Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Lord Xizer on May 19, 2011, 07:24:54 PM
-
This is a poll to find out who you feel is the greatest of all time.
Was it Emperor Palpatine? Who created the Galactic Empire by tearing down a Republic that had stood for 1000 generations, who used maul, duped Tyrannus, turned Vader? Masterminded the extermination(almost) of the Jedi Order, ruled for 24 years(not counting his 13 years as Supreme Chancellor) before dying at Vaders hand at Endor, returned from death itself numerous times and nearly destroyed the Rebellion and later NR 6 years after his first death only to be foiled at the last minute by unexpected treachery at both Byss and later Onderon by Carnor Jax arranging for Palpatine's clones to be destroyed. With little choice to avoid his final death Palpatine attempted to steal the body of Anakin Solo only to have his soul intercepted by Jedi Brand and dragged literally screaming into chaos for the final time.
Was it Madam Director of Imperial Intelligence Ysanne Isard? A woman who unleashed the Krytos Virus on the fledgling NR at it's time of greatest triumph?(Incidentally I believe the Isard is the biggest team killer of all time, having essentially HANDED the Rebellion legitimacy by giving them Courascant, Borlieas, Thyferra, and other systems through harebrained schemes. Also allowed the NR to obtain 4 ISD Mk IIs and the SSD Lusankya as well as fracturing the Empire into further Warlord factions by losing the symbol of Imperial stability-Imperial Center, but I digress.) Before her death she managed to inflict carnage on mass scales second only to the Emperor, Darth Vader, and Prince Xizor. She nearly rose to power again after Thrawn's death by using Rogue Squadron and Krennal as Puppets to get her back to Lusankya. However she was ultimately thwarted by Iella Wesseri and perished in her old office a blaster bolt melting into her "Iceheart"
Was it Grand Admiral Thrawn? Who returned to rebuild the shattered Imperial Fleet with the katana fleet, rejuvenate the badly depleted Imperial Army and fighter corps via Mount Tantiss cloning center, find numerous devastating uses for the double blind cloaking shield and enhance his troops abilities via the Insane Jedi master Joruus C'baoth to take the fight to the NR and come within a hairsbreadth of total victory were it not for his untimely death via treachery at the hand of Ruhk his trusted Noghri bodyguard. The very rumor of his return 10 years later was enough to shake the NR down to it's core and cause mass panic.
Was it Admiral Nataasi Daala? Whose desire to take the fight to the Rebellion led her into a personal war against the NR with only four ISDs and outdated tactics. Who survived and managed to bring the Empire under one leader once more by murdering all the squabbling Deep Core Warlords who had for years sapped the strength of the Imperial Star Fleet by fighting an unending civil war upon one another. Her assault did massive damage to the NR before sabatoge and bad luck stopped her short of victory once more and she was driven back.
Was it Grand Admiral Gilad Pellaeon? The Old man of the Empire, the man who served under all the aforementioned leaders and rose to the position of Supreme Commander of all Imperial Forces. he fought a skillful war against the NR for four years before managing to save the Imperial Remnant by signing a peace treaty with the NR and bringing the war to an end. He later fought against the Yuuzhan Vong alongside his onetime enemies the NR and chased the Vong out of Imperial Space with timely assistance from the Jedi. He was the only Grand Admiral promoted after Palpatine's death.(not counting Legacy series)
-
Pellaeon, no doubt about it. He loyally served the Old Republic and Empire for almost 80 years. While he wasn't as gifted a strategist as Thrawn, he lacked the cruel streak found in Palpatine and Isard. His influence in the Remnant helped to bring about important changes including discouraging the bias against women and non-humans in the Imperial Navy and society, and resulted in eventual peace with the New Republic.
-
Thrawn is best by far, in my opinion.
If only he survived until the Vong war, he could have crushed them easily.
-
I admit I feel it should be a tie between Thrawn and Pellaeon. Both were extraordinary leaders against long odds. Both were open minded and quick to adapt to unforeseen circumstances as well as having impressive foresight. Both were arguably the only reason the Empire survived at all after the death of the Emperor.
I feel I have to go with Thrawn though, for the following reasons. He mentored Pellaeon and helped encourage him in his ideas and beliefs while challenging him to improve and adapt. Pellaeon was truly a masterful tactician and deserving of the title of Grand Admiral in my opinion. However he loses out to Thrawn due to his indecisiveness for years. He lost his fighting spirit(though who could blame him given the circumstances?) and tended to follow orders rather than go against his superiors for a long time. He saw himself as a steward of the Empire not a leader and so he lost many opportunities to advance and possibly seize initiatives. He needed Daala to reunite the Empire by killing the Warlords, he was more comfortable taking orders than being the one giving them due to his long service under maniacs like Vader who killed for little or no reason their officers on whims, though Thrawn and Daala helped him recover from this and become the leader he could be.
Also in terms of sheer talent, decisiveness, cunning, and charisma I'm afraid Thrawn comes out ahead again. However if ever it could be said that Thrawn had a protoge it would be Pellaeon. He saved the Empire, kicked Vong rear, outlived all his superiors and most of his comrades though he was exposed to the same dangers, and helped change the Empire to something to be proud of rather than the despots tyrannical vision of palpatine. However Pellaeon is one of my all time favorite characters.
-
I'm moving this and the other thread to the SW discussion board.
-
I think that Pellaeon was the Best Imperial Leader. He was a brilliant tactician and he has a Ship named after him.
-
This is a hard one, though I love Thrawn and he's probably my favorite Star Wars character and Palleon has his own merits as well, I'm personally gonna have to go with Daala. She was the only person who was able to reunify the Empire and have it stay that way after her departure, and she was a woman. She stopped all the warlord BS, stopped the sexism and alien racism, and had enough charisma, leadership, and ruthlessness to have everyone follow her. I love the part where she fires ion cannons at that other Imperial ship and then gives a speech that rouses everyone to follow her. And in her failure at Yavin 4 she showed her ability to accept her failure and know that she had done all she could and the Empire needed to be in the hands of someone who had more tactical and strategic knowledge then her. Though she wasn't as good of a strategist and tactician as Thrawn and Palleon, she had great political skill which was what allowed her to reunify The Empire, Daala would of made a great Moff.
-
I've never read a Star Wars book in my life, so I can't comment effectively. Is this sufficient, Xizer?
-
I've never read a Star Wars book in my life.
That makes two of us.
-
I didn't read the Thrawn trilogy until almost a year after starting this mod. =D
Anywho, answer is clearly Pellaeon. He managed to keep the job for like 20 years without making anyone really hate him.
-
Interesting opinions all. I would recommend some Star Wars books that are just great reads and enjoyable, the X Wing series, the Thrawn Trilogy and Darksaber are some of the best of the EU in my opinion. While I voted for Thrawn Pellaeon was my favorite EU character ever since I read Heir to the Empire almost 15 years ago, I was always rooting for the Old Man of the Empire.
-
My opinion is pretty much the same as Xizer's lol, I voted Thrawn because he was a genius, and the best strategist possibly of all time, as well as a master tactician. He was fair, but ruthless, instead of just abusing his power he used it wisely, unlike Vader and especially Palpatine (except, perhaps, in the case of the Noghri).
Pellaeon I like better as a character, because, despite his old age, was not so fixed in the old ways that he could not change. Though he believed strongly in Imperial military traditions, he was not completely inflexible. He was a highly competent tactician, and later became a very skilled tactician, as well as a skilled strategist. While he never achieved Thrawn's level of strategic genius, I feel, had Thrawn survived, he would have become even more skilled than he already was, and I can see him being the "field commander", while Thrawn would be the master strategist. I think his old age gave him more experience and made him easier for his men to trust, which may arguably make him a better leader.
-
Well said SENZA.
-
Thank you Xizer, though why was my name capitalized? :p
-
My opinion is pretty much the same as Xizer's lol, I voted Thrawn because he was a genius, and the best strategist possibly of all time, as well as a master tactician. He was fair, but ruthless, instead of just abusing his power he used it wisely, unlike Vader and especially Palpatine (except, perhaps, in the case of the Noghri).
Pellaeon I like better as a character, because, despite his old age, was not so fixed in the old ways that he could not change. Though he believed strongly in Imperial military traditions, he was not completely inflexible. He was a highly competent tactician, and later became a very skilled tactician, as well as a skilled strategist. While he never achieved Thrawn's level of strategic genius, I feel, had Thrawn survived, he would have become even more skilled than he already was, and I can see him being the "field commander", while Thrawn would be the master strategist. I think his old age gave him more experience and made him easier for his men to trust, which may arguably make him a better leader.
Pretty much my feelings exactly. Thrawn was, IMO, the by far best leader, but Pallaeon was the most likeable, while still being a great leader.
-
Thank you Xizer, though why was my name capitalized? :p
That's how it appeared on the quotes below wnile I was posting so I put it in all Caps it seems.
-
That's how it appeared on the quotes below wnile I was posting so I put it in all Caps it seems.
Interesting.... I must research this further! (I won't actually)
-
I voted for Daala. She was a very powerful and sucessful (if not a bit crazy, which worked well for her). While my favorite is Thrawn, the greatest is for sure Admiral Nataasi Daala. With Pellaeon coming in a close third behind Thrawn.
-
Interesting choice. I never thought of Daala as a great tactician or strategist but she did have will and motivation. She also cared for those under her command and did what needed to be done for the Empire to reunify by killing those strutting fools of warlords. She's definitely in my top three Leaders as a support and rallying leader she was inspirational with charisma but certainly not someone I would follow into battle if she planned it. I do admire her for her desire to lead from the front though, she has guts. Pellaeon and Thrawn without hesitation I would follow though Pellaeon was lacking a bit in the charisma and decisiveness he is a very likeable leader who cares greatly for his soldiers and asks no more of them than of himself and he doesn't skulk at the rear. Thrawn, it would have been a true honor, after all he was a combination of some of history's greatest minds(Alexander the Great, Hannibal and Rommel) and the fictional Sherlock Holmes. just to meet someone like that let alone fight under his banner would be an honor without equal for any warrior or soldier.
-
Like I said before Daala should of been a Moff, but to have made the perfect leadership for the Imperial Remnant-
Daala in charge of military policy
Thrawn in charge of all military strategy
Palleon as a Grand Admiral
Compared to real life counterparts Daala would of been FDR, Thrawn George C. Marshall, and Palleon Dwight D. Eisenhower.
-
Interesting comparisons. I agree Daala would have made a much better Moff, must of come from all her quality time with Grand Moff Tarkin.
-
Interesting choice. I never thought of Daala as a great tactician or strategist but she did have will and motivation. She also cared for those under her command and did what needed to be done for the Empire to reunify by killing those strutting fools of warlords. She's definitely in my top three Leaders as a support and rallying leader she was inspirational with charisma but certainly not someone I would follow into battle if she planned it. I do admire her for her desire to lead from the front though, she has guts. Pellaeon and Thrawn without hesitation I would follow though Pellaeon was lacking a bit in the charisma and decisiveness he is a very likeable leader who cares greatly for his soldiers and asks no more of them than of himself and he doesn't skulk at the rear. Thrawn, it would have been a true honor, after all he was a combination of some of history's greatest minds(Alexander the Great, Hannibal and Rommel) and the fictional Sherlock Holmes. just to meet someone like that let alone fight under his banner would be an honor without equal for any warrior or soldier.
I agree with what you are saying about Thrawn. He was a great leader who gave the Imperial Remnent the chance to survive, without him it wouldn't have been 5-6 years before the last of the major Imperials were all but gone. Also look at it this way, the Emperor picked him, an alien, to be a Grand Admiral! Think about, if Thrawn was as good as the other Grand Admirals he would not have been elevated by the Emperor to such a high position because he was an alien, but he was better. Better than any of them.
I still think Admiral Daala is the greatest. My brother thinks Thrawn is the greatest imperial leader, but when I told him that Daala was in charge of the Galactic Alliance, he got very worried and started saying that "How could Luke and Han and everybody allow such a thing?!". He then told me that he won't read the later Star Wars books because apparently the authors don't know what they are doing because the heroes of the Rebellion and New Republic would never allow such a thing to happen.
Offtopic: I still can't get my hands on a copy of the final Fate of the Jedi book. :'(
-
Personally I feel that it can't be anyone but Palpatine. As the man who conquered most of the galaxy, founded the Empire in the first place, almost entirely exterminated the Jedi, and created a glory that every other Imperial leader would try and fail to recapture. Palpatine is the best because he's the only one who actually won. Sure he may have died, but he actually succeeded in destroying the Republic and the Jedi Order. Sure the Jedi were reborn, but they certainly were nothing like what they were before. Isard, Thrawn, Daala, Pellaeon, they all share the common feature of failing. Palpatine won. His shadow was felt across the galaxy for decades after his death.
-
As to the Fate of the Jedi and Legacy series I do feel like they really were kind of overreaching. I mean after the Emperor, Thrawn, the Warlords and the Yuuzhan Vong the second Galactic Civil War just seemed like a poor sequel. It's not really the authors fault I mean how could you top the Vong War in terms of crisis, doom and emotional heaves? All the Legacy and Fate novels did was repeat the prequel crisis on a smaller scale, lesser pretend Sith come back, jacen follows his grandfather's missteps and so on. I just couldn't get into those series like I did the NJO, X Wing series, Thrawn Books and Darksaber. Daala coming back as head of the Galactic Alliance too also just seemed too improbable to me.
Palpatine would be a pretty good choice. He did set the stage for all the others and it could be argued that they all were just lesser threats to an extent of the original Emperor. Palpatine was the only one to achieve ABSOLUTE control and actually hold it for 19 years unchallenged before the Rebellion even came to his attention, none of the others could make that claim.
-
As to the Fate of the Jedi and Legacy series I do feel like they really were kind of overreaching. I mean after the Emperor, Thrawn, the Warlords and the Yuuzhan Vong the second Galactic Civil War just seemed like a poor sequel. It's not really the authors fault I mean how could you top the Vong War in terms of crisis, doom and emotional heaves? All the Legacy and Fate novels did was repeat the prequel crisis on a smaller scale, lesser pretend Sith come back, jacen follows his grandfather's missteps and so on. I just couldn't get into those series like I did the NJO, X Wing series, Thrawn Books and Darksaber. Daala coming back as head of the Galactic Alliance too also just seemed too improbable to me.
Palpatine would be a pretty good choice. He did set the stage for all the others and it could be argued that they all were just lesser threats to an extent of the original Emperor. Palpatine was the only one to achieve ABSOLUTE control and actually hold it for 19 years unchallenged before the Rebellion even came to his attention, none of the others could make that claim.
I do like the legacy era though. Not because of the books (I agree with you that it's a been there done that storyline that brings nothing to the table), but because I like the Pallaeon SD's.
-
As to the Fate of the Jedi and Legacy series I do feel like they really were kind of overreaching. I mean after the Emperor, Thrawn, the Warlords and the Yuuzhan Vong the second Galactic Civil War just seemed like a poor sequel. It's not really the authors fault I mean how could you top the Vong War in terms of crisis, doom and emotional heaves? All the Legacy and Fate novels did was repeat the prequel crisis on a smaller scale, lesser pretend Sith come back, jacen follows his grandfather's missteps and so on. I just couldn't get into those series like I did the NJO, X Wing series, Thrawn Books and Darksaber. Daala coming back as head of the Galactic Alliance too also just seemed too improbable to me.
I do like the legacy era though. Not because of the books (I agree with you that it's a been there done that storyline that brings nothing to the table), but because I like the Pallaeon SD's.
I thought Legacy was a bit too much 'been there done that' too, but I really like the Fate of the Jedi series. It has a lot of interesting stuff going on. I just can't tell you how interesting I find it, they even did a really good job with bringing in new Sith bad guys (The Lost Tribe) and making them interesting. The entire series has been good. Good non-stupid character interactions, long drawn out plots, Great twists and suprises, ect. I hope the don't do anymore Sith in a new series, if they do that is where I jump ship. I am really interested to see what happens to Allana, they are hinting a lot about her possible future.
@tlmiller, I agree. Pallaeon SD's (Although I wasn't a big fan of the Legacy Comic Books at all) are really cool, but all Star Destroyers are cool. I think we all remember that moment in A New Hope when we first saw the Star Destroyer, check that we all remember the first moment we saw the opening scene in Episode IV. Went a little long here... and way off-topic but anyhow, Sorry.
-
Yes it was that moment all those years ago when i saw the ISD Devastator tearing after the Tantive IV that made me Imperial to the core lol. I said I don't even know the rest of the plot but I like these guys already if they drive something like THAT!
-
I would further add that Pellaeon probably has the best quote in all of the EU. When he's going to save the Colonel from Disra's prison, he cuts off the officer in the prison with "I'm Admiral Pellaeon, Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet, open the door." And when he protests, he just says the same thing more sternly.
-
I would further add that Pellaeon probably has the best quote in all of the EU. When he's going to save the Colonel from Disra's prison, he cuts off the officer in the prison with "I'm Admiral Pellaeon, Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet, open the door." And when he protests, he just says the same thing more sternly.
:D
I do like that.
-
I think Pellaeon's best quote was what he said to Vorrik during the Vong war, when he defeated the Yuuzhan Vong commnader at the battle of Borosk.
Commander Vorrik, "You think you have won?!!!"
Grand Admiral Pellaeon, "I have indeed and I want you to remember something else if you can in that warped little mind of yours Vorrik. You may win the occasional battle against us, but the Empire will ALWAYS Strike Back. That I promise you."
-
I love how while everyone has their own favorites for their reasons no one likes Isard lol!
-
definitely Thrawn. He almost won, and he would have if he hadnt trusted the noghri or whatever they are called
-
I had to throw my vote in with Pellaeon....though Thrawn is very close. The couple points that do it for me is service record and general personality. However, I would never downplay Thrawn's tactical genius, I just respect the amount of dedication to the fleet (be it Republic, Empire, etc). I also wasn't too keen on thrawn keeping Noghri under the Imperial boot.
-
I had to throw my vote in with Pellaeon....though Thrawn is very close. The couple points that do it for me is service record and general personality. However, I would never downplay Thrawn's tactical genius, I just respect the amount of dedication to the fleet (be it Republic, Empire, etc). I also wasn't too keen on thrawn keeping Noghri under the Imperial boot.
A good choice with excellent reasons. Pellaeon is my favorite EU character.
-
A good choice with excellent reasons. Pellaeon is my favorite EU character.
I have to agree, though I'm also a fan of Jagged Fel (Being raised among Chiss is just a very interesting idea to me) as well as Daala (Beat stick "strategy" is entertaining)
-
I have to agree, though I'm also a fan of Jagged Fel (Being raised among Chiss is just a very interesting idea to me) as well as Daala (Beat stick "strategy" is entertaining)
Fel is a good character, Daala always struck me as a better subordinate than leader.
-
Fel is a good character, Daala always struck me as a better subordinate than leader.
I concur, Daala would be an excellent (as stated above) Moff. If one could control how irrational she could be she would be a very effective battering ram. (her being Chief of State was a bit silly to me...)
-
I love how while everyone has their own favorites for their reasons no one likes Isard lol!
She's got a kind of Carmen Sandiago vibe going for her, don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. ???
-
She's got a kind of Carmen Sandiago vibe going for her, don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. ???
Yeah where in the galaxy is Natasi Daala?
-
Fine, since no one else will, i shall give a reason to like Isard. She managed to kill the bumbling Imperial Ruling Counsel, who would have torn the Empire apart were it not for their death. She also gave Soontir Fel to Thrawn, where he served in the EotH.
-
Fine, since no one else will, i shall give a reason to like Isard. She managed to kill the bumbling Imperial Ruling Counsel, who would have torn the Empire apart were it not for their death. She also gave Soontir Fel to Thrawn, where he served in the EotH.
Well she actually helped give the ruling council power to start with, and she caused Fel to leave Imperial Service and it was Thrawn's plan that captured him again and brought him back to the proper side not Isard's. She DID secretly manage to unite the various Warlords into a coalition after Thrawn's death for the Reborn Emperor(according to EGW)
-
Fine, since no one else will, i shall give a reason to like Isard. She managed to kill the bumbling Imperial Ruling Counsel, who would have torn the Empire apart were it not for their death. She also gave Soontir Fel to Thrawn, where he served in the EotH.
Yes, because the Empire totally didn't fall apart regardless!
-
Yes, because the Empire totally didn't fall apart regardless!
She ACCELERATED it by decades. She gave the rebs Imp Center, helped foment distrust among Imps in her power grab and did unreparable damage.
-
She ACCELERATED it by decades. She gave the rebs Imp Center, helped foment distrust among Imps in her power grab and did unreparable damage.
Actually, I think that giving the Rebels Imp Center was the best thing that could have happened. Imp Center would have become a prime target for the Rebs, so the Empire would have had to use all its resources to protect it rather than investing those resources in expanding and rebuilding. Instead, give it to the Rebs. Now, not only do they have to manage a war against "evil", they also have to maintain face by holding on to Coruscant and prove that they can run a government. They now have to waste precious resources in protecting Coruscant from Imperial attack, resources that could have been spent trying to defeat the Empire. Without a capital world, the imps also had the advantage of mobility. The Rebs couldn't just say: "the imperial leader will be on [insert planet here], all we have to do is attack that planet." Instead, they had to drain more resources hunting for the leader.
-
Except that the loss of Coruscant gave the Empire nothing to rally around. Without any sort of homeworld or central location to govern them, or any way for a successor to establish legitimacy by owning it..well obviously they fractured. Sure the New Republic now had to protect Coruscant, but it's still a massively important planet that legitimized the New Republics rule and likely gave them control of much more of the galaxy than before. Many worlds that were iffy on the New Republic before quite likely switched sides, and even most of the remaining Imperial Worlds were likely much less loyal than before. Maybe if the Krytos virus had been implemented as planned it would have been a worthwhile plan, but as is it was the single worst thing to happen to the Empire since Endor.
-
Except that the loss of Coruscant gave the Empire nothing to rally around. Without any sort of homeworld or central location to govern them, or any way for a successor to establish legitimacy by owning it..well obviously they fractured. Sure the New Republic now had to protect Coruscant, but it's still a massively important planet that legitimized the New Republics rule and likely gave them control of much more of the galaxy than before. Many worlds that were iffy on the New Republic before quite likely switched sides, and even most of the remaining Imperial Worlds were likely much less loyal than before. Maybe if the Krytos virus had been implemented as planned it would have been a worthwhile plan, but as is it was the single worst thing to happen to the Empire since Endor.
Well said. Her plan in order to work had to be 100%. Absolutely every detail had to be perfect and if anything happened out of her intended plan it all fell apart...which is what happened.
-
Well said. Her plan in order to work had to be 100%. Absolutely every detail had to be perfect and if anything happened out of her intended plan it all fell apart...which is what happened.
Always a foolish way to do a plan...but that is why Isard is...less liked, to put it kindly.
-
Always a foolish way to do a plan...but that is why Isard is...less liked, to put it kindly.
She's a team killing idiot. that's the nicest I can put it.
-
All right, I'll try one more time. Isard killed the ruling counsel, then she herself was "killed". If we assume that the council had the same hatred of non-humans that palpi did (a logical guess) and that Isard would be unwilling to share her power (another logical guess), then Thrawn would never have returned, and Pellaeon never would have become the leader of the IR, since he wouldn't have been trained by Thrawn, and thus would have been merely a "competent captain."
I personally voted for Pellaeon. It was a tough call, but I chose him over Thrawn because of one key attribute that Thrawn lacked: Vision. Thrawn was stuck in the past, feeling that the Empire could be restored to its former glory, not realizing that the galaxy was fundamentally different with the loss of the Emporer. Pellaeon, on the other hand, realized that there came a point where you just have to stop. I don't think that Thrawn would have seen that though surrender might not be the only option, it can be the wisest.
-
All right, I'll try one more time. Isard killed the ruling counsel, then she herself was "killed". If we assume that the council had the same hatred of non-humans that palpi did (a logical guess) and that Isard would be unwilling to share her power (another logical guess), then Thrawn would never have returned, and Pellaeon never would have become the leader of the IR, since he wouldn't have been trained by Thrawn, and thus would have been merely a "competent captain."
I personally voted for Pellaeon. It was a tough call, but I chose him over Thrawn because of one key attribute that Thrawn lacked: Vision. Thrawn was stuck in the past, feeling that the Empire could be restored to its former glory, not realizing that the galaxy was fundamentally different with the loss of the Emporer. Pellaeon, on the other hand, realized that there came a point where you just have to stop. I don't think that Thrawn would have seen that though surrender might not be the only option, it can be the wisest.
I do see your first point yes, still if Thrawn made up his mind to return I wouldn't give Isard much hope there. The military hated her and would have deserted her at the best possible moment for a military leader to follow, most were hoping to put Fel on the Throne to represent the military according to EGW, so I think they would have flocked to Thrawn's banner after he demonstrated his skill and beat Isard a few times.(This does not include the likes of Zsinj, Harrsk, Teradoc, Delvardus, or the other Deep core warlords) Kaine would have put his support behind Thrawn like he did in the actual campaign(and would have thrown FULL support had Thrawn not died at Bilbringi according to EGW)
As to Thrawn being obsessed with the past, he was loyal to the idea of Empire, not the Empire. He wanted the stability of the Empire over the bureaucracy of NR. In Spector of the Past Parrk even mentions he wouldn't be sure which side Thrawn would come down on when he returned as promised since Thrawn wanted order to prepare for the Vong. Pellaeon is actually my favorite EU character though, he's just very likable.
-
As to Thrawn being obsessed with the past, he was loyal to the idea of Empire, not the Empire. He wanted the stability of the Empire over the bureaucracy of NR. In Spector of the Past Parrk even mentions he wouldn't be sure which side Thrawn would come down on when he returned as promised since Thrawn wanted order to prepare for the Vong. Pellaeon is actually my favorite EU character though, he's just very likable.
I guess what I mean is that he still had the ideals of the original Empire in mind, with a few modifications. He still believed that total order at the expense of freedoms was superior. While this worked while the Emporer was alive (and even then not for very long), in the post-Empire galaxy, it simply wouldn't work, no matter how hard one tried. The people would not allow it. That is what he didn't see: that the Empire could not be restored to its former glory, at least not yet. If I am correct, Pellaeon himself said something about this. I think it was something to the like of: if we keep fighting, we will lose, but if we can establish a peace treaty, at least the Empire will live and can rebuild. And one day, when the people are ready, we can return.
-
I guess what I mean is that he still had the ideals of the original Empire in mind, with a few modifications. He still believed that total order at the expense of freedoms was superior. While this worked while the Emporer was alive (and even then not for very long), in the post-Empire galaxy, it simply wouldn't work, no matter how hard one tried. The people would not allow it. That is what he didn't see: that the Empire could not be restored to its former glory, at least not yet. If I am correct, Pellaeon himself said something about this. I think it was something to the like of: if we keep fighting, we will lose, but if we can establish a peace treaty, at least the Empire will live and can rebuild. And one day, when the people are ready, we can return.
This is true, I tend to focus on military aspects of the War and forget that once given freedom and with the memory of Palps tyranny still fresh in everyone's mind the Empire would not have been welcome, perhaps given time Thrawn might have won them over but it would have been a tough thing as leaders like Pellaeon and Thrawn were rare.
-
Old Gilad gets my vote :)
-
Indeed, the Old Man of the Empire is my favorite EU character.
-
imo the greatest leader was Palpatine, who managed to throw over the old republic and extinct the Jedi.
He was a genius in manipulating others, although he isnt very likeable as a sith
-
yeah, he could have used a better PR team too after the whole...Tarkin Doctrine thing...
-
My vote went to Pellaeon, but I do love Thrawn. The problem is, I don't think Thrawn had the mentality or the capacity for long-term administrative action. I think, had he managed to reform the Empire he desired [and assuming Palpatine didn't return, of course], he'd be much more likely to hand its actual administration off to... Quite possibly Pellaeon, actually.
Thrawn was a genius, but his work was far reaching and his interests were military. I think he'd need and appreciate someone of practical cunning. Hell, look at the battles fought in the Thrawn books - rarely is Thrawn in direct command of formation and tactics. He handles the overall strategy [and is a wonder at it], but how often in those books does he turn the actual battle over to Pellaeon and let him handle the deployment? Likewise, he chose people among his own subordinates to administrate the Hand. I don't think he'd have the patience to rule in the manner of an Emperor, nor the interest in diplomacy.
-
Well Thrawn was primarily a Warrior and guardian. He Was ruling in all but name when he got into his campaign. The Grand Moffs held political power in the Empire but Thrawn had command of military forces really.
His primary concern was for the survival of HIS people, thus his devotion to the Unknown Regions. I think he would have not taken the position of Emperor but handed it off to a qualified person for long term management.
(He even mentions cloning C'baoth again properly and raising the clone in a proper setting to 'create' a good leader to replace palps.)
-
Thrawn becuase he thrawn read a book specifically the thrawn trilogy
-
Daala dor me, she unified (killing) the warlords into the empire. That was a light of hope for the empire but didin't last long. Besides it's quite an interesting character in the empire and did a lot more of work even after the empire surrended
-
I just can't bring myself to like Daala, she's Imperial to the core and that is commendable, but she's so horribly incompetent and prone to emotional outbursts like Cobra Commander.
-
Emperor Palpatine because he made the Empire out of the 25,000 year old Republic had two death stars and two eclipse star dreadnaughts (not at the same time), he was born (and died) 4 times, and nearly killed all of the jedi.
And because of that you lot wouldn't of had a favourite Imperial leader.
-
He also looked the scariest.
-
You make good points for Palpatine and he certainly had the longest period of rule compared to the other candidates.
-
But he's also a complete and total strategic moron that doesn't comprehend a single thing in regards to true strategy. His decision to standardize on the ISD with it's only so-so complement of fighters, and standardize on what is basically a barely-armed pile of tissue paper is the reason he was defeated, TIME AND AGAIN.
-
But he's also a complete and total strategic moron that doesn't comprehend a single thing in regards to true strategy. His decision to standardize on the ISD with it's only so-so complement of fighters, and standardize on what is basically a barely-armed pile of tissue paper is the reason he was defeated, TIME AND AGAIN.
Actually he had a decent grasp of strategy. Evidenced by his management of both sides of the Clone Wars, the ability to maintain his rule for 19 years suppressing opposition before it arose and his contingency plans in the event of his death point to a devious and complex mind. He employed many truly great strategists and recognized tactical worth. That being said his major weakness was actually from his Sith training. His belief that sheer terror and power coupled with manipulation were the keys to long term stability.
The TIE Interceptors were very good fighters that were decent quality and cheap to make, in competent hands a TIE could beat an X wing hands down. The main point of the Empire's fleet strategy was large scale suppression using the ISDs to deal with planets and assaults with the fighters there mainly to screen the main line ships. This can be an effective strategy when fighting fleets or governing large expanses of territory but it makes chasing down Rebels who use the "Stateless Strategy" very difficult. The ISD was by and by the most widely used and competent ship produced by any of the factions in the Galactic Civil war.
As for a barely armed sheet of toilet paper I assume you mean the Superweapons? The First Death Star fell prey to the acts of Luck and Vader's idiotic plan to let the rebels have the plans without altering them in any way or just killing the heroes as they tried to fly off the Death Star. The Second was not completed, it did not share the same flaw as the first one and actually had some interesting conventional uses in war as well as terror. The Tarkin, Eye of Palpatine, Death Star Prototype, and Sun Crusher were mere prototypes that were not meant to be deployed on a full scale military level until finished with testing(as they never were) The World Devastators WERE unstoppable and carried out their task very efficiently but were stopped by let's face it a crap plot device. The Eclipse I and II were magnificent weapons of war that were again victims of plot devices as they and the Sovereigns could hold their own against a fleet without support. Each served a specific purpose and were only destroyed due to the fact the Heroes ALWAYS win in the end so the things had to be stopped in increasingly unbelievable ways. Personally I think the superweapons far from being wastes when coupled with proper military support or tactics were very effective and creative.
-
No, barely armed sheet of toilet paper = tie fighter. 2 weak laser cannons, no shields, and such a powerful hull that breathing on it wrong would break it. And yes, if they would have modeled the ISD on the Venator, being a carrier with TONS of fighters, that would have worked. But instead, the ISD has only a moderate complement of fighters, so that against any REAL opposition it has only a 2-1 or even less advantage in fighters, which is simply insufficient when the fighter is the Tie Figher.
Also, I would never say he wasn't a POLITICAL genious, but his tactical abilities I still say he was dumber than a pile of bantha dung.
-
Actually he had a decent grasp of strategy. Evidenced by his management of both sides of the Clone Wars,
When I play games against myself, I always beat me.
-
DAMN, I ain't got time to play with myself.
-
I just realised why he always brought cheap and practicly pointless fighters it was so that he could put more money to super weapons, to be honest that wasn't really a good idea taking money out that area he should of spent less on star destroyers.
Anyone agree with me on that?
-
I just realised why he always brought cheap and practicly pointless fighters it was so that he could put more money to super weapons, to be honest that wasn't really a good idea taking money out that area he should of spent less on star destroyers.
Anyone agree with me on that?
Kind of hard to suppress planets with fighters rather than Destroyers(unless you are Rogue Squadron that is)
As for tactical genius, well Shadow Hand was 90 % effective as a military campaign and it was allegedly orchestrated by Palpatine himself.(Granted it owed a lot of success to pure overwhelming force)
I will concede the point Corey makes about the Clone Wars though.
-
How is it a tiny astromech droid made for repair work can somehow hijack both a 17km long warship through hyperspace, and an entire fleet of world-eating superweapons into destroying themselves?
Oh, and it just so happens that the Galaxy Gun is firing a missile just at the exact same time the Eclipse II rams into it, what a coincidence!
-
I just realised why he always brought cheap and practicly pointless fighters it was so that he could put more money to super weapons, to be honest that wasn't really a good idea taking money out that area he should of spent less on star destroyers.
Anyone agree with me on that?
What i mean is the empire had a massive amount of star destroyers which would of been vunerable tofighters and their cheap and mass produce TIE fighters could not of done much to help unless they were in huge numbers and before anyone goes on about other imperial fighters is the fact is their were so few of them because they were expensive to build and the empire wanted cheap and replaceable fighters and when they decided to change that idea it was to late.
-
Well to be fair the ISDs were only vulnerable to TRD with a LOT of fighters against it. It took multiple volleys of Proton Torps just to bring down a SECTION of the ships shield while they would have to dodge the TIEs too. The ISD's weapons were not designed to kill fighters but they certainly COULD do that through volume of fire alone.
-
Actually he had a decent grasp of strategy. Evidenced by his management of both sides of the Clone Wars, the ability to maintain his rule for 19 years suppressing opposition before it arose and his contingency plans in the event of his death point to a devious and complex mind. He employed many truly great strategists and recognized tactical worth. That being said his major weakness was actually from his Sith training. His belief that sheer terror and power coupled with manipulation were the keys to long term stability.
The TIE Interceptors were very good fighters that were decent quality and cheap to make, in competent hands a TIE could beat an X wing hands down. The main point of the Empire's fleet strategy was large scale suppression using the ISDs to deal with planets and assaults with the fighters there mainly to screen the main line ships. This can be an effective strategy when fighting fleets or governing large expanses of territory but it makes chasing down Rebels who use the "Stateless Strategy" very difficult. The ISD was by and by the most widely used and competent ship produced by any of the factions in the Galactic Civil war.
As for a barely armed sheet of toilet paper I assume you mean the Superweapons? The First Death Star fell prey to the acts of Luck and Vader's idiotic plan to let the rebels have the plans without altering them in any way or just killing the heroes as they tried to fly off the Death Star. The Second was not completed, it did not share the same flaw as the first one and actually had some interesting conventional uses in war as well as terror. The Tarkin, Eye of Palpatine, Death Star Prototype, and Sun Crusher were mere prototypes that were not meant to be deployed on a full scale military level until finished with testing(as they never were) The World Devastators WERE unstoppable and carried out their task very efficiently but were stopped by let's face it a crap plot device. The Eclipse I and II were magnificent weapons of war that were again victims of plot devices as they and the Sovereigns could hold their own against a fleet without support. Each served a specific purpose and were only destroyed due to the fact the Heroes ALWAYS win in the end so the things had to be stopped in increasingly unbelievable ways. Personally I think the superweapons far from being wastes when coupled with proper military support or tactics were very effective and creative.
Isn't an unstoppable superweapon in and of itself a bad plot device created to make their inevitable destruction that much more shocking?
-
yes yes it is. ;D :HA:
-
Isn't an unstoppable superweapon in and of itself a bad plot device created to make their inevitable destruction that much more shocking?
Yeah...
-
Actually he had a decent grasp of strategy. Evidenced by his management of both sides of the Clone Wars, the ability to maintain his rule for 19 years suppressing opposition before it arose and his contingency plans in the event of his death point to a devious and complex mind. He employed many truly great strategists and recognized tactical worth. That being said his major weakness was actually from his Sith training. His belief that sheer terror and power coupled with manipulation were the keys to long term stability.
The TIE Interceptors were very good fighters that were decent quality and cheap to make, in competent hands a TIE could beat an X wing hands down. The main point of the Empire's fleet strategy was large scale suppression using the ISDs to deal with planets and assaults with the fighters there mainly to screen the main line ships. This can be an effective strategy when fighting fleets or governing large expanses of territory but it makes chasing down Rebels who use the "Stateless Strategy" very difficult. The ISD was by and by the most widely used and competent ship produced by any of the factions in the Galactic Civil war.
As for a barely armed sheet of toilet paper I assume you mean the Superweapons? The First Death Star fell prey to the acts of Luck and Vader's idiotic plan to let the rebels have the plans without altering them in any way or just killing the heroes as they tried to fly off the Death Star. The Second was not completed, it did not share the same flaw as the first one and actually had some interesting conventional uses in war as well as terror. The Tarkin, Eye of Palpatine, Death Star Prototype, and Sun Crusher were mere prototypes that were not meant to be deployed on a full scale military level until finished with testing(as they never were) The World Devastators WERE unstoppable and carried out their task very efficiently but were stopped by let's face it a crap plot device. The Eclipse I and II were magnificent weapons of war that were again victims of plot devices as they and the Sovereigns could hold their own against a fleet without support. Each served a specific purpose and were only destroyed due to the fact the Heroes ALWAYS win in the end so the things had to be stopped in increasingly unbelievable ways. Personally I think the superweapons far from being wastes when coupled with proper military support or tactics were very effective and creative.
Actually the reason why R2-D2 did kicked the World Devastators ass is because Palapatine allowed it. he thought he was playing both sides as he was in the Clone Wars but because he underestimated both Luke and Leia and a certain astromech droid he was defeated. Although the writers did not know this at the time it can be excused as such.
Also the Dark Empire comic book series I found was a little over the top (I mean NO ONE heard about the Eclipse or World Devastator or Galaxy Gun in the 7 years after the Battle of Endor). Heck even Timothy Zahn didn't like it he implied it when Mara Jade did not believe that the clone Emperor was real (you can read it in the Thrawn Duology).
My vote goes to Thrawn because he anticipated the Yuuzhan Vong war and how to fight it before anyone else. Even the Emperor himself. Also he only used his skills when necessary because even he recognized that he would not live forever and he wanted the Imperials to be ready for war.
-
Actually the reason why R2-D2 did kicked the World Devastators ass is because Palapatine allowed it. he thought he was playing both sides as he was in the Clone Wars but because he underestimated both Luke and Leia and a certain astromech droid he was defeated. Although the writers did not know this at the time it can be excused as such.
Also the Dark Empire comic book series I found was a little over the top (I mean NO ONE heard about the Eclipse or World Devastator or Galaxy Gun in the 7 years after the Battle of Endor). Heck even Timothy Zahn didn't like it he implied it when Mara Jade did not believe that the clone Emperor was real (you can read it in the Thrawn Duology).
My vote goes to Thrawn because he anticipated the Yuuzhan Vong war and how to fight it before anyone else. Even the Emperor himself. Also he only used his skills when necessary because even he recognized that he would not live forever and he wanted the Imperials to be ready for war.
As I said, plot device. Although it can definitely be argued that Sidious had become insanely overconfident(what with returning from death, superweapons and pretty overwhelming military success in Shadow Hand) and eventually planned to use only the Dark Side of the Force to suppress the galaxy(totally ludicrous)
I also hated the Dark Empire comics, I found them ridiculously un SWs like in their feel and art was utterly appalling.
-
Dark Empire had its unlikable moments, but it set the stage for some interesting stuff, like the Crimson Empire series.
-
Dark Empire had its unlikable moments, but it set the stage for some interesting stuff, like the Crimson Empire series.
I will definitely grant that point. I think Crimson Empire is fantastic and the duel between Jax and Kanos is one of the most epic EU in my opinion.
-
A video game about Kir Kanos would be epic!
-
It would be kinda fun I'd think.
-
A video game about Kir Kanos would be epic!
Actually I found a mod of SW Battlefront that had something like that, called Dark Times. It had Kir Kanos as a hero and hinted at a future storyline with him.
-
That sounds cool, I'll have to check it out. Royal Guards have always been a personal favorite, I hope we see them in action in Star Wars Rebels.
EDIT: No More Royal Tards lol
-
That sounds cool, I'll have to check it out. Royal Tuards have always been a personal favorite, I hope we see them in action in Star Wars Rebels.
Makes it look like you're calling them royal tards... :D
-
Oops. Fixing now. Sometimes I hate small keyboards.
-
Think it was funnier originally. :D
-
well dark Empire palps definitely qualifies as a royal tard. :laugh:
-
I think it's funny how almost all the votes are for Pellaeon and Thrawn. Everyone else is basically being ignored. :)
-
I think it's funny how almost all the votes are for Pellaeon and Thrawn. Everyone else is basically being ignored. :)
Isn't that how polls normally go?
-
Well, yeah, but still. You'd think considering Pally was one of the major characters in EVERY movie, that he'd be more popular.
-
generic propecia uk (https://propecia2buy.top/) Resume your normal schedule with the next dose
-
Don’t buy from sites that say their misoprostol dosage (https://misoprostol5f.com/) , a proven treatment for your condition