Posted by: The Fist Of Justice
« on: July 19, 2017, 03:11:00 PM »Where my true loyalties will always lie, the Empire.
Besides, that's my only shot at commanding an Executor-Class.
Besides, that's my only shot at commanding an Executor-Class.
Posted by: Pali
« on: June 06, 2017, 04:53:35 PM »The post I lost earlier would've gone through your last big post almost point for point, but my iPad has problems with this site and lost it - often the chatbox won't show, and sometimes the formatting for the entire site is wrong. I think it was trying to stay "current" with the chatbox.
I tend to agree that this thread has run its course. Fun chatting with you all.
I tend to agree that this thread has run its course. Fun chatting with you all.
Posted by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus
« on: June 06, 2017, 02:50:30 PM »I think you may need to read what I posted more closely. I said if you are rooting for the humans just because they are humans, despite them being slavers, then you are rooting for the wrong side (for bad reasons was the intended implication). I did not say anyone here was doing so, I was simply responding to a suggested reason that people might be identifying with the Empire.
Now, do I think that rooting for the Empire is rooting for the racist slavers? Yes, because the Empire was objectively a state that enslaved along racial lines - this is a fact so far as the fiction goes. There are certainly plenty of other aspects to the Empire, but racism and slavery are part and parcel of what it was. I'm not saying anyone is rooting for the Empire because of the racism and slavery, but I do find it disturbing how those two aspects seem to be acceptable in the name of stability and order for some.
Fair enough, I apologize again, I didn't mean to be rude. Well, when it comes to "rooting", I personally root for the Imperial Remnant under Pellaeon, with no racism and slavery (I think I said it already at the beginning of this thread). That's a regime I would be proudly loyal to. The thing about the Empire that I always found acceptable was its military might and willingness to protect its citizens at all times (as long as those citizens are human, regrettably, I admit). WarlordOfWildSpace was right when he said that people lean towards the Empire partly because of its humanocentrism. I do not condone it, and agree that such prejudice is definitely appalling, however, maybe it was indeed a starting point for my acknowledgement of the Empire, I'm not afraid to admit it. It's still much more than that, but I don't really want to continue the discussion in this thread, since I already said everything there was to say earlier, in my two large posts that were barely commented upon. I still do not agree entirely with your position, but I respect it, and due to aforementioned reasons I will not comment in this thread any further (unless someone posts something completely ridiculous, but I'll still try to ignore it). Regardless, it was quite interesting talking to you, so I thank you for your time, and have a great day!
Posted by: rednax
« on: June 06, 2017, 05:04:01 AM »Agreed, I would be fine with living in a slightly less stable state that I agree with morally, no slavery, little racism, freedom of speech and democracy. I'm not about to give up what i believe in for a more 'stable' government.
On another note is the empire really that stable? Once the emperor was kill 95% of the empire was lost to petty warlords and rebels in just 15 years. Even if he wasn't killed by the rebellion his reign would have ended eventually (even with clone bodys)
On another note is the empire really that stable? Once the emperor was kill 95% of the empire was lost to petty warlords and rebels in just 15 years. Even if he wasn't killed by the rebellion his reign would have ended eventually (even with clone bodys)
Posted by: Pali
« on: June 05, 2017, 03:52:49 PM »That's a bit of an oversimplification, though, don't you think?... I'm sorry for my tone, but I don't think it's fair of you to say so. I certainly do not identify myself with the racial prejudices of the Empire, and it never was amongst my reasoning to "root" for them.
I think you may need to read what I posted more closely. I said if you are rooting for the humans just because they are humans, despite them being slavers, then you are rooting for the wrong side (for bad reasons was the intended implication). I did not say anyone here was doing so, I was simply responding to a suggested reason that people might be identifying with the Empire.
Now, do I think that rooting for the Empire is rooting for the racist slavers? Yes, because the Empire was objectively a state that enslaved along racial lines - this is a fact so far as the fiction goes. There are certainly plenty of other aspects to the Empire, but racism and slavery are part and parcel of what it was. I'm not saying anyone is rooting for the Empire because of the racism and slavery, but I do find it disturbing how those two aspects seem to be acceptable in the name of stability and order for some.
Posted by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus
« on: June 05, 2017, 07:25:29 AM »If you're rooting for the humans when they are the oppressors and slavers just because they are human and the slaves aliens, then you are rooting for the wrong team. It may be natural, but that doesn't make it right.
That's a bit of an oversimplification, though, don't you think? Obviously not, since you said it, so it's a rhetorical question. It seems to me that you have been oversimplifying things throughout this entire thread, maybe to not be at risk of expressing controversial opinions, I don't know. I hope you realize that it's only your opinion that you are expressing, after all, similarly to how what I say is only mine. I can't imagine what empowers you to declare what is right and what is wrong for everyone. I'm sorry for my tone, but I don't think it's fair of you to say so. I certainly do not identify myself with the racial prejudices of the Empire, and it never was amongst my reasoning to "root" for them. And I can't imagine anyone, certainly on this thread and forum, advocating such practices. This would be a much more prudent discussion without so much bias, to be honest.
Posted by: Pali
« on: June 05, 2017, 03:25:25 AM »For those with loftier ideals, this easy to ignore, but in most sci-fis, don't you root for the humans almost automatically?
Yes, but that's because humans are usually the main characters, and the main characters are usually the people you root for in a story. Humans are the main characters to keep the audience engaged and empathetic with them, as its easier to put yourself in another human's shoes than in those of a creature with four legs and a tail (it's also easier to convincingly write internal perspectives of humans rather than try to invent alien thinking, which is why most aliens in most sci-fi or fantasy are essentially just humans-but-different-looking so that we can empathize with them as well).
If you're rooting for the humans when they are the oppressors and slavers just because they are human and the slaves aliens, then you are rooting for the wrong team. It may be natural, but that doesn't make it right.
Posted by: WarlordOfWildSpace
« on: June 05, 2017, 01:13:27 AM »It seems like a lot of us earthlings like the Empire more than the Rebellion, which seems likely, considering that we are also humanocentric (even more specific in some cases), and the Empire's military and political system can be accessed by humans of any social class and you can advance based on skill and loyalty (plus a lot of boot licking)
Meanwhile the Rebellion/NR is headed by mostly people with old families/noble house backgrounds, advancement is based largely on who you know (a number one complaint in the working world) and humans are not the dominant force. For those with loftier ideals, this easy to ignore, but in most sci-fis, don't you root for the humans almost automatically?
Meanwhile the Rebellion/NR is headed by mostly people with old families/noble house backgrounds, advancement is based largely on who you know (a number one complaint in the working world) and humans are not the dominant force. For those with loftier ideals, this easy to ignore, but in most sci-fis, don't you root for the humans almost automatically?
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: June 04, 2017, 07:24:57 PM »Posted by: Revanchist
« on: June 03, 2017, 09:14:52 PM »Which is really what most of the Galaxy did even if they didn't like the Empire. They were still waiting to see whether the NR would live up to its promises and thus the safe bet was the just hang back and watch.
Posted by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus
« on: June 03, 2017, 01:07:47 PM »Well, I had a much longer and more detailed post almost ready to go, but my iPad decided to eat it and I don't have the time tonight to rewrite it. So rather than continue to get bogged down in minutia (and frustrate myself by retyping a bunch), I think we've gone in the wrong direction for this post and I'd like to try and put it back on track. We've been discussing the Rebellion/NR and Empire from an historical perspective, analyzing mistakes and the like, but the original question of the thread is which would we prefer to live under - and I don't think we should be answering that with the benefit of hindsight, but as a person in the moment.
So I say think of it this way: you are an Imperial citizen living on Coruscant when the Battle of Endor happens and you hear the Emperor and Vader are dead. You know nothing for certain of what will come, you've never heard of the Vong, but you are pretty well informed on recent history and current events. What is your reaction?
I feel for you, that's sad to hear, but it happens sometimes, unfortunately, I lost so many messages that way, too.
As for the point of this thread, I think I already answered it at the very start, by saying that I'm only speaking for myself and no one else, and that I wouldn't feel safe living under the New Republic, feeling that the Empire (at this moment of time the IR) is much better qualified/suited to rule the galaxy. I wouldn't have completely trusted the Remnant under Isard and the reborn Palpatine, however I'd maintain the pretence of my loyalty to them, because I still view the NR as a destabilizing element in the galaxy with unclear goals and motivations. I do think, though, that the IR flourished under Thrawn and much later Pellaeon, who abolished xenophobia and pretty much everything that people hated about the Empire. But to answer your question, if the choice was only between the Empire under Pestage (right after Endor) or the NR, I would still choose the former. So, I'd remain loyal to the Empire. But that's only what I would do, I'm not saying whether it's a right thing to do for everyone or not, and I understand and respect every other opinion and choice on the matter.
Posted by: Pali
« on: June 03, 2017, 09:24:47 AM »I think it worth pointing out that Borsk Fey'lya, on the uncool scale, is no match for enslaving billions. 
He's also not someone anyone at the time of Endor would have yet heard of, so he doesn't fit within the bounds of my question.
He's also not someone anyone at the time of Endor would have yet heard of, so he doesn't fit within the bounds of my question.Posted by: rednax
« on: June 03, 2017, 08:15:42 AM »Unless we're in the lower levels of Coruscant we've probably been flooded with imperial propaganda. It's almost impossible to get an unbiased view.
So here's a really basic comparison
Empire: a strong mostly stable humanocentric government that's effectively governed by the military. Cool things like safer galaxy and ability to get high in the military if your good enough. Not cool things like slavery haveing a Sith as your emperor and a silly amount of oppression (like that planet from wraith squadron where the empire technologically regressed the entire planet to the medieval age and makes them crawl in the mud and beg for food, now that's one planet you don't want to serve the empire under) Will not stop until everyone is a cog in the great machine of the empire.
Republics: a less strong less stable, but not actually weak government, started by some people who didn't like the empire. Cool things like equality the and democracy also has Jedi sometimes. Not cool things like Borsk Feyla. And maybe other politics? Also do some very dumb things sometimes. (Mostly Borsks fault) Has a weaker military but is actively working on making the Galaxy a better place.
(This is assuming the empire under Palps or Isard or something.)
(Feel free to add other points, but don't be full of bias (looking at you admiralthrawn2))
So here's a really basic comparison
Empire: a strong mostly stable humanocentric government that's effectively governed by the military. Cool things like safer galaxy and ability to get high in the military if your good enough. Not cool things like slavery haveing a Sith as your emperor and a silly amount of oppression (like that planet from wraith squadron where the empire technologically regressed the entire planet to the medieval age and makes them crawl in the mud and beg for food, now that's one planet you don't want to serve the empire under) Will not stop until everyone is a cog in the great machine of the empire.
Republics: a less strong less stable, but not actually weak government, started by some people who didn't like the empire. Cool things like equality the and democracy also has Jedi sometimes. Not cool things like Borsk Feyla. And maybe other politics? Also do some very dumb things sometimes. (Mostly Borsks fault) Has a weaker military but is actively working on making the Galaxy a better place.
(This is assuming the empire under Palps or Isard or something.)
(Feel free to add other points, but don't be full of bias (looking at you admiralthrawn2))
Posted by: GreyStar
« on: June 03, 2017, 01:14:20 AM »Flock to the NR where I don't have to pray to a dead religion for the sake of a guy who killed trillions for lols. Or pretend to be racist. Or pretend I like slavery.
Posted by: Pali
« on: June 02, 2017, 11:48:21 PM »no offense but along with the threat of being shot by imperial forces the rebel invasion of coursant would bring doom and ruin to many especially when the Lysanyka is extracted by that crazy bitch IceHeart
You are looking with hindsight - I'm asking for a decision given available information in the moment.