First Time and Ships Geek

[HobbesHurlbut]

Hello, I got gifted with Empire At War Gold Pack a couple weeks ago. I have been watching Thrawn's Revenge mod on Youtube for a fair bit before that. I have the mod and been playing a good bit

Now to my main goal of this post. I want to discuss ships, their variants (there are a few things like Carrack having two varaints; one which is presented in the mod with the ion cannons and the other version has laser cannons in place of Ion cannons but is not presented in the mod at the present) and suggesting them for the mod if they haven't been suggested or explained already.

[Octavian Krieger]

Another Carrack does seem pretty good, if you use them. But wouldn't a laser cannon Carrack make the Lancer useless?

[tlmiller]

Another Carrack does seem pretty good, if you use them. But wouldn't a laser cannon Carrack make the Lancer useless?

Maybe not USELESS, but definitely would make the Carrack less useful in combat against capital ships while making the lancer less useful overall.  IMO, it would be an overall less useful fleet, and I wouldn't be surprsied if that's why the team decided to simply use a single carrack, and chose the one that's extremely good value for stripping down the shields of the annoying space whales.

[Octavian Krieger]

My best joke fleets are 20 Carracks and 20 Lancers, god is it a slaughter for my foes.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Another Carrack does seem pretty good, if you use them. But wouldn't a laser cannon Carrack make the Lancer useless?

I can chimes in on that one. The "anti starfighter" version is simply 20 laser cannons. While your Lancer has 20 QUAD laser cannons. 20 vs 80 for "barrels" number. In fluff, the Carrack is mentioned as having served as fast-attack escorts for bigger ships like Dreadnought cruisers during the Clone Wars.


The in-game mod loadout for the lancer is something like 20/4 quad laser cannons. I don't know the mod that well enough so I could interpret that as having 20 batteries of 4 quad laser cannons each or 4 batteries of 5 quad laser cannons each. The loadout of both variants of Carrack simply swaps out the weapon type. 20 ion cannons for 20 laser cannons. So a mod loadout for 'anti-starfighter' variant would keep the same number of 'guns' which would look like this; 20/4 Laser Cannon in place of the 20/4 Ion Cannon. So you would be giving up the shield stripping firepower for a modest anti-starfighter defense that would add up when you group more than one of the Carrack. For comparison, the Assault Frigate has 20/2 Quad Laser Cannon.

[hesterj]

My best joke fleets are 20 Carracks and 20 Lancers, god is it a slaughter for my foes.

I think I'm going to give this a shot (or something close to it) with greater maldrood, I keep wiping out the fleets of the enemy with my bellator and crimson commands, but if you only limit yourself to starting cap ships and then lancers and carracks from then on it could be a bit more challenging!!   

[HobbesHurlbut]

Dreadnought is another example. It seems the original configuration had 20 quad laser cannon and 10 laser cannons. This probably would be the Katana Type considering that the Imperial Refit configuration has no ion cannons and added space for one TIE squadron along with both laser type being changed to quad turbolaser and turbolaser cannon/batteries.

Which mean Katana Type/Original Type loadout would consist only of 20 quad laser cannon, 10 laser cannon, 10 turbolaser cannon/batteries, and Ion Cannons along with no squadron. That would make for a better balancing factor than limiting them during the specific event. Overall it is weaker than the Imperial refit except for the Ion Cannon batteries.

[Corey]

Now to my main goal of this post. I want to discuss ships, their variants (there are a few things like Carrack having two varaints; one which is presented in the mod with the ion cannons and the other version has laser cannons in place of Ion cannons but is not presented in the mod at the present) and suggesting them for the mod if they haven't been suggested or explained already.

If a ship has two loadouts, we typically stick to one for a few reasons. Primarily, there's usually already other ships in the role that second configuration fills, which would make either the variant or the other ship in that role somewhat redundant. This is particularly problematic when build bars are as full as they are. In these situations, it's almost always better to go with the other ship than the variant. For one thing, it lets us represent more ship classes in the mod without making them irrelevant. For another, it makes the game more readable; you can till immediately the difference between a Lancer and a Carrack, but you have to hover over or wait until they fire to tell the difference between a Carrack using ion cannons and one using anti-fighter lasers. With that variant of the Carrack in particular, that's a role that's already difficult enough to distribute; there's a ton of anti-fighter options we can go with for any given Imperial faction before having to resort to the Carrack.

Dreadnought is another example. It seems the original configuration had 20 quad laser cannon and 10 laser cannons. This probably would be the Katana Type considering that the Imperial Refit configuration has no ion cannons and added space for one TIE squadron along with both laser type being changed to quad turbolaser and turbolaser cannon/batteries.

Which mean Katana Type/Original Type loadout would consist only of 20 quad laser cannon, 10 laser cannon, 10 turbolaser cannon/batteries, and Ion Cannons along with no squadron. That would make for a better balancing factor than limiting them during the specific event. Overall it is weaker than the Imperial refit except for the Ion Cannon batteries.

The Katana mission isn't being used as a balancing mechanism, it's being used as a way to have to do something unique in order to get something unique. We don't wanna decrease that reward's value.

[HobbesHurlbut]

If a ship has two loadouts, we typically stick to one for a few reasons. Primarily, there's usually already other ships in the role that second configuration fills, which would make either the variant or the other ship in that role somewhat redundant. This is particularly problematic when build bars are as full as they are. In these situations, it's almost always better to go with the other ship than the variant. For one thing, it lets us represent more ship classes in the mod without making them irrelevant. For another, it makes the game more readable; you can till immediately the difference between a Lancer and a Carrack, but you have to hover over or wait until they fire to tell the difference between a Carrack using ion cannons and one using anti-fighter lasers. With that variant of the Carrack in particular, that's a role that's already difficult enough to distribute; there's a ton of anti-fighter options we can go with for any given Imperial faction before having to resort to the Carrack.

The Katana mission isn't being used as a balancing mechanism, it's being used as a way to have to do something unique in order to get something unique. We don't wanna decrease that reward's value.

Is this also why Venator doesn't have her laser cannon batteries? Again, like Carrack, these are single cannons, not dual or quad. The source for the Carrack's antistarfighter variant is Starships of the Galaxy Saga Edition though. If I had to choose one of the 2 Carrack variants, I would pick the one that fit the best with the fluff describing them being used as fast-attack escorts for bigger ships.


Looking at the Dreadnought. Katana Configuration seems to be all about slave circuitry for cutting down crew requirement and other aspects of the Dreadnought were left alone. So what I'm saying here is that there's a good argument for the Ion Cannons being exclusive to Katana Type showing the original configuration which also had laser cannons for shield stripping and starfighter defense, and the 'regular' Dreadnought is representing the Imperial Refit which is where the Ion Cannons are dropped and laser cannons upgraded to turbolasers for greater firepower in ship to ship combat.

When the event shows up, the Katana Type would be still unique in that it has ion cannons as well having laser cannons in exchange for having less turbolaser firepower over the current Dreadnought.

[Corey]

Is this also why Venator doesn't have her laser cannon batteries?

No, this was because we intend to use the point-defense ability for the Venator's point-defense cannons instead of making them actual hardpoints.

The source for the Carrack's antistarfighter variant is Starships of the Galaxy Saga Edition though. If I had to choose one of the 2 Carrack variants, I would pick the one that fit the best with the fluff describing them being used as fast-attack escorts for bigger ships.

If by that you mean the anti-fighter version, that decision isn't just made just taking into account the Carrack itself; again, anti-fighter options for the Empire are a dime a dozen, but the Carrack in the ion-boat mode is pretty much unique, and doesn't edge out the Lancer or other similar ships.

[HobbesHurlbut]

No, this was because we intend to use the point-defense ability for the Venator's point-defense cannons instead of making them actual hardpoints.

If by that you mean the anti-fighter version, that decision isn't just made just taking into account the Carrack itself; again, anti-fighter options for the Empire are a dime a dozen, but the Carrack in the ion-boat mode is pretty much unique, and doesn't edge out the Lancer or other similar ships.

Actually, if you go by the original loadout for the Dreadnought (I.E. Clone Wars original configuration, before Imperial Refit) then the Ion Cannon on Carrack help more than bringing a mere 20 laser cannons on top of the laser batteries carried by Dreadnought.

[Helix345]

I'm just gonna put in my two cents and say that it took me long enough to figure out what ship was good for what, I don't really want a bunch of ships that look the same but have different weapons, that would just confuse me and it would edge out other ships that can take the role. I like seeing a diverse fleet, but diverse fleets would be pointless if 3 ships fill all of the needed roles.

[kucsidave]

Let me add that there are also complaints already about the ISD I, ISD II and the Tector that they look exactly the same and people can't tell the difference unless they hower the mouse over the ship(can rule out the Tector) and then a hardpoint to fully differentiate the ship.

[HobbesHurlbut]

I'm just gonna put in my two cents and say that it took me long enough to figure out what ship was good for what, I don't really want a bunch of ships that look the same but have different weapons, that would just confuse me and it would edge out other ships that can take the role. I like seeing a diverse fleet, but diverse fleets would be pointless if 3 ships fill all of the needed roles.

Like Carrack whose version only mount 20 SINGLE laser cannons in place of 20 ion cannons? Or the Dreadnought 'original loadout' (which might be applicable to katana Type) having no fighters (a later refit feature), probably like 10 turbolasers, 20 quad lasers and 10 laser cannons on top of Ion Cannons? This configuration resembles Assault Frigate weapon loadout: just remove 6 turbolasers, 6 laser cannons, her squadron, and add ion cannons. It would interest me to see this for Katana type Dreadnought.

[Corey]

We will likely bring the Katana's loadout in line with the OR's version, however we again don't think there's a point in making that separately buildable, for the same reason as the laser-using version of the Carrack.

[HobbesHurlbut]

We will likely bring the Katana's loadout in line with the OR's version, however we again don't think there's a point in making that separately buildable, for the same reason as the laser-using version of the Carrack.

I get that. Though I look forward to the Katana tweak. Should be interesting to see it being more of a support ship/2nd line warship with the Ion Cannons and the laser batteries.

[the_trots]

The Carrack is a brilliant ship.  A couple Carracks can drop shields like a boss.  Very useful against powerful Mon Cal shields.  Turning it into the Assault Frigate would be a loss.

The Assault Frigate struggles in a slugfest with anything bigger than a Corvette.  Good against fighters but the NR already has the best Corvette in the game so that is an unnecessary ability. 

[Helix345]

Good against fighters but the NR already has the best Corvette in the game so that is an unnecessary ability. 

Excuse me, I believe you forgot about a corvette that begins with a capital "I" and ends with a capital "V"

[DarthRevansRevenge]

really? IPV-I is the best? didn't know that.

in your face CR-90

[Helix345]

If you get about 4 IPVs and use their power to weapons ability they'll basically eliminate a swarm of any faction's fighters in about 15 seconds, along with any enemy corvettes and other lightly shielded ships.