Isard, why is she so... (X-Wing series spoilers), ship strength, and stormies.

[turtle225]

SPOILER WARNING: This post contains spoilers for the first four books of the X-Wing series.

So I just finished the fourth book of the X-Wing series and Isard's lack of strength bothered me throughout the whole book. Why is she so weak? Her entire fleet was the Lusankya, two Star Destroyer II's and a Victory and that was it. Was she not the defacto leader of the entire empire? Surely the rest of the imperial fleet couldn't have been that occupied that she couldn't have called in some help. The book made a big deal about her loaning a interdictor from one of the warlords (Teradoc iirc). Did she really not have an interdictor lying around she could have used? Clearly not but it just really had me confused. The book portrays her no better than a warlord herself.

My next question would be that of ship strength. Throughout the entire series we see the Rouges surviving all sort of disaster, which is fine because of course they are some of the best pilots and they have plot armor on their side. But I think a negative side effect of their exploits is that it makes it seem like X-Wings trump all. 12 X-Wings and some random Alderaan Frigate can beat a victory star destroyer. The battle for the Lusankya is admittedly a lot more involved, but still it seems like the Lusankya was a lot weaker than it should have been. Proton torpedos seem to be able to beat everything which makes me wonder why they aren't standard issue on large ships. Ik the book is about a group of fighter pilots, but it seriously gives off the impression that fighters are the end all be all and that they can just swat down giant ships with a salvo of torpedos.

My last rant is about stormtroopers. The books (including Zahn here) always talk about how scary storm troopers are but they almost always suck in every instance they are ever portrayed. To be fair the movies set a pretty low bar for them. But I'm tired of being told how elite and strong they are and then watching them be so laughably bad. Corran should never even have survived book one but some stormtrooper stands over him in the middle of a battle to have a chat instead of just finishing him off so that he can be cheesily shot and Corran can be saved. The only time I've ever seen stromies do well is in a select few of Zahn's works where they actually do so well that I could actually believe in the reputation they are supposed to have.

So yea, I guess those are just some thoughts swirling through my head right now. Feel free to comment on any of these topics.

[tlmiller]

Yup, plot bunnies is a bitch, and have ruined many an otherwise good book.

[Lord Xizer]

Alright, I shall address each of these.

Isard WAS the leader(behind the scenes at least) of the Empire, however a majority of power still resided with the Moffs and military. When she gave up Imperial Center the Moffs seized control and the military(which hated her anyway) refused to serve her. She basically becomes a Warlord at Thyferra, which is why she has to beg and borrow ships.

This also helped fragment the Empire further as with central authority more or less gone dozens more commanders to go rogue or defect.

As to the Rogues survival remember Isard wanted them to take Coruscant and therefore made many "attempts" on their lives just to convince them she was trying to kill them.

With the Rogues killing Convarion they also had Chir Daki two lek fighters, the war cruiser and the effects of light asteroids straining the shields of the Vic. Finally multiple focused proton torps will collapse a Vic shield. Then all wedge had to do was take out bridge. This was all possible because Convarion didn't expect heavy resistance and also had green pilots. Finally they only took out the vic's control causing it to drive into the graveyard. Most of the Vic was functional til it was ground up.

For the stormtroopers remember while they are elite the rogues are expert commandos too on par with a seal team.  Think about it, in the ENTIRE NR, they are the 12 best at what they do, stormyroopers are good, in fact they do nearly kill the rogues and do hurt them badly. They are very threatening in the books.

[Pali]

Xizer mostly nailed it, but to add to a couple of his points...

Regarding Isard - after fleeing Coruscant, nearly the entire Empire stopped listening to her because she gave up the capital.  I doubt she was ever liked by most of the Imperial elite, so many of them were probably just waiting for an excuse to pull support from her.

The X-Wing books do a fine job of consistently showing that the power of the proton torps is limited heavily by how many impact at once.  The Rogues, being elite pilots, are fantastic at managing a simultaneous squadron-wide launch of torps that will hit their target at almost the same time and largely the same location (note they are using targeting data from only one fighter), majorly overstressing the shields at the point of impact.  Hit a Vic with 24 torps at once, in mostly one spot, and its shields will overload trying to disperse the energy - hit a Vic with 24 torps over 24 seconds, and it will probably shrug them off with little trouble.  This is the weakness of torps - they do more damage than any single laser blast, but you can fire lasers so long as you have energy, whereas with torps you are limited by how many you can carry, and their effectiveness drops immensely if you can't land mass barrages. 

Consider that the Rogues were losing the Lusankya battle until the Virulence showed up.  They had soundly won the fighter battle, but they were out of missiles, their freighters were getting cut to pieces by Lusankya, the Freedom was critically damaged... all they had left would be fighter strafing runs, which would stop being of any use once Lusankya got its shields recharged (the shields are stated to be down, but nobody ever says the generators were damaged/destroyed).  Drysso wasn't being arrogant when he told his crew they had won - he was right.  It took the miracle of the Virulence showing up full of three fresh squads of A-wings to change that.  Even after the Virulence shows up and drops a few broadsides into the unshielded Lusankya while A-Wings drop dozens more concussion missiles on unshielded hull (meanwhile the War Cruiser is firing right up the engines, so its shots are bypassing armor and doing direct damage to the ship's internals), the ship survives the battle in good enough shape to be secretly rebuilt within two years.

Also, the Corran/stormtrooper scene wasn't during a battle in the traditional sense.  Corran was literally the only person shooting at the stormtroopers at this point, and one of them finally hit him with a shot.  The stormtrooper said one quick gloating line to Corran while he was raising his weapon to fire, then he paused because Corran held up an explosive in what was supposed to be a dead-man grip, showing the stormie it would explode if he shot Corran.  The stormie quickly realized Corran was holding it wrong, said so, and then was about to shoot.  This is two sentences that make contextual sense, given the general light-hearted nature of the X-wing books.

The X-Wing books are like the summer blockbuster of the EU - they are fun, with plenty of action, memorable characters, and the occasional one-liner, but if you spend too long picking them apart for little issues (which are indeed there) you'll miss out on the good times they're offering.  They're candy, not vegetables.

[Lord Xizer]

Plot bunny wise the X wing series isn't anywhere near as infamous as Darksaber, Jedi Academy trilogy, and notable others...

[turtle225]

Thanks for giving me some feedback. Your replies have made me feel better and helped me understand things more. Sadly the books don't explain Isard's strength that well. They do a good job with her character just not with the context. I would have liked at least a little bit of context as to the state of the empire during book four. Isard seems to be in control of the empire for the first three books and then she just becomes a warlord without any real explanation why. Sure I guess it isn't too difficult for the reader to make the inferences as to why she lost so much strength, but it would have been nice to be told flat out. Thanks for clearing this up for me.

As for the Rogues beating larger ships, I agree that they do a good job of explaining how they are able to do it. Not gonna lie though, a lot of my understanding for ship strength is coming for TR haha. I realize that this is a bit silly and so I have to stop myself from using mod logic in these battles. As I read through these battles, a part of me can't help but map the scene as if it were happening in TR.

For the stormtroopers remember while they are elite the rogues are expert commandos too on par with a seal team.  Think about it, in the ENTIRE NR, they are the 12 best at what they do, stormyroopers are good, in fact they do nearly kill the rogues and do hurt them badly. They are very threatening in the books.

I disagree with your statement that the rogues are expert commandos on par with a seal team. They are trained fighter pilots, not ground commandos. You can see this easily when Gavin nearly gets himself killed immediately in his first ground engagement. The Rouges should more or less be eaten alive by stormies if the stormies are actually threatening like they are supposed to be. Only a few of the rogues have actual ground combat training or experience. I know that they are sent to liberate Coruscant, but of course they do because the books are about them. They are chosen for the mission by the book, not by practicality. To be fair again, they were sent for symbolism and also had the help of Cracken's people, and also because they have a diverse skillset, but I cannot agree that they are expert commandos perfect for such a mission.

Also, the Corran/stormtrooper scene wasn't during a battle in the traditional sense.  Corran was literally the only person shooting at the stormtroopers at this point, and one of them finally hit him with a shot.  The stormtrooper said one quick gloating line to Corran while he was raising his weapon to fire, then he paused because Corran held up an explosive in what was supposed to be a dead-man grip, showing the stormie it would explode if he shot Corran.  The stormie quickly realized Corran was holding it wrong, said so, and then was about to shoot.  This is two sentences that make contextual sense, given the general light-hearted nature of the X-wing books.

Reading this made me realize how much of this scene I had forgotten, particularly the kill switch. I take back my former criticism of this scene as it actually had rhyme and reason instead of just being a silly excuse for a one liner. Though I don't think Corran was the only one shooting. I'm pretty sure Orryl and Riv Shiel were running around offing stormies. So theoretically the one that got Corran should have just popped another shot into him from a decent distance away and gone to help his comrades, comm chatter would let him know there is still a battle continuing elsewhere. Still, the scene wasn't as bad as I originally remembered it and painted it to be, so thanks for clarifying for me.

I've been ranting a lot here but don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed these books and I've got the next three in my hands already. I like Zahn better personally but these are still good.

[Pali]

The Rogues were largely selected with secondary skills in mind, and this is explicitly stated more than once - Gavin's the exception, and is really there because Wedge feels bad about Biggs still and specifically asked for the kid.  I agree they're not SEAL-team level for the most part on those secondary skills, but they're not just pilots by any stretch either.

Ooryl and Shiel were indeed hunting the stormies, but both of them were doing so stealthily (Ooryl was physically strong enough to punch straight through the armor) - Corran pretty much just shoved his way into a room and started shooting.  He was the only one attracting attention, and possibly the only one the still living stormies actually knew was fighting back.

Again - candy, not vegetables. Zahn's a three-course meal.

[Lord Xizer]

I disagree with your statement that the rogues are expert commandos on par with a seal team. They are trained fighter pilots, not ground commandos. You can see this easily when Gavin nearly gets himself killed immediately in his first ground engagement. The Rouges should more or less be eaten alive by stormies if the stormies are actually threatening like they are supposed to be. Only a few of the rogues have actual ground combat training or experience. I know that they are sent to liberate Coruscant, but of course they do because the books are about them. They are chosen for the mission by the book, not by practicality. To be fair again, they were sent for symbolism and also had the help of Cracken's people, and also because they have a diverse skillset, but I cannot agree that they are expert commandos perfect for such a mission.

Wedge, Tycho, Wes, Hobbie, Ooryl, Shiel and Corran all have years of ground combat experience and secondary skills. They've fought and dealt with Stormtroopers, Black Sun criminals and pirates all their lives. They are more than a match for the average stormtrooper, yet they have trouble with them several times in the books. Also one should take into consideration that all Stormtroopers weren't super elites. Many of the ones Isard had on Thyferra were from Lusankya and hadn't seen action in years, regardless of their training. Yet others were THDC(Thyferran Home Defense Corps) Finally in most of the instances where they fight Stormtroopers they have help or the Stormtroopers would have killed them(the extra weapons, the headhunters, Black Sun or the Ashern). Corran had the Force, Ooryl is a Gand Findsman, Shiel used to hunt Stormtroopers, Wes is a sharpshooter at close combat and Tycho, while an Imp pilot would be familiar with Stormtrooper techniques. I would say that while not as adept on the ground as the Wraiths they are still VERY lethal and a match for the average Stormtrooper, though Stormtroopers usually have greater numbers and their training and experience usually make them a grave threat to the Rogues.(You also can't count the Stormies that Krennal had because they were clearly not genuine, but local recruits in Stormtrooper armor.

[Pali]

Peshk Vri'syk was a graduate of the Bothan Martial Academy and Andoorni Hui was a Rodian Huntress, and while not explicitly stated, it is heavily implied that Lujayne Forge had significant mechanical skills regarding starfighter repair and maintenance while also having experience with a criminal community, Kessel, and possible connections through that - it is appropriate that, as the one with the second-least ground combat experience behind Gavin, she was killed the very first time the Rogues meet stormtroopers on the ground while Gavin was also badly wounded directly because of his own inexperience.  Pash Cracken had a family background in intelligence work, in addition to also having been previously an Imperial like Tycho.  Aril Nunb had experience fighting the SoroSuub corporation as a pirate while it was backed by the Empire, meaning she had experience in guerilla tactics and Imperial responses to such activity.

Bror Jace and Erisi Dlarit, now, they were political picks, but they were both still good pilots, with Bror being equal to Corran (at least Corran pre-Force training, we never get to see them matched up again after) and only a notch or so below Wedge and Tycho.

[Revanchist]

As the only Rogue Squadron novel I have is Bacta War (I have more Wraith books, tend to find them more often at the thrift store), I unfortunately cannot weigh in too much on this conversation. However, I agree with the points brought out. Isard lost her status as a threat when she abandoned Coruscant (and then the Moffs, in turn, abandoned her). The only reason she was still considered dangerous was her chokehold on the Bacta supply. Had she not had that, it is quite likely that she would have been completely ignored for some time, especially with Zsinj coming to the fore.

In regards to the ship strengths, I can recall the discussion of tactics that they used against the capital ships was something along the lines of: unload the first volley of torps so they hit at the same time, overloading the shields on that side. The capital would then roll the ship so the fresh shields on the other side could absorb the next attack while the overloaded side was brought back online. If the Rogues couldn't take down that side's shields in the next volley they were done. For example, when they were fighting Convarion the only reason they were able to finish him was because of the Alderaanian warships showing up.

The last part about the battles against Stormtroopers I agree, but a lot of that is because of the plot armor the heroes have in order to make it through. In addition, no matter how good every source says they are, the average fan thinks of them as faceless mooks that get stomped at any and all occasions. Thus they almost always end up becoming that. I personally think the Rogues vs. Stormtroopers encounters should have been much more costly for them, that way it would make more sense as to why the Wraiths were needed (a hybrid commando/pilot team).

[Slornie]

it seems like the Lusankya was a lot weaker than it should have been.

Weren't the X-Wing novels written in the period when the Executor class was described as being only 8km long rather than the now 19km?  That's a sizeable difference in mass (and presumably firepower) to consider in the combat equation right there.

[Revanchist]

Weren't the X-Wing novels written in the period when the Executor class was described as being only 8km long rather than the now 19km?  That's a sizeable difference in mass (and presumably firepower) to consider in the combat equation right there.

Not sure. However, Lusankya did have a portion of its turbolasers replaced with fighter-defense laser cannons as part of attempts to create an SSD that could function independent of a support fleet.

[Pali]

Weren't the X-Wing novels written in the period when the Executor class was described as being only 8km long rather than the now 19km?  That's a sizeable difference in mass (and presumably firepower) to consider in the combat equation right there.

I think you are correct here.

[Lord Xizer]

Not sure. However, Lusankya did have a portion of its turbolasers replaced with fighter-defense laser cannons as part of attempts to create an SSD that could function independent of a support fleet.

That was after the NR captured and refitted her.
There is some odd disparities mind you, like when Iron Fist is forced to flee from two MC80s a marauder cruiser and a Nebulon B with fighter support when it had just plowed through three Impstar deuces  at Kuat without any trouble.
(though this might have been due to the shield sabotage putting Zsinj himself in danger of being killed with a lucky shot
 and fear of NR reinforcements)

[Pali]

He also had numerous support ships with him at Kuat.

[Revanchist]

That was after the NR captured and refitted her.

Interesting. According to Wookieepedia it was built that way.

The Lusankya was designed to be a variant of the Executor-class, focusing more on planetary occupation without a need for supporting vessels. As such, it dispensed with some heavy turbolaser batteries in exchange for more point-defense weaponry.

[Lord Xizer]

Interesting. According to Wookieepedia it was built that way.

Odd choice considering they buried her for six years. I remember that she had trouble shooting down the snubs stinging her at the Battle of Thyferra and I knew that the NR rebuilt her with a lot of anti starfighter quad lasers over mass turbolasers(though she still had a lot of those.)

[Revanchist]

I agree, I did find it somewhat odd as well upon re-reading my X-Wing stuff. Quite possibly an error on the Wook's part

[Slornie]

I don't think it is an error.  I checked Starships of the Galaxy (which is cited on Wookiee as the source for that information), and the text says this:

The Lusankya is the Executor's sister ship, with keel laid and final rivet finished at the same time as Vader's flagship.  By having all expenses for the Lusankya attributed to construction of the Executor, the Empire kept the existence of the second Super Star Destroyer secret from the galaxy at large.  The Lusankya was covered in a superframe of girders and electronics, then lowered onto Coruscant disguised as a massive planetary shield generator and its repulsorlift cradle.  The fact that a Super Star Destroyer was at the heart of the "generator" was kept secret, allowing the Lusankya to serve as a secret prison facility.  Exactly why the Emperor went to such great lengths to hide a Super Star Destroyer is unknown, though it's certainly possible that he intended the ship to serve as an emergency command vehicle, should his throne world ever come under siege.

As events occurred, the Lusankya was used by intelligence officer Ysanne Isard to flee Coruscant after the Emperor's death.  She built a command group around the ship and engaged in such gambits as the Bacta War.  Eventually she was defeated and killed, and the Lusankya entered the service of the New Republic.  For twenty years the ship acted as a medical research and quarantine ship, a research vessel, and the command ship of an extensively built-up Rogue Squadron.  During the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, the Lusankya suffered extensive damage and was stripped of weapons and turned into a suicide weapon to destroy the largest Vong battle-operational worldship.

Capabilities
Though the Lisankya has fewer heavy weapons than a typical Super-class Star Destroyer, it uses the saved space for extensive personnel quarters.  It needs less overall crew and has superior computers (an advantage of constantly receiving computer upgrades while hidden within Coruscant), but can carry more troops and thousands of prisoners.  With the addition of point-defense lasers, the Lusankya is perfectly equipped to single-handedly smash through a planet's defenses and take command of its major cities.  Unlike other Super Star Destroyers, which rely on support shops to some degree, the Lusankya is by itself enough to forge a new, if small, multiplanet government.

Of course, it's easily possible that Starships is "wrong" or has since been superseded by other canon.  It's also unclear whether the capabilities and armament described in the text and tables (see below) relate to it's original Imperial or later New Republic configuration.

And this is the difference in armament quoted in the sourcebook vs Executor:

Weapon	Executor	Lusankya
Heavy turbolaser batteries	25	15
Turbolaser batteries	25	25
Point-defense laser cannon batteries	N/A	25
Heavy ion cannon batteries	25	10
Tractor beam batteries	8	8
Heavy concussion missile batteries	25	10

[Pali]

The Bacta War has Winter describing Lusankya as having the quarter-million crew, which would lend weight to the alterations being post-NR reconstruction, but Winter may simply not have been aware of Lusankya having a special design.  The book is a bit more definitive in showing the Lusankya's guns as being relatively useless against the fighters, though, which does strongly support the post-reconstruction redesign idea, particularly as the ship's vulnerability to mass missile and fighter attack was its downfall in the Battle of Thyrerra.