Thrawn's Revenge
Imperial Civil War [Empire at War] => Discussion, Suggestions & Feedback => Topic started by: Corey on March 28, 2012, 04:42:41 PM
-
We're planning on doing three new GCs for 2.0. The first one is the Black Fleet Crisis, the second isn't going to be discussed just yet, and we want to know what everyone wants to see for the third. It could be a canonical conflict, or just something you feel is currently missing from that mod that would be fun, so if you have any ideas, post them.
-
Oh man, I can't wait! You guys are doing a fantastic job. If you guys still need any beta testers, I'll be willing to test and play the demo. Keep up the good work guys. :]
-
Will we be able to play as the Yevetha in the Black Fleet Crisis GC?
-
How about GC centered around Daala unifying the Warlords, only instead of gassing them on an asteroid, she teams up with Pellaeon to wipe them out? The Warlords could consist of Harsk, Teradoc, Delvadarus, Cronus in 13X, and they could have the Knight Hammer, the Crimsom Command, while the player, with Daala and Pellaeon could have standard IR units. That could lead to lots of fun ISD on ISD battles...
Another option could be an EtoH-centric, Camaas Crisis-era, GC centered around the Thrawn clone taking charge and leading the EtoH to pacify the entire NR (leave the IR out of it), while the NR itself in embroiled in a bit of civil war with a faction very similar to itself (like what happened over Bothawui). Because you have the Warlords as a minor faction, the IR does get a chance to face off against other IR forces, but the NR never gets to face off against other NR forces. This could provide that opportunity.
-
I have four suggestions for a GC.
1)The Valley of the Jedi Incident with the Pentastar(represented as the IR in that GC like what was done in HfZ GC) With Kaine in the Reaper, Jerec in the Vengeance and Dark Jedi against the NR with Luke, Kyle, Mothma, Han& Chewie, and Rogue Squadron.
2)The building of the Empire of the Hand in the Unknown Regions to the amount of planets we see the EotH has in AoW.
With Thrawn, Parrk, Nirez, Fel, Stent, Siath, Hand of Judgement and Aurek Seven against the Ssi Ruuk, Pirate units and such.
4) The Deep Core Civil War in all it's fratricidal ferocity. Small scale but with a mind to tactics. For instance the three named Warlords against each other, Harrsk with his ISDs, Teradoc with his Crimson Command, and Delvardus with the Night Hammer. Each could have just three worlds with paltry resources. Each would have it's own advantage and disadvantage. Teradoc having a huge fleet, but weak ships, Harrsk being the middle ground with a medium fleet of powerful ships and Delavardus having very few ships but the most powerful command ship.
4) The Campaign against the Ssi Ruuk, similar to the Black Fleet Crisis GC, small but with the EotH and NR as playable against the Ssi Ruuk.
(I realize that each of these has it's own set of flaws that render each possibly unreasonable but that's the best I could come up with.)
-
4) The Campaign against the Ssi Ruuk, similar to the Black Fleet Crisis GC, small but with the EotH and NR as playable against the Ssi Ruuk.
That would be cool, and its set in the time frame of the mod, but of course new models would have to be made for the Ssi Ruuk and that would prolly be a lot of work. :(
As of my own suggestions I have two.
A canonical one, though not set in The New Republic Era, would be Admiral Zarin's coup attempt. The playable forces could be The Empire, Zarin's forces, and the Rebels. Thrawn could be a hero, and the addition of the Star Wing, TIE Avenger, and Missile Boat as units, as well as The Empire and Zarin having buildable the Nebulon B frigates and Correlian Corvettes.
For just fun though, how about a Thrawn's Revenge meets Civilization. You could have the entire galactic map, but each faction starts with only one planet, and the other planets could be empty or some could have pirate or warlords on them. It would be an interesting land grab at the beginning which would have to be limited in case of over stretching oneself and a careful choosing of units to build because of very limited funds at the beginning. It would also make for games being very different every time, well hopefully.
-
You have already covered the 4-19 ABY pretty well so this isn't as easy as it seems. But one possibility that comes to mind is the Post-Zsinj campaign with NR, IR and Warlord Teradoc.
-
Perhaps if the Pentastar were considered, Jerec might possibly get his flagship from Dark Forces II perhaps?
-
I really like the NR vs NR idea, thats somthing thats never really been tryed outside of skirmish mode, it would be interesting
-
I have four suggestions for a GC.
1)The Valley of the Jedi Incident with the Pentastar(represented as the IR in that GC like what was done in HfZ GC) With Kaine in the Reaper, Jerec in the Vengeance and Dark Jedi against the NR with Luke, Kyle, Mothma, Han& Chewie, and Rogue Squadron.
2)The building of the Empire of the Hand in the Unknown Regions to the amount of planets we see the EotH has in AoW.
With Thrawn, Parrk, Nirez, Fel, Stent, Siath, Hand of Judgement and Aurek Seven against the Ssi Ruuk, Pirate units and such.
4) The Deep Core Civil War in all it's fratricidal ferocity. Small scale but with a mind to tactics. For instance the three named Warlords against each other, Harrsk with his ISDs, Teradoc with his Crimson Command, and Delvardus with the Night Hammer. Each could have just three worlds with paltry resources. Each would have it's own advantage and disadvantage. Teradoc having a huge fleet, but weak ships, Harrsk being the middle ground with a medium fleet of powerful ships and Delavardus having very few ships but the most powerful command ship.
4) The Campaign against the Ssi Ruuk, similar to the Black Fleet Crisis GC, small but with the EotH and NR as playable against the Ssi Ruuk.
(I realize that each of these has it's own set of flaws that render each possibly unreasonable but that's the best I could come up with.)
There's no #3!
-
Hm I do seem to have forgotten number three...well here it is, I hope it does not disappoint
I was going to suggest a scenario one year before Fractured Empire, when the Eriadu Ascendancy was at it's height, Most of the Grand Admirals were alive and out for blood and the NR was still very fledgling. Basically when Warlordism first exploded with everyone fighting everyone in a mass bloodbath.
Factions,
IR under Pestage, Isard, Fel, Brashin, Makati, and Sinn.
Warlords under Grunger, Pitta, Delvardus, Harrsk, Teradoc, Zsinj, Kaine
NR under Mothma, Cracken, Solo, Leia, Han, Lando, Luke and Wedge
Similar to Fractured Empire but with far more under the Warlords rule with them as the main threat to both IR and NR(NR in the west outer rim, IR in the core Warlords in Midrim and Northeast and Southern Outer Rim.
The Warlords would have the majority of planets and forces but would be spread out to symbolize the fact that they were seperate(I.E. Delvardus in the South, Harrsk near the core, Pitta and Grunger along the Correllian trade route in the mid rim, Teradoc and Zsinj in the North of the galaxy's mid and outer rim and Kaine in the Northwest of the Outer Rim.
I propose about 55 planets for the GC to be divided among the factions,
NR-14
IR-16
Warlords- 25
The Warlords start with the advantage and thus force the player to have to respond accordingly.
-
That would be interesting. Would take a lot of work though I think
-
I think it would be. Say make the Warlords AI as aggressive as possible with enormous resources and turn them loose.
(If it were possible I'd suggest different AI's for each Warlord but that can't be so they must be compiled into a group.)
I arrived on the idea after reading a song of fire and ice(game of thrones book 2 a clash of kings and then looking at the SW EU and realizing it was very similar. The most violent bloodletting(except for the Imperial mutiny in 6 1/2 years after Endor actually happened in the first 2 years after the Emperor's Death.
It would take a lot of work I know but it would be very enjoyable and frantic paced.
(It would be neat if it were possible to make alliances with other factions temporarily to throw some political strategy into the war too, though I'm not much for politics it makes one have to think of all angles. though that would be impossible with the limited AI lucasarts and Petrograph bestowed on us all.
-
I don't see how that would be more difficult, the only real work would be the new heroes it took (Sien Sovv, etc) to make it fit in with the earlier time.
-
Hm, so you think it a good idea?
-
Is that a note of interest in the idea I detect?
-
Is that a note of interest in the idea I detect?
Can't speak for Corey. But it's always a good idea to entertain your fans ideas.
-
Well, there's some issues with how to distribute everything.
-
You mean planets, units, heroes or all of the aforementioned?
(incidentally Kalo what is your avatar of?)
-
For just fun though, how about a Thrawn's Revenge meets Civilization. You could have the entire galactic map, but each faction starts with only one planet, and the other planets could be empty or some could have pirate or warlords on them. It would be an interesting land grab at the beginning which would have to be limited in case of over stretching oneself and a careful choosing of units to build because of very limited funds at the beginning. It would also make for games being very different every time, well hopefully.
That would be AMAZINGLY fun, but because of the xxx-day bug, would never be able to complete it.
-
You mean planets, units, heroes or all of the aforementioned?
(incidentally Kalo what is your avatar of?)
All of the above
That would be AMAZINGLY fun, but because of the xxx-day bug, would never be able to complete it.
This would depend mainly on how big it was. I don't have exact numbers to back me up on this, but it seems to scale down pretty favourably; a GC with 50 planets and 3 factions takes far more than twice as long to hit the limit than one with 100 planets and 6 factions. Considering that so much time and effort would have to be put into the original buildup we could get away with making the GC as a whole significantly smaller than, say, Art of War, and still seem to be getting more out of it.
-
Hm, this sounds promising indeed then! A War of Three factions as aggressive and furious a bloodbath as London after Millennium came to call.
It would be interesting to put the Warlords scattered North West(Kaine and Jerec at Bastion), North East(Zsinj and Gethzeron at Dathomir, Teradoc at Bonadan), Center East(Pitta at Correllia, Grunger at Ord Pardron), Center(Harrsk at one of the Deep core worlds) and South(Delvardus at Eriadu)
This would mean a many sided war for the IR and NR with no real safe lines at the start.
-
Well the problem there is you end up with a Warlords faction which is virtually guaranteed to win against Sate Pestage/Isard/Krennal and the New Republic, unless we were to make those two more concentrated allowing for a redistribution of power. Put together Greater Maldrood, Zsinj's space (including the Corporate Sector), and the Eriadu Authority in one faction and I'm not sure what that leaves for the Remnant Proper and New Republic. Mon Calamari, at least, would be cut off entirely since they'd either have to go through Hapes, Zsinj or Teradoc to connect to anything, so we'd need to make New Republic bases centered around Sullust and Bothawui as well. The Essential Guide to Warfare includes a canon design for the Praetor, which gives us some more options for Delvardus.
As for the other GC with the single planet starts, the question there is how to distribute the forces and where to start everybody. I'd say doing a sort of gradient in the level of forces, so that the farther out from the original starts you get the harder it gets to take the planet would be fair, but I'd also like to make the starting planets of each faction not be a shipyard, either, so that would become something the player has to work towards.
-
Well, I do like the idea of a third faction with real teeth though. They would be scattered rather than concentrated to represent their separate states so to speak. The idea being a many sided war, no complete advantage for any of the three sides(the IR would hold the core) the NR would hold scattered elements of the Outer Rim and some mid rim worlds with the Warlords sandwiched in and around the other two factions.
The Warlords will actually be quite vulnerable being unable to replace heavy capital ship losses like the other factions. They will hold the initial advantage true but with time and losses the advantage will pass to the other factions. Being so scattered will keep the Warlords from forming a single mass fleet and be killed one by one as they were in the EU.
I think they could be balanced, they could be tough but not unbeatable.
-
Well, the thing is that they aren't really scattered. Zsinj and the Pentastar Alignment are right next to each other, and Greater Maldrood is only separated by Mon Cal and the Hapans, who wouldn't be there. The only disconnected element would be the Eriadu Authority.
-
Just a quick update on this, we've started creating the one planet starts GC. 50 planets, and the starts are Carida, Bothawui and Nirauan. The planets get significantly more difficult to take the farther out from your starting planet that you go, with a few surprises along the way.
-
what time period? or does it encompass all?
-
It's not set within any specific time period. The current plan is to put all 3 at the height of their power, or at the point where they have the most variation. So that means Era 5 loadouts for New Republic and Empire of the Hand, and Era 3 for the Imperial Remnant. The caveat here is that since the idea behind it is working your way up through the GC, it's going to be entirely hero-less, and you have to rely on what you make. Making it progresive wouldn't really work since the playable factions don't have access to each other until quite a while into the GC, making it kind of hard to differentiate.
We're still open to the possibilities of more GCs for 2.0 and beyond, so keep the ideas coming.
-
This sounds VERY cool.
-
Perhaps something where the Heroes are vital to success. For instance like with Warlord Zsinj, when he was killed his kingdom collapsed same with a lot of the Warlords. Could a GC be done where if the main hero of either side were killed it would mean defeat for that faction?
-
Vanilla was like that using the faction leader mechanic, and it was pointless. It basically meant that hero was just kept away.
-
Just a quick update on this, we've started creating the one planet starts GC. 50 planets, and the starts are Carida, Bothawui and Nirauan. The planets get significantly more difficult to take the farther out from your starting planet that you go, with a few surprises along the way.
Yay! An idea of mine was accepted! So proud =D
We're still open to the possibilities of more GCs for 2.0 and beyond, so keep the ideas coming.
Another idea, but one I don't have much knowledge of, is have a GC based on the Restored Empire story. It seems all their units exist in the mod already, and its set in the mods timeline.
-
Another idea, but one I don't have much knowledge of, is have a GC based on the Restored Empire story. It seems all their units exist in the mod already, and its set in the mods timeline.
None of their planets (of which only one seems to ever be named) or heroes do, and as far as units, it's basically just anything from the Republic in the Clone Wars. We never finished our AT-TE, which is their main tank, lost our files for the fighters they apparently used, and while Venators aren't exactly useless they aren't able to stand up to any of the other three factions main capitals by that point.
-
Would the Restored Empire be a minor faction then, since they technically opposed the IR(or at least the leadership) and really only had enough ships to take down 5 ISDs. Their whole goal was a coup since they lacked the might to truly be a power unto themselves. I doubt they'd be a galactic threat.
-
Would the Restored Empire be a minor faction then, since they technically opposed the IR(or at least the leadership) and really only had enough ships to take down 5 ISDs. Their whole goal was a coup since they lacked the might to truly be a power unto themselves. I doubt they'd be a galactic threat.
You just answered your own question there. No, they aren't even big enough to be considered a minor faction. We'd have to make far too many new models/textures, if we were going to put in that much effort we could do someone more major like the Ssi-Ruuk. There's like a hundred little factions that size that we could include, but there's really no reason to. They require far too much effort for their impact, which is minimal considering any other faction can just roll over them. Considering that we still have the Yevetha, EotH, and possible future factions to fill out there's really no way we're going to put in such a minor group.
-
Yes I thought so, I think a GC with the Ssi Ruuk, the EotH and the NR might be interesting.
-
One of the main problems with the Ssi Ruuk is that they're dinosaurs. Not the easiest model to make sadly.
-
One of the main problems with the Ssi Ruuk is that they're dinosaurs. Not the easiest model to make sadly.
Also, I don't recall any description of their units other than a cruiser/carrier and fighters, and infantry. I don't recall them having any land vehicles or anything else. Also I believe only like two of their planets were named.
And the biggest thing about the Ssi-Ruuk is that they entomb their prisoners. Without that ability/aspect to their gameplay, how different are they really from other factions? I don't think they're interesting enough to include in the mod, as the team would have to flesh them out completely, even more so than the EtoH. And the Chiss/EtoH (I consider them one) are much more interesting and cooler...
-
Also, I don't recall any description of their units other than a cruiser/carrier and fighters, and infantry. I don't recall them having any land vehicles or anything else. Also I believe only like two of their planets were named.
And the biggest thing about the Ssi-Ruuk is that they entomb their prisoners. Without that ability/aspect to their gameplay, how different are they really from other factions? I don't think they're interesting enough to include in the mod, as the team would have to flesh them out completely, even more so than the EtoH. And the Chiss/EtoH (I consider them one) are much more interesting and cooler...
I think the suggestion was as a non-playable faction. As far as entechment goes, that isn't something that would really show up in the game mechanics, even just population capacity taken from other planets would technically fill that role; it's just their power source, but it's not like the other factions have to worry about reactors or something. If anything population capacity fits them better than it does any other faction. As far as needing to be fleshed out, they're far more complete on their own than 2/3 existing minor factions, and way more complete than the Empire of the Hand was when we started, which only had one fighter. The Yevetha had one fighter type and one frigate type, the Hapans two frigates and two fighters. The Ssi-Ruuvi have D'kee landers, Lw'hekk manufacturing ships (carrier), Fw'sen picket ships, Sh'ner assault carriers, Shree battlecruisers, Wurrif cruisers, Swarm droid fighters, and V'sett interceptors, all of which have a design, except the V'sett which has a description.
-
Yes I meant them for a minor faction in the EotHs back yard so to speak since they have a relatively secure territory with only three routes that attacks can come from. The Ssi Ruuk could be done like the Yevetha with just one or two worlds and large amounts of ships and troops.
-
Yeah, with them it's more a question of difficulty in making the actual assets.
-
A new GC map where you play as one of the warlords. A map consisting of solely the Pentastar Alignment, Zsinj Empire, and Zero Command as the main factions, with the NR and other lesser warlords functioning as non-aligned or NPCs. This way you have a map that can truly be called "Imperial Civil War" because its fought predominantly between the rival Imperial factions. This would also allow for those players that want to play Zsinj or Kaine, can in fact play them.
I've never been a fan of the whole Force-centered nature of most of the EU books, that center around Force-users. It's why Thrawn has always been my favorite Imperial leader, he didn't need the Force or a super weapon to kill you, he had military competency.
Force users should not be even thought about imho in considering a pure Imperial Civil War mod that centers around the conflicts of the various warlords, such as Kaine, Delvardus, Zsinj, etc.
-
A new GC map where you play as one of the warlords. A map consisting of solely the Pentastar Alignment, Zsinj Empire, and Zero Command as the main factions, with the NR and other lesser warlords functioning as non-aligned or NPCs. This way you have a map that can truly be called "Imperial Civil War" because its fought predominantly between the rival Imperial factions. This would also allow for those players that want to play Zsinj or Kaine, can in fact play them.
Warlord Zsinj is playable now in the Hunt for Zsinj GC. I've suggested the Pentastar and Warlord based GC a few times myself but Pentastar is virtually identical to the standard IR so there is little difference. The Warlords are minor factions and few had enough different units to be individual factions so they were combined.
I've never been a fan of the whole Force-centered nature of most of the EU books, that center around Force-users. It's why Thrawn has always been my favorite Imperial leader, he didn't need the Force or a super weapon to kill you, he had military competency.
I myself also am a fan of Thrawn and Pellaeon who didn't need the force to be effective.
Force users should not be even thought about imho in considering a pure Imperial Civil War mod that centers around the conflicts of the various warlords, such as Kaine, Delvardus, Zsinj, etc.
I think one where you could play as Harsk, Teradoc and Delvardus in their last year of life would be interesting. With say 12 planets(each Warlord has 4) and give them their signature units(harrsk the Tectors, teradoc the crimson command VSDIIs, and Delvardus the Night Hammer and a few heavy ships) Each wuold have their own strategy, Teradoc is light and fast units, Delvardus has few ships but they are very powerful, Harrsk is a balance between the other two with medium units.)
-
We've discussed the problems associated with making more playable factions before, and they all still apply here as much as anywhere else. If we were to make a GC centered around a bunch of different Imperial factions, you'd still only ever be able to play as one of them unless we made multiple copies of the same GC, but it's getting cluttered as it is, and the more minor Imperial factions we break everything into on the Galactic map, the sooner we get the freeze. Basically this means I try to limit it to 2 Imperial factions per GC; the playable version, and the rest get grouped together.
This is why in Fractured Empire, you get the Empire run by Isard as the playable option, and then Zsinj and Pentastar are grouped. Otherwise you get a faster freeze, and you get Warlord factions that are complete pushovers by the time you get to them, since otherwise they spend the whole game destroying each other. In Hunt for Zsinj (2.0 version), you get Zsinj as the playable faction, Rogriss working with the NR/Hapans, and Teradoc in Maldrood, and 3 groups is about as much as I think we'll ever break up the Warlords.
Weird explanation of Imperial Divisions follows. I researched this as I wrote, so don't worry if it's a bit off, that's not the important part.
If we were to do the pre-Isard GC we were talking about before, for another example of how I'd divide the Imperial facions, the exact distribution would depend on who exactly everyone would want playable, but there seems to be a few distinct major groups at this point; Zero Command under Harrsk, Greater Maldrood under Teradoc, Eriadu Authority under Delvardus, Zsinj's Empire in the Quelii Oversector, Kaine in the Oversector Outer/New Territories (Pentastar Alignment pre-7ABY) and Sate Pestage/Isard and the Ruling Council territories/Ciutric Hegemony. There's also the New Republic. Basically it's unfeasible to distribute the groups all on their own, that's way too many active factions over too much territory; the game would freeze after 40 weeks.
I'll just simplify things by saying the Oversector Outer (Pentastar) is the playable group, the point here is the logic behind the divisions of the Warlords, so it could be shuffled around a lot depending on who's playable.
Playable Remnant = Pentastar Alignment
Group 2: Zsinj, Delvardus
Group 3: Harrsk, Teradoc, Ruling Council
New Republic
The key points here are 1) don't expect a GC with like 5-7 different Imperial groups, there are too many problems inherent in that kind of a situation unless Petro/LA decide to release an engine patch to fix the freeze, and 2) don't expect GCs single GCs where you get the choice of playing a bunch of different Imperial groups unless we get workarounds that aren't extremely clunky. The far more likely/reasonable option is more like Hunt for Zsinj, where the focus is on one or two groups. Smallpox would understand those options infinitely better than myself, though.
-
I like that idea! Kaine and Jerec as playables! Woo!
-
You have already covered the 4-19 ABY pretty well so this isn't as easy as it seems. But one possibility that comes to mind is the Post-Zsinj campaign with NR, IR and Warlord Teradoc.
thrawn was cloned in his secret hideout he can stay in it for a couple hundred years reallyi think most people can be cloned