Thrawn's Revenge
Imperial Civil War [Empire at War] => Discussion, Suggestions & Feedback => Topic started by: Lucinator on August 27, 2010, 01:29:24 AM
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Huray the mod is out. To help the moders ive started a balance issues section
Mine is with the super stardestroyers, I sent in 45 b-wings, three moncals and Akbar, and they still lost.
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Were they all killed by the SSD or did other enemy ships (ie fighters) have anything to do with it?
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only the ssd there was nothing in the system except it and one level one station
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SSDs and stations have fighter compliments though. Did you take them out before attacking the SSD or just go straight for the SSD? Bomber spam doesn't work unless they're covered properly, proton torpedos still go through shields but they aren't especially powerful.
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yes, and did you see how many hardpoints it had.
found another one, AAC missiles do almost no damage, especially given their cost
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No offense, but why would you try to take on a Super Star Destroyer with only 4 capital ships, and 45 bomber squadrons?
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because capital ships get fried, you try and take it out with mon cals.
No offense, but why would you try to take on a Super Star Destroyer with only 4 capital ships, and 45 bomber squadrons?
I finally beat it, took 5 moncals, 4 assault frigates 5 correlian gunships and 150 bombers, lost 4 moncals, 2assultfrigates, and 98bombers
other balance issues:
admiral Akbar is still same as vinilla game, should be beefed up
MC-80b weaker than victory II class
in cannon was stronger than imperial I (though weaker than imperial II)
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If you're using that much to kill an ssd you're doing something wrong. Dane kiet has beaten 2 in one battle with a lot less lost units. Home One is the same as the vanilla version because the vanilla version was way overpowered. The mon cals from the rebellion are all converted luxury cruisers, not warships, and home one is no different.
When using bombers, they have to be protected. Fighters and bombers aren't damage sponges anymore. Do you mean 150 bombers, or 150 squadrons?
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one should mention that movie homeone is 2.5km min and has only slightly less weapons than a stardestoyer, and is cannonly supposed to beat a stardestoyer.
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Uh no. The canon length for Home One is 1,300 meters. 300 meters less than an ISD. Canon Home One also only has 36 Turbolasers, and 36 Ion Cannons. The ISDI on the other hand has 6 Dual Heavy Turbolasers, 2 Dual Heavy Ion Cannons, 2 Quad Heavy Turbolasers, 3 Triple Medium Turbolasers, 2 Medium Turbolasers, 60 Heavy Turbolasers, and 60 Ion Cannons.
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Since Zer has posted the canon ones, I'll post the mod ones. The ISd has had two laser cannons changed into ion cannons since release but still more or less the same as what you guys are playing with.
Home One:
Turbolasers: 4
Ion Cannons: 4
Imperial-I Star Destroyer:
Turbolasers: 10
Ion Cannons: 6
So if anything, the ISD should have some of those Turbolasers changed to doubles or heavies, but when that happens it becomes more powerful than is reasonable for game purposes.
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i know it been said i find the SDs somewhat weak (at least by cannon)
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Weaker than what? While the Executor was obviously more than a match for an ISD, it wasn't until the development of the MC80B 1.5 years after Endor that any other ship was able to almost match an ISD although it still couldn't quite do it. Then came the MC90 and the New Class ships, but the ISDII was still regarded as advanced and powerful well into the Vong War.
And obviously you aren't actually going by canon, so please stop saying that you are.
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several things, one zer's stardestroyer stats are wrong, the total is 60tubolaser, 60 ioncannons, that includes the quad hvy turolasers of ISDI and the octumplete On ISDII. Note I was referring to the size of home one in the movie ROTJ see http://www.theforce.net/swtc/mcc.html#home1 and one should note in the vanilla game the ship is 3.2km long.(based on comparisons with stardestroyers)I know it's cannon lenth is less, however the sorce for these lenths are old sorcebooks and no novel lists it's lenth so one can be left open to inperitation as noted on wookipedia.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Home_One#cite_note-FF-1
And I acknowledged that it had less weapons but with vastly greater shielding. Also if you look at cannon mc-80b's were supposed to be able to beat ISDI's, Mc90's could beat ISDII's,
Lastly I'm seeing a lot of negative comments, I was just trying to offer suggestions of possible balance issues, I was hoping others would post what they saw as balance issues. I'm sorry if these suggestions offend anyone i'm not trying to do that.
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I don't see what size has to do with power. If it was designed a warship, then there would probably be some correlation, but it wasn't. Even the site you're posting as your source is saying the same armament as we are, but with 7 fewer turbolasers. In that case the only thing we could do, even by your sources, is possibly increase shielding and maybe switch the turbos and ions with heavies.
And we're not getting offended, so don't worry about that. These aren't personal attacks against you either. If you want to see offensive, you should see how the team talks to each other.
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I'm going stay out of this, and return to the subject this topic was started for.
1. The ISD octuple turbolaser cannons are way too underpowered. When a turbolaser hits your ship, you know it. When Eight heavies hit it at the same time, you don't feel it; your dead.
2. Storm troopers die way to easily. Yes, I know that since the death of the emperor, they kind of just gave up, but they were still better than rebels.
3. AT-ATs also die way to easily. The rebels could only take them out with tow-cable runs, starfighters using proton torps, or by infiltrating them. Taking them out with plex missile launchers and T2-Bs just shouldn't be possible.
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i agree with caps
and yes im going by cannon
SD may be strong in the mod but just because all units in space look underpowered
everything goes slow a hit in unshielded ship is deadly, my suggestion is make the shields and guns stronger and the hull weaker
its my opinion and please respect it
i fought the moncal80b in the mod with an ISDII plus fighter compliment and i was about to loose if another of my ships hadnt arrived
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majestics seem out of place for their tech level, they seem slow and cost too much in pop points, they take up as many as a stardestroyer or moncal.
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AT-ATs also die way to easily. The rebels could only take them out with tow-cable runs, starfighters using proton torps, or by infiltrating them. Taking them out with plex missile launchers and T2-Bs just shouldn't be possible.
I don't remember having any particular issues with AT-ATs being weak but I'll take them for a test run tonight. As for plexs and T2-B's taking them out, we simply can't make AT-Ats immune to them. That would mean that the unit would be invincible to certain types of units. This would be pretty unbalanced and unfair in skirmish and GC modes. For example in GC if you had a whole bunch of units, but none of them were the particular type that could take out an AT-AT you'd be essentially f*cked and would end up losing a planet because you simply did not have the right units at the time. Not particularly fair.
its my opinion and please respect it
Nobody is disrespecting your opinion or in any way being particularly abrasive towards you.
@Lucinator
All Corey and Zer stating is that based on the canon specs of the ships in question and the origins of the ships (converted cruise liner vs. designated war ship) we are happy with the way they are in the mod at the moment and that there's a 99.9% chance that your suggestions won't be implemented in the mod. Frankly, no one else on the team (or based on the posts) people that have downloaded the mod are having the same issues you are having with destroying ships. If you don't like it you can always edit the XMLs afterwards to modify the ships to your own personal liking. ;)
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- land-based Turbolaser Turrets seems overpowered; I know they can be overwhelmed but AI is too stupid to attack en masse.
- Rebel commando's bomb is far too weak; tossed one at an AT-ST and i doubt it did 1/20 damage; I think it should have caused maybe 1/2 damage no?
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fair enough
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Post edited, most of that was directed at Lucinator. Sorry for any confusion. :o I got a couple of usernames mixed up there. =D
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I'm going stay out of this, and return to the subject this topic was started for.
1. The ISD octuple turbolaser cannons are way too underpowered. When a turbolaser hits your ship, you know it. When Eight heavies hit it at the same time, you don't feel it; your dead.
They are more or less proportional to the rest of the turbolasers.
The damage values in the beta are as follows:
Single: 5
Double: 10
Quad: 20
Octuple: 35
- land-based Turbolaser Turrets seems overpowered; I know they can be overwhelmed but AI is too stupid to attack en masse.
This is something I've had a problem with for a while but just haven't gotten around to changing. It's fixed now though.
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O.K. I would suggest making the Octuple damage value 40, since 8 guns times 5 damage is 40. However, your mod, your rules.
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shouldn't Knight Hammer have cloaking?
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I was recently playing Operation Shadow Hand, and noticed that the Super laser is completely useless if you actually want a challenge, since it can destroy literally anything bigger than a corvette. Is it possible to limit it to say, 1-4 seconds, so that it would take out frigates and some capital ships, but not kill a SSD or a space station in one shot?
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No, the most you can do is make it use <Applicable_Units> as I recall. SSDs should not be able to be targeted if I recall as well.
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If you want a challenge, play the other side in that campaign =D
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The Sacheen costs 1850 credits and carries 2 K-wing squadrons. K-wings cost 850 credits each, totaling to 1700 credits, almost as much as a Sacheen. 1 squadron perhaps?
EDIT: The above is in skirmish mode. Also,
In my opinion, the Lancers have to much health. It takes way to long for a capital ship to destroy one.
Nevermind...
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I have been philosophizing about Art of War from the Remnant perspective. It seems difficult for them to enjoy the interesting era progression enjoyed by the Republic when a leader is assassinated, as there in no way for them to evolve/devolve. It seems as if most players would play it through in the Isard Era, unless by some grave miscalculation or intentional suicide mission, Ysanne dies. I was kicking around the idea of how a goal-oriented campaign might drive the storyline better for the Imperials perhaps, maybe even time sensitive missions, or perhaps certain timeline checkpoints that occur naturally at set dates. For instance, if Ysanne is not defeated by day X, Reborn Palpatine appears with X fleet on X planet, and the timeline progresses. alternatively, maybe bringing back research centers to increase unit options, while losing leaders (esp after palpatine) loses/changes the option set. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this?
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Well the point is that you really don't want to progress eras as the Imperial Remnant. So you are forced to protect your leaders. But your leaders are usually the most powerful units you have. So by protecting your leader zealously, you are taking away your most powerful unit. So it's a trade off, and one I think works quite well.
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i appreciate your point, but the main reason i raise the question is because the empire develops some interesting units, like the Tank Droid and Sovereign SSDs, that would otherwise be unavailable to the Remnant unless the leader is lost, but make things more interesting. Perhaps the re-institution of research labs might offer this dynamic much more easily than re-inventing the wheel, which is a very good wheel at that.
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Then you can always just play the Palpatine GC, you don't have to play the Art of War GCs. The point of the Art of War GCs is that they are supposed to represent a realistic progression of the types of units available to each faction as time progresses. If you want to play as Palpatine in the Art of War GC, then just send off Isard and Thrawn to die. But the system is available for those who want to have a natural progression of eras.
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fair enough!
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I have rethought my opinion of lancers not being overpowered (Or maybe the AI arent hard/smart enough.)
Regardless, I should not be able to do this on hard with 2 lancers and no space station.
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt83/Watwar5/Thrawns%20Revenge/2lancers.jpg
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Only problem I see with Lancers is that they are to fast. ISDs are supposed to be faster than them.
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Only problem I see with Lancers is that they are to fast. ISDs are supposed to be faster than them.
mabey their cost should go up
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Is it just me or are the Republic SD's more powerful than the nebula's?
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Even though I hate it, I got around and played some Skirmish space maps. Suffice it to say, I have a few things that I at least want to bring to people's attention.
God tier: New Republic: Talon Karrde/Mining Station/Tech 2/Millennium Falcon = nigh-unbeatable rush.
Let me explain. Talon Kaarde's speed, firepower, and hit points make him un-counter able when it comes to blowing up mining stations. He can't deal with anything else (accuracy), but crippling the oppositions' income with impunity is a game winner. The Millennium Falcon...gods above this thing goes through fighters like a scythe through wheat. We're talking ending a Tie Interceptor squadron with two volleys. Once this thing is on the field, only an incredibly overwhelming number of fighters is going to be able to overcome a well-played Falcon.
Given that nothing other than fighters and heroes are buildable for Skirmish, well, that's about all of the firepower available from the other side countered. Hero squadrons? Ha. They get killed just as easily. The cheap mid-game Dreadnaught allows the New Republic to crush any well-protected Mining Stations that the Karrdes were unable to kill, rendering the opposition pretty much helpless.
I suggest nerfing their Skirmish fighters, or doing something about the nasty combination they have.
Second tier: Empire of the Hand. Aside from a couple things, fairly well balanced. Their own anti-fighter ship, the Hand of Judgment, dies against the Falcon mainly because the Falcon's guns are instant hit, and the Judgment's are not. The lack of vessels above the Hand of Judgment's class until Tech 3 is nicely balanced by how horrifically deadly the Scythe bombers are. They can actually last a while before being worn down by the Alliance's group.
The Judgment is a nice counter against enemy hero squadrons, allowing the good Hand bombers to do their thing, but simply isn't enough to deal with the Republic, not to mention that the AI doesn't actually build the blasted thing. Also: Is it supposed to be both that fast, and have that slowly regenerating shields?
Dead last: Imperial. Remnant. Good god where do I start? Their fighters suck. Regular TIEs are entirely useless, and Interceptors are only slightly better. In the Galactic Conquest mode this is compensated via overwhelming numbers and reasonable anti-fighter frigates, but Skirmish has neither of these factors. Given the emphasis on fighter operations, well, yeah. A second nerfing factor is that their second-tier SD dies permanently, no respawn, unlike literally every other hero in the Skirmish mode. Without respawn-capable capital firepower, they have nothing to defend against the mid-tier Dread of the Republic, or the late-tier Phalanx that the Hand has, ignoring the complete lack of early game.
Niles Ferrier is worthless. He doesn't have the anti-fighter guns to destroy a squadron, or the concussion missile numbers to kill a mining station. Or anything else for that matter. The fighter aces are just enough to bring the fighter level from completely abysmal to merely horrible, but are too expensive to really make a difference.
The second tier SD would counter the Dreadnaught and force people to make a concentrated fighter push against it, but since the Empire winds up losing nearly all its fighters and mining stations by the time this thing is available, it dies to everyone else's fighters
Tier three is never gotten to. Without cheats.
AI Issues: As mentioned above, it doesn't build the Hand of Judgement. Also, it doesn't have as much of an emphasis on constructing mining stations as it should, delaying the New Republic AI's inevitable win, and simply causing the others to fall flat after the first rush.
Hope this helps.
EDIT: I was playing on "Hard". If the other difficulties are different, I apologize for the trouble.
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On which map did you play skirmish mode on? I'm assuming you played on a map not made for the mod. If thats the case you probably didn't have any shipyards available to construct units. All the faction's units are available in skirmish mode but in order to construct them you will need to play with shipyards available.
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I was playing on The Battle, and The Final Battle.
I'll try some other maps next, but the only shipyards I've seen are Merchants, which do precisely zip.
EDIT: Okay, so I want the ThrRev: prefixed maps. Thanks.
Now I feel kind of bad for typing all that up.