Thrawn's Revenge

Mod & Network News => News & Updates => Topic started by: Corey on February 19, 2015, 08:15:48 PM

Title: Realignment
Post by: Corey on February 19, 2015, 08:15:48 PM
Changes to the Pentastar Alignment, and some new directions for 2.2



With the first release of Ascendancy available, I've started to shift some of my focus back to ICW and getting 2.2 off the ground. Since doing so, I've made a few shifts to the plans for that release. In the previous update (http://thrawnsrevenge.com/forums/index.php?topic=5018.0), we explained a few of the major focuses for the upcoming version.

...Realignment...

The most drastic changes related to the four playable factions in 2.2 have to do with the Pentastar Alignment; for the last few versions, while they have had some interesting aspects they've lacked some of the feeling of cohesion other factions had, and the plan with this release is to address that. The initial plan for unit expansion in the Alignment was to use the Corporate Sector Authority as sort of an unofficial ally for them, and expand their content using CSA assets. However, despite the appeal of the corporate ties aspect, the fact that the CSA was usually under Zsinj's direct control makes this a bit problematic and not ideal. So while we still keep access to the CSA units for the Alignment when you control the CSA worlds (and extend the same privelages to Zsinj), we're also expanding the core roster for the Alignment as well:

New Units: Gladiator, Procursator, Secutor, Bellator.

Most of these ships have pretty self-explanatory frigate-cruiser-capital carrier roles, which ties into the "obscure Imperial ships with a focus on fighters" motif the PA currently has. The only outlier is the Bellator, as an SSD, which will be available in eras 3+ on Kuat and Fondor. We're mostly happy with the current SSD setup for the Pentastar Alignment, where they get two at the start and have to make them last, however we felt they could use a bit more firepower as the game goes on, and a better incentive to progress eras.

...An Empire Divided, A Galaxy At War...

As it says in the previous update, one of our initial plans was to create a GCW galactic conquest in 2.2, however on further review we feel our efforts would be better spent elsewhere; art assets would be better directed at fleshing out the factions as they currently exist, where necessary, instead of creating several units for a single-use GC. With the defreezer seeming to be funtioning without any issues, instead of creating a scenario that ultimately would end up fairly similar to those in the base game, we can use that time to create scenarios which can take advantage of more planets or more active factions.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Pentastar Enforcer on February 19, 2015, 10:57:31 PM
Sounds good. Pentastar Alignment could always use more help, despite being an awesome faction.

Can't wait for more updates, thanks Corey and the team!
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: tlmiller on February 20, 2015, 08:26:02 AM
Bellator is one of my favorite Dreadnoughts, awesome.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Lord Xizer on February 20, 2015, 10:43:08 AM
I take it the Bellator will be a lighter version of the SSDs now. Less weaponry and armor?
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Thrawnizator on February 20, 2015, 12:37:54 PM
Yay, great news.  I don't care about exact 'canon' details as long as gameplay is enjoyable.

Bellator is [or one of] coolest dreadnought(s) of pre-Legacy era. Finally there will be much more incentive to reach Kuat from PA point of view. I'm really happy as I was championing the bid for more muscles for PA after conquering Kuat.

Can't wait.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: tlmiller on February 20, 2015, 01:34:54 PM
I take it the Bellator will be a lighter version of the SSDs now. Less weaponry and armor?

Bellator is a "fast" Dreadnought.  It is the cousin of the Mandator III, but whereas the III was scaled up to 12 KM to become a true fleet centerpiece much like a slightly shortened Executor, the Bellator was actually reduced in size to 7.2 KM and was made to more of an overgrown multipurpose ship.  It was designed to be significantly faster and more maneuverable than any other star dreadnoughts, so that in real universe it would actually be capable of deploying tactics rather than being the focal point of an attack because it's so slow to maneuver.

With the Sovereign, these are my favorite star dreadnoughts with the Vengeance class just slightly behind.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: heisenberg on February 21, 2015, 10:33:53 PM
Will there be a Battle of Endor GC scenario? Really missing the OT characters/era.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Guderian on February 24, 2015, 10:49:49 AM
I do love the sound of this.
New Star-Destroyers is always a good thing :)
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Lord Xizer on February 24, 2015, 02:57:53 PM
Any chance on getting the PA Logo on some of the Ship Models?
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: tlmiller on February 24, 2015, 04:47:14 PM
Any chance on getting the PA Logo on some of the Ship Models?

I imagine if they're going to be the only faction using it, the Bellator could have them.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Vulcanus on February 25, 2015, 05:29:58 AM
New Imp ship are always nice, but the one I'd really like to see in the mod is the Dauntless-class. By the start of the mod's timeline in 6 ABY the New Republic had essentially cleaned the southern part of the Galaxy with brute power rather than some imaginary plot bunnies that only appear in this message board's Imperial fanboys' dreams.
Maybe the Dauntless played a part in that? It is a shame that the Empire starts all the first era GC's with overwhelming edge in firepower, not to mention the supposedly buried Lusankya, when the EGtW tells us of the New Republic conquering Kashyyyk, Denon and the entire Southern portion of the Galaxy in "brutal" battles where they dominated the Imps.

Keeping Lucy buried until the NR can conquer Coruscant would help a lot in depicting the strategic situation in the Galaxy more accurately, as would making changes to the GC maps to include more NR strongholds like Elom, Zeltros, Sarka, Vulpter, Lantillies, Contruum and Iktotch as well as increase the strategic value of Brentaal that is non-existent in some of the GCs where it is isolated instead of being the enormously important strategic chokepoint it is in-universe.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Lord Xizer on February 25, 2015, 12:05:14 PM
New Imp ship are always nice, but the one I'd really like to see in the mod is the Dauntless-class. By the start of the mod's timeline in 6 ABY the New Republic had essentially cleaned the southern part of the Galaxy with brute power rather than some imaginary plot bunnies that only appear in this message board's Imperial fanboys' dreams.
Maybe the Dauntless played a part in that? It is a shame that the Empire starts all the first era GC's with overwhelming edge in firepower, not to mention the supposedly buried Lusankya, when the EGtW tells us of the New Republic conquering Kashyyyk, Denon and the entire Southern portion of the Galaxy in "brutal" battles where they dominated the Imps.

Keeping Lucy buried until the NR can conquer Coruscant would help a lot in depicting the strategic situation in the Galaxy more accurately, as would making changes to the GC maps to include more NR strongholds like Elom, Zeltros, Sarka, Vulpter, Lantillies, Contruum and Iktotch as well as increase the strategic value of Brentaal that is non-existent in some of the GCs where it is isolated instead of being the enormously important strategic chokepoint it is in-universe.

As much as I love the Imp factions, Vulcanus does make a fair point here. It would be nice to see Nantz too.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: kucsidave on March 10, 2015, 05:03:34 PM
All right, I just red what was written here, and I have to be honest.
When I saw PA will have new ships I said "Yay, that's great" but when I saw the name Bellator I just couldn't found my words, jaws dropped to the ground...

About other matters...
As much as I love the Imp factions, Vulcanus does make a fair point here. It would be nice to see Nantz too.
Yep, I totally agree too! The IR(-as it currently is-) is too OP in Era 1. I really have a hard time to lose Issard.

Before I forget, somewhere I red an excellent solution for the Jerec autoresolve trouble. Give the Vengeance for it's captain, name Jerec a ground hero, and give him the ability to train dark Jedis at his location
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Pali on March 10, 2015, 05:26:02 PM
New Imp ship are always nice, but the one I'd really like to see in the mod is the Dauntless-class. By the start of the mod's timeline in 6 ABY the New Republic had essentially cleaned the southern part of the Galaxy with brute power rather than some imaginary plot bunnies that only appear in this message board's Imperial fanboys' dreams.
Maybe the Dauntless played a part in that? It is a shame that the Empire starts all the first era GC's with overwhelming edge in firepower, not to mention the supposedly buried Lusankya, when the EGtW tells us of the New Republic conquering Kashyyyk, Denon and the entire Southern portion of the Galaxy in "brutal" battles where they dominated the Imps.

Keeping Lucy buried until the NR can conquer Coruscant would help a lot in depicting the strategic situation in the Galaxy more accurately, as would making changes to the GC maps to include more NR strongholds like Elom, Zeltros, Sarka, Vulpter, Lantillies, Contruum and Iktotch as well as increase the strategic value of Brentaal that is non-existent in some of the GCs where it is isolated instead of being the enormously important strategic chokepoint it is in-universe.

I don't know that it's "a shame" that the IR starts with the edge it has - keep in mind that while you're right, the NR was winning victories through military power at this time, it was essentially the entire NR fleet at the time fighting with a handful of IR sector fleets, not the combined might of the Imperial Navy as a whole, which numbered 20,000+ Star Destroyers at this time.  Most of the IR Navy was busy maintaining order or being held in reserve by various Moffs/Grand Admirals/Warlords who were trying to slice out their own pieces of the pie rather than fighting the NR's advance.  That said, I wouldn't mind the Dauntless being introduced for the NR, nor a slight reworking of the map as you mention.

I really, really like the idea of the Lusankya being buried and spawning in space when Coruscant gets captured - the only problem would be that era 1 would need to be reworked a bit.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: tlmiller on March 10, 2015, 11:03:25 PM
All right, I just red what was written here, and I have to be honest.
When I saw PA will have new ships I said "Yay, that's great" but when I saw the name Bellator I just couldn't found my words, jaws dropped to the ground...

About other matters...Yep, I totally agree too! The IR(-as it currently is-) is too OP in Era 1. I really have a hard time to lose Issard.

Before I forget, somewhere I red an excellent solution for the Jerec autoresolve trouble. Give the Vengeance for it's captain, name Jerec a ground hero, and give him the ability to train dark Jedis at his location

Since Bellators definitely existed, but never really showed up in anything, it kinda makes sense.  The way Corey & Co. did the PA, the Bellator most definitely fits in more with a PA type fleet (lighter powered, but faster with more fighter screening ability) than it does with the mainline IR.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Lord Xizer on March 11, 2015, 04:21:30 AM
Indeed, the bellator fits PA strategy well
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: kucsidave on March 11, 2015, 06:24:30 PM
Keeping Lucy buried until the NR can conquer Coruscant would help a lot in depicting the strategic situation in the Galaxy more accurately...
I really, really like the idea of the Lusankya being buried and spawning in space when Coruscant gets captured - the only problem would be that era 1 would need to be reworked a bit.
I think that wouldn't simply need a remake. It would completely break the enjoyment as the IR. What I mean is you don't have to simply lose an Executor-class, but first you should also lure an opposing fraction to Coruscant, and let one of your best paying world be overtaken... Even if it would make complete sense by Lucasarts canon, it would definitely not fit the gameplay of the EaW.
Maybe that would be a cool solution for this problem that the IR starts the GC with a mission called: The siege of Coruscant, where you have to hold up the NR long enough to let the Lusankya to take off, and leave the planet, this way you feel like you have lost nothing, thinking that "hell yeah, this mod rocks!" while also increasing accuracy and giving an enjoyable mission for us.
It needs nothing fancy, just giving some basic orders to retreat to the next defense line, hold the line for some time, blah blah blah...
What do you think? am I right, or am I right?
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Vulcanus on March 12, 2015, 04:13:26 AM
I don't know that it's "a shame" that the IR starts with the edge it has - keep in mind that while you're right, the NR was winning victories through military power at this time, it was essentially the entire NR fleet at the time fighting with a handful of IR sector fleets, not the combined might of the Imperial Navy as a whole, which numbered 20,000+ Star Destroyers at this time.  Most of the IR Navy was busy maintaining order or being held in reserve by various Moffs/Grand Admirals/Warlords who were trying to slice out their own pieces of the pie rather than fighting the NR's advance.  That said, I wouldn't mind the Dauntless being introduced for the NR, nor a slight reworking of the map as you mention.

I really, really like the idea of the Lusankya being buried and spawning in space when Coruscant gets captured - the only problem would be that era 1 would need to be reworked a bit.

You really think the Imp Fleet was still 20,000+ at this point? Starting with the 25,000 at its best figure, it had lost Zsinj's fleet that was reportedly the largest in the Empire (correct me if I'm wrong, going by memory). It also lost the entire Outer Rim command from Delvardus, Harrsk and Kaine defecting as Warlords. Teradoc's strength we don't know, but it was cut off from the Empire, so no help from there. Add all the minor warlords that self-destroyed or were isolated whose power was measured in dozens of Star Destroyers each individually and you can easily cut off another thousand or two. Fortress worlds like Rothana and Gyndine were abandoned because they couldn't be defended. Everywhere individual systems and sectors declared independence, forcing much of the remaining fleet assets to remain in system patrol. In addition to that the most talented Imperial commanders had become Warlords, were assassinated or defected to the New Republic, leaving the Imps seriously lacking in leadership.

All this combined with the fact that the Empire was beaten decisively multiple times for two years before the mod's start, I find it very hard to believe that the Imperial Starfleet could at this point even muster a fleet that matched the New Republic fleet in power 1-on-1. Compared to the Thrawn and Shadow Hand campaigns when the Empire actually managed to achieve territorial gains over the NR, I would argue that the Empire was militarily the weakest in Era 1 when it kept losing all conventional military engagements against the NR.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Pali on March 12, 2015, 04:39:43 AM
You really think the Imp Fleet was still 20,000+ at this point? Starting with the 25,000 at its best figure, it had lost Zsinj's fleet that was reportedly the largest in the Empire (correct me if I'm wrong, going by memory). It also lost the entire Outer Rim command from Delvardus, Harrsk and Kaine defecting as Warlords. Teradoc's strength we don't know, but it was cut off from the Empire, so no help from there. Add all the minor warlords that self-destroyed or were isolated whose power was measured in dozens of Star Destroyers each individually and you can easily cut off another thousand or two. Fortress worlds like Rothana and Gyndine were abandoned because they couldn't be defended. Everywhere individual systems and sectors declared independence, forcing much of the remaining fleet assets to remain in system patrol. In addition to that the most talented Imperial commanders had become Warlords, were assassinated or defected to the New Republic, leaving the Imps seriously lacking in leadership.

Fair points - I was thinking regarding the SD numbers in immediately post-Endor terms, not the situation, say, 2ish years later.  The Empire (as defined by systems still responding to Coruscant's commands) would've been significantly weaker by this point, very true.  However, considering that the NR was fighting the various Warlords and splinter groups as well as the Empire under Pestage/Isard, I'd expect that the overall military match-up was still slanted significantly in the favor of the Imperials/ex-Imperials, with the breakdown in the chain of command being what really undid them as it let the NR devour them piecemeal.

Quote
All this combined with the fact that the Empire was beaten decisively multiple times for two years before the mod's start, I find it very hard to believe that the Imperial Starfleet could at this point even muster a fleet that matched the New Republic fleet in power 1-on-1. Compared to the Thrawn and Shadow Hand campaigns when the Empire actually managed to achieve territorial gains over the NR, I would argue that the Empire was militarily the weakest in Era 1 when it kept losing all conventional military engagements against the NR.

Thrawn was actually outnumbered and outgunned until picking up the Katana fleet and cloning tanks - keep in mind that his foremost objectives in Heir to the Empire and Dark Force Rising were getting crews and ships (NR controlled 3/4s of the prior Empire at this point).  That he was able to keep the NR on the defensive despite this was a testament to his strategic brilliance, not the resources he had at his command, which early on was only a handful of Star Destroyer groups.  As for Shadow Hand... well, for one, that entire campaign is poorly written with little grasp of the big picture, so it's hard to say what the overall military situation really was from a semi-realistic continuity perspective.  Yes, Coruscant falls, yes, Mon Cal is attacked, yes, it's presented as the Rebellion part two, but I've always felt that it was really the sudden rush of droid ships and superweapons out of the Deep Core catching the NR off-guard while it was still recovering from Thrawn's campaigns that allowed the gains in Shadow Hand, rather than a return to the Empire actually having more resources overall.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Lord Xizer on March 12, 2015, 07:07:03 AM
Well the main thing with SH was all tge Imp factions were united under 1 banner. Piecemeal the IR factions didn't equal the NR in firepower but together they still massively outgunned the NR due to nearly their entire economybeing ddevoted to war. Also Thrawns campaign destroyed 10% and wounded 30% of the total NR forces, that is a nightmare casualty rate. Add to this the supetweapons and the NR forces being deployedto the rim when SH eerupted from the Deep Core set the stage for the year of disasters
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Vulcanus on March 12, 2015, 08:29:08 AM
Good points about Thrawn and Shadow Hand and I don't disagree with them at all. I didn't mean that the Empire was stronger in raw military power under Thrawn or Shadow Hand, just as the NR wasn't in early post-Endor campaigns. Just observing that there is nothing to suggest that by 6 ABY the Empire had the military means to turn the tide until Thrawn arrived, and even if it still may have held the edge in numbers for a short time, it couldn't turn that into an effective force with demotivated troops, poor leadership and local troubles tying down most of the military.

For GC balancing, there should be significant reshuffling for the NR conquest of the Core to happen. I find little enjoyment playing era-advancing GCs as the Empire when you can just squash the NR in Era 1 and be done with it when there was no way that could have happened in-universe. Weakening the Imp starting fleets, adding some for the NR (+more powerful heroes with the leadership edge NR had) and changing the GC maps to allow the NR to bypass Duro, Corellia and Kuat on its way to Coruscant would help.

It would make Art of War so much sweeter for the Empire if you had to actually reclaim Coruscant as Thrawn or Palpatine instead of the entire campaign being one large clean-up operation where you only change eras to have some new units to toy with when you have already secured everything by Week 10.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Pali on March 12, 2015, 09:24:20 AM
Maybe have the NR start era 1 with Coruscant and Borleais linked up to Noquivzor, a decent fleet above Coruscant (maybe a pre-built ion cannon and Golans to make it harder for the IR to just instantly retake), and Isard starts in Lusankya above Thyferra?  Granted, after leaving Coruscant the rest of the Empire stopped listening to her orders, but we could forget that for the sake of gameplay - it's not like we could simulate the Krytos virus and the NR's bankruptcy for the time either.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Lord Xizer on March 12, 2015, 03:29:59 PM
Maybe have the NR start era 1 with Coruscant and Borleais linked up to Noquivzor, a decent fleet above Coruscant (maybe a pre-built ion cannon and Golans to make it harder for the IR to just instantly retake), and Isard starts in Lusankya above Thyferra?  Granted, after leaving Coruscant the rest of the Empire stopped listening to her orders, but we could forget that for the sake of gameplay - it's not like we could simulate the Krytos virus and the NR's bankruptcy for the time either.

I do like this idea. Also the earlier comments about NR heroes, perhaps add Nantz and buff the hero bonuses some to simulate that?
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: kucsidave on March 13, 2015, 12:07:10 PM
this is actually a good idea!
But if we're talking about heroes, may I say that the PA is still in a lack of heroes.
I think it might be a good idea to give them a TIE hunter squadron hero to further highlight it's importance in the Alignment.
I am very sad that in skirmish there are no pentastar heroes available at all, and this is because of the lack of heroes worthy of skirmish.
Out of 4 heroes 2 have SSD, so the only one worthy of space skirmish is Grant, which is not even close to enough.
I know that it is not heroes that make a fraction, but they can turn the fate of one.
It would be really nice to "link" heroes to places. like if you conquer Dathomir you get one, and so on with important planets. It would also give an importance to planets in the core as the PA.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Lord Xizer on March 13, 2015, 02:19:39 PM
It could work
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: tlmiller on March 13, 2015, 02:35:54 PM
The biggest problem is finding heros for the PA.  Since they were so little featured in anything, there's very little about them outside of the major characters.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Pali on March 13, 2015, 04:39:57 PM
It would be really nice to "link" heroes to places. like if you conquer Dathomir you get one, and so on with important planets. It would also give an importance to planets in the core as the PA.

Vulcanus's submod already does this, actually, granting the PA a number of different heroes based on taking certain locations.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Vulcanus on March 13, 2015, 05:20:35 PM
Maybe have the NR start era 1 with Coruscant and Borleais linked up to Noquivzor, a decent fleet above Coruscant (maybe a pre-built ion cannon and Golans to make it harder for the IR to just instantly retake), and Isard starts in Lusankya above Thyferra?  Granted, after leaving Coruscant the rest of the Empire stopped listening to her orders, but we could forget that for the sake of gameplay - it's not like we could simulate the Krytos virus and the NR's bankruptcy for the time either.

Or one could take it just a step backwards by having NR hold Brentaal that can be reinforced from Gyndine and the NR power base, Brentaal connected to Kuat (blocking it from IR's base) and Corulag (blocking direct path to Coruscant) as well as Champala (NR) that is connected to Noquivzor and Borleias (NR or IR), while Coruscant is blocked from Corellia by adding a NR held planet in Aargau and/or Vulpter southeast from Coruscant. In this set-up holding Coruscant would be hard for the IR and there would have to be some tough early choices made on which of the big three planets in Corellia, Kuat and Coruscant are fortified, while still giving the NR a very good chance to capture Coruscant no matter what you do as the player, setting up a challenging late-era GC for the IR.

Of course, playing as the NR, you'd still get the satisfaction of getting to liberate Coruscant.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: kucsidave on March 13, 2015, 06:07:07 PM
Vulcanus's submod already does this, actually, granting the PA a number of different heroes based on taking certain locations.
Exactly.
If we think practically the small amount of mentions kinda leave a big open space for the PA to expand.
For example there were the Storm Commando leader Crix Madine, who used Hunters, and could be easily be given to PA as both space and ground hero.
In ground he could be a bit boosted Storm Commando, while in space piloting Hunters.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Vulcanus on March 13, 2015, 06:15:56 PM
Exactly.
If we think practically the small amount of mentions kinda leave a big open space for the PA to expand.
For example there were the Storm Commando leader Crix Madine, who used Hunters, and could be easily be given to PA as both space and ground hero.
In ground he could be a bit boosted Storm Commando, while in space piloting Hunters.

Madine was New Republic all the way.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Pali on March 14, 2015, 01:30:11 AM
Madine was New Republic all the way.

And deserved a far better death than he got.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: kucsidave on March 14, 2015, 07:57:40 AM
Well, in wookiepedia they only written as Storm-commando and i assumed that he then be PA, as Ardus used them. Also there were absolutely nothing on his death.
Weird...
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Pali on March 14, 2015, 04:22:52 PM
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Crix_Madine

Madine was actually in Return of the Jedi - he gave the briefing on the ground assault for Endor.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Lord Xizer on March 14, 2015, 06:44:04 PM
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Crix_Madine

Madine was actually in Return of the Jedi - he gave the briefing on the ground assault for Endor.

He was the first film character killed in the books. Shot by Durga the Hutt
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Pali on March 14, 2015, 07:23:39 PM
He was the first film character killed in the books. Shot by Durga the Hutt

Hadn't realized that before, but you're right.  I still say he should've gotten a better end, though - Durga sucked.
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Lord Xizer on March 15, 2015, 03:44:13 AM
Hadn't realized that before, but you're right.  I still say he should've gotten a better end, though - Durga sucked.

No argument there, where's a falling Moon when you need one?
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: kucsidave on March 15, 2015, 12:43:25 PM
Maybe there was a shooting star, and Durga wished he could kill someone important...
The revenge of the plot bunnies :D
Title: Re: Realignment
Post by: Revanchist on April 13, 2015, 11:17:53 PM
Bellator . . . My dreams have come true. Now I can die in peace