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Topic Summary

Posted by: Pali
« on: January 27, 2017, 04:47:59 PM »

Every country cares about its national image, North Korea included - they're just trying to present a different kind of image.  NK is like a little dog that barks and growls a lot to make itself seem badass.
Posted by: Revanchist
« on: January 27, 2017, 04:25:35 PM »

If you don't care about your national image (north Korea for instance), you could just spread rumors that you torture people and it could help suppress the population.

Tarkin Doctrine right there.
Posted by: Helix345
« on: January 27, 2017, 02:45:38 PM »

If you don't care about your national image (north Korea for instance), you could just spread rumors that you torture people and it could help suppress the population. for a country that interacts in positive ways with other first world countries, this probably isn't the bet option.
Posted by: Pali
« on: January 27, 2017, 08:10:27 AM »

"Torture has its uses."

Intelligence experts disagree.

Edit: Keep in mind that being "civilized" has benefits beyond the ethical, and beyond torture's lack of reliability.  Use of torture degrades our image across the world, which both hinders intelligence gathering by poisoning community and diplomatic relations and increases the number of enemies willing to attempt to strike at us in the first place.  Holding the moral high ground has real, pragmatic value in international affairs.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: January 27, 2017, 01:58:13 AM »

Torture has it's uses. Obviously it's not a first go to, but at the end of the day you have to decide what is more important, information a known killer and hostile has that could save lives or end his group or being 'civilized'
Bribery, deals and incentives can all come into play too.

The issue with torture is that you can actually achieve an opposite effect, people telling you what you WANT to hear even if it isn't true just to get you to stop. Fear and pain are powerful motivators but they have limits.
Posted by: Pali
« on: January 26, 2017, 08:48:27 PM »

good thing you are not in the empire, you would get thrown out for your arguments, or just that statement alone. but, as part of the PA and the NR, i agree

In fairness, as far as I can recall, Imperial interrogations that were actually done for the sake of information gathering usually relied on drugs, not torture.  Vader drugs Leia on the Death Star, Kirtan Loor used interrogation drugs that killed Gil Bastra, Horn was drugged while at Lusankya, etc.  Torture was only used when goals beyond information were the purpose - Vader tortured Han so Luke would sense his pain, Isard and Zsinj used it as part of their brainwashing techniques, and so on.
Posted by: Corey
« on: January 26, 2017, 08:20:11 PM »

the process of getting a dead-end subject to talk through torture sounds far more reasonable than being nice to him.

Not to beat a dead horse, but this kind of thinking can apply in a few places beyond just torture, and it's easy to fall into. I think it's a variation of the fallacy of the undistributed middle:

ie:
We need to do something,
We are doing something,
Therefore we are doing the right thing

Which, logically, does not follow. It's sort of the same thing as if you're waiting for someone to get out of surgery. You may feel the need to do something, (you need the information) and running in to do the surgery yourself (torturing for information) would easily be the most hands-on and extreme thing you can do, but it doesn't mean it's an effective way to handle it. The surgery as performed by the doctors (cooperative information gathering) may not always work, but that does not make the alternative option any more valid.
Posted by: DarthRevansRevenge
« on: January 26, 2017, 08:14:41 PM »

good thing you are not in the empire, you would get thrown out for your arguments, or just that statement alone. but, as part of the PA and the NR, i agree
Posted by: Pali
« on: January 26, 2017, 08:01:34 PM »

Don't think if it as conceding - think of it as being relieved that, even on purely pragmatic grounds, torture isn't something we ever need to do.  That's a good thing. :) This was also my reaction upon learning more about it, as I used to have a similar view (horrible but potentially necessary) myself.
Posted by: Helix345
« on: January 26, 2017, 07:56:42 PM »

I concede
Posted by: Pali
« on: January 26, 2017, 07:44:16 PM »

the process of getting a dead-end subject to talk through torture sounds far more reasonable than being nice to him.

It sounds so, which is why people do it, but it isn't actually the case.  Torture, in the end, is likely to produce one of two results: either you break the subject's resistance to the point where they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear, or it strengthens their resistance and they dig in, accepting the pain until it kills them.  The latter is clearly useless, and while you are likely to get the truth somewhere in the former, it is going to be mixed in with tons of useless or incorrect information, all of which you'll then have to spend time and effort attempting to verify through other means - means which themselves are sufficient, making the torture unnecessary at best and a waste of time and resources as you chase false leads at worst.

It is worth keeping in mind that most terrorists don't think of themselves as evil - they think of us as evil, which is why their acts against us are justified.  When you capture one and torture him, you are reinforcing that viewpoint.  When you instead treat him well, spend time talking with him about yourself and types of experiences you and he share, you instead are showing him that you are human too, that maybe you aren't as evil as he'd been taught, and that maybe what he was doing wasn't as justified as he thought it was.

Consider Hitler's miscalculation in the Battle of Britain - he thought that bombing English cities would devastate the citizenry's willingness to fight.  Instead, it made them even more dedicated to the war.  Hurting someone is not a reliable way to gain their cooperation.
Posted by: Helix345
« on: January 26, 2017, 07:28:06 PM »

the process of getting a dead-end subject to talk through torture sounds far more reasonable than being nice to him.
Posted by: Pali
« on: January 26, 2017, 07:23:37 PM »

I feel that "open, honest cooperation" can be extremely difficult, if not impossible to come across for some subjects. I could be wrong of course, as I didn't fully read the pdf which could have some viable contradictions to this.

Oh, it certainly can be.  Sometimes a subject is simply going to largely be a dead-end as far as extracting useful information goes.  This doesn't make torture into a reliable alternative method of inducing cooperation, however.  Sometimes we are just stuck not having good information to work with and have to accept that.
Posted by: Helix345
« on: January 26, 2017, 07:10:40 PM »

Fair point, yet for conditioning over time torture remains less effective than indirect means of inducing cooperation.  In the end, the Intel needs to be useful whether you are getting it for ten minutes or ten years from now, and anything gained from a subject that is telling you what it thinks you want to hear is going to be unreliable.  Open, honest cooperation is far more valuable.
I feel that "open, honest cooperation" can be extremely difficult, if not impossible to come across for some subjects. I could be wrong of course, as I didn't fully read the pdf which could have some viable contradictions to this.
Posted by: Pali
« on: January 26, 2017, 07:05:40 PM »

Second, I never said "ticking time bomb", I said "torture 1 to save hundreds". The attack we are trying to stop could be in early preparation years from now, which then means that conditioning the subject is a viable option.

Fair point, yet for conditioning over time torture remains less effective than indirect means of inducing cooperation.  In the end, the Intel needs to be useful whether you are getting it for ten minutes or ten years from now, and anything gained from a subject that is telling you what it thinks you want to hear is going to be unreliable.  Open, honest cooperation is far more valuable.

Quote
I really like this source and may use it for future school projects.

Happy to be of service. :) For the record, I recognized from the start that you were arguing Devil's Advocate-style, so at no point have I thought you were personally advocating torture.
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