these stupid Rataplatatata-i-didn't-remember-that-stupid-name. (and i don't even want to, because they were completly stupid)
Sometimes less is more, there were too many characters tried as "main" or at least important forced down the throat....
And everyone of these so called "important" characters like Maz Canada (i know it's not written that way ^^), Phasma, Snoke lacks any kind of depth.
If you would have left at least those 3 out you could have concentrated on more important things, now they are lose ends you could have avoided...
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Sometimes less is more, there were too many characters tried as "main" or at least important forced down the throat....
And everyone of these so called "important" characters like Maz Canada (i know it's not written that way ^^), Phasma, Snoke lacks any kind of depth.
If you would have left at least those 3 out you could have concentrated on more important things, now they are lose ends you could have avoided...
Just a question:
What did you knew about the emperor in episode 5 when he came in?
He is Vader's master and a bad guy. that's all. We all got to know him better only later.
Give this triology time.
Like one of my friends complained that: "Yeah, Kylo feels that han and the others landed in the planet but did not noticed Han until he shouted at him? Of course. That is bullshit"
I answered him the followind: "what about Vader and Kenobi? Vader felt him on the death star, yet couldn't save all the trouble to locate him in the falcon, let alone Ben roamed free on the death star for a good time."
The problem is with fans that a third of them loves everything just because it is his franchise and he can go into his fav. universe again, the secod third criticizes everything because it was not 100% like the original one and he/she just wanted to see that again while bringing in something "new" which is impossible. It is new or the old one. can't be both.
the last third is those who can let go of the franchise and watch a movie like it would be the first they see in that franchise.
And you have to admit it,
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Just a question:
What did you knew about the emperor in episode 5 when he came in?
Or Piett, or Ozzel, or Veers, or Boba Fett...
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Just a question:
What did you knew about the emperor in episode 5 when he came in?
He is Vader's master and a bad guy. that's all. We all got to know him better only later.
That is sort of my point:
You have time to introduce new characters and build them up.
You can mention them, but now you have half a dozen characters that feel forced in and just being introduced to be introduced.
I hope i will see more of these characters, get to know them better and i will give it time.
But right now i think there were too many characters that did serve no purpose or very little.
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Just a question:
What did you knew about the emperor in episode 5 when he came in?
He is Vader's master and a bad guy. that's all. We all got to know him better only later.
Give this triology time.
Like one of my friends complained that: "Yeah, Kylo feels that han and the others landed in the planet but did not noticed Han until he shouted at him? Of course. That is bullshit"
I answered him the followind: "what about Vader and Kenobi? Vader felt him on the death star, yet couldn't save all the trouble to locate him in the falcon, let alone Ben roamed free on the death star for a good time."
The problem is with fans that a third of them loves everything just because it is his franchise and he can go into his fav. universe again, the secod third criticizes everything because it was not 100% like the original one and he/she just wanted to see that again while bringing in something "new" which is impossible. It is new or the old one. can't be both.
the last third is those who can let go of the franchise and watch a movie like it would be the first they see in that franchise.
And you have to admit it,
Kuscidave, I listed multiple problems I had with it as a film. It is highly unoriginal story wise, nearly is an identical copy of IV, has extremely weak villains, relies heavily on the nostalgia and special effects over substance and anything actually new and worst of all has the laziest soundtrack of any of the movies. Say what you will about the prequels but at least tgey brought us memorable music like Dual of the Fates, Battle of the Heros, Grievous theme and the Order 66 piece. This one was on auto tune and insert Force theme here
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Kuscidave, I listed multiple problems I had with it as a film. It is highly unoriginal story wise, nearly is an identical copy of IV, has extremely weak villains, relies heavily on the nostalgia and special effects over substance and anything actually new and worst of all has the laziest soundtrack of any of the movies. Say what you will about the prequels but at least tgey brought us memorable music like Dual of the Fates, Battle of the Heros, Grievous theme and the Order 66 piece. This one was on auto tune and insert Force theme here
Funny thing is that the soundtrack was composed by the same person who did every single Star Wars movie, and J.J gave him free hand.
Of course it was a redone 4, this was what fans actually demanded from him. Though I agree that this was a HUGE mistake that J.J. delivered.
The villains, yeah... no... My personal problem with Kylo is the same one I had with Anakyn in the prequel triology. He whines too much...
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*shrugs* Perhaps my next viewing will diminish my enjoyment of the movie, but I somewhat doubt it. I understand most of the issues people here have with it, and even agree with many, but I still can't shake the impression that many here are judging it using a different criteria than is used on the old movies, and that the old are getting passes not granted to the new. Underdeveloped, shallow primary and secondary bad guys (particularly if viewed as individual movies rather than a trilogy)? Check. Unoriginal story? Check (except for V). No understanding of distance in space? Check (most egregiously in V).
Ironically, most people I've discussed the movie with IRL think I'm the one who is too harsh on it. ;)
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It's main problem that it treads old grounds... altogether too kriffing much. If I wanted to watch A New Hope again, I can use my DVD and watch it for free. Why do we need to watch A New Hope 2.0? It's also literally so lazy in this regard they just injected the very same soundtrack! basically "Insert Force Theme" Insert "Yoda/Theme of Love"
It is exactly like A New Hope. An astromech droid containing sensitive information for an Empire-fighting Rebellion barely escapes an attack that cripples his masters ship by Imperial forces spearheaded by the main bad guy, a Dark Jedi/Sith who wears full black and speaks behind a mask that alters his voice. The droid's original master is captured by said bad guy and the droid must come across a new master, one who is a lonely teenager on a desert world, but first the droid is temporarily captured by Jawa like creature. They meet up with a second companion and barely escape an Imperial attack on the Millennium Falcon, where they meet up with Han Solo and Chewbacca. Meanwhile, on the large, spherical battlestation belonging to the Empire that has a weapon capable of destroying planets, the bad guy interrogates the captured droid master for information. Not much later, the Empire's superweapon is fired on an enemy planet, homeworld to an important character and ally of the Rebellion. Deciding that the moment to strike is now, the Rebellion orchestrates an attack on this battlestation, involving a low altitude run with X-Wings and TIE Fighters and a weak spot that needs to be blown up. Meanwhile, an important character and father-figure to the main character is killed by an old acquaintance, ending with the main character shouting in protest. Finally the battle culminates with the destruction of the battlestation and the main bad guy's fate left ambiguous, while the heroes are celebrated on a forest world near a base that oddly resembles a temple.
Now, which movie was I talking about? IV or VII?
It billed itself as new, got rid of existing canon for "Creative Freedom" then did NOTHING with it!
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I agree. Plot was a complete rehash of New Hope. Somehow, that didn't ruin it for me the way it did for you, and I'm sorry it did. :( I never expected originality from JJ, so it didn't bother me that there wasn't much. EDIT: If it helps, this lack of originality is my main criticism of the movie as well, and why I seem to rate it a point or so below most of the people I know IRL, why I deem the movie to be "good" rather than "great". Your grading scale just seems to give originality more weight than mine. ;)
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Liking all the opinions so far, I thoroughly enjoyed the film overall, I didn't like the copying of Episode IV a lot, but I'd say it was done pretty well for copying that movie. I don't see how the ENTIRE New Republic fleet was destroyed on the Hosnian System however, must have been pretty small. I have a feeling the Imperial Remnant may show up at some point, but in what form I have no clue. Can't wait for further entries, as after, this was only the beginning. What are your guy's thoughts on what will happen in the plot next? Personally I think the IR is going to show up at some point (yay for the team), and a lot of interest in the Unknown Regions is curious.....
I got a few little bits of proof with me as well - The theory on Snoke revealed.
http://geeknation.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-supreme-leader-snokes-identity-revealed-spoilers/
http://collider.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-supreme-leader-snoke-theories-andy-serkis/
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I don't see how the ENTIRE New Republic fleet was destroyed on the Hosnian System however, must have been pretty small. I have a feeling the Imperial Remnant may show up at some point, but in what form I have no clue.
It seems, according to what I've read on Wookiepedia, that in this storyline the NR disarmed almost completely after peace with the remains of the Empire was formed, and those remains went off into the Unknown Regions and ended up eventually returning in the form of the First Order. So the First Order effectively is this storyline's version of the IR.
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I understand most of the issues people here have with it, and even agree with many, but I still can't shake the impression that many here are judging it using a different criteria than is used on the old movies, and that the old are getting passes not granted to the new.
Funny thing, i talked with a few friends of mine about the movie and the exact same thing came up.
We all agreed, if we were to watch the old movies 4-6 again we would probably tear it apart as much as Episode 7.
For example the convenient Weakness in the Death Star, just sending out 10 Tie's even though you have thousands on the Death Star.
The Millenium Falcon ex machina at the end, the unnecessary trench run (Why it's space just go in right above it ^^)
But we also all agreed J.J. delivered a good Sci-Fi Movie!
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I wouldn't call it good sci-fi, but that's because I don't see the movies as sci-fi (the EU sometimes qualifies). A fun bit of space fantasy, though? Definitely.
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I agree that there are some very large grading curves going on here.
I'm one of those people who never really forgave Disney for killing the EU and was expecting this movie to justify that decision. As such, I'm part of the group that had hopelessly high hopes and expectations for this movie and admittedly would likely never have been satisfied.
Some of my friends who have seen the movie and are more casual fans and or people who never ventured into the EU seem to have enjoyed it much more than I did. My sister went in with very low expectations and really liked the movie, even while admitting a lot of the flaws that we pointed out.
While the movie has plenty of problems that can be picked apart by those who are looking, some people are more willing to just roll with things and try to enjoy themselves. It's a pretty interesting bit of psychology.
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I wouldn't call it good sci-fi, but that's because I don't see the movies as sci-fi (the EU sometimes qualifies). A fun bit of space fantasy, though? Definitely.
Mhh i think i would have to rewatch it, to see wether i would give it the Space-Fantasy Quality Stamp of the Old Star Wars ^^
It was more fantasy with them going back to the "The force sorrounds us" stuff instead of the Midi-chlorians...
So in that aspect definitly Fantasy.
It's a gray area but i guess Star Wars in general does fit more to Space-Fantasy in comparison to other Sci-Fi Movies ^^
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I watched the whole movie. It was amazing, epic and a bit of a tearjerker, especially with Han Solo dying at the hands of his own son. I did admit, I had a good laugh when it comes to Kylo's temper tantrums.
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So I've been reading through the 100 page long Force Awakens thread over on another forum I frequent and came across this. Quite interesting theory:
Theory making the rounds that would basically means the First Order was even smarter than we suspected, and the Resistance's win even costlier than losing Han.
So, in Clone Wars we learn that as part of making their lightsabers, jedi travel to the ice planet of Illum to obtain the kyber crystals used as the focal point of the lightsaber. These crystals are not unique to Illum (they're found on Lothal and a few other locations), but it's the primary source. In other sources (part of the new canon), we learn that a very large kyber crystal was used as part of constructing the Death Star to focus the superlaser.
Now. If one overlay the new canon map over the old EU maps, two things appear.
First, all planets that appear on both match fairly closely to very closely to their original location.
Second, the location marked "Starkiller base's original location" is nowhere near any planet on the old EU map.
Except one, which it matches perfectly. Illum.
Starkiller base, of course, is an ice world that hosts a superweapon that would probably have had a very big use for kyber crystals.
So it's very possible that the First Order were even smarter than suspected in carving out their weapon out of a planet by carving out a planet full of death-beam-focusing crystals,. And that the Resistance, in destroying Starkiller base, also destroyed one of the most sacred sites of the old jedi order, and the largest source of lightsaber crystals.
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That's an interesting theory and it makes a bit of sense.
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While I'd love to consider that to be possible, I have zero confidence that JJ and co. put that level of forethought into the Starkiller Base.
I like the movie, but I'm not going to try and figure out ways to make it smarter than it was.
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While I'd love to consider that to be possible, I have zero confidence that JJ and co. put that level of forethought into the Starkiller Base.
I like the movie, but I'm not going to try and figure out ways to make it smarter than it was.
I agree 100%
It is a nice theory, but that's it: A theory.
Just like the Theory i heard that Max von Sydow actually played an aged Boba Fett at the beginning....