Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Tyrant on June 12, 2007, 12:15:05 AM
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What's your opinion?
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Some were Recruits and some were clones.
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some were recruits some were clones. 501th Legion was made totally by Jango Fett clones and it was pure clone Legion. And then there were other clone-types. But also recruits were taken in.
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Originally they were all clones (Jango clones, and later a mix from different templates), but after the debacle on Kamino (with the 'rebel' batch of clones) i believe that the Empire will have started to phase out its cloning system. Add to this that the Empire had many training worlds, such as Carida - where people joined up and were trained as stormtroopers. And one of the points of the stormtrooper armour is that the enemy cannot tell how experienced the soldiers within are (ie clones or normal people).
Although as the years progressed the proportion of clones in the army would decrease, as the clones passed there useful fighting age (which is quicker since they have accelerated growth/aging).
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yes. And if I remember right at the time of 0BBY 501st was the only legion with clones. And only clones were in it. Perhaps all the clones were trained for that legion. And recruits were stationed to all others.
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My opinion is that maybe 75% remained clones even after. I don't think cloning ever phase out, Mainly you could produce a lot more numbers with fewer amount of credits. I would believe Palpatine's secret cloning exercises prove it never phased out.
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It wasn't phased out but the number of recruits was added.
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My opinion is that maybe 75% remained clones even after. I don't think cloning ever phase out, Mainly you could produce a lot more numbers with fewer amount of credits. I would believe Palpatine's secret cloning exercises prove it never phased out.
but by the later days, their cloning facilties must have closed and been lost - otherwise the cloning facility on Wayland wouldnt have been such an important part of Thrawn's strategy
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they did use more clones but these ones were made by arcanian micro with a new template although jango fetts template was attempted although many were recruits and all pilots were recruits i think or tie fighters would use hyperdrive engines because clones are dedicated unkike normal people
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So if they altered Jango genes, it is possible that they slowed the aging process. Seeing that there was no need for a large amount of clones a year like during the clone wars.
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All recruits. If they had any cloning facilities anywhere near the time of Yavin, then clones would have still been alive in Thrawn's time. NOT TO MENTION, that the public HATED clones after the Clone Wars. AND a few of them rebelled, which would nudge Palpatine to start switching away from clones. Clone's weren't very good peace time soldiers either.
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so no new clones, but there might be some left over from before the Clone Rebellion
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Where did you get the idea that public hated clones. They were used by Palpatine as they were loyal and they were feared. After that Kamino uprising he took samples from new templates and started more cloning facilities, so that as Kamino was not the olny one anymore there would be less risk of another uprising.
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Think about their reaction to Thrawn's clones. They were all fearing another Clone War. They were willing to do anything to stop them.
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You have to remember that Thrawn Trilogy was written many years before Clone Wars were seen and read in movies and books. There are few things that don't match up. One being that early clones went mad and had to be eradicated.
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i think that there were more clones after the Clone Rebellion on Kamino, created elsewhere using a wider range of templates, but the facilities were much smaller, and they lost the growth enhancement tech, so they grew at normal rate, probably they were destroyed rather than let them fall into Rebel hands when the Empire was in full retreat after Endor, so by the time of Thrawn, there were none left.
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Your missing the point. If the Empire had them at all, they would still have been seen and known through Thrawn's time. Thrawn would just have continued it. They didn't have them, so the revival of the clones by Thrawn was something that they hadn't seen since the Republic.
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in the new essential chronology it was said that cloning technology was lost after the death of Palpatine in DSII. So there were clones at least in 4 ABY.
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just cause they had the technology didnt mean they used them, after that Kamino incident i doubt Palpatine would have liked using clones much
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He didn't, and mostly because Clones were the Republic's symbol. The Empire tried to eliminate all traces of the Old Republic, and clones would have been included.
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But it is true that he took more templates and more cloning facilities to different locations. He wouldn't have stopped cloning troopers. If he had how he would have kept the Order and his rule?
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Since he had supreme rule, he could conscript whoever he wanted now, and do whatever he wanted with them to basically brainwash them to follow his rule
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But clones obeyed him blindly. No regret, no remorse. Recruits would question his orders and maybe even rebel.
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Yep. Plus, whenever worlds denied him conscription he could just send in some of his regular troops and kidnap some children.
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In one book he corrected his officers' failure in front of his entire squad, To state an example.
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Also..clones would never surrender. Stormtrooper's surrender multiple times in the movies, proving that they are indeed not clones.
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why wouldnt clones surrender?
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If their commanding officer says surrender they will surrender. It was Yuuzhan Vong warriors who didn't surrender.
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just because there a clone dusnt mean they have to be like the clones of kamino
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Yeah. the imperial clones were likely very different from the republic clones.
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Well of course they were altered to follow Palpatine, and have no obligation to disobey order, Like the clones from the past.
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have no obligation to disobey order, Like the clones from the past.
What do you mean by that?
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Clonetroopers followed orders from their superiors without question
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No, clonetroopers at times disobeyed direct orders, One even disobeyed a direct order from Darth Vader. While stormtroopers seeing that Fett's genes were altered were completely loyal to authority.
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The ones that disobeyed orders weren't normal clonetroopers, they were commandos or Arcs
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Not all of them, Some normal clonetroopers who worked with the Jedi, Didn't attack them on order 66.
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can you give us an example.
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like who?
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there was one who worked with clone commandos that would probably not wanna kill jedi
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do you have a name or number? Because as far as I know only clones that did not kill their Jedi ex-commanders were those commandos and even some of them killed. And those clones who were killed before they killed Jedi.
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Yeah. the imperial clones were likely very different from the republic clones.
didnt they use different cloning methods as well ?
because the Kaminoan clones the Republic used took 10 years to grow, whereas the facility that Thrawn found in Wayland was Spaarti cylinders, which seems to have allowed for much faster clone growth (even without Ysalamiri)
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propably. but without Ysalamiri those fast crown clones will come mad. Maybe that is why Kaminoans used ten years, to make them mentaly stable.
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with the Spaarti cylinders they could apparently grow stable clones in one year - although they dont have as much training and conditioning as the Kaminoan clones
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that is how I understanded it. But with the help of Ysalamiri it takes only weeks to have adult clones or maybe only days as hinted in Thrawn trilogy.
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well clones still arnt as good as normal people clones apart from arcs dont have free will
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but on the other hand, clones are highly trained, loyal, easily replaceable, dont require much pay (what are they going to spend it on), no family ties, minimum upkeep costs (no need to cater for specific dietary requirements of different species, etc)
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Yep. In my opinion clone troopers are much better than normal ones. The have been taught military tactics and skills all their life.
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And the clone officers were probably better in battlefield command than non-clone officers
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definetly.
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Of course everything about clones were altered in some way or another. Making them the ultimate killing machines with a brain.
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another thing in their favour is that they are all identical in build - so there is need for only one size uniform
and if they lose limbs or organs they can easily grow replacements..
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good point. it is easier and faster to make armor for one size than dozen different sizes
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Which would make sense if all the stormtroopers were clones, Because they all seemed to have identical height.
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they had some demands about height, you had to be over 1.8m but under 2m, if I remember right.
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Stormtroopers weren't completely loyal to the Empire at all, like they would be if they were Clones. There are multiple instances of them surrendering or even rebelling against the Empire in the books and movies. Clone trooper's were also disliked by the majority of the Empire's worlds, and completely unsuited to policing the galaxy. Not only did they lack experience to make crucial decisions, they would die far too fast to be assigned to most of the jobs Stormtroopers did.
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But people who got in the Stormtrooper Corps (which was totally different from Imperial Army that did all the policing) had to be completely loyal to emperor to get in. And being loyal doesn't mean they can't surrender. Being loyal means they won't rebel themselves. The idea that you are disloyal if you surrender was invented by Stalin in WWII. And clones could make cricial decisions if needed. How could they command the GAR with the jedis help if they couldn't?
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the Stormtroopers were on many occasions described as fanatically loyal to the Emperor - to such an extent that after his death many appeared distracted, and had less concern for their own safety/survival (This is definitely mentioned in X-Wing: Rogue Squadron, by Michael Stackpole).
Z, could a citizen (or anyone for that matter) tell the difference between a recruited stormtrooper and a cloned stormtrooper inside his armour ? The armour gives them anonymity, ensuring that the citizens dont know who or what they are dealing with. And as to the 'dying too fast' issue - that is only the case if they are grown using accelerated aging, the Empire had sufficient resources and time to allow the clones to be grown at a natural pace.
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wasn't the point of the armor (especially helmet) that nobody would recognize who they were yp against. they don't know if there is a clone or recruit.
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Their armor stood for a very many of things. One that I could think of is military dominance. Everyone knew what a stormtrooper was, and every sane person wouldn't challenge their order/attorney. It was also a psychological advantage because of in a fire fight their opponent didn't have the element of seeing their masked faces, Which made them all the more unpredictable and intimidating.
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yep. faceless enforcers of Emperor.
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The armor was mainly so that the enemy didn't know who they were up against. The best in the Empire, or a new recruit...it was impossible to tell until you were dead anyway.
But people who got in the Stormtrooper Corps (which was totally different from Imperial Army that did all the policing) had to be completely loyal to emperor to get in
Say's who? Just like any army, all they required was an interest in applying. Any loyalty is instilled in the academy.
the Stormtroopers were on many occasions described as fanatically loyal to the Emperor - to such an extent that after his death many appeared distracted, and had less concern for their own safety/survival (This is definitely mentioned in X-Wing: Rogue Squadron, by Michael Stackpole).
The Emperor used his vast force powers to instill an unbreakable sense of loyalty into any people within his...rather large reach. Once he died, the majority of them were confused about their goals and loyalty's, and a great many of them died because of it.
And clones could make cricial decisions if needed. How could they command the GAR with the jedis help if they couldn't?
They didn't. The army was run by recruited officers, and a few ARC troopers..and jedi. The problem with ARC troopers, was that they were eccentric..and considerably less loyal than the normal clone. Mindless loyalty...leads to mindless clones.
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now that's a stupid assumtion. mindless loyalty doesn't lead to mindless cloness. They were good soldiers. best in the galaxy.
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depends on your definition of 'best' - because in terms of training, they might be, but the Rebel soldiers had more motivation, and many other factions had strong forces.
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They were fodder. Comparable to Droids. The only ones worth anything were Commandos and ARCs.
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then how could the Empire survive over two decades and almost destroy rebellion if even it's best soldiers were merely "cannon fodder"?
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Quite simply...because their army was composed of human recruits. Not Clones.
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there were many clones. there would never bee enough HUMAN recruits to control the galaxy.
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When you have the whole galaxy to recruit from, yes there would. Especially when you consider that you only needed one garrison to keep control on most light planets.
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if they only needed once garrison to control some planets, why did they need over 1000000 people on the Death Star ?
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Cause it was the size of a moon, and crewed completely by military personnel? Plus, they couldn't afford to let anyone sneak aboard and sabotage something THAT expensive..eh?
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althought it is big, death star is no near as big as a planet. they would need million to guard each planet in the Galaxy.
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Um..no. They had a million cause that's how much crewing it took. You had mechanics, pilots, operators, and various other military personnel. Only a small portion were stormtroopers.
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but you still can't claim that it only took one garrison to guard a single planet. they would never have enough manpower to stop all rebell attemps.
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it depends if the planet had a small population or the garrison was accompanied by ....say some light vehicles and possibly a space fleet
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True add in some Ties and your good.
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Yeah. A garrison usually consisted of 800 stormtroopers, 30 TIE fighters and 5 TIE bombers, 10 AT-ATs, 10 AT-STs, 40 speeder bikes, 60 landspeeders, and 100 miscellaneous vehicles. (construction, cargo, maintenance, etc.) They also had a heavy armament of Turbolasers, Laser Cannons, and Shields.
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That's a whole lot a stormtroopers.
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but not enough to control a planet.
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It's plenty. Not all planets are under martial law. Rule through fear of force, remember? Who's going to be going rebelling when your planet has enough force to crush any city on the planet to pulp?
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Keeping in mind that many of the planets actually wanted to be controlled by the Empire, especially in the core worlds with human population, i'd imagine they'd be quite happy. The Rebellion didn't often venture very far coreward. Also consider the fact that not every planet was heavily populated, and some weren't even that large to begin with. Then there's also the sector fleets overhead that could easily 'take care' of any problem that occured in their area.
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That's a good point, The Rebellion conducted everything in secret anyway..If it were to happen I'm sure planetary assault would be the last thing they do. Not to mention the civilians could act with or against the Empire making the task even more seemingly improbable.
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with TIE bombers you can keep most places in order
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agreed
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and atats one is enough for some planets
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but they can?t always be operationable.
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Yes. With Imperial perfect standards they can unless you meant from damage.
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Just because the Empire had high standards didn't necessarily mean that equipment couldn't break and require replacement. The article on the Juggernaut in the NEGTV, for instance, mentioned waiting some time for replacement parts, and that was the heavy vehicle of choice for some Outer Rim garrisons.
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yep. it is a large galaxy. you can't expect to get new parts for machines immediatly. expecially when the priority is on the navy.
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Theres always backwater garrisons with no where near the supplies they should be getting
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and there's those pesky Rebels nicking stuff, hijacking shipments, and encouraging defection...
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Bloody rebels!
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I despise the rebels!