Thrawn's Revenge
Ascendancy [SoaSE] => Ascendancy Discussion => Topic started by: mynameisyou on April 21, 2013, 11:44:46 AM
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I'm really looking forward to the first release so don't get my intentions wrong I just feel it's important to plan ahead. I want to get this out there. i think it's a good idea to add some smaller super star destroyers like the Assertor-class and the Bellator-class. sins is really capable of Handling super ships in fact it's practicably built around them. here some ways they can balance them for other factions.
Add the strident and Mediator and design those them self's' they do that well.
make it so you could have you buy bulwarks in three or more group if you can do that in sins.
give the new republic Bellator's the theyhad those.
you could give the empire of the hand some Battlecruisers you know nothing huge but enough to stand and fight.
post your idea's to.
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There is going to be one or two ships to fill the space between full-on SSDs and Imperial Star Destroyers, but not more than that, and they're not a focus. The initial plan for the Remnant is to use the Praetor for it, but if we add the Pentastar Alignment the Praetor will be moved to them, and we'll probably put something else in for the Remnant. Sins really isn't built around superships. There's inherent limits to them. You're only able to have one copy of one type of titan available at any time, so any other regularly buiuldable ships you want just have to be larger versions of capital ships. Since we want SSDs to be the focus of the Remnant, and therefore want more than one, we're using some fudged around research functions to put them in, but it's not conducive to having several of them.
That brings up the basic questions of faction identity and gameplay that comes with it. One of the most important goals when we've designed the mod has been making sure each faction plays differently and has an identity based on their lore, ship rosters, etc. With the Imperial Remnant, this identity is based on having one or two superships and building larger fleets around them. If we start throwing in several types of mini SSDs, that gets lost. Instead the optimal strategy becomes building mini SSDs to send off on their own instead of ISDs to support SSDs. They basically shove out all potential competition for their roles, and put the Remnant at a large advantage because they still get super ships but without their weaknesses as a faction. IT's easy enough to say "then just give the NR and EotH their own mini-SSDs" but that's just exacerbating the problem. For one thing, it defeats the purpose of faction identities and goes directly against the EotH's dislike of superships, and the NR's New Class program ideal of miniaturization. It basically turns the mod into a supership slugfest, which while its cool for about 5 minutes, the novelty soon wears off and the sacrifices to gameplay just aren't worth it. Having an inherently overpowered ship class isn't balanced by throwing another one on the other side; when you do that you may as well just cut the rest of the ship rosters for those factions. The availbility of the Sovereign and Executor for the Remnant is balanced because they require support to function, and it's something the NR and EotH are able to counter without needing their own SSDs, although the NR can choose to go that rout much later in the game.
The best way I can really summarize it is that if something being added requires the same thing to be added to the other factions in order to be balanced, it's not really balanced.
A lot of ships you're suggesting in particular also have the issues of largely lacking any relevant specifications, or filling overlapping roles as well. What's the purpose of having the Assertor when its essentially just the same role being filled as the Executor, just with visual difference? Whatever we go with to replace the Praetor would still be around the 2200 meter range.
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I know your stance on that.
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Then I'm hoping to see the Allegiance so that means the Praetor is in the Pentastar...
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Yeah, initially it'll be in the IR since it's more readily available and we're only doing the three factions for 1.0. After that though, since it'll move to the PA it'll get replaced on the Remnant. Either way, there's definitely going to be a Praetor.
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*cheers*
Well, that's one of my 4 favorite ships guaranteed in the game. I'm guessing the Venator will make it in with the Pentastar, so that'll be 2. Then if the Sovereign does somehow it'll be 3. I'm pretty sure Jerec's Vengeance won't be here, so won't hit 100%.
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I'm pretty sure Jerec's Vengeance won't be here, so won't hit 100%.
Seeing as how there's one fellow who plans to rig in a Vengeance at some point, it wouldn't be too hard to make a stackable mini-mod that replaces the Executor with the Vengeance.
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Seeing as how there's one fellow who plans to rig in a Vengeance at some point, it wouldn't be too hard to make a stackable mini-mod that replaces the Executor with the Vengeance.
Now THAT is a great idea. I'd love to do that with your mod too. I am just so OVER the Executor. It's ugly...
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I do like the Vengeance and Jerec
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*cheers*
Well, that's one of my 4 favorite ships guaranteed in the game. I'm guessing the Venator will make it in with the Pentastar, so that'll be 2. Then if the Sovereign does somehow it'll be 3. I'm pretty sure Jerec's Vengeance won't be here, so won't hit 100%.
Actually we'd likely be 4/4.
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WEEE!
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WEEE!
Agreed!
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super ships are a very big part of galactic warfare during the imperil civil war . see Ansel Hsiao's designs those deserve an appearance in star wars outside a source book. I feel like there's a way to do it and still have it balanced. sins is much better for that balancing I want to see more star wars canon ships and still have it be a good game. i trust you guys to do that, you took one of the most unbalanced games and made it great. i have complete faith in your ability to make this amazing.
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Why did you remove content from your previous post and then re-post it...? Like Corey said we want the different factions to actually play differently instead of it being a SSD/dreadnaught spam fest. We are NOT here to add every single ship that has existed in the Star Wars canon. Especially if adding the ships does not add to the actual game-play aside from the 10s of "Oh that looks cool." and require us bullshitting statistics for their class. It also doesn't help that me as well as a few other team mates think the Assertor, Bellator and Secutor (especially this) are pretty damn ugly designs. If you want to play a mod (albeit not SOASE at the moment) that shoehorns every single possible ship in there's the Alliance mod. As Corey said the only larger ship we're looking to add in at the moment would be a ~2000m ship.
Apologies if this comes across as harsh. I just want to make the point clear that we do not see fun in a bunch of big ships slugging it out. We'd rather have dynamic gameplay that comes up each faction being unique and having certain strong points that are balanced by a different aspect of another faction. Adding SSDs and that require SSDs to be added to all of the factions does not accomplish this.
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I'll explain our position on this from a gameplay perspective more then. You say you'd trust us to add it in a balnced way because of how we've handled other things, but I'd say that its the ability to handle the other things that kind of tips us off to how badly adding all of thse superships would go. It's kind of like telling an atheist that because they handle being an atheist well they'd make a fantastic Christian.
Yes, super ships did play an important role for the Imperial Remant. That's why they get them in the first place. They did not for the New Republic, who went in the direction of miniaturization for all of the ships they made except the Viscount. The Strident and Mediator came much later. The Empire of the Hand was completely opposed to superships in the first place. So if we're attempting to make unique gameplay patterns for each faction, how does it help the game to saturate it with superships which would necessarily become the focus for each faction? We know in advance that the superships are going to become the focus for the Remant and we're building the faction around it.
What "important role" does NOT mean is saturation. Just because superships provide the backbone for the Remnant does not mean you should get a ton of them at one time. When you're talking about ships in the size range of the Executor and Assertor, even the Bellator at half of their size, the differences in stats (which we'd have to make up for 2/3rd of those) are meaningless. What's the difference between 2000 Turboalasers and 3000 or 60 squadrons versus 100 when it's competing against things with 100, and the squadron releases are staggered? Really all you get is visual difference between them, which comes with its own problems. That's why we think it's worth it for us to do the Sovereign in addition to the Executor instead of just putting in more Executors. It actually does something unique.
In order for this to be balanced, it requires making the Superships need backup, and it means you can't have the same ability to split your forces the other factions have. The weakness of having 1-2 SSDs and 50-60 ISDs against 100 Mon Calamari Cruisers is that the Mon Calamari Cruisers have the ability to hit more targets at once to compensate. If you have it so you're at 4 SSDs instead, then you can hit just as many targets with more individual effectiveness, and you win basically everything.
So, once you take into consideration the fact that you need to limit superships to maybe two at a time, that the game does not allow having more than one type of buildable titan or even more than one instance of each titan type, and that once you get up to that point the ship functions are nearly indistinguishable, why do you need to add all of these different ship types? You answered that part yourself.
see Ansel Hsiao's designs those deserve an appearance in star wars outside a source book [...] I want to see more star wars canon ships and still have it be a good game
Basically, all they're there to provide at that point is variety and visual difference. That's fine to an extent, we did it in Imperial Civil War because EaW has more tools to allow for it, we had a less intensive workload, and we were going for a more narrative structure so we could play around with splitting redundant ships into different eras. This is not the case with Ascendancy.
You say we can figure out how to balance having 4-5 different supership types, and we can. I'll tell you how. We'd have to make it so getting one one of them locks out the others. That's the bottom line. We can fudge with numbers all we want, but the end result of having 4-5 SSDs flying around would look cool for about 5 minutes, and add nothing to gameplay while detracting a lot. So why would we bother adding in these redundant (there's no better word for it) ships when they not only cause gameplay problems, but add technical and workload problems as well? Sins of a Solar Empire has a specific memory limit. Once the game hits like 2gb of Ram, it minidumps. The more ship models and skins it has to load, the closer you're going to get to that limit, so while it's all well and good to say having 3-4 different ships in the same role might look good for a while, it would have a bigger negative impact on the game than the galactic freeze does in ICW, for none of the benefit that bigger maps and more active factions did for ICW. This is especially true when you're talking about ships as large Ansel's are, because the filesize for each ship is huge. We've spent a huge amount of development time to optimize each model and limit filesize to prevent the crashes. We're not going to negate that by throwing in unnecessary ships of huge filesize.
The size and detail necessary for those models impacts the workload a lot, too. For every supership we add, to do it properly is basically the same amount of work as adding 4-6 other units. It's like chosing between the Assertor and Bellator, which would be locked out of the game half the time, and half the ship roster of the Pentastar Alignment or another faction we could add instead, which actually comes with benefits to gameplay.
There have been two main goals we've had when determining the ship rosters for Ascendancy: building a unique identity for each faction, and eliminating redundancy so we have more space to add in content that actually makes a difference to how the game flows. Those are the cardinal principles of Ascendancy. Visual variety is nice, but we can get that while also adding to gameplay in a way that throwing in a bunch of SSDs simply never will.
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ok i will try to look at it from a game prospective sorry.
i still think there's a big gap between the dreadnoughts and the battle cruiser's I smaller mid sized ones like Mediator-class battle cruiser and Bellator-class dreadnought should be added in. this is also a good way to use the tech system in sins make it easier for imp players to get big ship early and have the new republic have to be smart and hold out for later when they get going .
i'm sorry if i came across as wanting big ship brawl's.
I'm trying to help but i'm not exactly good at getting my thoughts across on the internet just trying my best to be a part of the community I love.
the reason i reposted is i felt my points were not getting answered I will try to avoid doing that in the and just say so.
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i still think there's a big gap between the dreadnoughts and the battle cruiser's I smaller mid sized ones like Mediator-class battle cruiser and Bellator-class dreadnought should be added in. this is also a good way to use the tech system in sins make it easier for imp players to get big ship early and have the new republic have to be smart and hold out for later when they get going .
The entire point is that we don't want the New Republic to have bigger ships, and that we want a gap between the smaller ships and the SSDs. The New Class program and almost every single starship design done by the New Republic was based on miniaturization until the Viscount. Even the Viscount puts the New Republic at one more SSD than we wanted to add, but it's going to require a lot of sacrifices in other areas for the New Republic to get it.
There's only so many ships you can have at once in the game, and every SSD or mini SSD takes away several of the smaller ones that you could have instead. If you saturate it with supers, you barely have any smaller ships, and again, it splits the focus. Sure, there's a 10,000 meter gap between the Bellator and the Executor, but there's also a 5000 meter gap between the Bellator and the stuff it's actually fighting. There's really no utility to adding it there for the Remnant; it's better served as a Pentastar ship. We're not trying to have a sliding scale of ships here and fit one in every few thousand meters, it isn't effective and it dilutes the focus. The point shouldn't be "being smart and holding out for later" because that just proves that the focus would be getting to the big ships, which is not what we're going for.
As for the Mediator, once again, it was not made until the Vong War, and the New Republic was focused on miniaturization. Their ships actually get smaller as the game goes on, with the sole exception of the Viscount (which probably won't be built every game, since it takes a lot to get to it).
the reason i reposted is i felt my points were not getting answered I will try to avoid doing that in the and just say so.
We do appreciate feedback and dicussion, and we read everything, but don't always respond immediately. Some stuff is just a quick response and I'll get to it right away, other stuff takes more time because the response has to be longer, like my last post. I've been busy with exams/essays until today, for example, so there's some stuff I haven't been able to get around to, but reposting it doesn't make me respond any faster. At best it makes me lose track of where the posts I was going to respond to were.
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Now THAT is a great idea. I'd love to do that with your mod too. I am just so OVER the Executor. It's ugly...
Once a Vengeance is rigged in I'll certainly do that.
If you want to play a mod (albeit not SOASE at the moment) that shoehorns every single possible ship in there's the Alliance mod.
For better or worse, the Alliance mod is making it's way to Sins.
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We know, that's why he said it. And the answer is definitely worse, anybody who pretends otherwise is lying to themselves. That guy is full of shit and himself, and spends so much time attacking other mods and modders in public he's one of the few people I have no problem saying that about publically.
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Can't say I blame you for that. Everyone I know from EaW who's had to deal with the guy does not hold a positive opinion of him, to say the least.
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In response to me asking for the Bellator-class dreadnought for the IR you said it would more likely for the PA.
so i'm going to try to convince you to add them.
working it into faction identity a good way to add them in is to make it harder for the PA to get imp stars like it was in canon. you even could remove them as a buildable unit for them.
The pentastar's difference could be there inability to get regular sized cap ships only supes and stuff the size of victory's causing there mobility at full strength to be limited.
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In response to me asking for the Bellator-class dreadnought for the IR you said it would more likely for the PA.
so i'm going to try to convince you to add them.
working it into faction identity a good way to add them in is to make it harder for the PA to get imp stars like it was in canon. you even could remove them as a buildable unit for them.
The pentastar's difference could be there inability to get regular sized cap ships only supes and stuff the size of victory's causing there mobility at full strength to be limited.
this would also mean the Enforcer-class picket cruiser is more reasonable to add.
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In response to me asking for the Bellator-class dreadnought for the IR you said it would more likely for the PA.
so i'm going to try to convince you to add them.
working it into faction identity a good way to add them in is to make it harder for the PA to get imp stars like it was in canon. you even could remove them as a buildable unit for them.
The pentastar's difference could be there inability to get regular sized cap ships only supes and stuff the size of victory's causing there mobility at full strength to be limited.
The "superships" thing is already the Remnant's identity. We're not going to have the distinction between the PEntastar and Remnant be "superships" vs "more superships." The reasons we didn't want to give the Remnant more than a few at a time still stand.
Also, there's no reason to believe it was harder for the Pentastar to get ISDs, and even if it were, that would mean it's even more difficult for them to get full-on supers. The reason I said the Bellator would work more for them is because it lets us give them a semi-supership without building their faction identity around it, so they have to rely on the basic elements of their fleet instead of building it around superships, except for one really late-game exception like the NR has. Canonically, it was the Remnant proper (Thrawn and Pellaeon notwisthstanding) that were more megalomaniacal and wanted these gigantic dread weapons. Kaine was a bit more practical, and we want that represented in the PA's gameplay.
As for Enforcers, they were always going to get those.
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so how likely is it that the PA will be getting the Bellator.
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We're not even at the point where we're working on them at all, so I have no idea. All we have is a tentative unit list that's itself only a side effect of finalizing the ICW2.1 one.
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ok ;D
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The "superships" thing is already the Remnant's identity. We're not going to have the distinction between the PEntastar and Remnant be "superships" vs "more superships." The reasons we didn't want to give the Remnant more than a few at a time still stand.
Also, there's no reason to believe it was harder for the Pentastar to get ISDs, and even if it were, that would mean it's even more difficult for them to get full-on supers. The reason I said the Bellator would work more for them is because it lets us give them a semi-supership without building their faction identity around it, so they have to rely on the basic elements of their fleet instead of building it around superships, except for one really late-game exception like the NR has. Canonically, it was the Remnant proper (Thrawn and Pellaeon notwisthstanding) that were more megalomaniacal and wanted these gigantic dread weapons. Kaine was a bit more practical, and we want that represented in the PA's gameplay.
As for Enforcers, they were always going to get those.
Well said, also the PA would have had no issue getting ISDs or building them. They had Jaemus and Yaga Minor which were both capable and frequently used to build ISDs. Kaine also had the forces that followed him from Oversector Outer including 25 personal ISDIIs of Scourge Squadron. So they'd have plenty of ISDs.
I definitely agree the last thing needed is tons of SSDs. I often find the Remnants ability to build 3 plus have Isard annoying but 'thems the breaks'. Canonically the Remnant had the SSDs a lot and the mod team does a good job putting what goes where properly.
Kaine was supposed to be a tactical genius as well as a political one(evidenced by his sweeping drive of twelve victories and no defeats in the outer and mid rim conflicts of Shadow Hand) and his ability to keep other factions at bay via business, politics or threat of force. The fact his was the only Warlord faction that survived AFTER it's leader died too is an attribute to his skills. It makes sense he wouldn't use a few giant ships when he could build mid and small level ones to bolster his already potent fleet instead.
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I don't want a ton of super ships i just feel so many cool ships are missing.
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I don't want a ton of super ships i just feel so many cool ships are missing.
"Cool" is a point of view. Many of the ships you want we don't even like.
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I know you guy's don't like them but a lot of people do including myself.
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You can say that about any ship though. I'm sure lots pof people like the Victory Frigate from Battlefront, but it would serve no role here. The point of the mod is not to add as many ship classes as possible, it's to add as many as make the game more fun and which make sense on their own merits beyond just looking cool. The only reason a ship looking cool gets it in is when that comes at the expense of another uglier ship in the same role (for example, why we use the Nebula Star Destroyer instead of the Republic Star Destroyer). The Sovereign vs Eclipse in Ascendancy sort of is because of that, but there's other reasons the Sovereign makes more sense as well.
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Saying Assertor-class Star Dreadnought was an accident I did not check its size first I screwed up and no SSD's for the rebels got it.
The Bulwark's are a good implementation they could work as a damage sponge to soak up enemy fire and cover retreats especially from dreadnoughts. it would well as an extra sturdy fleet head or a heavy colony ship as it is seen going in atmosphere to evacuate I don't see why it wouldn't work in reverse as well as. giving it multiple levels would give the rebels a good way to stand up to star destroyers early to mid game without it being O.P.
the Bellator-class dreadnought is good because it is and I quote a fast battleship/battlecruiser, built to hunt destroyers and worry dreadnoughts this is too good a idea to go to waste.
Its speed is what separates it, imagine your mc90's have beat the imp 2s and secured the system then a dreadnought jumps in if it were an executor you could escape pretty easy unless it was right on top of you but the Bellator could get you.
this would make it perfect for strong hit and run strikes as an imp player. It also would be more maneuverable because of this it wouldn't need an escort as much unlike the executor it would still be better with one but the need is less.
As for the appearance you guys made mon cal ship's look good this would be a snap.
I think I bring up some good points and hope you consider.
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Also my reason for liking the Bellator. Not designed to be a huge ponderous ship like the Exector, designed to be fast and agile (as it can be) despite it's fairly huge size.
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i know that is a really cool idea i've been trying to say that for a while just didn't think it out as much, thought people would just get it.
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People have a lot of cool ideas but do they always contribute something meaningful all the time?
No, that's the point Corey's trying to make. Sure it be cool and all to have X unit here and there but this isn't the mod they envisioned it to be. They have a set plan and they're going to stick with it regardless of how "cool" your idea may be.
Also, I disagree on adding the Bellator class.
Imperial Remnant's are not about going on hit and run missions, that's more of the New Republic (though they are deviating). The Remnant has always been about big ships and hard hitting in large fleet engagements.
Maybe for the Empire of the Hand but their entire fleet lineup and focused on speedy hit and run anyways.
You only can have so many ships anyways since SoaSE's UI will only allow so many. And that the AI will go a bit crazy should you unit counter over or below what the original had. You also have to give each unit a set role for the AI to read as well I believe.
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no I meant the Bellator as a ship is a cool idea.
I know that having X unit for no reason is stupid. however it will be better if they're in and am trying to make a convincing argument. as for hit and run for IR that wouldn't be the main purpose just a cool benefit the main purpose would be having a less powerful more versatile dreadnought just like in universe.
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The Bulwark's are a good implementation they could work as a damage sponge to soak up enemy fire and cover retreats especially from dreadnoughts. it would well as an extra sturdy fleet head or a heavy colony ship as it is seen going in atmosphere to evacuate I don't see why it wouldn't work in reverse as well as. giving it multiple levels would give the rebels a good way to stand up to star destroyers early to mid game without it being O.P.
I'm not fundamentally opposed to the Bulwark, I just think it's kind of ugly and unncessary. The stats given for it in Rebellion are pretty ridiculous, the end result is essentially nothing that an MC90 doesn't already do, and the New Republic is definitely not lacking for capital ships, considering they have more than anyone else, and they don't have a problem standing up to any Remnant stuff. Bulwarks would be very late game, not early.
the Bellator-class dreadnought is good because it is and I quote a fast battleship/battlecruiser, built to hunt destroyers and worry dreadnoughts this is too good a idea to go to waste.
Its speed is what separates it, imagine your mc90's have beat the imp 2s and secured the system then a dreadnought jumps in if it were an executor you could escape pretty easy unless it was right on top of you but the Bellator could get you.
this would make it perfect for strong hit and run strikes as an imp player. It also would be more maneuverable because of this it wouldn't need an escort as much unlike the executor it would still be better with one but the need is less.
Thereby at best removing one of the few weaknesses posed by allowing the Remnant to be reliant on superships. Sure you can say you're sacrificing firepower for that speed but again, look at the disparity between what it is and what it's fighting. Bellators are about half the size/firepower of an Executor, but that still puts them miles (literally) ahead of anything they're going to be fighting. The difference in role between the Executor and Bellator at that point is still nonexistant. Even with being slightly faster than the Executor, it's not actually going to be able to catch the smaller ships or else why the hell would you ever even bother buying the Executor? Again, the power differential while large in absolute terms is meaningless in relative terms; you still just have this gigantic platform, plus you get the speed and the ability to buy more small ships.
Our argument isn't that you can't find *some* variation within supership roles, it's that the variation is at best minimal, that it ends up being overpowered, and that superships are BY NECESSITY limited in Sins. You can only have ONE Titan type that is buildable, and only ONE of those at a time. Any others we add either have to be done as regular capital ships, which has some implications for their own basic functionality, and means they become effectively spammable, or it means we have to introduce them as spawned objects for certain things (usually research).
Again, we ABSOLUTELY DO NOT want this game turning into "who can build the most supercaps" and when you add more than two types of supercaps you're significantly eating into the number of regular ships in the game, and it just looks like a cluttered, unbalanced mess. You end up with 5 superships and then you have maybe 20-30 other ships.
Also my reason for liking the Bellator. Not designed to be a huge ponderous ship like the Exector, designed to be fast and agile (as it can be) despite it's fairly huge size.
i know that is a really cool idea i've been trying to say that for a while just didn't think it out as much, thought people would just get it.
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I know that having X unit for no reason is stupid. however it will be better if they're in and am trying to make a convincing argument. as for hit and run for IR that wouldn't be the main purpose just a cool benefit the main purpose would be having a less powerful more versatile dreadnought just like in universe.
The problem is that it's the difference between fighting a Heavyweight or Middleweight UFC champion when you're a grade 5 white belt. One's a bit stronger, the other one's a bit faster, but at the end of the day the differential between the two is meaningless next to the differential between them and what they're fighting. It's pointless trying to find niche variations within SSDs when they are fulfilling exactly the same role no matter how much you adjust those individual stats. You're not going to get something more versatile with the Bellator.
No matter which way you look at it, both the Bellator and the Executor are more powerful than a Phalanx, or an MC90, or a Nebula.
No matter which way you look at it, both the Bellator and the Executor are slower than a Phalanx, or an MC90, or a Nebula.
No matter which way you look at it, both the Bellator and the Executor have more fighters than a Phalanx, or an MC90, or a Nebula.
It would be different if that size range was a bigger focus on the SW universe and by extension the mod, but it isn't. The only things within their range that they'd have to deal with are each other and the Viscount, but that's so rare that it doesn't warrant creating an extra ship class just to choose how to deal with one other type, because those are the only situations within which their differences matter.
No, that's the point Corey's trying to make. Sure it be cool and all to have X unit here and there but this isn't the mod they envisioned it to be. They have a set plan and they're going to stick with it regardless of how "cool" your idea may be.
This isn't necessarily the case, it doesn't have anything to do with having a set plan and not wanting to deviate from it. If an idea is cool, we'll use it, we do it all the time, but this has nothing to do with us just not wanting to deviate from our plan of not focusing on superships or something. A strong focus on superships like that negatively impacts the game. They necessarily become the thing around which everything is centered, and the more you add the more that becomes the case, and all you're getting out of it is something to look at which really only keeps its novelty for 5 minutes. The game does not work well with the mechanics you have to use to limit their availability, and the more of them you have the fewer other ships you have to the point that it becomes a 5 unit RTS where nobody pays any attention to the smaller ones and gravity wells and battles are just filled with them.
Trying to argue for all these niche roles between something like the Bellator and the Executor really just introduces a false choice, because at the end of the day they're doing the same thing. We only want them to have two Superships at a time, max, and the only reason we're even giving them the Sovereign and Executor instead of just two Executors is because we wanted some variation and the Sovereign at least introduces something new, while being a more recognizable ship.
If we were to add the Belator or the Assertor or some other SSD to the Remnant, it would be at the expense of either the Sovereign or the Executor, because again, we do not want more than two SSDs in play, and even if you were correct that they did different things (which again, in this context they do not) nothing has even addressed the issue of number of SSDs to be available at a time.
So, if you're only going to have two, and they aren't functionally any different, why the hell would we bother introducing a third or fourth variation?
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And that the AI will go a bit crazy should you unit counter over or below what the original had. You also have to give each unit a set role for the AI to read as well I believe.
That simply is not true. The AI will easily handle any amount of units, assuming you give them all fitting statCountTypes (this has an effect on how many of these ships an AI builds) and RoleTypes (how the AI uses the ship), as partially hinted in your second line. Having duplicates of these stats, ex. two ships with the FrigateLight statCountType, is not an issue.
So, if you're only going to have two, and they aren't functionally any different, why the hell would we bother introducing a third or fourth variation?
B-but mah ruel of cool!
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That simply is not true. The AI will easily handle any amount of units, assuming you give them all fitting statCountTypes (this has an effect on how many of these ships an AI builds) and RoleTypes (how the AI uses the ship), as partially hinted in your second line. Having duplicates of these stats, ex. two ships with the FrigateLight statCountType, is not an issue.
Hmm... I thought this was the case especially with Sacrafice of Angels, they added capital ships with the footnote (for AI) to my memory. I assumed you had to at least to fill all role types or the AI bugs out.
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the reason to add it would be to make the fans happy and like previously stated rule of cool.
as for not wanting more then two in play then add it for the PA like you said i also think you're underestimating the speed is roughly three times smaller than a executor with one more truster for its size it was after all built to hunt destroyers an easy to play with concept.
the Bellator has no canon specific armaments and thrusters so you are free to create your own to make it fit in.
as for the Bulwark i feel mc90 just die to fast underfire of big ships or multiple SD's .
i feel that the rebels need a damage sponge on a larger scale.
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Hmm... I thought this was the case especially with Sacrafice of Angels, they added capital ships with the footnote (for AI) to my memory. I assumed you had to at least to fill all role types or the AI bugs out.
That is partially true; you must have at least one ship with the statCountType/frigateRoleType of FrigateColony/Colony, FrigateScout/Scout, and FrigateSiege/Siege, and a capital ship with a colonization ability, or else the AI will choke and die. RoleTypes purely tell the AI how to use the ship in combat... However it must be stated that odd combinations of RoleTypes and statCountTypes, such as Heavy and FrigateLight, respectfully, can cause some interesting AI prioritization. A ship having squadrons also has a big impact; the AI can "see" whenever a ship has squadrons, even if it does not have a Carrier RoleType. I would also assume that the AI understands whether a capital ship has a colonization ability, seeing as how not all colonizing capitals have the COLONY RoleType.
like previously stated rule of cool.
I feel sad that I have to point out that I was being sarcastic earlier, guess I wasn't obvious enough.
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I feel sad that I have to point out that I was being sarcastic earlier, guess I wasn't obvious enough.
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that does not invalidate the rule,nor my other points.
cause its so easy to tell when someone is being sarcastic when you've never met them and can't hear their voice.
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the reason to add it would be to make the fans happy
The fans? No, I don't think so. You should not try to speak for so many people.
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as for the Bulwark i feel mc90 just die to fast underfire of big ships or multiple SD's .
i feel that the rebels need a damage sponge on a larger scale.
The New Republic doesn't really need more of a damage sponge. The New Republic has quite a bit of focus on their defensive capabilities, especially with the ridiculous amount of shielding that Mon Calamari Cruisers have. The MC90 is a very capable ship, able to take quite a beating.
The Nebula/Endurance Class Star Destroyers are a bit ridiculous when they are resistant to barrages from "small" super star destroyers like the Bellator class.
And if all else fails then you can count on the Viscount Class to tank pretty much everything, even an SSD.
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The New Republic doesn't really need more of a damage sponge. The New Republic has quite a bit of focus on their defensive capabilities, especially with the ridiculous amount of shielding that Mon Calamari Cruisers have. The MC90 is a very capable ship, able to take quite a beating.
The Nebula/Endurance Class Star Destroyers are a bit ridiculous when they are resistant to barrages from "small" super star destroyers like the Bellator class.
And if all else fails then you can count on the Viscount Class to tank pretty much everything, even an SSD.
ok one the ones you
mention are a good damage sponge yes but the bulwark is on a larger scale more on the thought of Larger SSD as for the viscount its purpose is to fight back and win the bulwarks purpose is to survive and protect others
The fans? No, I don't think so. You should not try to speak for so many people.
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Ok by the fans i ment fans with a similar opinion as for everyone else it wouldn't be a problem if done well which is the only way i've seen the TR team do any thing, not good at communicating through the written word sorry.
I'd like to apologize about earlier when i suggested adding a ton of SSD's got carried away and was not thinking of game design just love all the ships in general.
I also apologize for bothering anyone i'm trying my best to help make the game better.
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the reason to add it would be to make the fans happy and like previously stated rule of cool.
I feel sad that I have to point out that I was being sarcastic earlier, guess I wasn't obvious enough.
that does not invalidate the rule,nor my other points.
The thing is, that isn't a rule. You can make the argument that any content someone does include in something has to be cool in some way, but thinking something looks cool or liking a ship is not in itself a reason to do something. As Kalo pointed out, saying it that way puts you in the position of speaking for way more people than you actually would be, and even if I had everyone who'd ever played the mod emailing me telling me it's cool, I still wouldn't put it in unless they actually had reasons why it's good for the game. I've stated several reasons why I think it's bad for the mod, but all you keep coming back to is that it's fast and cool.
If our sole criteria was what somebody thought was cool, you can fine somebody who would say any design is cool. We'd have to add ships including, but not limited to:
-Victory Frigate Mk. II
-Mandator I
-Mandator II
-Mandator III
-Assertor
-Tartan
-Warrior
-Defender Carrier
-Republic Star Destroyer
-Agave
-Assault Frigate Mk II
-Belarus
-CC-7700
-Dauntless
-MC30c
-Proficient
-Allegiance
-Bayonet
-Assassin
-Carillion
-Eidelon
-Secutor
-Sun Crusher
-World Devastator
Etcetera. Now, obviously there are some of these that would be fine to add (and some we probably will be adding at some point) but the idea that we have to add the lot of them either because they exist or they're cool is pretty flimsy, and the game would definitely suffer from the presence of all of them simultaneously. So, the question isn't how *cool* it is, it's what does it actually bring to the table, and in bringing that to the table, what does it take off the table?
The only time the "rule of cool" becomes a thing is when there's two ships that fill the same role and there's no reason to add one over the other, and doing both would be reundant. In that case we go with whichever one we think is coolder. This was the case with the Republic getting cut for the Nebula, although I'd still argue the Nebula is the better choice for other reasons as well.
as for not wanting more then two in play then add it for the PA like you said i also think you're underestimating the speed is roughly three times smaller than a executor with one more truster for its size it was after all built to hunt destroyers an easy to play with concept.
Actually, 7.2km vs 19km. And its speed relative to the Executor is irrelevant, it would still be slower than smaller capital ships and it would fill the EXACT same role as the Executor in practice. If by "you're underestimating the speed" (which I think is a pretty weird argument to make, considering no values are given except for a description of it being faster than the notoriously slow Mandator, to which it is the successor) you mean it's faster than the conventional capital ships then I'm even more convinced it would be toxic for the mod. If my argument is that having that many SSDs becomes inherently overpowered and necessarily draws the focus of the mod entirely around them, then telling me it's okay because on this one one of the few vulnerabilities of the class is entirely removed, that does nothing to convince me it's good for the mod.
But again, I don't think that's what calling it "faster" actually means. It's only ever referred to as faster than the Mandator, which doesn't necessarily make it fast, it just makes it able to actually be used in a way that isn't stuck in one system for defense.
the Bellator has no canon specific armaments and thrusters so you are free to create your own to make it fit in.
This is a reason not to add it, not a reason to add it. Lacking information or images is usually among the top 3 reasons for us to not add any specific ship. Otherwise it's just entirely arbitrary and the second a new sourcebook comes out we have to remake huge sections of the mod because they've changed something (this happened with a lot of stuff after the EGW came out; the Nebula and Endurance had to be completely redone, for example, but luckily we'd wanted to do that anyways).
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About the rule thing that was a joke, my other points were just grasping straws. I still would like to see it maybe as a PA ship to add some variety .
With that said I just think the idea of a fast dreadnought is too good to pass up but i won't try and convince you anymore. The reason I said you're underestimating it is that it said it was built to hunt destroyers.
Anyone else who wants to contribute ideas can post here,as for me I will be leaving and trying to keep my dignity,what little I have left after saying some of the stupid stuff I did.
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You don't have to leave anywhere, you're allowed to have your dignity.
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While I would love to see the Bellator (cool factor), I don't really think it would fit very well with the PA. They already have the Preator MKII, which, while 1/2 the size, is still quite a sizeable ship. They didn't have but the 2 dreadnoughts. This would fit with a later-era IR theme, when rulers would (in theory) have realized that the big, ponderous dreadnoughts weren't working, but still wanted something that brought a gigantic amount of firepower to the board.
As far as cool factor, I'd much rather have the Bellator than the Executor personally, but of course, Executors were more common and so it makes sense to have Executors even if they are dog doodoo ugly.
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yeah it would be real nice to have the belator hint hint ;) ;) ;) ;)
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You could have the Executor available to be built at Eras 1 & 3, and the Bellator be available in the later Era instead of the Executor. Just a suggestion. As for putting them in Ascendancy, the only way I could see them added would be as two mutually exclusive Tech Trees. Either research superlaser technology (Sovreign) or research improved reactors (Bellator). That way the IR would still only be limited to 2 Dreadnought types, out of three total (They could get the Executor tech first, which would then unlock the two other trees).
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That's still 3 SSDs in the actual mod.
Lol tlmiller is the first person I've seen said the Executor was ugly.
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Yes, but you could only ever field 2 of the 3 types during the course of a game, depending on your preference.
And you're right, tlmiller is the first person I've seen to call the Executor ugly.
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You have 3 IR players.
There now the possiblity of having 3 SSDs in now in play.
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You have 3 IR players.
There now the possiblity of having 3 SSDs in now in play.
More than that truthfully. Also a frightening thought that I'm surprised only just got brought up. (Or maybe it already did lol.)
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You could have the Executor available to be built at Eras 1 & 3, and the Bellator be available in the later Era instead of the Executor. Just a suggestion. As for putting them in Ascendancy, the only way I could see them added would be as two mutually exclusive Tech Trees. Either research superlaser technology (Sovreign) or research improved reactors (Bellator). That way the IR would still only be limited to 2 Dreadnought types, out of three total (They could get the Executor tech first, which would then unlock the two other trees).
this is a good idea that's the best of both worlds however I think its better for the PA it could be an upgrade from the praetor it fits Kaine's style a more versatile less super weapony ship,rather than the eclipse.
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another reason to add it to the PA is to add more imp style ships rather than clone wars clunkers like you've said you want .
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Let's focus on getting the 3 main factions first before we care about the PA okay?
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another reason to add it to the PA is to add more imp style ships rather than clone wars clunkers like you've said you want .
But CIS "clone wars clunkers" makes SENSE for the PA as the area of the Galaxy where the PA was located is where the Trade Federation was headquartered.
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But CIS "clone wars clunkers" makes SENSE for the PA as the area of the Galaxy where the PA was located is where the Trade Federation was headquartered.
Very true, I think the Bellator is a bad idea for the PA, and a cool idea for the IR but still a waste of time and rather pointless to add. However, what happened to Corey's response to my post that he made? Did he delete it or did I just dream his response up?
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I deleted it because it was basically just reiterating something I said earlier in the thread several times.
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I blame it on the shrooms.
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The purple ringworm in phase space does a raw blink on hari kari live! I need scissors! 61!!!