Possible Republic Unit Roster?

[DarthRevansRevenge]

yeah, that would be what i would do. introduce around Era/Tech 3 with build limit, remove build limit Era 5

[Corey]

We haven't even said what the eras actually are beyond the first release yet...

[DarthRevansRevenge]

i meant if the Clone Wars is divided into 5 eras, i would introduce it era 3 limited build, with it going full right before the end. but, that is assuming it is 5 era

[kucsidave]

I agree with this, like a build limit on earlier eras but as you approach the period right before and after order 66 take the limit off.

That's not really an option since the build limit is tied to the unit itself and you can't just remove it. Unless you make the same unit again without buil-limits, lock it down in every other era, unlock it at the appropiate one and lock down the previous version, and it would still make them not stack since they are technically different units.
Also there is the problem that AI doesn't give a f*** about build limits and just does it's thing.
Best example is FTGU with 6-7 Sovereigns in a fleet

[Corey]

That would just mean making a variant, for the first part. Can also do it a different way through LUA if you're that concerned about the stacking.

[Jorritkarwehr]

Personally, I'd prefer not to see ISDs, TIE fighters and such to be a large part of the mod. Maybe in limited numbers or in a special Rise of the Empire GC, but I don't think it would feel much like a Clone Wars mod if the standard lategame was a transition to Imperial tech.

[t78]

I'd imagine an isd era would have them just as four or five hero units with the first T.I.E model, not the Ln version, to have at least some difference between them and ICW. As small an easter egg as possible without overdoing it.

Personally, I was very intrigued by the suggestion that pre-clone wars conflicts would be looked at. Stark-Hyperspace War battles? Kaloth Battlecruisers? Republic special forces and Tarkin's paramilitary? That would be different.

Come to think of it, how is combat different? Are fighters more/ less important? Cruisers? etc..

I keep imagining a progressions system where with each era/ conflict, you graduallly determine how the seperatists and the republic re-militarise. What ratio clone/non-clone/ droid do you have as troops? All clone? All droid? Non-clone biologicals as auxilliaries? Or the other way round? Quick Spaarti cylinders or the more-stable Kamino process? Converted freightors for the seperatists or specialised proper warships?

Perhaps you could choose a tech tree, or it could be chosen via specific actions like its a strategy rpg? It would be like mass effect, only after you've saved a planet, instead of getting a relationship with a crewmember, you get an army instead!

(I've done some thinking about this, and I can't see how it would be impossible- a large tech tree with 'branches' that can't all be accessed at once doesn't seem impossible....the warlords could end up with very different rosters depending on what they conquer)

I guess I'm trying to suggest a compromise made from everyone's ideas. Of course it depends on the scale of the thing and the plans of the team, so we won't know for sure for some time.

[tlmiller]

I think it would be cool (although possibly hard from a roster perspective) to have the era's be real eras of the republic, being rather historical, with only the last 2 being clone wars era & the titular fall of the republic era.  So that era 1 was...I don't know, the ancient sith wars, era 2 was the Mandalorian wars, etc.  So that while the republic was in every era, the other factions would essentially be completely different in each era.  This would, however, make multi-era games if not impossible, highly...unusual.

[Helix345]

I'd imagine an isd era would have them just as four or five hero units with the first T.I.E model, not the Ln version, to have at least some difference between them and ICW. As small an easter egg as possible without overdoing it.

Personally, I was very intrigued by the suggestion that pre-clone wars conflicts would be looked at. Stark-Hyperspace War battles? Kaloth Battlecruisers? Republic special forces and Tarkin's paramilitary? That would be different.

Come to think of it, how is combat different? Are fighters more/ less important? Cruisers? etc..

I keep imagining a progressions system where with each era/ conflict, you graduallly determine how the seperatists and the republic re-militarise. What ratio clone/non-clone/ droid do you have as troops? All clone? All droid? Non-clone biologicals as auxilliaries? Or the other way round? Quick Spaarti cylinders or the more-stable Kamino process? Converted freightors for the seperatists or specialised proper warships?

Perhaps you could choose a tech tree, or it could be chosen via specific actions like its a strategy rpg? It would be like mass effect, only after you've saved a planet, instead of getting a relationship with a crewmember, you get an army instead!

(I've done some thinking about this, and I can't see how it would be impossible- a large tech tree with 'branches' that can't all be accessed at once doesn't seem impossible....the warlords could end up with very different rosters depending on what they conquer)

I guess I'm trying to suggest a compromise made from everyone's ideas. Of course it depends on the scale of the thing and the plans of the team, so we won't know for sure for some time.

would it be possible to research specific things, and by doing so, lock other things out so that you fall a certain tech tree? So if you play as CIS, you can choose to research cheap freighters, or expensive warships, and by researching one, you lock out the other.

[Corey]

Part of the problem with doing that in the Republic/CIS is they don't have quite as many options as, say, the Empire. It's actually more difficult to get to a full faction roster in the first place, especially for the CIS. If you then start trying to branch it a lot, we'd have to make up a bunch of new stuff, or cut players off from significant parts of the actual CIS roster, which isn't a hugely attractive option. Ratio of, say, Judicial forces to clones will really just depend on what the player decides to do. For stuff starting significantly before the CW, there's the potential for the CIS to unify before the Republic starts the Clone armies and tech.

So, Republic and CIS militarization will follow a pretty consistent path, it'll be more question of rate. Some of the options for further factions, though, comes with the fact that considering how disorganized the military power structures were at the time, there are other groups that had the potential to re-militarize in a big way had certain things gone a different direction. One group in particular wanted to re-emerge as a galactic power, and seemed to have an affinity for  updated version of certain designs, which gives us a lot to work off of, and another had decided it was best not to go full-militarization, but had some military capacity, and if they felt the threatw as great enough, would have been able to remilitarize much earlier than when they actually ended up doing it.

I think it would be cool (although possibly hard from a roster perspective) to have the era's be real eras of the republic, being rather historical, with only the last 2 being clone wars era & the titular fall of the republic era.  So that era 1 was...I don't know, the ancient sith wars, era 2 was the Mandalorian wars, etc.  So that while the republic was in every era, the other factions would essentially be completely different in each era.  This would, however, make multi-era games if not impossible, highly...unusual.

Leaving aside that that's basically several mods worth of content (that would exceed even ICW in scope), the eras and campaigns would be pretty heavily partitioned.

[t78]

"Part of the problem with doing that in the Republic/CIS is they don't have quite as many options as, say, the Empire. It's actually more difficult to get to a full faction roster in the first place, especially for the CIS."

This is true. Might one or two 'flavor' units be doable instead?

A choice between clones or these:  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Special_Tactics_trooper

For the CIS, a generic biological trooper or droids. Also: one significant non-droid ship.

Other than that...  perhaps some starter systems might have consuler modifed cruisers, cloakshapes and dreadnought heavy cruisers. A very limited 'premilitarisation' roster (and stuff some have already included in their imagined clone roster). Special Tactics troopers on the ground. Okay for defence, but little else.

Light shipyards can build these forces but little else. Thus you rely on Kuat/ Rothana for full clone roster (which they have straight away), until you build heavier shipyards/factories elsewhere.

For CIS, some non-buildable cloakshapes and consulers (republic forces possessing slightly divided loyalties, etc)... but these are very rare. They would be quickly expended and replaced by munificents, recusants, and lucrehulks.

CIS also has to industrialise. They have more initial shipyards that can make lucrehulks, munificents, etc.... but no shipyard that can make them all at once.

That's probably still overambitious, but hopefully slightly more realistic in possibilities.

[Corey]

The Republic will definitely be made up of Judicial forces and planetary forces like that before the Clone War eras, assuming we get to a point where we're able to cover it. The CIS isn't really about militarizing, more about about putting the C in CIS.

[Illidan Stormrage]

what about ships like VSD l and ISD l

[WarlordOfWildSpace]

I am very excited by the prospect of the Thrawn's Revenge team covering this era.  I have tried several other clone wars era mods and none of them feel complete, at least in the sense of playing them as a balanced game, something ICW does very well.

If you want a simple way of dividing up the war by eras, you could either do it through the Republic fighters being used, or through the sub-commanders of the CIS.  The fighters are how the 2 cartoons, both 2003 and 2008 display a clear progression in time.

ex. Fighters. Era 1 (Pre-War/Instigating Conflicts) Represented by regional planet starfighters and Judicial fighters such as the original Z-95, A-6 interceptor and Delta series
Era 2 (Early war) Represented by V-19 Torrents
Era 3 (Mid war) Represented by the introduction of 'Clone headhunters' and BTL-B Y-Wings
Era 4 (Late war) Represented by the introduction of ARC-170s
Era 5 (Post war/Separatist Holdouts) Introduction of TIE fighters

The core of the war is really only Eras 2-4, 3 eras, with the stretching of looking at the conflicts that led into the clone wars, like the invasion of Naboo, and the mopping up of Separatist holdouts after the official end of the war.

CIS sub-commanders:  The introduction of new separatist leaders, most of them some form of sith apprentice, also shows a progression, albeit a more confusing one, as the war drags on. The first sub-commander to appear during the pre-war conflicts is Darth Maul.  The Second to appear with the outbreak of the war (even though we learn after that he was involved in the plot the whole time) is Count Dooku, then Asajj Ventriss, and finally General Grievous.  The Separatist holdouts after the war's end also had their own leaders, but the central authority was gone.  Most of these characters overlap in some way, but each is introduced at a turning point in the story.

Maul is introduced when we find out that there is a hidden hand behind what the Trade Federation is doing.  Count Dooku is introduced when we have the creation of the CIS and the beginning of the Clone Wars.  Asajj is introduced as the war begins to pick up pace and spread throughout the Galaxy.  Grievous is introduced at a time when it seems the Separatists are gaining momentum and Anakin is being knighted.  Now this doesn't work as well as the fighter analogy since all of these characters are introduced before we even see the first arc-170s or even clone headhunters, and before everything that happens in the 2008 cartoon.  In my mind, to make continuity work, the whole 3D series has to occur during the montage in the 2003 cartoon that occurs after Anakin is knighted.  From that perspective I have only seen 1 or 2 continuity errors between the 2 shows.

Somebody also said somewhere that they didn't want regional forces to be included because the name of the war is 'Clone Wars'.  But . . . every medium we have seen, the movies, both shows, have displayed regional troops fighting in large numbers.  I mean, maybe just making them spawning on the ground to help whichever side they are supposed to be aligned with, but these regional troops played a huge part in the war.  Just to name a few, the Clone Wars has shown us Calamari, Quarren, Gungans, Geonosians, Twi'leks, bounty hunters, Mandalorians, Naboo humans, Umbarans, Dugs, Wookies and the Nelvaar (Spl?) fighting in battles.  But, and lets be honest, who doesn't want to invade Naboo with a Separatist army and mow over an entire army of Gungans?

Personally I would love to see some of the wackier Separatist inventions on the field.  We can likely expect to see some of the same units as from other mods, B1, B2, Droideka's, CIS tanks, crab droids, vulture droids, and hyena bombers.  But I want to see those cloaking, bomb-planting droids from the 2003 cartoon that attacked Ilum, or the Quarren mega-cannon, but especially the rare tank dubbed the 'de-foliator' which started off as a one off tank, but then reappeared in another episode of the 2008 show. The Separatist's love for mega-weapons and wacky ideas is what I like best about them.

The Republic does not get as wacky with its ground troops usually.  We have standard Clones, walkers, artillery, etc.  At least in film that is, I haven't read any EU books or comics for the clone wars era.  The space fleet is the best part about the Republic forces I think.  Lots of versatile fighters, a variety of evolving capital and support ships including older Republic ships, Pelta class and whatever regional ships they felt they had to press into service, like the bucket of bolts they gave Anakin in the 2008 show.

[t78]

From what I can gather, the CIS has no ships smaller than heavy cruisers (the star frigate is actually quite large). No corvettes or frigates, and no anti-starfighter capability. Even the Pursuit Class Enforcement ship is just a gunship.

This creates an opportunity to make the CIS really different. Lot's of fighter swarms to deal with fighters and alot of heavy craft, but a very top-heavy space force. A nice contrast to the variety of the IR and NR from ICW.

Of course, there are the wacky elements to the CIS, as stated above. Perhaps some [limited pop-cap] massive aerial proto-dekas? (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Protodeka) Could vulture droids transform into walkers?

Aside from STAPs and aerial units, the CIS seems to be missing fast ground units. Even their fighter tank (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ground_Armored_Tank) seems to have been rare and ineffective. Of course, they do have alot of aerial units and slow heavy tanks.

Thus the CIS could be a weird military with glaring weaknesses but also great strengths.



Which brings us to the question- how is the Republic different from the factions in ICW? Might they be somewhat limited in a certain unit type? Unlike the NR and IR, they'd have few capital ship classes, but they would be very good from the outset- venator, victory, and dreadnought heavy cruiser. Might clone task forces be very small but very capable? What would make for a different playing experience compared to the IR of ICW? Obviously they ARE a proto-empire... but the team might not want to make them too much like that. 

Both sides seem to have a varied infantry line-up, so that might make them different from the regular infantry/elite set-up of ICW.

What do you all think?

[Illidan Stormrage]

In the star wars the clone wars 4th season we see the slaver planet have a bunch of old republic and pirate ships.
freeze around 1:11 or 1:12

[WarlordOfWildSpace]

Thus the CIS could be a weird military with glaring weaknesses but also great strengths.

What I find interesting, is that in most depictions of the CIS vs the clone army, the clone army can barely hold its own.  Most of the successes of the clone army were the result of the heroic actions of either Jedi or veteran Clone commandos.  Heroes should thus be one of the most important elements in the Republic army, while the CIS army should appear in large numbers and, despite terrible aim, should be very difficult to stop without brilliant tactics or heroes.  The biggest weakness of the CIS army and even navy, was not that they couldn't stand up to clones or deploy proper tactics, Grievous' terror and hit and fade campaigns were hugely successful, but that most of their heroes could not stand up to the Republic heroes, and the Republic was forced to adopt very unconventional tactics that often surprised the Confederacy.

Which brings us to the question- how is the Republic different from the factions in ICW? Might they be somewhat limited in a certain unit type? Unlike the NR and IR, they'd have few capital ship classes, but they would be very good from the outset- venator, victory, and dreadnought heavy cruiser. Might clone task forces be very small but very capable? What would make for a different playing experience compared to the IR of ICW? Obviously they ARE a proto-empire... but the team might not want to make them too much like that. 

Both sides seem to have a varied infantry line-up, so that might make them different from the regular infantry/elite set-up of ICW.

What do you all think?

The Republic army is, essentially, a lead up to the Imperial army, same with the navy.  Biggest difference is the sheer number of Jedi and the bolstering of their army by local forces of varied kinds.  The Republic, visually, is meant to look like it will become the bad guys, but are currently the good guys.  Its probably why lucasfilm had most of their fighters look like precursors to the Rebel fighters instead of precursors to TIEs, and why they have a vibrant colour scheme that often includes red, orange and blue, colours we have seen many times with the rebels.  At the same time, the look of clone armour, capital ships and walkers gives that direct link to the army of the Empire.

A couple of things I would love to see for the Republic would be; 1: The ability to construct orbital medical stations that could occasionally spawn clone units, representing Republic attention to medical care, or provide a moral boost as the clone forces know that injuries will be treated.  2: The inclusion of more Jedi as small bands of a couple Jedi, with a padawan or two and maybe a couple troopers or an R2 unit.  Lots of Jedi existed in the EU, thousands, and many died at the hands of the Separatists even before Order 66.  3: The amalgamation of certain heroes into groups, like is done in ICW with Han Solo and Chewbaca.  There are a ridiculous number of heroes in the Clone Wars era, and you do not want the entire upper corner of the screen filled with hero portraits.  An example of this would be putting Obi-Wan and Padawan Anakin together in an early GC, and later having Obi-Wan, Anakin, R2-D2 and possibly even Ahsoka in the same unit.  Or, if you want to split the two of them up, have Obi-Wan with Cody and maybe Rondo, the Red Arc trooper from the 2003 series, while Anakin could spawn with R2 and Rex, maybe adding Ahsoka if the mod makers want to use her.


Edit: Quote from Wookiepedia at the end of a long evaluation of legends material. "Thus is it is most likely that the Grand Army was combination of clones, draftees, and troops from local planetary armies."

[GreyStar]

It's Fordo, not Rondo. But I would much rather have the Munnilist 10 in then Ashoka, or CW Ventress... Or even Maul. Heck I could go through the list of Clone Wars material I've played and enjoyed and find the Clones I like.

[Bucman55]

I would much rather have the Munnilist 10 in then Ashoka...

Season 1&2 Ahsoka is not great I'll grant, but she is much better in 3-5. Besides the Muunilinst 10 didn't actually do much past Muunilinst. Hypori is the last recorded battle the group as a whole participated in. Fordo would not be a bad option though.

[GreyStar]

Season 1&2 Ahsoka is not great I'll grant, but she is much better in 3-5. Besides the Muunilinst 10 didn't actually do much past Muunilinst. Hypori is the last recorded battle the group as a whole participated in. Fordo would not be a bad option though.

Still would like them in mostly as fan service, but they are pretty much only that. Just a superior ARC Commando Squad.

So I've been thinking and the only Clone heroes I can think of, Delta Squad (obious), Fordo / Munnilist 10, Rex (I kinda think he was good from my bad memory of the Clone Wars), Cody (because of his one scene in the original shorts, trolling Kenobi with the jet pack), and the anonymous Five Oh First soldier that's the protagonist of BF2.